Rutgers and ND to B11...so what?

[Canadian Dimes]

Bottom line is many people were concerned about Pitt, Uconn, Syracuse, etc. to the B11.  I could absolutely care less about losing Rutgers they are the Northwestern of the Big East in athletics, only. 

I would also not mind seeing ND leave.  I have long said the BE should give ND the ultimatum of join fully or get out.  Joining the B11 would be the worst thing that school could ever do athletically.  Woman's basketball, Soccer, and all the Olympic sports that ND likes to compete in are abyssmal in the B11.  Additionally I doubt their alumni base in Ny, Boston, Phila, DC, etc would be too happy about it.  Aligning themselves with a farmers conference would be a step down.  I beleive if they turndown the B11 they should have to fully join the BE or leave. 

Give ND the ultimatum and lose Rutgers and the BE is down to 14 teams. Add one football school Maybe MAryland, maybe BC, maybe Umass or Central Florida and you are at 15 if ND leaves or 16 if they join.  Pretty good deal for the BE add a television network and all is good.

Question... if Nebraska and Missouri go to the B11 will the Big 12( formerly the big 8)  now call themselves the Big 10?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Bottom line is many people were concerned about Pitt, Uconn, Syracuse, etc. to the B11.  I could absolutely care less about losing Rutgers they are the Northwestern of the Big East in athletics, only. 

I would also not mind seeing ND leave.  I have long said the BE should give ND the ultimatum of join fully or get out.  Joining the B11 would be the worst thing that school could ever do athletically.  Woman's basketball, Soccer, and all the Olympic sports that ND likes to compete in are abyssmal in the B11.  Additionally I doubt their alumni base in Ny, Boston, Phila, DC, etc would be too happy about it.  Aligning themselves with a farmers conference would be a step down.  I beleive if they turndown the B11 they should have to fully join the BE or leave. 

Give ND the ultimatum and lose Rutgers and the BE is down to 14 teams. Add one football school Maybe MAryland, maybe BC, maybe Umass or Central Florida and you are at 15 if ND leaves or 16 if they join.  Pretty good deal for the BE add a television network and all is good.

Question... if Nebraska and Missouri go to the B11 will the Big 12( formerly the big 8)  now call themselves the Big 10?

Hayward

First, the phrase is "could NOT care less"

Second, your short term thinking is your weakness.  If Rutgers and ND goes, then what happens?  Dominoes.  Sure, the Big East might be able to fill in the gap for football, which is the key.  But if they can't, then what?

What does the SEC do?  Do they feel like they need 14 teams? Do they go after Louisville and West Virginia?  Does the ACC need 14?  Etc, etc

Why on earth would Maryland leave the ACC to come to the Big East?

If the Big Ten goes to 14, look out.  If they only go to 12, everyone can take a collective breath.

[mugrad99]

Woman's basketball, Soccer, and all the Olympic sports that ND likes to compete in are abyssmal in the B11. 

How about these Olympic sports?

Soccer:
1995 Wisconsin (20-4-1)
1996 St. John's (N.Y.) (22-2-2)
1997 UCLA (22-2)
1998 Indiana (23-2)
1999 Indiana (21-3)
2000 Connecticut (20-3-2)
2001 North Carolina (21-4)
2002 UCLA (18-3-3)
2003 Indiana (17-3-5)
2004 Indiana* (18-4-1)
2005 Maryland (19-4-2)
2006 UC Santa Barb. (17-7-1)
2007 Wake Forest (22-2-2)
2008 Maryland (23-3-0)
2009 Virginia* (18-3-4)

Wrestling:
1991 Iowa
1992 Iowa
1993 Iowa
1994 Oklahoma St.
1995 Iowa
1996 Iowa
1997 Iowa
1998 Iowa
1999 Iowa
2000 Iowa
2001 Minnesota
2002 Minnesota
2003 Oklahoma St.
2004 Oklahoma St.
2005 Oklahoma St.
2006 Oklahoma St.
2007 Minnesota
2008 Iowa
2009 Iowa
2010 Iowa

