Religion poll - Harris

[ChicosBailBonds]

Who doesn't love a good public massacre now and again?

My grandparents, who are no longer with us, lived through a civil war (Irish, not American), Great Depression, two world wars, the Jim Crow era, the Holocaust and communism (the latter two as distant and mostly unaffected observers only, thank goodness).
I'm sure they could tell us all about civility and the treatment of humanity decades ago.

True, of course wars are gone today, tough economic times all in the past, etc, etc.


I'm talking about in general how people treated each other, you're focusing on the macro events.  I'd invite you to have breakfast or lunch with some Vets each Memorial Day as my wife and I do.  Just listen to their stories, listen to how times have changed and how frustrated some of them are about what they did to fight for this country and how SOME things turned out  (not all, some).   

The days when you could leave your front door unlocked.  The days when the kids could go out to play and come back at 9:00pm and you wouldn't even think twice about them being down the street or 3 blocks away.  The days when they could walk to school by themselves and not worry about being abducted.  The days where the worst trouble they could get into was sipping a 3/2 beer.....drugs almost unheard of.   The days when divorce was rare, the family unit existed, etc

Yes, we have progressed nicely....but I tip my hat to you on the Jim Crow law reference.  That's 100% guaranteed to be thrown in (or something of similar stature) whenever someone says there were ASPECTS of life that were better in many ways decades ago...instantly the race card is played.  Like clockwork, as if to shoot down everything else the race card trumps all.  Sorry, not playing that game. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

When my grandparents were growing up, there were no homosexuals.

Sure there were, always has been always will be.  Nothing wrong with that.


Now, when your grandparents were growing up, however, there was less crime, almost no drug use, divorce was rare, out of wedlock kids even rarer, kids weren't "hooking" up at 14, etc, etc.


Some steps forward, some steps back.   I'd argue the roll of church and religion were more firmly entrenched back in the day and the lack of it today has led to many of the steps back.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Sure there were, always has been always will be.  Nothing wrong with that.


Now, when your grandparents were growing up, however, there was less crime, almost no drug use, divorce was rare, out of wedlock kids even rarer, kids weren't "hooking" up at 14, etc, etc.


Some steps forward, some steps back.   I'd argue the roll of church and religion were more firmly entrenched back in the day and the lack of it today has led to many of the steps back.

Oh come on.

Do we know kids weren't "hooking up"? Where's that study? How can we possibly know that? I know that sexuality is a little more outspoken now, but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening back then. Just like being gay isn't something that just started last year.

I agree with you that certain things were better "back in the day", but let's not use hyperbole and Norman Rockwell paintings as history books.

Also, yes, the race card does trump everything. I mean, Jesus Christ, we are only 1 generation (approx) removed from "separate but equal". That's f-ing insane. We treated some of our own citizens as second class people. It was a law. That's criminal.

[GGGG]

True, of course wars are gone today, tough economic times all in the past, etc, etc.


I'm talking about in general how people treated each other, you're focusing on the macro events.  I'd invite you to have breakfast or lunch with some Vets each Memorial Day as my wife and I do.  Just listen to their stories, listen to how times have changed and how frustrated some of them are about what they did to fight for this country and how SOME things turned out  (not all, some).   

The days when you could leave your front door unlocked.  The days when the kids could go out to play and come back at 9:00pm and you wouldn't even think twice about them being down the street or 3 blocks away.  The days when they could walk to school by themselves and not worry about being abducted.  The days where the worst trouble they could get into was sipping a 3/2 beer.....drugs almost unheard of.   The days when divorce was rare, the family unit existed, etc

Yes, we have progressed nicely....but I tip my hat to you on the Jim Crow law reference.  That's 100% guaranteed to be thrown in (or something of similar stature) whenever someone says there were ASPECTS of life that were better in many ways decades ago...instantly the race card is played.  Like clockwork, as if to shoot down everything else the race card trumps all.  Sorry, not playing that game. 

"Leave it to Chicos"

The world when everything was hunky-dory and racial issues were marginalized.

[Hards Alumni]

Sure there were, always has been always will be.  Nothing wrong with that.


Now, when your grandparents were growing up, however, there was less crime, almost no drug use, divorce was rare, out of wedlock kids even rarer, kids weren't "hooking" up at 14, etc, etc.


Some steps forward, some steps back.   I'd argue the roll of church and religion were more firmly entrenched back in the day and the lack of it today has led to many of the steps back.

my grandparents grew up in the 30s and 40s.  There was the great depression.  Also, how often were people just let off the hook back then?  "Boys will be boys" doesn't exist anymore.  Drug use was low because it was LEGAL.  Divorce rate was rare because women were DEPENDENT on men for money and safety.  Children out of wedlock happened, but it wasn't televised for obvious reasons.

I mean keep the blinders on Chicos if you think the past was peachy keen neato!

[Skatastrophy]

[Coleman]

I actually don't see why this should be locked. Its not overtly political. We are being civil. I think Chico's is dead wrong here but no one is using personal attacks. Its good discussion.

