Marquette84-Ners Debate

[Lighthouse 84]

Roster of a contender?  Figured you 2 a forum need of your own...(not that I disagree with most of what Ners says)

[NersEllenson]

Good point - but at this point I'm pretty worn out by 84.  Debating with him is a mind f*ck, I don't need as he distorts and twists what I've written to fit his own agenda of defending Tom Crean till death do him and TC apart.

IF Scoopers were to go back to that thread and read it from the beginning, they would see my position was consistent.  I NEVER said explicitly that Buzz is the 2nd best coach in MU history, but rather said it appears things could very well be heading in that direction given his results so far on the court and off the court with regard to recruiting.  I placed TC on a level similar to Kevin O'Neill - Obviously it goes Al..and then it is debatable from there with Crean most likely being 2a and O'Neill being 2b.  I do think K.O., inherited a much tougher situation than did Tom Crean.  As Chicos pointed out Conference USA got 5 teams in the NCAA one year 9i didn't (fact check this but take Chicos at his word), whereas the MCC certainly couldn't have even ben classified as a mid-major conference, but rather low major.  The Great Midwest Conference, pretty much the same, though a slight bump from the MCC.

84 is the one who has double standards.  He argues that Buzz hasn't been around long enough for their to be evidence he will exceed Tom Crean, yet also writes that he hasn't accomplished nearly whatTom Crean did...in hi s9 years at MU.  As I said all along...Buzz has just completed his 2nd year.  Give him 7 more and let's see where things stand.  I'll never understand why 84 is more excited to defend the past, than to be excited about the future??  Perhaps 84 is just the eternal pessimist, and I'm the eternal optimist..a.nd therin lies the difference in our opinions.  Fair enough. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

84 is the one who has double standards.  He argues that Buzz hasn't been around long enough for their to be evidence he will exceed Tom Crean, yet also writes that he hasn't accomplished nearly whatTom Crean did...in hi s9 years at MU.  As I said all along...Buzz has just completed his 2nd year.  Give him 7 more and let's see where things stand.  I'll never understand why 84 is more excited to defend the past, than to be excited about the future??  Perhaps 84 is just the eternal pessimist, and I'm the eternal optimist..a.nd therin lies the difference in our opinions.  Fair enough. 

Here is the double standard again.  It was actually 84 before the year started that said this team would finish in the top half of the Big East and make the NCAAs.  How, then, can he be called an eternal pessimist when he was more optimistic than ANYONE on this board?

If anything, you should tip your hat to him for calling it like it is with this team when others didn't.


Also, I thank you for the trust but just in case, here's the data on CUSA.

In 2004, 5 CUSA teams went to the tournament...that's a big reason why we didn't make it that year, the league was damn good.

Louisville, Memphis, Charlotte, DePaul, Cincinnati.

That same year, the Big Ten sent just 3 teams.  Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan State

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/mayhem/history/yearbyyear/2004?tag=pageRow;pageContainer

[Marquette84]

Roster of a contender?  Figured you 2 a forum need of your own...(not that I disagree with most of what Ners says)

Just curious, why did you start a new thread?  Trying to keep the discussion going?  

Good point - but at this point I'm pretty worn out by 84.  Debating with him is a mind f*ck, I don't need as he distorts and twists what I've written to fit his own agenda of defending Tom Crean till death do him and TC apart.

Please post the specific distortions or twist.

I gave you the courtesy of posting your exact quotes every time I responded.  You?  Not so much.  You claim "too long to read".  

Well, if I didn't actually include your quote, things would be a lot shorter.  

If you think something is "distorted" or "twisted", post it.  It may have been an innocent misinterpretation.  

IF Scoopers were to go back to that thread and read it from the beginning, they would see my position was consistent.  I NEVER said explicitly that Buzz is the 2nd best coach in MU history, but rather said it appears things could very well be heading in that direction given his results so far on the court and off the court with regard to recruiting.  

You said--and I quote--"and after just 2 years he has already matched what Tom Crean accomplished (sans a Final Four appearance) in 9 years"

I don't think its a distortion when it's basically your exact statement.  

I placed TC on a level similar to Kevin O'Neill - Obviously it goes Al..and then it is debatable from there with Crean most likely being 2a and O'Neill being 2b.  I do think K.O., inherited a much tougher situation than did Tom Crean.  As Chicos pointed out Conference USA got 5 teams in the NCAA one year 9i didn't (fact check this but take Chicos at his word), whereas the MCC certainly couldn't have even ben classified as a mid-major conference, but rather low major.  The Great Midwest Conference, pretty much the same, though a slight bump from the MCC.

No.  You clearly placed Crean a rung below O'Neill.  

Again, your exact quote:
"I can appreciate what Tom Crean did in his time at MU, but the reality is take away D-Wade and his accomplishments would have placed him a rung below Al McGuire and Kevin O'Neill."

That sure doesn't sound like "similar" to me.  That sure sounds like you've got Al McGuire and Kevin O'Neill at one rung, and Tom Crean at a lower rung.

As far as the comparison of how difficult the coaching situations were--it sounds like we'll just have to disagree.  I don't see any reasonable argument that MCC was as tough as CUSA.  The Great Midwest was nowhere near as tough as the Big East.  Therefore, I fail to understand any rational argument that Kevin O'Neill faced a more difficult situation.

84 is the one who has double standards.  He argues that Buzz hasn't been around long enough for their to be evidence he will exceed Tom Crean, yet also writes that he hasn't accomplished nearly whatTom Crean did...in hi s9 years at MU.  

Crean's top accomplishment is getting to a Final Four.  Buzz's top accomplishment is beating Utah State in the first round. Please explain how this is a "double standard" to point out the obvious--that Buzz hasn't matched Crean yet.  

As I said all along...Buzz has just completed his 2nd year.  Give him 7 more and let's see where things stand.  

First, its dishonest for you to say you said this all along.  You have consistently said  that Buzz has already achieved--if not exceeded--Crean's accomplishments.  

Frankly, you are now just basically restating my response to you.  MY exact quote: "Maybe Buzz will exceed Crean's accomplishments someday--maybe he won't."    

Frankly, I don't undestand your fixation with 7 more years.  Buzz might match or suprass Crean this year.  It might be next year.  It might be 10 years from now.  It might never happen.  

I'll never understand why 84 is more excited to defend the past, than to be excited about the future??  Perhaps 84 is just the eternal pessimist, and I'm the eternal optimist..a.nd therin lies the difference in our opinions.  Fair enough.  

I need to remind you again that I was far more optimistic about this past season than you were.  In fact, if I recall, you were among those who made personal attacks on me BECAUSE I was optimistic.

So please, spare me the distortion that you are an "eternal optimist."  You were EXTREMELY pessimistic at the start of the season because it fit your agenda.

Maybe you need to go back and re-read you initial post--which was not a statement of optimism for the future, but began with the words "Seems you have an agenda to keep Buzz on the same level as Tom Crean?"  Sure sounds like another knee-jerk attack on Crean/defense of Buzz.