Men's Gymnastics:
1996 Ohio St.
1997 California
1998 California
1999 Michigan
2000 Penn St.
2001 Ohio St.
2002 Oklahoma
2003 Okahoma
2004 Penn St.
2005 Oklahoma
2006 Oklahoma
2007 Penn St.
2008 Oklahoma
2009 Stanford
2010 Michigan

[KipsBayEagle]

Hayward

First, the phrase is "could NOT care less"

Second, your short term thinking is your weakness.  If Rutgers and ND goes, then what happens?  Dominoes.  Sure, the Big East might be able to fill in the gap for football, which is the key.  But if they can't, then what?

What does the SEC do?  Do they feel like they need 14 teams? Do they go after Louisville and West Virginia?  Does the ACC need 14?  Etc, etc

Why on earth would Maryland leave the ACC to come to the Big East?

If the Big Ten goes to 14, look out.  If they only go to 12, everyone can take a collective breath.

I think 14 would be ok, assuming they only go after Rutgers and take mizzou and nebraska also.  The pac 10 wouldn't poach from us, nor the big 12.  The sec already has two divisions, and so does the acc, meaning its not a neccesity for them to add teams.  What is driving expansion for the big ten is the neccesity for a big ten title game, which doesn't work with their current conference.  Since the sec and acc already have a confereence title game, they have no need to add.

[goodgreatgrand]

Bottom line is many people were concerned about Pitt, Uconn, Syracuse, etc. to the B11.  I could absolutely care less about losing Rutgers they are the Northwestern of the Big East in athletics, only. 

I would also not mind seeing ND leave.  I have long said the BE should give ND the ultimatum of join fully or get out.  Joining the B11 would be the worst thing that school could ever do athletically.  Woman's basketball, Soccer, and all the Olympic sports that ND likes to compete in are abyssmal in the B11.  Additionally I doubt their alumni base in Ny, Boston, Phila, DC, etc would be too happy about it.  Aligning themselves with a farmers conference would be a step down.  I beleive if they turndown the B11 they should have to fully join the BE or leave. 

Give ND the ultimatum and lose Rutgers and the BE is down to 14 teams. Add one football school Maybe MAryland, maybe BC, maybe Umass or Central Florida and you are at 15 if ND leaves or 16 if they join.  Pretty good deal for the BE add a television network and all is good.

Question... if Nebraska and Missouri go to the B11 will the Big 12( formerly the big 8)  now call themselves the Big 10?

What a dumb post. You could care less that the BE just lost another football member? ....a member that has been around a hell of a lot longer than most other BE members? I didnt know the BE could afford to lose a football team...

So, what happens if the SEC raids the ACC? What will you say if UConn and Syracuse leave to go to the ACC? "Who cares? Big deal?"

[HoopsMalone]

Marquette, St. John's, DePaul, Georgetown, and Villanova are 5 basketball programs with history that are watching their fates from the sidelines.  We really need Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, and Louisville to hang with us.  If the Big Ten or any conference expand to 14 without taking one of those 4, the five Catholic schools are OK. 

I think that the SEC would be better off poaching the Texas schools, the Pac-10 would be better off poaching Colorado to get a better foot in the Denver market, and the ACC is big enough already.  The Big 12 should be just as worried to be honest with you.

Will adding 16 teams even help those cash flows per school all that much outside of adding Notre Dame?  All the schools now are happy dividing it by 11.  There is a ceiling to these cash flows and dividing them by 16 might not make it work.  The eastern cities are not like the Midwestern cities with a high density of alums from the Big Ten schools.

[muhoops1]

By not acknowledging that Rutgers brings with it the single largest TV market in the US you show your provencial Midwest (or Canadian) mind set.  Rutgers is a big loss because their fan base is Northern New Jersey/New York.  That equals money.  Their football program is relevant AND it is a fine academic institution.

This is bad long term for teams like MU.  Now I hate Notre Dame even more.

