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Author Topic: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.  (Read 40218 times)

Warrior3211

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2010, 04:31:18 PM »
This is terrible news seeing as I saw Jerel with Vander on campus last weekend

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2010, 04:38:17 PM »
This is terrible news seeing as I saw Jerel with Vander on campus last weekend

Rel is Blue's dealer.   ::)

jimmyrizzle

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2010, 05:10:44 PM »
BOTH marijuana and its byproducts are banned substances under the NBA/NBPA Anti-Drug program.

Rookies are subject to random testing 3X during the regular season; vets are subject to random testing during the pre-season. Everyone can be tested for cause at any point.

Not sure if an NBA GM will pull the trigger (there are so many variables to consider). In any case, marijuana is a banned substance in the NBA.

More info here: http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php?title=NBA/NBPA_Anti-Drug_Program_Prohibited_Substances
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 05:13:49 PM by jimmyrizzle »

DawsonCreekFillanderer

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2010, 05:16:37 PM »
Correct...no banner, but we should definitely blame Tom Crean for his actions.

The question must be asked: Who recruited this Jerel to Marquette? The blame for this outrage rests with the man who brought him to our campus.

WellsstreetWanderer

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2010, 05:19:21 PM »
It doesn't bode well for his future in basketball. At least he has a degree to fall back on.
I wish him well

Canadian Dimes

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2010, 06:33:19 PM »
Really? Ever? You must not have been watching MU ball for very long...or ever. Jerel is far from having the lowest basketball IQ and your angry insulting post to a former MU great is classless.  

Are we really doing the "he must have been on drugs to make that decision" argument/joke? Very original...the classic smoking weed is the reason for every mistake and bad decision.

My god, MU played a very fast-pace driving style of offense that lends itself to making multiple turnovers. I agree Jerel always had a problem with deciding when to dish the ball or finish the drive (more an early career thing), but the lack of your IQ in that post does not allow you to make such a grand distinctive judgment on the player and person McNeal was/is after they are gone.

actaully i said those things for the 4 years he was there as well.  The guy did at least 5 things agame that anyone of which you could simply say "boy that was really stupid"  As afreshman you hoped he would grow out of it, as a soph too.  Never changed.  The last 30 seconds first on offense then on defense against Villanova in the BE were simply  amicrocsm of his decison making.  Simply abyssmal.  Yes he made many good plays but he made ten dumb ones for every dumb one other good MU players have made.  If you can think of other Mu players that were worse in that aspect I would be willing to listen. 

Aughnanure

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2010, 07:48:10 PM »
actaully i said those things for the 4 years he was there as well.  The guy did at least 5 things agame that anyone of which you could simply say "boy that was really stupid"  As afreshman you hoped he would grow out of it, as a soph too.  Never changed.  The last 30 seconds first on offense then on defense against Villanova in the BE were simply  amicrocsm of his decison making.  Simply abyssmal.  Yes he made many good plays but he made ten dumb ones for every dumb one other good MU players have made.  If you can think of other Mu players that were worse in that aspect I would be willing to listen. 

I understand your criticism but think it is unwarranted and unnecessary to rip a former great player - and yes he was GREAT. I simply think you have a warped view of the number of bad decisions he made. Did he make a lot that were frustrating? of course, every player does and Im willing to concede he did more than his fair share, but not 1 good play to every 10, just not even close even if it was a purposeful exaggeration. You are basically arguing that Jerel did more harm than good as a player for MU and that is just not supported by anything. Frustrating it may be to look back on, but you may be remembering selectively  (as fans we oftentimes forget how we won games and dwell on how we lost).

Additionally, I would say Niv Berkowitz was pretty atrocious as a decision maker. However, it is not a good comparison to put Jerel against other players during that time (i didnt really pay attention to MU until 2001ish) who didnt have the ball in their hands and weren't relied upon for offense.
“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

Canadian Dimes

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2010, 10:45:29 AM »
If you want to get your panties in a bunch and put words such as "he did more harm than good" into my mouth than that is your choice.  I never said that.  What i did say was he made really really stupid decisons way way way too often.  He literally made 3-4-5 decisons every single game that were absolute head scratchers.  he types of plays that Mo Or Cubillan made maybe half a dozen or less the entire season.  Again as a Freshman you figure he will eleiminate them.  But as his career wnet on and he made statement like I play agrressive and those things happen.  Sorry but that is incorrect.  Playing agressive and making dumb plays are two completely separate issues. 
To use a comparison, DJO had his times where he needed to be more so but was at times an agressive player for us, how many really dumb plays did he make agame as a first year soph?  He turned the ball over and made physical mistakes but did he make 3-4-5 plays a game where you would ask a 6th grader what were possibly thinking?  No he did not. 
And obviously you disagree but i said it for 3 years now the reason Jerel will not be inthe NBA is becuase of his deciosn making.  He is skilled enough and talented enough otherwise. If Mu kept career TO stats he would be the career leader by an unbeleivable margin, unfortunately most of them being mental not physical.