[Lennys Tap]

Good point - but at this point I'm pretty worn out by 84.  Debating with him is a mind f*ck, I don't need as he distorts and twists what I've written to fit his own agenda of defending Tom Crean till death do him and TC apart.

IF Scoopers were to go back to that thread and read it from the beginning, they would see my position was consistent.  I NEVER said explicitly that Buzz is the 2nd best coach in MU history, but rather said it appears things could very well be heading in that direction given his results so far on the court and off the court with regard to recruiting.  I placed TC on a level similar to Kevin O'Neill - Obviously it goes Al..and then it is debatable from there with Crean most likely being 2a and O'Neill being 2b.  I do think K.O., inherited a much tougher situation than did Tom Crean.  As Chicos pointed out Conference USA got 5 teams in the NCAA one year 9i didn't (fact check this but take Chicos at his word), whereas the MCC certainly couldn't have even ben classified as a mid-major conference, but rather low major.  The Great Midwest Conference, pretty much the same, though a slight bump from the MCC.

84 is the one who has double standards.  He argues that Buzz hasn't been around long enough for their to be evidence he will exceed Tom Crean, yet also writes that he hasn't accomplished nearly whatTom Crean did...in hi s9 years at MU.  As I said all along...Buzz has just completed his 2nd year.  Give him 7 more and let's see where things stand.  I'll never understand why 84 is more excited to defend the past, than to be excited about the future??  Perhaps 84 is just the eternal pessimist, and I'm the eternal optimist..a.nd therin lies the difference in our opinions.  Fair enough. 

You're learning what Pakuni, myself and countless others on this board have found out the hard way: when 84 sinks his teeth into something he won't let it go. Everyone on this board knows that his preseason "optimism" this past year was his way of kissing TC's behind and setting Buzz up for a fall.

I'll give him credit for his tenacity, though. In spite of failing to convince anyone (other than fellow traveler chicos who has always been "on board") to his way of thinking, he continues with his long winded, take things out of context posts. The "I've been worn out by 84" club is a large and inexclusive one, but welcome nonetheless.

[MedicineHatSpanker]

There are some who believe 84 to be none other than the one, the only, The Joanie!

[rocky_warrior]

The "I've been worn out by 84" club is a large and inexclusive one, but welcome nonetheless.

LOL - No offense 84, but usually I just read the first sentence of your posts these days.  Reading the rest fatigues my brain cells.  Yes, that probably says more about me than it does about you.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You're learning what Pakuni, myself and countless others on this board have found out the hard way: when 84 sinks his teeth into something he won't let it go. Everyone on this board knows that his preseason "optimism" this past year was his way of kissing TC's behind and setting Buzz up for a fall.

I'll give him credit for his tenacity, though. In spite of failing to convince anyone (other than fellow traveler chicos who has always been "on board") to his way of thinking, he continues with his long winded, take things out of context posts. The "I've been worn out by 84" club is a large and inexclusive one, but welcome nonetheless.

Please explain what "his way of thinking is"?  From what I can tell, he likes Buzz (so do I), he appreciates what Crean did for MU (so do I) and he's waiting to see if Buzz is going be as good as Crean, better than Crean or worse than Crean but isn't willing to soil his pants yet until the data comes in.

Sounds like he's a well reasoned individual.  How do you see it Lenny?  I'll bet last week's market ride was interesting for you.  I still feel a double dip is coming, how about you?

[MedicineHatSpanker]

he's waiting to see if Buzz is going be as good as Crean, better than Crean or worse than Crean

Are we speaking about the character issue? If so, then we already know the answer.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Are we speaking about the character issue? If so, then we already know the answer.

That's kind of funny....you should go back in time and read what people said about Crean after year 2....or better yet, after the Final Four.  He was mini-Jesus walking on water.  Or all those marriages in year 2 that ended in divorce in year 5 or 10, did those people suddenly have character issues in later years?

My point is, none of us really truly know anything about any of these people.  We aren't living with these people day to day (and even spouses that do and find their marriages breaking up shows that even that isn't enough)

I'm betting that Buzz is a great guy, great character, etc.  But there are plenty of people over the years that thought the same thing (high character, great person, great father and husband, etc) about a lot of people and were shocked to find out that wasn't the case.  The list is endless with examples.

[MedicineHatSpanker]

That's kind of funny....you should go back in time and read what people said about Crean after year 2.../quote]

Doesn't matter when we figured out he was pathological. Fact is we did find out. Success on the hardboards has nothing to do with character and integriy. John Calipari, anyone?

[ChicosBailBonds]

That's kind of funny....you should go back in time and read what people said about Crean after year 2.../quote]

Doesn't matter when we figured out he was pathological. Fact is we did find out. Success on the hardboards has nothing to do with character and integriy. John Calipari, anyone?

Listen, Canadian Dimes \ Mr. Hayward \ Black Swan, we get it and have read it from you constantly.  It's funny you bring up Coach Cal.  I'll bet 95% + of his former players swear by him.  I could be wrong, but that's my hunch.  Integrity...well that's always in the eye of the beholder now isn't.  I'll bet the New Orleans fans have one version of integrity, just as an example.   All kinds of things go into that definition and depending on what cherry picking you wish to do, then you can make all kinds of charges of lack of integrity.

Did John Wooden lack integrity because of what was going on at UCLA when he was there?  Most people I know claim he's one of the most fundamentally noble people on the planet....so be careful when you're throwing those things around Mr. Hayward.  Good luck in the stock market this week, sounds like you and Lenny had a wild ride last week.

[Lighthouse 84]

Just curious, why did you start a new thread?  Trying to keep the discussion going? 


Actually, it was to hopefully get the other thread back on topic and away from your debate with Ners on a completely different topic

[Golden Avalanche]

Actually, it was to hopefully get the other thread back on topic and away from your debate with Ners on a completely different topic

Epic fail.

[NersEllenson]

All areas in red/bold illustarte where there is distortion
Please post the specific distortions or twist.


If you think something is "distorted" or "twisted", post it.  It may have been an innocent misinterpretation.  


You said--and I quote--"and after just 2 years he has already matched what Tom Crean accomplished (sans a Final Four appearance) in 9 years"

[b]Twisted point # 1:  You write below that I've said Buzz has already accomplished what Tom Crean ..yet above you quote what I wrote...about Buzz has accomplished what TC has (sans a Final Four appearance)  Sans=without, which I assume you knew the meaning of.[/b]



No.  You clearly placed Crean a rung below O'Neill.  

Again, your exact quote:
"I can appreciate what Tom Crean did in his time at MU, but the reality is take away D-Wade and his accomplishments would have placed him a rung below Al McGuire and Kevin O'Neill."

The fact is Tom Crean did have D-Wade..and therefore he is a rung above Kevin O"Neill - When I write take away D-Wade and his accomplishments WOULD have placed him a rung below.."would" indicates I didn't place him below...but would have if not for the Final Four run under DWade.  Again point distorted.

That sure doesn't sound like "similar" to me.  That sure sounds like you've got Al McGuire and Kevin O'Neill at one rung, and Tom Crean at a lower rung.

As far as the comparison of how difficult the coaching situations were--it sounds like we'll just have to disagree.  I don't see any reasonable argument that MCC was as tough as CUSA.  The Great Midwest was nowhere near as tough as the Big East.  Therefore, I fail to understand any rational argument that Kevin O'Neill faced a more difficult situation.

Do you think it is easier to recruit players to the Midwestern Collegiate Conference, or Conference USA?  It's not about the competition faced 84 - its about the state of the program.  O'Neill's accomplishments raised our profile significantly from MCC, to Great Midwest to Conference USA - which means recruiting better talent becomes easier as you get into a better league.  Granted Mike Deane reversed some of the good work KO did, but we were still in a mid-high major conference for Crean to recruit to.

Crean's top accomplishment is getting to a Final Four.  Buzz's top accomplishment is beating Utah State in the first round. Please explain how this is a "double standard" to point out the obvious--that Buzz hasn't matched Crean yet.  


First, its dishonest for you to say you said this all along.  You have consistently said  that Buzz has already achieved--if not exceeded--Crean's accomplishments.   Again -see above said sans a Final Four appearance."  Distorted point again.

Frankly, you are now just basically restating my response to you.  MY exact quote: "Maybe Buzz will exceed Crean's accomplishments someday--maybe he won't."    

Frankly, I don't undestand your fixation with 7 more years.  Buzz might match or suprass Crean this year.  It might be next year.  It might be 10 years from now.  It might never happen.  

I need to remind you again that I was far more optimistic about this past season than you were.  In fact, if I recall, you were among those who made personal attacks on me BECAUSE I was optimistic.

So please, spare me the distortion that you are an "eternal optimist."  You were EXTREMELY pessimistic at the start of the season because it fit your agenda.

Maybe you need to go back and re-read you initial post--which was not a statement of optimism for the future, but began with the words "Seems you have an agenda to keep Buzz on the same level as Tom Crean?"  Sure sounds like another knee-jerk attack on Crean/defense of Buzz.

Everyone knows your agenda in forcasting a Top 5 finish for MU this past year - it was to set Buzz up to fail.  When all experts predicted a 12th place finish before losing Otule, Maymon, and Cadougan.  It is quite easy to see through you 84.[/b]

Lastly, would you for once answer my question about why Tom Crean cannot land a Top 20 recruiting class at IU??  If he is a great recruiter and coach like you like to suggest - how can he not sell players on coming to IU with a ton of playing time available?  And, how do you justify the absolute ass-beatings his IU teams took this past year?

[Marquette84]

You're learning what Pakuni, myself and countless others on this board have found out the hard way: when 84 sinks his teeth into something he won't let it go. Everyone on this board knows that his preseason "optimism" this past year was his way of kissing TC's behind and setting Buzz up for a fall.

I'll give him credit for his tenacity, though. In spite of failing to convince anyone (other than fellow traveler chicos who has always been "on board") to his way of thinking, he continues with his long winded, take things out of context posts. The "I've been worn out by 84" club is a large and inexclusive one, but welcome nonetheless.

Do you EVER have something to add that's not veiled in some kind of personal attack?  You don't seem to be able to engage in any thread that doesn't involve some sort of ad-hominem attack.

I provided extensive justification for my optimism last year. Other than claiming that you think its an "agenda", did you provide any evidence of your own? Of course not!  

The only reason you were pessimistic last year is because you wanted to set the bar so low that regardless of results, you could claim Buzz exceeded expectations.  

At least when I made my case, I did a player-by-player analysis of MU and team-by-team in the league.  What evidence did you offer?  None, other than blindly taking the word of so-called "experts" who also claimed that DJO was rated 40 points on a 100 point scale?

[jmayer1]

At least when I made my case, I did a player-by-player analysis of MU and team-by-team in the league.  What evidence did you offer?  None, other than blindly taking the word of so-called "experts" who also claimed that DJO was rated 40 points on a 100 point scale?

DJO being graded as a 40 simply means ESPN did not see him enough/have enough information to grade him and defaulted him to a rating of 40, not that they thought his skills were equal to a 40 rating on a 100 point scale.  Please stop repeating this, as it's highly inaccurate.

[Lennys Tap]

Please explain what "his way of thinking is"?  From what I can tell, he likes Buzz (so do I), he appreciates what Crean did for MU (so do I) and he's waiting to see if Buzz is going be as good as Crean, better than Crean or worse than Crean but isn't willing to soil his pants yet until the data comes in.

Sounds like he's a well reasoned individual.  How do you see it Lenny?  I'll bet last week's market ride was interesting for you.  I still feel a double dip is coming, how about you?

His way of thinking? 2005-06 = 2009-10. Why? Because Steve Novak = Lazar Hayward? A little. Because Dominic James = Junior Cadougan? NO. Because Jerel McNeal = DJO? Somewhat. Because Wesley Mathews = Jeronne Maymon or Erik Williams? No freakin way. Depth, no big man, injuries, defections, etc = more differences but who's counting.

Why was 84 was anxious to draw comparisons between those two years even before the 09-10 season began? Because 2005-06 was the year that TC most overachieved expectations in his 9 years at MU. His inference was clear to everyone (except you, I guess). Tom Crean (once in 9 years) greatly overachieved with a core of one returning star and a heralded freshman class. The same should be expected of Buzz or he was no Tom Crean (thank God for small favors). 84 was setting Buzz up for a fall, and when the entire freshman class imploded on Buzz (Cadougan hurt, Maymon defecting, Williams not ready) it looked as if he might get his wish. But surprise, surprise. Buzz "coached up" an obviously outmanned team and they overachieved even more than the 2005-06 team.

And for this you want us all to acknowledge that 84 is a soothsayer extrordinaire? Please.

[Marquette84]

Twisted point # 1:  You write below that I've said Buzz has already accomplished what Tom Crean ..yet above you quote what I wrote...about Buzz has accomplished what TC has (sans a Final Four appearance)  Sans=without, which I assume you knew the meaning of.


When I write take away D-Wade and his accomplishments WOULD have placed him a rung below.."would" indicates I didn't place him below...but would have if not for the Final Four run under DWade.  Again point distorted.

Again -see above said sans a Final Four appearance."  Distorted point again.

So in other words, your defense is that because you twisted Crean's accomplishments to make your initial argument, I am wrong to reply using Crean's actual accomplishments.  

Nice.

Your real argument is that Buzz has equaled the accomplishments of some mythical coach that never existed--conjured up by you for the sole purpose of being able to claim that Buzz has equaled or surpassed that coach.  

Fine.  But next time leave Crean out of the comparison if you don't want this debate.

Lastly, would you for once answer my question about why Tom Crean cannot land a Top 20 recruiting class at IU??  If he is a great recruiter and coach like you like to suggest - how can he not sell players on coming to IU with a ton of playing time available?  And, how do you justify the absolute ass-beatings his IU teams took this past year?