[Canadian Dimes]

What a dumb post. You could care less that the BE just lost another football member? ....a member that has been around a hell of a lot longer than most other BE members? I didnt know the BE could afford to lose a football team...

So, what happens if the SEC raids the ACC? What will you say if UConn and Syracuse leave to go to the ACC? "Who cares? Big deal?"

How many B11 fans would really care if Northwestern left the B11.  Please Rutgers is the NW of the B11

[Canadian Dimes]

By not acknowledging that Rutgers brings with it the single largest TV market in the US you show your provencial Midwest (or Canadian) mind set.  Rutgers is a big loss because their fan base is Northern New Jersey/New York.  That equals money.  Their football program is relevant AND it is a fine academic institution.

This is bad long term for teams like MU.  Now I hate Notre Dame even more.

I apologize Mr. Nielson... but that market is already opened with the likes of St. John's , Seton Hall and Villanova.  That comment would be analogous to the B11 being afraid of losing the Chicago market if NW left.  Bunch of Chiken Littles arounf here. 

[goodgreatgrand]

How many B11 fans would really care if Northwestern left the B11.  Please Rutgers is the NW of the B11

Lets see..... B10 has 11 fball teams. BE has 8. Who can least afford to lose a fball school? Since you think Rutgers is so irrelevent, what makes a part-time member like MU so relevent?

[brewcity77]

By not acknowledging that Rutgers brings with it the single largest TV market in the US you show your provencial Midwest (or Canadian) mind set.  Rutgers is a big loss because their fan base is Northern New Jersey/New York.  That equals money.  Their football program is relevant AND it is a fine academic institution.

This is bad long term for teams like MU.  Now I hate Notre Dame even more.

Losing Rutgers as a football program would be a huge blow, especially as they have made significant improvements over the past few years. Having St. John's and Seton Hall is great when it comes to basketball season, but Rutgers and Syracuse are probably the two biggest college football draws in NYC, along possibly with Notre Dame.

If this were to happen, the conference would be in trouble. It would be an absolute must to add UCF immediately, but I honestly think the best bet would be to add at least five football schools to get up to 12 for the conference title game. Maryland and Boston College are obvious targets, but I think the answer is to hit out at the ACC before they do the same to us again.

When all the dominoes fall, it seems that the Big Ten, SEC, and Pac-10 are all likely to survive. So the question is which conferences will be left after that. I would bet it won't be more than 2. If the Big Ten goes to 16, the SEC will probably do the same. Say they add Florida State, Miami, Georgia Tech, and Virginia Tech. That's pretty much the top four football schools in the ACC. We could improve our football and basketball profile by taking a shot at Boston College, Maryland, Duke, North Carolina, and Wake Forest, NC State or whomever else best matches our profile.

The key to this will be poaching from other conferences before they poach from us, because as much as we may not want to see it, we all know it's going to happen.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think 14 would be ok, assuming they only go after Rutgers and take mizzou and nebraska also.  The pac 10 wouldn't poach from us, nor the big 12.  The sec already has two divisions, and so does the acc, meaning its not a neccesity for them to add teams.  What is driving expansion for the big ten is the neccesity for a big ten title game, which doesn't work with their current conference.  Since the sec and acc already have a confereence title game, they have no need to add.

You are forgetting the power of $$$$.  More schools = more alumni = more markets = bigger tv deal = more money.  If the Big Ten goes to 14, you will see other conferences expand.  The question is how many and by how much.

[CTWarrior]

Bottom line is many people were concerned about Pitt, Uconn, Syracuse, etc. to the B11.  I could absolutely care less about losing Rutgers they are the Northwestern of the Big East in athletics, only. 

Give ND the ultimatum and lose Rutgers and the BE is down to 14 teams. Add one football school Maybe MAryland, maybe BC, maybe Umass or Central Florida and you are at 15 if ND leaves or 16 if they join.  Pretty good deal for the BE add a television network and all is good.