The early 20th century was littered with gambling, prostitution, kidnappings, murder by organized crime.Walk around Chicago, you can see the brothels still standing. They have all been converted to legitimate restaurants or bars, but a lot of the artwork of girls remains. Its actually pretty interesting.

The Great Depression was brought on by stock speculation of people with questionable character. Most selfishly trying to make the quickest buck they could.

The treatment of women was condescending and chauvinist. Women who were harassed in the workplace had no recourse. They just had to shut up and deal with, it or lose their job. There were no divorces because women couldn't support themselves on their own, and often had 4+ kids to deal with.

Wealthy families had to install iron bars on the windows of their sons, in fear their children would be kidnapped. Look at the Lindbergh baby. The doors unlocked thing is a myth. Burglaries and kidnappings were just as common back then. Bank robberies probably more common.

I'm not saying all of this is gone. This stuff still happens. But its absurd to say that everything was hunky dory when people went to church.

[tower912]

Teenagers have been having sex as long as there has been teenagers and sex.   Witness Bundling and 16 year old's marrying.    Things weren't better.   They were covered up, repressed, and held down.    Would you rather have been a female or an african-american a century ago?    Would you rather have had working conditions now considered analagous with third world countries?   Is it better to cover up for pedophile priests and move them to different congregations or is it better to publicly deal with the problem?  Yeah, medicare is bankrupting the country... because it has been so successful.    People didn't used to live 20 years after retirement.  Or survive cancer.   Or their first two heart attacks.   Religion has diminished because of the proliferations of denominations.    Why go to church when every different one is convinced their's is the only way to salvation and they are fighting holy wars based on minutiae?    Yes, the world today is a highly fractured and fractious place.    Because there are so many options and so little central authority.  

[Henry Sugar]

When my grandparents were growing up, kids did not have premarital sex.

[Benny B]

Far be it out of character for me to defend Chicos here, but you guys are missing the point.

Granted, there have been murders, bank robbers, racists, etc. going back to the early days of our country.  Is crime any more or less prevalent today than yesteryear?  Adjusting for population and other variables, probably not of any significance.

I don't like to use the word 'tolerance' here because of the political connotations it carries, but while incivility (be that criminal activity, aggression/oppression, etc.) might be better or worse overall these days, the tolerance of such is mind-numbingly astronomical compared to a few decades ago.

But society has been preaching "tolerance" (using it here in the political sense) for quite some time now.  Tolerance of people's life choices, their race/creed/religion/ethnicity, etc. are good things, but are we supposed to tolerate incivility too?  The P.C. crowd doesn't want people to judge for themselves what they should or should not tolerate (that would defeat the purpose), so the blanket command is to just tolerate everything.

The more you tolerate, the less you deter.  Accordingly, the tolerance of incivility (back to the non-political sense) has led to its spread being disproportionate to its growth.  Historically, incivility existed mostly in pockets... e.g. the Nazis were mostly in Germany, the segregationists were mostly in the south, the murderers were mostly in the bad neighborhoods, the casinos were mostly in Las Vegas, and corrupt politicians were mostly in Illinois.  Now, it's everywhere.  It may not have increased, but there are fewer places to feel "safe."

Most religions' preach a message that also acts a deterrent to incivility (granted, some blaspheme by acting uncivil in the name of their religion, and there are always a few people who miss the point of the message -- see the inevitable responses to this post as an example -- that doesn't necessarily mean that religion or its message is bad).  Anyhoo, I don't want to speak for Chicos, but his question about whether the decline in religion has also led to the tolerance and spread of incivility is certainly valid given the above context.

[tower912]

To which I say, the decline of religion was inevitable (A) after the protestant reformation, (B) as the enlightenment and science expanded, (C) when people began to have more choices including the choice to publicly not believe.

[Lennys Tap]

I'm talking about in general how people treated each other, you're focusing on the macro events.  I'd invite you to have breakfast or lunch with some Vets each Memorial Day as my wife and I do.  Just listen to their stories, listen to how times have changed and how frustrated some of them are about what they did to fight for this country and how SOME things turned out  (not all, some). 

 

Old people romanticize the past while railing against a present that's passed them by. Middle aged folks worry about what's wrong with the kids. Young people wonder what the fuss is all about. Nothing new in any of that. Meanwhile, people and knowedge keep evolving. Less ignorance = less fear = less bigotry = more tolerance. It happens slowly and there are retracements along the way (the intolerance today in academia for conservatism, for example), but as the world turns it's definitely getting better.

[Benny B]

To which I say, the decline of religion was inevitable (A) after the protestant reformation, (B) as the enlightenment and science expanded, (C) when people began to have more choices including the choice to publicly not believe.

To which I respond that considering nearly 100% of the world believed in some sort of higher being at one point in time, the inevitability of the decline of religion was, itself, inevitable.

