Marquette84-Ners Debate

[Lighthouse 84]

Roster of a contender?  Figured you 2 a forum need of your own...(not that I disagree with most of what Ners says)

[NersEllenson]

Good point - but at this point I'm pretty worn out by 84.  Debating with him is a mind f*ck, I don't need as he distorts and twists what I've written to fit his own agenda of defending Tom Crean till death do him and TC apart.

IF Scoopers were to go back to that thread and read it from the beginning, they would see my position was consistent.  I NEVER said explicitly that Buzz is the 2nd best coach in MU history, but rather said it appears things could very well be heading in that direction given his results so far on the court and off the court with regard to recruiting.  I placed TC on a level similar to Kevin O'Neill - Obviously it goes Al..and then it is debatable from there with Crean most likely being 2a and O'Neill being 2b.  I do think K.O., inherited a much tougher situation than did Tom Crean.  As Chicos pointed out Conference USA got 5 teams in the NCAA one year 9i didn't (fact check this but take Chicos at his word), whereas the MCC certainly couldn't have even ben classified as a mid-major conference, but rather low major.  The Great Midwest Conference, pretty much the same, though a slight bump from the MCC.

84 is the one who has double standards.  He argues that Buzz hasn't been around long enough for their to be evidence he will exceed Tom Crean, yet also writes that he hasn't accomplished nearly whatTom Crean did...in hi s9 years at MU.  As I said all along...Buzz has just completed his 2nd year.  Give him 7 more and let's see where things stand.  I'll never understand why 84 is more excited to defend the past, than to be excited about the future??  Perhaps 84 is just the eternal pessimist, and I'm the eternal optimist..a.nd therin lies the difference in our opinions.  Fair enough. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

84 is the one who has double standards.  He argues that Buzz hasn't been around long enough for their to be evidence he will exceed Tom Crean, yet also writes that he hasn't accomplished nearly whatTom Crean did...in hi s9 years at MU.  As I said all along...Buzz has just completed his 2nd year.  Give him 7 more and let's see where things stand.  I'll never understand why 84 is more excited to defend the past, than to be excited about the future??  Perhaps 84 is just the eternal pessimist, and I'm the eternal optimist..a.nd therin lies the difference in our opinions.  Fair enough. 

Here is the double standard again.  It was actually 84 before the year started that said this team would finish in the top half of the Big East and make the NCAAs.  How, then, can he be called an eternal pessimist when he was more optimistic than ANYONE on this board?

If anything, you should tip your hat to him for calling it like it is with this team when others didn't.


Also, I thank you for the trust but just in case, here's the data on CUSA.

In 2004, 5 CUSA teams went to the tournament...that's a big reason why we didn't make it that year, the league was damn good.

Louisville, Memphis, Charlotte, DePaul, Cincinnati.

That same year, the Big Ten sent just 3 teams.  Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan State

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/mayhem/history/yearbyyear/2004?tag=pageRow;pageContainer

[Marquette84]

Roster of a contender?  Figured you 2 a forum need of your own...(not that I disagree with most of what Ners says)

Just curious, why did you start a new thread?  Trying to keep the discussion going?  

Good point - but at this point I'm pretty worn out by 84.  Debating with him is a mind f*ck, I don't need as he distorts and twists what I've written to fit his own agenda of defending Tom Crean till death do him and TC apart.

Please post the specific distortions or twist.

I gave you the courtesy of posting your exact quotes every time I responded.  You?  Not so much.  You claim "too long to read".  

Well, if I didn't actually include your quote, things would be a lot shorter.  

If you think something is "distorted" or "twisted", post it.  It may have been an innocent misinterpretation.  

IF Scoopers were to go back to that thread and read it from the beginning, they would see my position was consistent.  I NEVER said explicitly that Buzz is the 2nd best coach in MU history, but rather said it appears things could very well be heading in that direction given his results so far on the court and off the court with regard to recruiting.  

You said--and I quote--"and after just 2 years he has already matched what Tom Crean accomplished (sans a Final Four appearance) in 9 years"

I don't think its a distortion when it's basically your exact statement.  

I placed TC on a level similar to Kevin O'Neill - Obviously it goes Al..and then it is debatable from there with Crean most likely being 2a and O'Neill being 2b.  I do think K.O., inherited a much tougher situation than did Tom Crean.  As Chicos pointed out Conference USA got 5 teams in the NCAA one year 9i didn't (fact check this but take Chicos at his word), whereas the MCC certainly couldn't have even ben classified as a mid-major conference, but rather low major.  The Great Midwest Conference, pretty much the same, though a slight bump from the MCC.

No.  You clearly placed Crean a rung below O'Neill.  

Again, your exact quote:
"I can appreciate what Tom Crean did in his time at MU, but the reality is take away D-Wade and his accomplishments would have placed him a rung below Al McGuire and Kevin O'Neill."

That sure doesn't sound like "similar" to me.  That sure sounds like you've got Al McGuire and Kevin O'Neill at one rung, and Tom Crean at a lower rung.

As far as the comparison of how difficult the coaching situations were--it sounds like we'll just have to disagree.  I don't see any reasonable argument that MCC was as tough as CUSA.  The Great Midwest was nowhere near as tough as the Big East.  Therefore, I fail to understand any rational argument that Kevin O'Neill faced a more difficult situation.

84 is the one who has double standards.  He argues that Buzz hasn't been around long enough for their to be evidence he will exceed Tom Crean, yet also writes that he hasn't accomplished nearly whatTom Crean did...in hi s9 years at MU.  

Crean's top accomplishment is getting to a Final Four.  Buzz's top accomplishment is beating Utah State in the first round. Please explain how this is a "double standard" to point out the obvious--that Buzz hasn't matched Crean yet.  

As I said all along...Buzz has just completed his 2nd year.  Give him 7 more and let's see where things stand.  

First, its dishonest for you to say you said this all along.  You have consistently said  that Buzz has already achieved--if not exceeded--Crean's accomplishments.  

Frankly, you are now just basically restating my response to you.  MY exact quote: "Maybe Buzz will exceed Crean's accomplishments someday--maybe he won't."    

Frankly, I don't undestand your fixation with 7 more years.  Buzz might match or suprass Crean this year.  It might be next year.  It might be 10 years from now.  It might never happen.  

I'll never understand why 84 is more excited to defend the past, than to be excited about the future??  Perhaps 84 is just the eternal pessimist, and I'm the eternal optimist..a.nd therin lies the difference in our opinions.  Fair enough.  

I need to remind you again that I was far more optimistic about this past season than you were.  In fact, if I recall, you were among those who made personal attacks on me BECAUSE I was optimistic.

So please, spare me the distortion that you are an "eternal optimist."  You were EXTREMELY pessimistic at the start of the season because it fit your agenda.

Maybe you need to go back and re-read you initial post--which was not a statement of optimism for the future, but began with the words "Seems you have an agenda to keep Buzz on the same level as Tom Crean?"  Sure sounds like another knee-jerk attack on Crean/defense of Buzz.

[Lennys Tap]

Good point - but at this point I'm pretty worn out by 84.  Debating with him is a mind f*ck, I don't need as he distorts and twists what I've written to fit his own agenda of defending Tom Crean till death do him and TC apart.

IF Scoopers were to go back to that thread and read it from the beginning, they would see my position was consistent.  I NEVER said explicitly that Buzz is the 2nd best coach in MU history, but rather said it appears things could very well be heading in that direction given his results so far on the court and off the court with regard to recruiting.  I placed TC on a level similar to Kevin O'Neill - Obviously it goes Al..and then it is debatable from there with Crean most likely being 2a and O'Neill being 2b.  I do think K.O., inherited a much tougher situation than did Tom Crean.  As Chicos pointed out Conference USA got 5 teams in the NCAA one year 9i didn't (fact check this but take Chicos at his word), whereas the MCC certainly couldn't have even ben classified as a mid-major conference, but rather low major.  The Great Midwest Conference, pretty much the same, though a slight bump from the MCC.

84 is the one who has double standards.  He argues that Buzz hasn't been around long enough for their to be evidence he will exceed Tom Crean, yet also writes that he hasn't accomplished nearly whatTom Crean did...in hi s9 years at MU.  As I said all along...Buzz has just completed his 2nd year.  Give him 7 more and let's see where things stand.  I'll never understand why 84 is more excited to defend the past, than to be excited about the future??  Perhaps 84 is just the eternal pessimist, and I'm the eternal optimist..a.nd therin lies the difference in our opinions.  Fair enough. 

You're learning what Pakuni, myself and countless others on this board have found out the hard way: when 84 sinks his teeth into something he won't let it go. Everyone on this board knows that his preseason "optimism" this past year was his way of kissing TC's behind and setting Buzz up for a fall.

I'll give him credit for his tenacity, though. In spite of failing to convince anyone (other than fellow traveler chicos who has always been "on board") to his way of thinking, he continues with his long winded, take things out of context posts. The "I've been worn out by 84" club is a large and inexclusive one, but welcome nonetheless.

[MedicineHatSpanker]

There are some who believe 84 to be none other than the one, the only, The Joanie!

[rocky_warrior]

The "I've been worn out by 84" club is a large and inexclusive one, but welcome nonetheless.

LOL - No offense 84, but usually I just read the first sentence of your posts these days.  Reading the rest fatigues my brain cells.  Yes, that probably says more about me than it does about you.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You're learning what Pakuni, myself and countless others on this board have found out the hard way: when 84 sinks his teeth into something he won't let it go. Everyone on this board knows that his preseason "optimism" this past year was his way of kissing TC's behind and setting Buzz up for a fall.

I'll give him credit for his tenacity, though. In spite of failing to convince anyone (other than fellow traveler chicos who has always been "on board") to his way of thinking, he continues with his long winded, take things out of context posts. The "I've been worn out by 84" club is a large and inexclusive one, but welcome nonetheless.

Please explain what "his way of thinking is"?  From what I can tell, he likes Buzz (so do I), he appreciates what Crean did for MU (so do I) and he's waiting to see if Buzz is going be as good as Crean, better than Crean or worse than Crean but isn't willing to soil his pants yet until the data comes in.

Sounds like he's a well reasoned individual.  How do you see it Lenny?  I'll bet last week's market ride was interesting for you.  I still feel a double dip is coming, how about you?

[MedicineHatSpanker]

he's waiting to see if Buzz is going be as good as Crean, better than Crean or worse than Crean

Are we speaking about the character issue? If so, then we already know the answer.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Are we speaking about the character issue? If so, then we already know the answer.

That's kind of funny....you should go back in time and read what people said about Crean after year 2....or better yet, after the Final Four.  He was mini-Jesus walking on water.  Or all those marriages in year 2 that ended in divorce in year 5 or 10, did those people suddenly have character issues in later years?

My point is, none of us really truly know anything about any of these people.  We aren't living with these people day to day (and even spouses that do and find their marriages breaking up shows that even that isn't enough)

I'm betting that Buzz is a great guy, great character, etc.  But there are plenty of people over the years that thought the same thing (high character, great person, great father and husband, etc) about a lot of people and were shocked to find out that wasn't the case.  The list is endless with examples.

[MedicineHatSpanker]

That's kind of funny....you should go back in time and read what people said about Crean after year 2.../quote]

Doesn't matter when we figured out he was pathological. Fact is we did find out. Success on the hardboards has nothing to do with character and integriy. John Calipari, anyone?

[ChicosBailBonds]

That's kind of funny....you should go back in time and read what people said about Crean after year 2.../quote]

Doesn't matter when we figured out he was pathological. Fact is we did find out. Success on the hardboards has nothing to do with character and integriy. John Calipari, anyone?

Listen, Canadian Dimes \ Mr. Hayward \ Black Swan, we get it and have read it from you constantly.  It's funny you bring up Coach Cal.  I'll bet 95% + of his former players swear by him.  I could be wrong, but that's my hunch.  Integrity...well that's always in the eye of the beholder now isn't.  I'll bet the New Orleans fans have one version of integrity, just as an example.   All kinds of things go into that definition and depending on what cherry picking you wish to do, then you can make all kinds of charges of lack of integrity.

Did John Wooden lack integrity because of what was going on at UCLA when he was there?  Most people I know claim he's one of the most fundamentally noble people on the planet....so be careful when you're throwing those things around Mr. Hayward.  Good luck in the stock market this week, sounds like you and Lenny had a wild ride last week.

[Lighthouse 84]

Just curious, why did you start a new thread?  Trying to keep the discussion going? 


Actually, it was to hopefully get the other thread back on topic and away from your debate with Ners on a completely different topic

[Golden Avalanche]

Actually, it was to hopefully get the other thread back on topic and away from your debate with Ners on a completely different topic

Epic fail.

[NersEllenson]

All areas in red/bold illustarte where there is distortion
Please post the specific distortions or twist.


If you think something is "distorted" or "twisted", post it.  It may have been an innocent misinterpretation.  


You said--and I quote--"and after just 2 years he has already matched what Tom Crean accomplished (sans a Final Four appearance) in 9 years"

[b]Twisted point # 1:  You write below that I've said Buzz has already accomplished what Tom Crean ..yet above you quote what I wrote...about Buzz has accomplished what TC has (sans a Final Four appearance)  Sans=without, which I assume you knew the meaning of.[/b]



No.  You clearly placed Crean a rung below O'Neill.  

Again, your exact quote:
"I can appreciate what Tom Crean did in his time at MU, but the reality is take away D-Wade and his accomplishments would have placed him a rung below Al McGuire and Kevin O'Neill."

The fact is Tom Crean did have D-Wade..and therefore he is a rung above Kevin O"Neill - When I write take away D-Wade and his accomplishments WOULD have placed him a rung below.."would" indicates I didn't place him below...but would have if not for the Final Four run under DWade.  Again point distorted.

That sure doesn't sound like "similar" to me.  That sure sounds like you've got Al McGuire and Kevin O'Neill at one rung, and Tom Crean at a lower rung.

As far as the comparison of how difficult the coaching situations were--it sounds like we'll just have to disagree.  I don't see any reasonable argument that MCC was as tough as CUSA.  The Great Midwest was nowhere near as tough as the Big East.  Therefore, I fail to understand any rational argument that Kevin O'Neill faced a more difficult situation.

Do you think it is easier to recruit players to the Midwestern Collegiate Conference, or Conference USA?  It's not about the competition faced 84 - its about the state of the program.  O'Neill's accomplishments raised our profile significantly from MCC, to Great Midwest to Conference USA - which means recruiting better talent becomes easier as you get into a better league.  Granted Mike Deane reversed some of the good work KO did, but we were still in a mid-high major conference for Crean to recruit to.

Crean's top accomplishment is getting to a Final Four.  Buzz's top accomplishment is beating Utah State in the first round. Please explain how this is a "double standard" to point out the obvious--that Buzz hasn't matched Crean yet.  


First, its dishonest for you to say you said this all along.  You have consistently said  that Buzz has already achieved--if not exceeded--Crean's accomplishments.   Again -see above said sans a Final Four appearance."  Distorted point again.

Frankly, you are now just basically restating my response to you.  MY exact quote: "Maybe Buzz will exceed Crean's accomplishments someday--maybe he won't."    

Frankly, I don't undestand your fixation with 7 more years.  Buzz might match or suprass Crean this year.  It might be next year.  It might be 10 years from now.  It might never happen.  

I need to remind you again that I was far more optimistic about this past season than you were.  In fact, if I recall, you were among those who made personal attacks on me BECAUSE I was optimistic.

So please, spare me the distortion that you are an "eternal optimist."  You were EXTREMELY pessimistic at the start of the season because it fit your agenda.

Maybe you need to go back and re-read you initial post--which was not a statement of optimism for the future, but began with the words "Seems you have an agenda to keep Buzz on the same level as Tom Crean?"  Sure sounds like another knee-jerk attack on Crean/defense of Buzz.

Everyone knows your agenda in forcasting a Top 5 finish for MU this past year - it was to set Buzz up to fail.  When all experts predicted a 12th place finish before losing Otule, Maymon, and Cadougan.  It is quite easy to see through you 84.[/b]

Lastly, would you for once answer my question about why Tom Crean cannot land a Top 20 recruiting class at IU??  If he is a great recruiter and coach like you like to suggest - how can he not sell players on coming to IU with a ton of playing time available?  And, how do you justify the absolute ass-beatings his IU teams took this past year?

[Marquette84]

You're learning what Pakuni, myself and countless others on this board have found out the hard way: when 84 sinks his teeth into something he won't let it go. Everyone on this board knows that his preseason "optimism" this past year was his way of kissing TC's behind and setting Buzz up for a fall.

I'll give him credit for his tenacity, though. In spite of failing to convince anyone (other than fellow traveler chicos who has always been "on board") to his way of thinking, he continues with his long winded, take things out of context posts. The "I've been worn out by 84" club is a large and inexclusive one, but welcome nonetheless.

Do you EVER have something to add that's not veiled in some kind of personal attack?  You don't seem to be able to engage in any thread that doesn't involve some sort of ad-hominem attack.

I provided extensive justification for my optimism last year. Other than claiming that you think its an "agenda", did you provide any evidence of your own? Of course not!  

The only reason you were pessimistic last year is because you wanted to set the bar so low that regardless of results, you could claim Buzz exceeded expectations.  

At least when I made my case, I did a player-by-player analysis of MU and team-by-team in the league.  What evidence did you offer?  None, other than blindly taking the word of so-called "experts" who also claimed that DJO was rated 40 points on a 100 point scale?

[jmayer1]

At least when I made my case, I did a player-by-player analysis of MU and team-by-team in the league.  What evidence did you offer?  None, other than blindly taking the word of so-called "experts" who also claimed that DJO was rated 40 points on a 100 point scale?

DJO being graded as a 40 simply means ESPN did not see him enough/have enough information to grade him and defaulted him to a rating of 40, not that they thought his skills were equal to a 40 rating on a 100 point scale.  Please stop repeating this, as it's highly inaccurate.

[Lennys Tap]

Please explain what "his way of thinking is"?  From what I can tell, he likes Buzz (so do I), he appreciates what Crean did for MU (so do I) and he's waiting to see if Buzz is going be as good as Crean, better than Crean or worse than Crean but isn't willing to soil his pants yet until the data comes in.

Sounds like he's a well reasoned individual.  How do you see it Lenny?  I'll bet last week's market ride was interesting for you.  I still feel a double dip is coming, how about you?

His way of thinking? 2005-06 = 2009-10. Why? Because Steve Novak = Lazar Hayward? A little. Because Dominic James = Junior Cadougan? NO. Because Jerel McNeal = DJO? Somewhat. Because Wesley Mathews = Jeronne Maymon or Erik Williams? No freakin way. Depth, no big man, injuries, defections, etc = more differences but who's counting.

Why was 84 was anxious to draw comparisons between those two years even before the 09-10 season began? Because 2005-06 was the year that TC most overachieved expectations in his 9 years at MU. His inference was clear to everyone (except you, I guess). Tom Crean (once in 9 years) greatly overachieved with a core of one returning star and a heralded freshman class. The same should be expected of Buzz or he was no Tom Crean (thank God for small favors). 84 was setting Buzz up for a fall, and when the entire freshman class imploded on Buzz (Cadougan hurt, Maymon defecting, Williams not ready) it looked as if he might get his wish. But surprise, surprise. Buzz "coached up" an obviously outmanned team and they overachieved even more than the 2005-06 team.

And for this you want us all to acknowledge that 84 is a soothsayer extrordinaire? Please.

[Marquette84]

Twisted point # 1:  You write below that I've said Buzz has already accomplished what Tom Crean ..yet above you quote what I wrote...about Buzz has accomplished what TC has (sans a Final Four appearance)  Sans=without, which I assume you knew the meaning of.


When I write take away D-Wade and his accomplishments WOULD have placed him a rung below.."would" indicates I didn't place him below...but would have if not for the Final Four run under DWade.  Again point distorted.

Again -see above said sans a Final Four appearance."  Distorted point again.

So in other words, your defense is that because you twisted Crean's accomplishments to make your initial argument, I am wrong to reply using Crean's actual accomplishments.  

Nice.

Your real argument is that Buzz has equaled the accomplishments of some mythical coach that never existed--conjured up by you for the sole purpose of being able to claim that Buzz has equaled or surpassed that coach.  

Fine.  But next time leave Crean out of the comparison if you don't want this debate.

Lastly, would you for once answer my question about why Tom Crean cannot land a Top 20 recruiting class at IU??  If he is a great recruiter and coach like you like to suggest - how can he not sell players on coming to IU with a ton of playing time available?  And, how do you justify the absolute ass-beatings his IU teams took this past year?

First, check out the 2009 class rankings. I believe you'll find that is was rated very close to ours.  

Second, I don't think Crean inherited quite the roster that Buzz did--was there a senior on IU's roster that was even close to Hayward?  

[Lennys Tap]

Do you EVER have something to add that's not veiled in some kind of personal attack?  You don't seem to be able to engage in any thread that doesn't involve some sort of ad-hominem attack.

I provided extensive justification for my optimism last year. Other than claiming that you think its an "agenda", did you provide any evidence of your own? Of course not!  

The only reason you were pessimistic last year is because you wanted to set the bar so low that regardless of results, you could claim Buzz exceeded expectations.  

At least when I made my case, I did a player-by-player analysis of MU and team-by-team in the league.  What evidence did you offer?  None, other than blindly taking the word of so-called "experts" who also claimed that DJO was rated 40 points on a 100 point scale?

To say that you "provide extensive justification" for any and all of your opinions is an understatement. Unfortunately logic can't be measured by the word.

The "experts" I relied upon include the writers who cover Big East basketball for a living and coaches paid millions to know what the other teams in the conference have. Oh, and DJO was rated a 40 by ONE recruiting service - a score AUTOMATICALLY given when the service hasn't seen enough of a player to grade him. How did YOU come to the conclusion that last year's freshmen would be such impact players? Did you scout each of them extensively? And did you also predict/expect a first division Big East/NCAA tournament team in 2005-06?

Regarding ad hominem attacks, it's hard to feel sorry for someone who consistantly engages in them himself. That said, if your feelings are hurt, I apologize.

[Hards Alumni]

I just have one question.

WHO WANTS TO SEX MUTUMBO?

[NersEllenson]

So in other words, your defense is that because you twisted Crean's accomplishments to make your initial argument, I am wrong to reply using Crean's actual accomplishments.  

Nice.

Your real argument is that Buzz has equaled the accomplishments of some mythical coach that never existed--conjured up by you for the sole purpose of being able to claim that Buzz has equaled or surpassed that coach.  

Fine.  But next time leave Crean out of the comparison if you don't want this debate.

Nope - you continue to twist things to fit your agenda.  It is a true statement that Buzz has accomplished in 2 years, what Tom Crean has (minus a Final Four appearance), in 9 years.  That is a true statement. I'm not going to deny that the omission of a Final Four is a big omission.   However, when you rebut that Buzz isn't at TC's level, I reply that give him another 7 years and I highly predict he will get us 4 more NCAA tourney wins (which would equal the total of TC's)  I doubt under Buzz we will play in the NIT EVER..yet TC lead us there 2 years in a row after the Final Four team.

As I said..I don't hate TC and have some gratitude for what the guy accomplished while at MU.  I'm not going to ridicule the guy for using tanning beds, or anything else.  I'm just objectively looking at his legacy, as time marches on - and in contrasting TC to Buzz - I like Buzz a lot more and have a lot more confidence in Buzz.

[ChicosBailBonds]

His way of thinking? 2005-06 = 2009-10. Why? Because Steve Novak = Lazar Hayward? A little. Because Dominic James = Junior Cadougan? NO. Because Jerel McNeal = DJO? Somewhat. Because Wesley Mathews = Jeronne Maymon or Erik Williams? No freakin way. Depth, no big man, injuries, defections, etc = more differences but who's counting.

Why was 84 was anxious to draw comparisons between those two years even before the 09-10 season began? Because 2005-06 was the year that TC most overachieved expectations in his 9 years at MU. His inference was clear to everyone (except you, I guess). Tom Crean (once in 9 years) greatly overachieved with a core of one returning star and a heralded freshman class. The same should be expected of Buzz or he was no Tom Crean (thank God for small favors). 84 was setting Buzz up for a fall, and when the entire freshman class imploded on Buzz (Cadougan hurt, Maymon defecting, Williams not ready) it looked as if he might get his wish. But surprise, surprise. Buzz "coached up" an obviously outmanned team and they overachieved even more than the 2005-06 team.

And for this you want us all to acknowledge that 84 is a soothsayer extrordinaire? Please.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Nope - you continue to twist things to fit your agenda.  It is a true statement that Buzz has accomplished in 2 years, what Tom Crean has (minus a Final Four appearance), in 9 years.  That is a true statement.

I'm sorry, but how can you make this statement....let's get rid of the Final Four because obviously we know that totally kills your argument, so we'll be kind to you and agree to take it out.

Now, how has he accomplished in 2 years what Crean did in 9?  That is not a true statement, it's an asinine statement.

Crean went to 8 post season tournaments in 9 years.  So how can Buzz, in 2 years, accomplish the same thing?  He can't, so your "true" statement is a FALSE statement.

Crean's teams won almost 200 games in 9 years.  Has Buzz?  No.  False statement.

Crean's teams won 5 NCAA tournament games.  Has Buzz?  No.  False statement.

I could go on and on, but what's the point.

That doesn't mean Buzz won't accomplish all those things, if not blow right by them.  I sure as hell hope he does, but to say he has accomplished the same in 2 years as Crean did in 9,....based on what???

It's just a complete joke of a statement that you make.  It's completely ludicrous.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I cannot believe people are still this interested in the debate. People for Crean, people against Crean.

My only contribution at the moment is to note that among people serially obsessed about the debate over Crean's impact on MU, it is the people for Crean who deny having an obsession in their pursuit to clear his name while the people against Crean don't seem bothered by the idea that they are obsessed in pursuit of exposing his character.