There is no way BC or MD comes to the Big East.  If Rutgers goes, we will have to replace them with a football school which probably means Central Florida, unless we wanted to go off the grid and grab a school like Marshall or East Carolina.  I don't know about you, but I'd rather have Rutgers than a selection off of that pu pu platter.  I know Memphis presents all kinds of issues, but if we lose Rutgers and ND, but pick up Memphis and ANYONE, that's a great deal for basketball anyway.

[CTWarrior]

Marquette, St. John's, DePaul, Georgetown, and Villanova are 5 basketball programs with history that are watching their fates from the sidelines.  We really need Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, and Louisville to hang with us.  If the Big Ten or any conference expand to 14 without taking one of those 4, the five Catholic schools are OK. 

There is no reason to expect any of those schools to look out for us.  We don't have a real history with any of them, except for Louisville.  After all, we didn't stop and think too much about Xavier and Loyola etc when we bolted the MCC and we didn't think about Memphis, Charlotte, UAB and Saint Louis when we took off for the Big East.  These schools will do what's best for themselves in the end. 

You are right about one thing, for UConn, Syracuse, Pitt and Louisville, these are merely very interesting times, as they will all land on their feet in a situation at least as good as the one they're in now.  But for the non-football Big East teams, there is a distinct possibility of a huge step backward toward a situation similar to the old CUSA or worse.

[LON]

These scenarios just make me hate college football more and more each day.

[muhoops1]

I apologize Mr. Nielson... but that market is already opened with the likes of St. John's , Seton Hall and Villanova.  That comment would be analogous to the B11 being afraid of losing the Chicago market if NW left.  Bunch of Chiken Littles arounf here.  

Oh there is no need to apologize you obviously don't know any better.  There is no comparison of Chicago as a TV market and New York.  And no similarity of NW to RU.  People from the Midwest always overlook the importance of Rutgers because the basketball team has struggled recently.  The limited success of the football program has rallied everyone in the region.  Go ahead and stick your head in the sand if you want.  Fred Hill was a hump.  The School is not chump change.

[Villacats]

How many B11 fans would really care if Northwestern left the B11.  Please Rutgers is the NW of the B11

Haven't you people heard?? Rutgers has got JERSEY POWER!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vDjwYXaTHo

[GGGG]

Losing Rutgers may not harm the BE in the short term, but if the B10 generates $22M (and possibly growing) and the BE earns $7M from television rights, how long before those income disparities start showing up on the field and on the court?  In 2010, it may not make that much of a difference...but what about 2020 or 2030?

Let's face it, the BE is on the wrong side of the equation right now, and they are almost powerless to stop it.  The short-sighted decision they made in the late 1980s to not admit Penn State as a basketball member, and the subsequent development of an eastern football league with PSU, has been like a tortourous, slow death.

[Litehouse]

Let's face it, the BE is on the wrong side of the equation right now, and they are almost powerless to stop it.  The short-sighted decision they made in the late 1980s to not admit Penn State as a basketball member, and the subsequent development of an eastern football league with PSU, has been like a tortourous, slow death.

That's probably true.  But then MU probably never gets invited to the Big East either.

[Pakuni]

By not acknowledging that Rutgers brings with it the single largest TV market in the US you show your provencial Midwest (or Canadian) mind set.  Rutgers is a big loss because their fan base is Northern New Jersey/New York.  That equals money.  Their football program is relevant AND it is a fine academic institution.

This is bad long term for teams like MU.  Now I hate Notre Dame even more.

I think the whole "Rutgers is in the NY market" thing is vastly, vastly overrated.
New York is not a college sports town, and won't become one if Rutgers heads to the Big Televen (Terteen?). People won't gather 'round their TVs on Staten Island and in Manhattan every Saturday to catch the big Iowa-Minnesota game anymore than Chicagoans pack sports bars to see a Syracuse-Villanova basketball game because DePaul is in the Big East.
I understand the concept of access to the market, etc., but actual viewership counts much more, and I don't see the mere presence of Rutgers in the Big Whatever significantly affecting that.
That said, any school leaving the Big East, especially a football school, probably is bad. But if it's Rutgers, and only Rutgers, it's far from a tragedy.