Kidding aside,  With 'A' -- I have a tough time reconciling that with the fact that Islam (another "reformed" religion of sorts) is rapidly growing even today.  I certainly agree with 'B', but as far as 'C' - in sticking with my theme here - I would advocate that it's not necessarily that more choices are available, simply that the choices - including the choice of none - are tolerated.  So did the tolerance of choice lead to decline in religion or is it perhaps the opposite?  Perhaps it's just one big downward spiral - unless you're Satanic, which if you are, you're likely a NIN fan and as such, a downward spiral would be a good thing on two levels.  Far out.

[HouWarrior]

Why is religion treated any differently than politics as a lockable/bannable category for mods intervention?

Here, mods began and opened the thread for discussion....IMO, either:
i) reopen political discussions and lift the politics banning/locking, and continue the religion discussions like this here (some interesting points are made) or
 ii)treat a religion discussion the same as politics, with bans and locks to follow.

Each of politics, and religion draw deeply on our personal beliefs, views, and matters for debate....lets let it all in or all out...but be consistent, either way.

I am appreciative of anyone's preferences to the contrary... I'd just like to know what risks locks. or banning...ahead of its occurence.

[Skatastrophy]

Why is religion treated any differently than politics as a lockable/bannable category for mods intervention?

Here, mods began and opened the thread for discussion....IMO, either:
i) reopen political discussions and lift the politics banning/locking, and continue the religion discussions like this here (some interesting points are made) or
 ii)treat a religion discussion the same as politics, with bans and locks to follow.

Each of politics, and religion draw deeply on our personal beliefs, views, and matters for debate....lets let it all in or all out...but be consistent, either way.

I am appreciative of anyone's preferences to the contrary... I'd just like to know what risks locks. or banning...ahead of its occurence.

It's not personal beliefs.  It's idiocy that so many Americans think that a Sky Wizard is responsible for everything, so much so that it's integral to our country's politics.  Friggin scary, imo.

[GGGG]

Why is religion treated any differently than politics as a lockable/bannable category for mods intervention?

I have two ideas....either ignore the thread, or start your own message board.

[HouWarrior]

I have two ideas....either ignore the thread, or start your own message board.

I am very sorry if I offended you. I noted some interesting things were said in this thread....but if you see only these two choices(note- I outlined another--opening both religion and re-opening politics, as fair game), ...I'll ignore thread and shut up further about the inconsistency I noted...no one could start a board better than this one. lol ...and I reiterate my apology...

[GGGG]

You didn't offend me.

[rocky_warrior]

Alright...my thoughts

1) houwarrior - feel free to start a better board.  Honestly, it's somewhat gratifying, but also a pain in the rear some days

2) Yes, it was started by a mod in Feb 2007, before we had a ban on these sorts of things.  Not sure why it got bumped this week by Hards...

3) I've personally let it go this far, because people mostly have stayed respectful and were having a good discussion.  Please try to keep it that way.  Other mods may feel differently though.

Anyhow, carry on, for now...

[Hards Alumni]

I dunno how I even read it.  It was at the top of the list... Since I'm too lazy to sift through old theads.  I was really confused when someone said it was a couole years old.  Possoibly a board glitch?  It was on top for me.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It's not personal beliefs.  It's idiocy that so many Americans think that a Sky Wizard is responsible for everything, so much so that it's integral to our country's politics.  Friggin scary, imo.

Sky wizard...that actually made me chuckle.  .  I believe in God, but don't necessarily think "it" is out there making me team wins, keeping the airplane in the sky or whatever.  Some folks do, and that's fine by me.  If it brings some order to things, some discipline, some respect for humanity, then I don't see the harm.  I'm more agnostic than anything...I think a God exists and too many things too perfectly happened, IMO, to get where we are today.  That being said, could be absolutely nothing and when we die, it goes dark and that's it.

At the end of the day, a lot of us here could be fools and a lot of us here could be wishing they believed.  We'll all find out at some point.

[GGGG]

There are days I believe...days I have my doubts...  Days I go to church and come away feeling great...days I can't wait to get the hell out of there...

I don't think I'm unique.

[Skatastrophy]

Sky wizard...that actually made me chuckle.  .  I believe in God, but don't necessarily think "it" is out there making me team wins, keeping the airplane in the sky or whatever.  Some folks do, and that's fine by me.  If it brings some order to things, some discipline, some respect for humanity, then I don't see the harm.  I'm more agnostic than anything...I think a God exists and too many things too perfectly happened, IMO, to get where we are today.  That being said, could be absolutely nothing and when we die, it goes dark and that's it.

At the end of the day, a lot of us here could be fools and a lot of us here could be wishing they believed.  We'll all find out at some point.

Well said

[rocky_warrior]

We'll all find out at some point.

...unless we don't.

[ChicosBailBonds]

...unless we don't.

Sure we will, unless you plan on living forever.  Either we die and it all goes black and that's it, or we die and something happens.  What's the 3rd option?