looked up some numbers of some ballhandlers/scorers for Mu in recent years.

wes matthews had 275 career turnovers
cordell Henry as a PG had 291
Dom James as a Pg had 305 and reduced his high from 89 to 54
Diener had 230 and reeduced his high from 74 to 58
Brian wardle had 268, 68 as a senior

Jerel had 436!! 117 as a fresh...to 103 as a senior.  His 4 years he had more turnovers in each year than any of these othe rplayers listed ever had in ayear.

Again I liked Jerel he was an MU guy.  My frsutration tho was the vast majority of those turnovers were purely mental and his inability to eliminate them cost Mu games and it ultimately cost him a chance in the NBA.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2010, 10:58:46 AM »
Actually, Buzz should get all the blame since he got all the accolades for Wes Matthew's NBA career.

Not to threadjack, but a friend of mine and I were talking the other day about Wes.

You know who really deserves credit for his success (other than Wes' own hard work), Jerry Sloan.

Certainly Buzz helped Wes his senior year. Wes certainly helped himself at the draft camps, he worked his way in the 2nd round.

But, if we are insisting on giving a coach credit (which was a hot topic around here for a few days), it wasn't until Wes played for Jerry Sloan that Wes really started to exceed expectations.

 
Nobody could predict Wes would get as much run as he has. I have to credit his current coach for a lot of that. Sloan's managed to take a 2nd round pick and help make him into a solid NBA player. 

If anybody has really "unleashed" Wes, it really might be Jerry Sloan*


*please note this is not an anti-buzz statement, but rather a pro-sloan statement. I like Buzz a lot, and I think he helped Wes a lot.

damuts222

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2010, 11:09:48 AM »
 McNeal also led MU in steals pretty much every year he was at Marquette, he did have a lot of turnovers. By his senior year he seemed to focus more on offense than he did on his defense which was exposed on several occasions late in games (ie Nova game). McNeal was a hell of a player for Marquette and I wish him the best as an alum, no matter how good or bad he was as a basketball player. He deserves the benefit of the doubt.
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cheebs09

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2010, 11:11:22 AM »
You can say the same thing about D-Wade too. He was very good at Marquette, but he took it to a completely new level once he hit the pros. He was good in the pros his first year, but really broke out in the playoffs of his second year, Finals especially. I think a lot of it can be attributed to very good coaching at the pro level, but most importantly the amount of extra time you have. There are no limitations on how much you can practice in the NBA, you don't have to go to class or study halls. Basketball is pretty much your full time job.

I think Buzz did a lot for Wesley's career, also I think Crean did as well. Wesley seems like the perfect player for a Sloan team so I'm sure Sloan has done great things to help him. There are a lot of factors that go into it, not just a certain coach and many things outside of the coaches, like time available.  

StillWarriors

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2010, 11:12:00 AM »
Not to threadjack, but a friend of mine and I were talking the other day about Wes.

You know who really deserves credit for his success (other than Wes' own hard work), Jerry Sloan.

Certainly Buzz helped Wes his senior year. Wes certainly helped himself at the draft camps, he worked his way in the 2nd round.

But, if we are insisting on giving a coach credit (which was a hot topic around here for a few days), it wasn't until Wes played for Jerry Sloan that Wes really started to exceed expectations.

 
Nobody could predict Wes would get as much run as he has. I have to credit his current coach for a lot of that. Sloan's managed to take a 2nd round pick and help make him into a solid NBA player. 

If anybody has really "unleashed" Wes, it really might be Jerry Sloan*


*please note this is not an anti-buzz statement, but rather a pro-sloan statement. I like Buzz a lot, and I think he helped Wes a lot.

Sloan definitely deserves credit for giving Wes a chance. I think a lot of coaches wouldn't even give someone under the radar like Wes a real look, much less start him on a quality club.

By the way, Wes' story is even better than having worked his way into the second round. He was undrafted.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2010, 11:14:06 AM »

By the way, Wes' story is even better than having worked his way into the second round. He was undrafted.

That's right!

I'm an idiot.