[KipsBayEagle]

I think the whole "Rutgers is in the NY market" thing is vastly, vastly overrated.
New York is not a college sports town, and won't become one if Rutgers heads to the Big Televen (Terteen?). People won't gather 'round their TVs on Staten Island and in Manhattan every Saturday to catch the big Iowa-Minnesota game anymore than Chicagoans pack sports bars to see a Syracuse-Villanova basketball game because DePaul is in the Big East.
I understand the concept of access to the market, etc., but actual viewership counts much more, and I don't see the mere presence of Rutgers in the Big Whatever significantly affecting that.
That said, any school leaving the Big East, especially a football school, probably is bad. But if it's Rutgers, and only Rutgers, it's far from a tragedy.

No school has ever milked one decent season more than Rutgers.  Its really unbelieveable when you think about it.  They have literally been one of the worst football teams in the country with the exception of one year, and now people think of them as a quasi football powerhouse.  People on the east coast think of Rutgers as a joke.  It has a terrible reputation in state.  The football and basketball our crap.  It has its own std.  Its a dirty place.

[LON]

No school has ever milked one decent season more than Rutgers.  Its really unbelieveable when you think about it.  They have literally been one of the worst football teams in the country with the exception of one year, and now people think of them as a quasi football powerhouse.  People on the east coast think of Rutgers as a joke.  It has a terrible reputation in state.  The football and basketball our crap.  It has its own std.  Its a dirty place.

Ehh, I think it's gotten better ever since the Sopranos family stopped ripping off the theater department.

[goodgreatgrand]

Let's face it, the BE is on the wrong side of the equation right now, and they are almost powerless to stop it.  The short-sighted decision they made in the late 1980s to not admit Penn State as a basketball member, and the subsequent development of an eastern football league with PSU, has been like a tortourous, slow death.

The BE, technically, was always fundamentally flawed because it was built as a basketball conference. Penn State was not admitted because they wanted a deal similar to what Texas has now; they wanted MUCH more money and they wanted more scheduling flexibility. They sat down at the negotiating table and basically told the BE what they had to accept for them to join. Their 'proposal' rubbed the basket-ball-only schools the wrong way and they voted 'no.' The final vote was 5-3 and its been leaked over the years that both Syracuse and BC lobbied for Penn to join (not sure who the 3rd 'yes' vote was).

The other problem is that the basketball-only schools have the same voting power as the football schools despite the fact that the fball schools generate more money and brand recognition. In its current form, what fball school would want to sit at a negotiating table with bball-only schools and be told how to run their program? If you were Miami, or VT or BC, do you really want the same voting power as Providence, SJU, Seton Hall? I'd rather go to a conference that understands the revenue power of football. This is why the BE has more "up-and-coming" fball programs than big names; the BE is a good spot to build up a program and still receive bowl invites.  

[butchbadger]

I think markets in college sports are wildly over rated. Who is really helped by a big market?

NY?  Nothing. 
SF? Nothing
Chicago? Nothing
LA?  Helps USC in football and perhaps UCLA in basketball.
Houston?  Not much
Dallas? Not much
Miami?  football...but moons ago
Atlanta? GT is OK, not a powerhouse in anything
Philly? Nova  hoops only
DC - GT hoops only
Phoenix - no
Minneapolis - no

[LON]

I think markets in college sports are wildly over rated. Who is really helped by a big market?

NY?  Nothing. 
SF? Nothing
Chicago? Nothing
LA?  Helps USC in football and perhaps UCLA in basketball.
Houston?  Not much
Dallas? Not much
Miami?  football...but moons ago
Atlanta? GT is OK, not a powerhouse in anything
Philly? Nova  hoops only
DC - GT hoops only
Phoenix - no
Minneapolis - no

I'd say USC paying their players helps more than the TV exposure they get...