First, check out the 2009 class rankings. I believe you'll find that is was rated very close to ours.  

Second, I don't think Crean inherited quite the roster that Buzz did--was there a senior on IU's roster that was even close to Hayward?  

[Lennys Tap]

Do you EVER have something to add that's not veiled in some kind of personal attack?  You don't seem to be able to engage in any thread that doesn't involve some sort of ad-hominem attack.

I provided extensive justification for my optimism last year. Other than claiming that you think its an "agenda", did you provide any evidence of your own? Of course not!  

The only reason you were pessimistic last year is because you wanted to set the bar so low that regardless of results, you could claim Buzz exceeded expectations.  

At least when I made my case, I did a player-by-player analysis of MU and team-by-team in the league.  What evidence did you offer?  None, other than blindly taking the word of so-called "experts" who also claimed that DJO was rated 40 points on a 100 point scale?

To say that you "provide extensive justification" for any and all of your opinions is an understatement. Unfortunately logic can't be measured by the word.

The "experts" I relied upon include the writers who cover Big East basketball for a living and coaches paid millions to know what the other teams in the conference have. Oh, and DJO was rated a 40 by ONE recruiting service - a score AUTOMATICALLY given when the service hasn't seen enough of a player to grade him. How did YOU come to the conclusion that last year's freshmen would be such impact players? Did you scout each of them extensively? And did you also predict/expect a first division Big East/NCAA tournament team in 2005-06?

Regarding ad hominem attacks, it's hard to feel sorry for someone who consistantly engages in them himself. That said, if your feelings are hurt, I apologize.

[Hards Alumni]

I just have one question.

WHO WANTS TO SEX MUTUMBO?

[NersEllenson]

So in other words, your defense is that because you twisted Crean's accomplishments to make your initial argument, I am wrong to reply using Crean's actual accomplishments.  

Nice.

Your real argument is that Buzz has equaled the accomplishments of some mythical coach that never existed--conjured up by you for the sole purpose of being able to claim that Buzz has equaled or surpassed that coach.  

Fine.  But next time leave Crean out of the comparison if you don't want this debate.

Nope - you continue to twist things to fit your agenda.  It is a true statement that Buzz has accomplished in 2 years, what Tom Crean has (minus a Final Four appearance), in 9 years.  That is a true statement. I'm not going to deny that the omission of a Final Four is a big omission.   However, when you rebut that Buzz isn't at TC's level, I reply that give him another 7 years and I highly predict he will get us 4 more NCAA tourney wins (which would equal the total of TC's)  I doubt under Buzz we will play in the NIT EVER..yet TC lead us there 2 years in a row after the Final Four team.

As I said..I don't hate TC and have some gratitude for what the guy accomplished while at MU.  I'm not going to ridicule the guy for using tanning beds, or anything else.  I'm just objectively looking at his legacy, as time marches on - and in contrasting TC to Buzz - I like Buzz a lot more and have a lot more confidence in Buzz.

[ChicosBailBonds]

His way of thinking? 2005-06 = 2009-10. Why? Because Steve Novak = Lazar Hayward? A little. Because Dominic James = Junior Cadougan? NO. Because Jerel McNeal = DJO? Somewhat. Because Wesley Mathews = Jeronne Maymon or Erik Williams? No freakin way. Depth, no big man, injuries, defections, etc = more differences but who's counting.

Why was 84 was anxious to draw comparisons between those two years even before the 09-10 season began? Because 2005-06 was the year that TC most overachieved expectations in his 9 years at MU. His inference was clear to everyone (except you, I guess). Tom Crean (once in 9 years) greatly overachieved with a core of one returning star and a heralded freshman class. The same should be expected of Buzz or he was no Tom Crean (thank God for small favors). 84 was setting Buzz up for a fall, and when the entire freshman class imploded on Buzz (Cadougan hurt, Maymon defecting, Williams not ready) it looked as if he might get his wish. But surprise, surprise. Buzz "coached up" an obviously outmanned team and they overachieved even more than the 2005-06 team.

And for this you want us all to acknowledge that 84 is a soothsayer extrordinaire? Please.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Nope - you continue to twist things to fit your agenda.  It is a true statement that Buzz has accomplished in 2 years, what Tom Crean has (minus a Final Four appearance), in 9 years.  That is a true statement.

I'm sorry, but how can you make this statement....let's get rid of the Final Four because obviously we know that totally kills your argument, so we'll be kind to you and agree to take it out.

Now, how has he accomplished in 2 years what Crean did in 9?  That is not a true statement, it's an asinine statement.

Crean went to 8 post season tournaments in 9 years.  So how can Buzz, in 2 years, accomplish the same thing?  He can't, so your "true" statement is a FALSE statement.

Crean's teams won almost 200 games in 9 years.  Has Buzz?  No.  False statement.

Crean's teams won 5 NCAA tournament games.  Has Buzz?  No.  False statement.

I could go on and on, but what's the point.

That doesn't mean Buzz won't accomplish all those things, if not blow right by them.  I sure as hell hope he does, but to say he has accomplished the same in 2 years as Crean did in 9,....based on what???

It's just a complete joke of a statement that you make.  It's completely ludicrous.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I cannot believe people are still this interested in the debate. People for Crean, people against Crean.

My only contribution at the moment is to note that among people serially obsessed about the debate over Crean's impact on MU, it is the people for Crean who deny having an obsession in their pursuit to clear his name while the people against Crean don't seem bothered by the idea that they are obsessed in pursuit of exposing his character.

[Marquette84]

Nope - you continue to twist things to fit your agenda.  It is a true statement that Buzz has accomplished in 2 years, what Tom Crean has (minus a Final Four appearance), in 9 years.  That is a true statement.

It may be true, but its also a statement based on a twisted premise.

Why do you feel its okay for you to twist things to fit your agenda, but if I twist it back to a factually correct basis, you get mad.

I'm not going to deny that the omission of a Final Four is a big omission.

Of course it is.  I'm glad you recognize it. 

Why do you keep attempting to pretend it didn't occur when you make your comparison?

Do you understand that some people think that omission is "twisting the record to get the outcome they want?"

  However, when you rebut that Buzz isn't at TC's level, I reply that give him another 7 years and I highly predict he will get us 4 more NCAA tourney wins (which would equal the total of TC's)  I doubt under Buzz we will play in the NIT EVER..yet TC lead us there 2 years in a row after the Final Four team.

So, as I've said all along, the fair statement is that while Buzz has shown a large amount of promise and potential, his biggest accomplishment so far has been to continue the level of success that we've had in the Big East under Crean.

[Marquette84]

DJO being graded as a 40 simply means ESPN did not see him enough/have enough information to grade him and defaulted him to a rating of 40, not that they thought his skills were equal to a 40 rating on a 100 point scale.  Please stop repeating this, as it's highly inaccurate.

I think you missed the point.