Anyways, back to the normal Jerel smoking weed debates.


PuertoRicanNightmare

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2010, 11:15:11 AM »
I agree with Canadian Dimes and it is for this exact reason that this year's team was much, much more entertaining to watch than any team in the past 6 years. This team was a pleasure, the previous 4 (plus the two NIT years) were just frustrating.

PuertoRicanNightmare

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2010, 11:17:47 AM »
The conversation 2002mualum and his friend were having about who deserves credit for Wesley's success must have been absolutely riveting. Wish I could have been there.

Aughnanure

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2010, 11:24:52 AM »
If you want to get your panties in a bunch and put words such as "he did more harm than good" into my mouth than that is your choice.  I never said that.  What i did say was he made really really stupid decisons way way way too often.  He literally made 3-4-5 decisons every single game that were absolute head scratchers.  he types of plays that Mo Or Cubillan made maybe half a dozen or less the entire season.  Again as a Freshman you figure he will eleiminate them.  But as his career wnet on and he made statement like I play agrressive and those things happen.  Sorry but that is incorrect.  Playing agressive and making dumb plays are two completely separate issues. 
To use a comparison, DJO had his times where he needed to be more so but was at times an agressive player for us, how many really dumb plays did he make agame as a first year soph?  He turned the ball over and made physical mistakes but did he make 3-4-5 plays a game where you would ask a 6th grader what were possibly thinking?  No he did not. 
And obviously you disagree but i said it for 3 years now the reason Jerel will not be inthe NBA is becuase of his deciosn making.  He is skilled enough and talented enough otherwise. If Mu kept career TO stats he would be the career leader by an unbeleivable margin, unfortunately most of them being mental not physical.

looked up some numbers of some ballhandlers/scorers for Mu in recent years.

wes matthews had 275 career turnovers
cordell Henry as a PG had 291
Dom James as a Pg had 305 and reduced his high from 89 to 54
Diener had 230 and reeduced his high from 74 to 58
Brian wardle had 268, 68 as a senior

Jerel had 436!! 117 as a fresh...to 103 as a senior.  His 4 years he had more turnovers in each year than any of these othe rplayers listed ever had in ayear.

Again I liked Jerel he was an MU guy.  My frsutration tho was the vast majority of those turnovers were purely mental and his inability to eliminate them cost Mu games and it ultimately cost him a chance in the NBA.


I did not put those words in your mouth. When you say that Jerel would make 10 'dumb' play to every other's players 1 'dumb' play you are insinuating that having Jerel out on the court did more harm than good for the team.

Secondly, I never disagreed with the fact that Jerel turned the ball over way too much, but you just are only looking at that stat as a way to evaluate Jerel. Did you take into account how many steals or assists he had as well and in general his great defensive play?  

Also, are you seriously saying that Mo and Cooby only had 6 bad turnovers the whole year? Thats completely making stuff up. There were many times in games (and late in games) that Mo would make very poor decisions, especially trying to drive in the lane. I actually defend Mo and Cooby from those posters all year who came on started another bashing Acker/Cubillan thread after a loss or bad play. They did extraordinarily well in their roles, but don't tell me that they didn't have their fair share of bad decision making. Again, they were role players and Jerel was a go-to guy who to a fault never backed down or thought he couldnt make a play.  

It would have been interesting to see Buzz coach Jerel for more than one year, I think his style of play may have helped Jerel over time to settle in and make better decisions (like making the extra pass instead of shooting the ball anyways on a drive while being triple teamed). Crean too often just let Jerel go wild and because none of the Big 3 were great outside shooters for most of their career, driving the ball into the lane became way too important and predictable in our offense.

And guess what? EVERYONE was saying for 4 years Jerel turned the ball over too much. But to rip a great player so veraciously after he is gone is what I took offense to in your post, not that Jerel didn't have that problem.  I thought b/c of his D Jerel may have gotten a chance in the NBA, but playing in a controlled role (like Wes is doing) was never his strength.
“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2010, 11:29:01 AM »
The conversation 2002mualum and his friend were having about who deserves credit for Wesley's success must have been absolutely riveting. Wish I could have been there.

Jeez.

What did I do to deserve that?

Canadian Dimes

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2010, 12:06:32 PM »
I did not put those words in your mouth. When you say that Jerel would make 10 'dumb' play to every other's players 1 'dumb' play you are insinuating that having Jerel out on the court did more harm than good for the team.

Secondly, I never disagreed with the fact that Jerel turned the ball over way too much, but you just are only looking at that stat as a way to evaluate Jerel. Did you take into account how many steals or assists he had as well and in general his great defensive play?  

Also, are you seriously saying that Mo and Cooby only had 6 bad turnovers the whole year? Thats completely making stuff up. There were many times in games (and late in games) that Mo would make very poor decisions, especially trying to drive in the lane. I actually defend Mo and Cooby from those posters all year who came on started another bashing Acker/Cubillan thread after a loss or bad play. They did extraordinarily well in their roles, but don't tell me that they didn't have their fair share of bad decision making. Again, they were role players and Jerel was a go-to guy who to a fault never backed down or thought he couldnt make a play.  

It would have been interesting to see Buzz coach Jerel for more than one year, I think his style of play may have helped Jerel over time to settle in and make better decisions (like making the extra pass instead of shooting the ball anyways on a drive while being triple teamed). Crean too often just let Jerel go wild and because none of the Big 3 were great outside shooters for most of their career, driving the ball into the lane became way too important and predictable in our offense.

And guess what? EVERYONE was saying for 4 years Jerel turned the ball over too much. But to rip a great player so veraciously after he is gone is what I took offense to in your post, not that Jerel didn't have that problem.  I thought b/c of his D Jerel may have gotten a chance in the NBA, but playing in a controlled role (like Wes is doing) was never his strength.

you struggle with comprehension I stated "dumb " plays.  those are mental mistakes.  Mistakes that should be eliminated especially over time.  If again you want to say that the threrfore hurt Mu then so be it.  

Additonally, you canot comprehend menatl mistakes.  Just becuase you run down the court and charge on a 3 on 1 does not mean you will or should get more steals.  They do not go hand in hand.  
Unfortunately for Mcneal out of his 436 turnovers most of them were mental, he was not physically handicapped in most of his turnover situations.  And as I think back of Diener 230 i rarely said , "what wqas he thinking that was really dumb", but with Jerel i was more often than not thinking that so yes  I will stick with my actaul comment of compared to other Mu great players he made about 10 dumb plays to every one the others made.  AMybe you have never coached or played and simply have no clue of what types of turnovers are mental and what type are physical; time, score situation, percentages, angles...etc.etc..  So i am most likely speaking Greek to you.

Oh by the way acker had 41 To's this year versus Jerels 103 last year, cubi had 34, and Butler had 39.  About a 3:1 ratio.  Now factor in how many times you could say those 3's turnoers were menatal and i would stand corrected.  As another poster staed this team was so fun to wacth becuase they really valued the ball and i probably said "what the heck was he thinking" about 1 time this year for every 10 times i said it last year.  it's too bad you have no clue what i am talking about  
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 12:09:10 PM by Canadian Dimes »

GGGG

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2010, 12:14:43 PM »
McNeal also led MU in steals pretty much every year he was at Marquette, he did have a lot of turnovers. By his senior year he seemed to focus more on offense than he did on his defense which was exposed on several occasions late in games (ie Nova game). McNeal was a hell of a player for Marquette and I wish him the best as an alum, no matter how good or bad he was as a basketball player. He deserves the benefit of the doubt.


Steals can be a completely misleading statistic.  Oftentimes steals leaders are players who take a lot of chances versus those who play a lot of straight up defense.  So when I see that McNeal is a leader in steals as well as turnovers, my initial thought is "reckless."

WellsstreetWanderer

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2010, 12:53:00 PM »
La Times today states Wes "fills a hole " in Utah defense and is shooting 39% from 3 point range. defensive weakness is Okufor and Boozer. Wes continues to reap accolades.

MUBurrow

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2010, 01:19:53 PM »
Quote
Unfortunately for Mcneal out of his 436 turnovers most of them were mental, he was not physically handicapped in most of his turnover situations.  And as I think back of Diener 230 i rarely said , "what wqas he thinking that was really dumb", but with Jerel i was more often than not thinking that so yes  I will stick with my actaul comment of compared to other Mu great players he made about 10 dumb plays to every one the others made.  AMybe you have never coached or played and simply have no clue of what types of turnovers are mental and what type are physical; time, score situation, percentages, angles...etc.etc..  So i am most likely speaking Greek to you.