Since ESPN didn't evaluate DJO, their preseason prediction of 12th was suspect because they couldn't possibly have factored him into their prediction--by their own admission they didn't know enough to include him.

Unlike ESPN, I tried to make a reasonable assumption--that DJO would equal the contributions of McNeal's freshman year. 

[NersEllenson]

I'm sorry, but how can you make this statement....let's get rid of the Final Four because obviously we know that totally kills your argument, so we'll be kind to you and agree to take it out.

Now, how has he accomplished in 2 years what Crean did in 9?  That is not a true statement, it's an asinine statement.

Crean went to 8 post season tournaments in 9 years.  So how can Buzz, in 2 years, accomplish the same thing?  He can't, so your "true" statement is a FALSE statement.

Crean's teams won almost 200 games in 9 years.  Has Buzz?  No.  False statement.

Crean's teams won 5 NCAA tournament games.  Has Buzz?  No.  False statement.

I could go on and on, but what's the point.

That doesn't mean Buzz won't accomplish all those things, if not blow right by them.  I sure as hell hope he does, but to say he has accomplished the same in 2 years as Crean did in 9,....based on what???

It's just a complete joke of a statement that you make.  It's completely ludicrous.

You've basically just re-stated the point I have been trying to make all along - Buzz has only been at the helm for 2 years, and has pretty much matched Tom Crean's "production."  I don't put a lot of stock into aggregate regular season win totals - when one coach has 7 less years of data to compare.  Nor do I put a lot into how many post season appearances a coach has - especially when you are counting NIT appearances.  What I do put stock in, is NCAA tourney wins, and in 9 years Dwayne Wade generated 4 of the 5 wins the Crean regime was responsible for.  My point all along is give Buzz 7 more years, and I suspect he will elipse Crean in all of the above categories you mention.  I'll be extremely disappointed if Buzz Williams leads MU to only 3 more NCAA tournmants in the next 7 years, which would give Buzz a total of 5 appearances in a 9 year span - which would equal the Crean regime's track record.  I'll be just as disappointed if Buzz is only able to record a total of 4 more NCAA tourney wins in the next 7 years.

[jmayer1]

I think you missed the point.

Since ESPN didn't evaluate DJO, their preseason prediction of 12th was suspect because they couldn't possibly have factored him into their prediction--by their own admission they didn't know enough to include him.

Unlike ESPN, I tried to make a reasonable assumption--that DJO would equal the contributions of McNeal's freshman year. 

I didn't miss anything.  You incorrectly wrote what you were trying to say.

"blindly taking the word of so-called "experts" who also claimed that DJO was rated 40 points on a 100 point scale?"

You misrepresented what you were trying to say.

Also, your logic here is highly faulty and non-sensical.  ESPN's recruiting guys didn't see enough of DJO to grade him so they defaulted to a 40, which I actaully find admirable and much better than slapping some grade on him based on secondhand reports.

However, that doesn't mean that the people making various predictions (different from those who do the recruiting rankings) couldn't factor in what DJO (a first-team juco all american) would bring to the table. When making predictions, people use all information available, not just incomplete recruiting rankings done by another person who happens to work at the same company.

Of course, there were lots of people, aside from ESPN, that figured MU would finish lower than they did this year. Just as there were a lot of people that picked MU to finish higher than it did in 03-04 and 04-05,  However, for some reason, you felt this team had to be compared to the 05-06 team, which just happened to be possibly the best coaching job ever done by the previous coach.

[Lennys Tap]

I didn't miss anything.  You incorrectly wrote what you were trying to say.

"blindly taking the word of so-called "experts" who also claimed that DJO was rated 40 points on a 100 point scale?"

You misrepresented what you were trying to say.

Also, your logic here is highly faulty and non-sensical.  ESPN's recruiting guys didn't see enough of DJO to grade him so they defaulted to a 40, which I actaully find admirable and much better than slapping some grade on him based on secondhand reports.

However, that doesn't mean that the people making various predictions (different from those who do the recruiting rankings) couldn't factor in what DJO (a first-team juco all american) would bring to the table. When making predictions, people use all information available, not just incomplete recruiting rankings done by another person who happens to work at the same company.

Of course, there were lots of people, aside from ESPN, that figured MU would finish lower than they did this year. Just as there were a lot of people that picked MU to finish higher than it did in 03-04 and 04-05,  However, for some reason, you felt this team had to be compared to the 05-06 team, which just happened to be possibly the best coaching job ever done by the previous coach.

Be careful, jmayer. Having the intelligence to connect the rather obvious dots may get you accused of playing mind reader or psychiatrist by Chicos.

[Marquette84]

I didn't miss anything.  You incorrectly wrote what you were trying to say.

"blindly taking the word of so-called "experts" who also claimed that DJO was rated 40 points on a 100 point scale?"

You misrepresented what you were trying to say.

Just because you don't agree doesn't mean its a "misrepresentation."

ESPN rated DJO 40.
ESPN was one of those who picked us to finish 12th.

I think those two observations are related. I strongly believe if ESPN had given DJO a fair evaluation they wouldn't have picked us 12th.

[NersEllenson]

Just because you don't agree doesn't mean its a "misrepresentation."

ESPN rated DJO 40.
ESPN was one of those who picked us to finish 12th.

I think those two observations are related. I strongly believe if ESPN had given DJO a fair evaluation they wouldn't have picked us 12th.

Fair enough, but then by this same admission, you must believe that if ESPN knew that our two top rated recruits  - Cadougan and Maymon would be non-factors - you must also acknowledge that perhaps we should have finished worse than 12th considering we were down our two highest rated recruits, correct?  As I've said all along, even with your inflated prediction that MU would finish 5th or 6th in the Big East last year -that was still predicated on Buzz having Cadougan, Maymon and Otule.  I think if you would just admit that Buzz did a phenomonal coaching job last season, most of us would be satisfied.  I don't have a problem stating Crean did his best coaching job at MU in the 2005-2006 season - the Big 3's freshman year.  That said, that was Tom Crean's 6th year at the helm, and there really is no reason why a team should be so reliant on 3 freshman to succeed at that point.  Clearly there were empty recruiting classes, the 2 NIT appearances after the Final Four, that resulted in TC having to coach up the Big 3 as freshman - and..I tip my cap to TC as it was his best coaching job at MU.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

It is interesting to see a debate for and against the past -- I'm really curious to see who will finally win!

The real question is whether or not resolute few would be "happy" or "angry/sad" if Buzz were to no longer be the head of our program.  The sad thing is that based on what continues to be debated, I don't know the answer to that question.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You've basically just re-stated the point I have been trying to make all along - Buzz has only been at the helm for 2 years, and has pretty much matched Tom Crean's "production."  I don't put a lot of stock into aggregate regular season win totals - when one coach has 7 less years of data to compare.  Nor do I put a lot into how many post season appearances a coach has - especially when you are counting NIT appearances.  What I do put stock in, is NCAA tourney wins, and in 9 years Dwayne Wade generated 4 of the 5 wins the Crean regime was responsible for.  My point all along is give Buzz 7 more years, and I suspect he will elipse Crean in all of the above categories you mention.  I'll be extremely disappointed if Buzz Williams leads MU to only 3 more NCAA tournmants in the next 7 years, which would give Buzz a total of 5 appearances in a 9 year span - which would equal the Crean regime's track record.  I'll be just as disappointed if Buzz is only able to record a total of 4 more NCAA tourney wins in the next 7 years.

Well, I appreciate you clarifying what you meant.  You obviously see things differently.  I value conference titles, regular season wins, post season berths, and post season wins....not just post season wins.  That's all gravy and a crapshoot in my mind.

I will never understand the viewpoint that Wade was responsible for all four Final Four wins.  I'm happy to send you the DVDs of each game that will conclusively show that is not the case at all, but it fits your argument and that's why you are making it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Be careful, jmayer. Having the intelligence to connect the rather obvious dots may get you accused of playing mind reader or psychiatrist by Chicos.

Oh, the intelligence to determine what someone is thinking or what their motivation is?  Sorry, Sell that to muni fund buyer.  You assume you know what someone is doing or thinking, and you apply that filter to make it fit your argument.  Nothing more....but I am glad you think you have the ability to determine that in people.  Quite a skill, even if it is imagined in your own mind.

[brewcity77]

As a neutral observer, I simply can't see how this discussion is still going. Discounting the Final Four team is simply stupid. Giving Buzz credit
for 7 years of work when for all we know he will leave for greener pastures next year is just as stupid.

I love Buzz. I am much happier with him at the helm than I was with Crean. But Ners, your entire argument is based on deleting Tom Crean's greatest achievement and the proudest moment of my personal life as a Marquette fan and alum, and giving extra credit to Buzz that he has not yet earned.

Don't get me wrong, at the end of Buzz's career I hope we all say he was clearly the better coach and the 12 final fours and 5 championship banners in 30 years prove it, but we're not there yet. Until we are, you logically just don't have a leg to stand on.

[Lennys Tap]

Oh, the intelligence to determine what someone is thinking or what their motivation is?  Sorry, Sell that to muni fund buyer.  You assume you know what someone is doing or thinking, and you apply that filter to make it fit your argument.  Nothing more....but I am glad you think you have the ability to determine that in people.  Quite a skill, even if it is imagined in your own mind.

Give it a rest Chicos. I am but one of many on this board to connect the dots. Sell the idea that it takes a mind reader to one of your Direct TV subscribers. Better yet, include it in the basic package for free. An informed consumer knows you get what you pay for.

[Golden Avalanche]

You assume you know what someone is doing or thinking, and you apply that filter to make it fit your argument.  Nothing more....but I am glad you think you have the ability to determine that in people.  Quite a skill, even if it is imagined in your own mind.

He did that to me a few days ago. Fun crap.

[NersEllenson]

As a neutral observer, I simply can't see how this discussion is still going. Discounting the Final Four team is simply stupid. Giving Buzz credit
for 7 years of work when for all we know he will leave for greener pastures next year is just as stupid.

I love Buzz. I am much happier with him at the helm than I was with Crean. But Ners, your entire argument is based on deleting Tom Crean's greatest achievement and the proudest moment of my personal life as a Marquette fan and alum, and giving extra credit to Buzz that he has not yet earned.

Don't get me wrong, at the end of Buzz's career I hope we all say he was clearly the better coach and the 12 final fours and 5 championship banners in 30 years prove it, but we're not there yet. Until we are, you logically just don't have a leg to stand on.

Fair enough..but if Buzz takes us to 12 final fours and 5 championships in 30 years..I'll be pushing for them to rename the Al Center.  Lastly, sure, I am extrapolating a bit by assuming Buzz will be here for another 7 years, but based on the recruiting class we just signed - if they all stay for 4 years, and Buzz is able to add a few decent players each year  -I see no way this team doesn't make the tourney every year, and isn't capable of infliciting some serious damage.  Maybe it isn't fair to take away D-Wade, as Crean did sign him - yet I guess I cannot laud that as a great recruiting win, soncidering our competition was Bradley.  Now if a player of Newbill or Gardner's caliber goes on to be a Top 5 NBA player within 2-3 years of leaving MU..and either of them are the main catalyst toward taking us on a Final Four run - I will reletn and deflect some of the credit.  If it is Vander Blue or Jamail Jones leading the way..not so much as those two were highly sought after recruits that the former regime was largely unable to land

[ChicosBailBonds]

As a neutral observer, I simply can't see how this discussion is still going. Discounting the Final Four team is simply stupid.

Of course it is, but these are the silly games that are played.

Remember, it was "lucky" that Dwyane Wade came to MU (oh, and chose to stay here 3 years and still engages with his "lucky" coach constantly), but it's not lucky to land a head coaching gig in the Big East and have 4 of the top 8 scorers in Marquette history on the roster waiting for you, none of which you recruited.

That, in this strange world that some people here  live in, is how luck is defined.


The bending and twisting of facts and reality are sometime at mind altering states here.


Yet, that's the mentality with some here....and that's before any of the mind reading psychiatrists even weigh in.

LOL

[ChicosBailBonds]

He did that to me a few days ago. Fun crap.

He mind reads, connects dots and will throw out a few P/E ratios at the same time.  Very skilled.

By the way Lenny, I know one stock..cough...at a 10 year high today.  Hope you bought low and have been riding it the last year plus, would have paid off very handsomely for you and your clients.

[El Duderino]

Fair enough..but if Buzz takes us to 12 final fours and 5 championships in 30 years..I'll be pushing for them to rename the Al Center.  Lastly, sure, I am extrapolating a bit by assuming Buzz will be here for another 7 years, but based on the recruiting class we just signed - if they all stay for 4 years, and Buzz is able to add a few decent players each year  -I see no way this team doesn't make the tourney every year, and isn't capable of infliciting some serious damage.  Maybe it isn't fair to take away D-Wade, as Crean did sign him - yet I guess I cannot laud that as a great recruiting win, soncidering our competition was Bradley.Now if a player of Newbill or Gardner's caliber goes on to be a Top 5 NBA player within 2-3 years of leaving MU..and either of them are the main catalyst toward taking us on a Final Four run - I will reletn and deflect some of the credit.  If it is Vander Blue or Jamail Jones leading the way..not so much as those two were highly sought after recruits that the former regime was largely unable to land

Why should it matter in the slightest that Crean didn't have to beat out national powers to land Wade?

Not only is that utterly irrelevant in a bottom line business like sports are, the Wade situation could also be stated that Crean deserves extra credit for seeing talent in Wade that so many other colleges didn't by not recruiting him harder. Are college coaches only supposed to get a bunch of credit if they get to a Final Four or farther if they did that with a 4-5 star recruit or two leading the way? If though a coach strikes it big by seeing talent in and then signing a kid that was vastly undervalued by the big schools, that coach's accomplishment should be diminished as pure luck/fluke? What kind of bizarre logic is that? That coach doesn't deserve big props for seeing the big talent in a kid that other coaches from big schools missed?

Let's say for a hypothetical, Vander Blue only had a mediocre career at Marquette, but Newbill became a big time player that was the key cog in getting us to a Final Four. The accomplishment by Buzz of getting us to a Final Four should be judged as lesser because the not highly recruited Newbill lead the way instead of the 5 star Vander Blue?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Let's say for a hypothetical, Vander Blue only had a mediocre career at Marquette, but Newbill became a big time player that was the key cog in getting us to a Final Four. The accomplishment by Buzz of getting us to a Final Four should be judged as lesser because the not highly recruited Newbill lead the way instead of the 5 star Vander Blue?

I won't be impressed if this happens. It will mean Buzz just got lucky.

Also, if you take away the 77 title, the 1970 NIT title, and the home undefeated streak, Buzz has already accomplished as much as Al. All of you McGuire lovers/apologists need to wake up. Buzz is the man!

[NersEllenson]

I won't be impressed if this happens. It will mean Buzz just got lucky.

Also, if you take away the 77 title, the 1970 NIT title, and the home undefeated streak, Buzz has already accomplished as much as Al. All of you McGuire lovers/apologists need to wake up. Buzz is the man!

The results will all play out in the next 5-7 years..we'll see how Buzz does at MU, we'll see how Tom Crean does at IU.  My money is on Buzz still having a high-major job (hopefully still at MU), while Tom Crean very well may have been relieved of his duties at IU.  If TC cannot land some of the major talent in Indiana in the 2011-2012 class, that will be his deathbed.  There is ZERO excuse for him to not clean up in the state of Indiana, given the legacy of that program.  His recruiting class for 2010 is pretty darn pathetic given all of the playing time available and stature of the IU brand/program.

And yes, if Newbill leads MU to a Final Four, and goes on to be a Top 5 NBA player within 2 years of graduation, I'll say Buzz got pretty darn lucky in landing him.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The results will all play out in the next 5-7 years..we'll see how Buzz does at MU, we'll see how Tom Crean does at IU.  My money is on Buzz still having a high-major job (hopefully still at MU), while Tom Crean very well may have been relieved of his duties at IU.  If TC cannot land some of the major talent in Indiana in the 2011-2012 class, that will be his deathbed.  There is ZERO excuse for him to not clean up in the state of Indiana, given the legacy of that program.  His recruiting class for 2010 is pretty darn pathetic given all of the playing time available and stature of the IU brand/program.

And yes, if Newbill leads MU to a Final Four, and goes on to be a Top 5 NBA player within 2 years of graduation, I'll say Buzz got pretty darn lucky in landing him.

I think this is where you and I see things differently.

Tom Crean at IU has ZERO impact for me.

I appreciate the success he had at MU. I don't need to validate that appreciation by watching him at IU.

If Crean wins 27 National titles in a row, it has exactly ZERO effect on how much I will like Buzz Williams. My appreciation for Buzz comes from his own performance and personalty.

When Deane got fired, it didn't make me like Crean more. When Oneil loses his job at USC, it won't make me like Deane more.

For me, those things just aren't connected, at all.

I really like Buzz, and I like the way things are headed. That has NOTHING to do with IU. NOTHING.

[muchalktalk]

Ners,

You continue to say thatCrean got lucky to land Wade, but Buzz had to beat out big name schools to get Blue.  Based on the following quote from Blue in an interview with Rosiak, I will ask again.  Did Buzz get lucky with Blue because he had a falling out with WI, and he wanted to stay close to home?

What did your final list of prospective schools really look like? Reports had you also considering Florida, Arizona and UCLA. "I only had two visits set up, and the reason I did that was because I knew I didn't want to leave my mom. So I made sure I made it between Marquette and Wisconsin, and basically that was it. I made sure I let everybody know that it was between Marquette and Wisconsin. The only thing I had done with Marquette (prior to the visit) was talk to some of the coaches. I'd never experienced Marquette. I'd been on campus a lot at UW, and I experienced it all. For me, just being at Marquette and actually witnessing it and going to school, being around the campus fit the bill. It was somewhere I knew I wanted to be. And I want to play in the Big East, too, so I had to make it happen."

Again, I am not knocking Buzz.   

[NersEllenson]

I think this is where you and I see things differently.

Tom Crean at IU has ZERO impact for me.

I appreciate the success he had at MU. I don't need to validate that appreciation by watching him at IU.

If Crean wins 27 National titles in a row, it has exactly ZERO effect on how much I will like Buzz Williams. My appreciation for Buzz comes from his own performance and personalty.

When Deane got fired, it didn't make me like Crean more. When Oneil loses his job at USC, it won't make me like Deane more.

For me, those things just aren't connected, at all.

I really like Buzz, and I like the way things are headed. That has NOTHING to do with IU. NOTHING.

Fair enough - I respect your viewpoint as stated...and you make valid points.  This whole thread has snowballed out of control.  I guess there is no point in continuing to belabor the TC/Buzz Williams debate.  We all know where each other stand on the matter.  I like Buzz moving forward, others aren't ready to crown him our next great coach.  Fair enough, again.  Should be fun to see how it all plays out moving forward.  Hopefully Buzz will stick around for another 7 years so we can objectively compare/contrast the accomplishments of both.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Fair enough - I respect your viewpoint as stated...and you make valid points.  This whole thread has snowballed out of control.  I guess there is no point in continuing to belabor the TC/Buzz Williams debate.  We all know where each other stand on the matter.  I like Buzz moving forward, others aren't ready to crown him our next great coach.  Fair enough, again.  Should be fun to see how it all plays out moving forward.  Hopefully Buzz will stick around for another 7 years so we can objectively compare/contrast the accomplishments of both.

Not to nitpick, but one point of clarification (for me), I'm not waiting or excited to do a comparison of the 2 coaches at any point (even after year 9).

I know part of fandom and forums is comparisons and random speculation, but I just don't see the value in this comparison because the topic can become so polarizing.

I'm not trying to climb the high moral ground, just saying that it only seems to create a debate that becomes more about Crean than about anything else.

Buzz has been good so far. I'm excited for the future. (the letters C.R.E.A.N. don't have anything to do with that.).

[ChicosBailBonds]

Fair enough - I respect your viewpoint as stated...and you make valid points.  This whole thread has snowballed out of control.  I guess there is no point in continuing to belabor the TC/Buzz Williams debate.  We all know where each other stand on the matter.  I like Buzz moving forward, others aren't ready to crown him our next great coach.  Fair enough, again.  Should be fun to see how it all plays out moving forward.  Hopefully Buzz will stick around for another 7 years so we can objectively compare/contrast the accomplishments of both.

Do you think you had anything to do with it snowballing?  When you claim that people love the ex-coach or any other charges like that?  I agree with what 2002 said, appreciate what TC did for MU when he was at MU.  Who gives a rip what he does elsewhere.  The only people that do are those that have a hard on for him to fail, that's the only reason.

Crean did a very good job and that reign ended officially this year with last of his players playing (Hayward, Cubillan, Acker).  Buzz, so far, is doing a very good job and the future looks bright (sans the conference potential implosion).  Appreciate them both and but don't be surprised if a thread gets out of control when you rip on others for valid viewpoints, or say one thing only to be caught in a 180 degree position with your own words.

[Lennys Tap]

Do you think you had anything to do with it snowballing?  When you claim that people love the ex-coach or any other charges like that?  I agree with what 2002 said, appreciate what TC did for MU when he was at MU.  Who gives a rip what he does elsewhere.  The only people that do are those that have a hard on for him to fail, that's the only reason.

Crean did a very good job and that reign ended officially this year with last of his players playing (Hayward, Cubillan, Acker).  Buzz, so far, is doing a very good job and the future looks bright (sans the conference potential implosion).  Appreciate them both and but don't be surprised if a thread gets out of control when you rip on others for valid viewpoints, or say one thing only to be caught in a 180 degree position with your own words.

Who gives a rip what he does elsewhere? Based on your giddiness when he got his third Big 10 win last year and your multple posts predicting his eventual success at IU, I'd say you.

But it's comforting to know that you never rip on people with valid viewpoints. On behalf of the rest of the board, thanks for your patience.

[NersEllenson]

Do you think you had anything to do with it snowballing?  When you claim that people love the ex-coach or any other charges like that?  I agree with what 2002 said, appreciate what TC did for MU when he was at MU.  Who gives a rip what he does elsewhere.  The only people that do are those that have a hard on for him to fail, that's the only reason.

Crean did a very good job and that reign ended officially this year with last of his players playing (Hayward, Cubillan, Acker).  Buzz, so far, is doing a very good job and the future looks bright (sans the conference potential implosion).  Appreciate them both and but don't be surprised if a thread gets out of control when you rip on others for valid viewpoints, or say one thing only to be caught in a 180 degree position with your own words.

Actually Chicos - I feel 84 had a lot to do with it snowballing, just as much as I did.  It probably is in your best, self-serving interest, to not give a rip what Tom Crean does elsewhere  -as so far the evidence isn't very good.  And lastly, I didn't really rip anyone else for valid viewpoints - but 84 and yourself like to twist and distort the points I do make to saisfy your own agendas and opinions - which are quite different than mine, and therefore the disconnect  between us.

[Golden Avalanche]

Actually Chicos - I feel 84 had a lot to do with it snowballing, just as much as I did.  It probably is in your best, self-serving interest, to not give a rip what Tom Crean does elsewhere  -as so far the evidence isn't very good.  And lastly, I didn't really rip anyone else for valid viewpoints - but 84 and yourself like to twist and distort the points I do make to saisfy your own agendas and opinions - which are quite different than mine, and therefore the disconnect  between us.

You ripped me when I wrote that a kid who has qualifying grades will go to prep school and when I wrote another player will leave the program.

Pretty valid viewpoints if you've kept up on your reading in between the posting.

[NersEllenson]

You ripped me when I wrote that a kid who has qualifying grades will go to prep school and when I wrote another player will leave the program.

Pretty valid viewpoints if you've kept up on your reading in between the posting.

Please find where I ripped you for the above?  I reviewed my post history and see nothing of the sort.  Go take a look for yourself - there is not 1 post that rips you for the above comments.  I called you out for basically trying to say that Buzz is keeping the program at a Crean-level (which is how the whole mess started), when you wrote that we haven't elevated our stature under Buzz (gee the guy's only been on the job 2 years, what do you expect?)...and that we got favorable matchups in the NCAA tourney under Buzz and couldn't capitalize. 

If I missed a post of mine in my history for the qualifying grade person/player leaving the program - my apologies, but I did do a very thorough review of my history.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Who gives a rip what he does elsewhere? Based on your giddiness when he got his third Big 10 win last year and your multple posts predicting his eventual success at IU, I'd say you.

But it's comforting to know that you never rip on people with valid viewpoints. On behalf of the rest of the board, thanks for your patience.

Show me where I ever started threads on the subject.  I didn't (or haven't in years), but yes I would respond to stupid, ridiculous crap that was factually incorrect in other threads to set the record straight.  You make it sound like I wasn parading around starting threads saying how good IU was going to be when, ironically, there have been literally hundreds started here by others with the opposite messaging and with no purpose whatsoever other than to get some of you to pop the Cialis.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Actually Chicos - I feel 84 had a lot to do with it snowballing, just as much as I did.  It probably is in your best, self-serving interest, to not give a rip what Tom Crean does elsewhere  -as so far the evidence isn't very good.  And lastly, I didn't really rip anyone else for valid viewpoints - but 84 and yourself like to twist and distort the points I do make to saisfy your own agendas and opinions - which are quite different than mine, and therefore the disconnect  between us.

We don't distort anything Ners, we copy verbatim your comments.  How is that distorting? 

[NersEllenson]

We don't distort anything Ners, we copy verbatim your comments.  How is that distorting? 

I'm not going to reiterate, yet, once again how 84 distorted my points.  That's been done already.  Maybe if you would actually read what I've written - you wouldn't need to ask for a refresher course on how (primarily 84) distorted many of my original points.  Give it a rest...I thought all you Orange County dudes were a lot more laid back??  Enjoy the nice weather and beaches, and well taking a stroll along the ocean, simply recite the following meditation:  "Tom Crean was good for Marquette, Buzz Williams will be great for Marquette.  I will stop being adverserial in my relationship toward Ners and Lenny's Tap."  My thank you in advance.   

[Lennys Tap]

Show me where I ever started threads on the subject.  I didn't (or haven't in years), but yes I would respond to stupid, ridiculous crap that was factually incorrect in other threads to set the record straight.  You make it sound like I wasn parading around starting threads saying how good IU was going to be when, ironically, there have been literally hundreds started here by others with the opposite messaging and with no purpose whatsoever other than to get some of you to pop the Cialis.

You have 7000+ posts. THOUSANDS more than anyone else on this board. It must be hard damn work setting all of us "stupids" straight. Thanks for your tireless and selfless efforts.

[Lennys Tap]

We don't distort anything Ners, we copy verbatim your comments.  How is that distorting? 

When did you and 84 become a we? Are congratulations in order?

[ChicosBailBonds]

You have 7000+ posts. THOUSANDS more than anyone else on this board. It must be hard damn work setting all of us "stupids" straight. Thanks for your tireless and selfless efforts.

Honestly, it's not hard at all, you do a great job of shining the light on yourself Lenny.  Better than anything I could ever do.

[ChicosBailBonds]

When did you and 84 become a we? Are congratulations in order?

Oh the list is much bigger than just 84 and I.  Congratulations are always in order.  SMOOCH

[Murffieus]

Buzz is a better coach than Crean----that said, to this point TC has accomplished more at MU than Buzz has.