I will absolutely take the bet that most of these turnovers were mental.  That is unabashedly false.  Jerel's job was to push tempo. His job was to try to create out of nothing.  To point at the leading scorer in program history and say that his high turnover ratio was due to poor mental judgment is preposterous hindsight.  Did he have some headscratch plays every game? Of course he did - you don't put the ball into the basket more times than anyone else in history without taking those kinds of chances.  I'm not debating with you that everyone got a little frustrated with him at times, but the stats alone drastically take the the games out of context.  To say that the turnovers that afterwords looked bad were mental lapses is false - they were calculated risks that he and the team took because of his offensive skill more than anything.
And comparing Jerel to Diener in terms of the kind of player they were and the turnovers that should be expected of them? Please.

willie warrior

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2010, 04:40:29 PM »
Well maybe that explains his "dopey" decision to shoot the ball so early against Villanova in last year's BET.
His "dopiest" decision was failure to play D on the guy who scored the bunny to win the game against us in the BEast tourney, while Jerel was wondering where he could get some munchies.
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Canadian Dimes

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2010, 08:42:24 PM »
His "dopiest" decision was failure to play D on the guy who scored the bunny to win the game against us in the BEast tourney, while Jerel was wondering where he could get some munchies.

was it really dopier than taking a 30 footer with tons of time left on the clock that even allowed Nova the possesion?

AlienWarrior

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2010, 09:04:17 PM »
Is there a league in Holland?

Aughnanure

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Re: Bummer: Jerel kicked off Belgian team.
« Reply #74 on: April 09, 2010, 11:27:56 AM »
you struggle with comprehension I stated "dumb " plays.  those are mental mistakes.  Mistakes that should be eliminated especially over time.  If again you want to say that the threrfore hurt Mu then so be it.  

Additonally, you canot comprehend menatl mistakes.  Just becuase you run down the court and charge on a 3 on 1 does not mean you will or should get more steals.  They do not go hand in hand.  
Unfortunately for Mcneal out of his 436 turnovers most of them were mental, he was not physically handicapped in most of his turnover situations.  And as I think back of Diener 230 i rarely said , "what wqas he thinking that was really dumb", but with Jerel i was more often than not thinking that so yes  I will stick with my actaul comment of compared to other Mu great players he made about 10 dumb plays to every one the others made.  AMybe you have never coached or played and simply have no clue of what types of turnovers are mental and what type are physical; time, score situation, percentages, angles...etc.etc..  So i am most likely speaking Greek to you.

Oh by the way acker had 41 To's this year versus Jerels 103 last year, cubi had 34, and Butler had 39.  About a 3:1 ratio.  Now factor in how many times you could say those 3's turnoers were menatal and i would stand corrected.  As another poster staed this team was so fun to wacth becuase they really valued the ball and i probably said "what the heck was he thinking" about 1 time this year for every 10 times i said it last year.  it's too bad you have no clue what i am talking about  

Good job changing your original statement to Jerel made 10 dumb plays to every 1 other MU 'great' players made.  

Another good job on ripping McNeal for mental mistakes during strenuous basketball games but you still can't correctly spell, use any proper grammar or write in any way consistently to make a clear point. Would you call them mental mistakes or 'dumb' decisions because they are so very easy to correct?

Now, for personally insulting me as though I am some un-athletic grad who only watches and understand basketball through the TV I have to respond. I did not play basketball in HS, I was a varsity long-distance runner through HS instead. However your conclusion that only those who have played or coached basketball (I did play throughout my youth) could not understand aspects such as score situation, time and percentages is laughable. I love people who hold their sport in such high-esteem they act like no one could ever understand it the way they do. You are the announcer who says "wow! he had the presence of mind to grab the ball on the floor and put it back up into the basket" and believes it.

Guess what? Basketball is not that complicated, the rules and aspects of it are not some complex creation that is unlike anything else seen in the world of sports. Are there some aspects of it I may not understand as well as other people do? Sure. But to act as though it is some foreign language is a joke and so is your insult.

My dad was an all-state basketball player, played for JUCO, coached JUCO and was offered to walk-on at Kansas State in the early 70s. So believe me when I say if I have gotten my fair share of coaching and basketball insight all my life.

Now, back to your actual point. I don't disagree the the majority of Jerel's turnovers were mental. I do disagree with you saying that an up-tempo running offense does not naturally lead to a high number of turnovers. In the pace we played then, you may be able to point to individual turnovers and say that was a mistake, but in total you have to conclude that the high pace was a significant component in the total numbers.

I also AGREE that this season was strangely more satisfactory than in year's past, but a lot of that has to do with the lower level of expectations, and high abundance of close heart attack-inducing and thus satisfying games.  

And to your other point, I think "oh my god that was dumb' all the time while watching any college basketball games......why? because its BASKETBALL, a sport you seem to be selectively remembering.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 11:43:18 AM by KCMarq09 »
“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence