Post realignment life- The Catholic Basketball league

[GOMU1104]

I know it gets brought up a lot, but quite honestly it should.  Marquette joining the big east was probally the single most important happening at the university since the 77 national championship (and i am not just talking about athletics)  The breaking up of the Big east would be the single most destructive thing, possibly ever, to happen to Marquette.  To be quite honest, I am shocked this isn't talked about more on this board.  Realignment is seeming more and more like an inevitability than a possibility, and if it does happen, all private school athletics could be dealt a crippling blow that might never be recovered from.  I know the same thread over and over is repetitive, but there needs to be more discussion on what Marquette would do post realignment, because I have a bad feeling this time next year the board will be flooded with this kind of talk.

Nothing you have said is anything new.  I dont know where you have been, but the changing landscape of college basketball is discussed here quite a bit.

I am just getting sick of seeing someone post about every week about this "Catholic Conference."

[KipsBayEagle]

Nothing you have said is anything new.  I dont know where you have been, but the changing landscape of college basketball is discussed here quite a bit.

I am just getting sick of seeing someone post about every week about this "Catholic Conference."

You could always just not read it than.  It is clearly labeled.

[GGGG]

I know it gets brought up a lot, but quite honestly it should.  Marquette joining the big east was probally the single most important happening at the university since the 77 national championship (and i am not just talking about athletics)  The breaking up of the Big east would be the single most destructive thing, possibly ever, to happen to Marquette.  To be quite honest, I am shocked this isn't talked about more on this board.  Realignment is seeming more and more like an inevitability than a possibility, and if it does happen, all private school athletics could be dealt a crippling blow that might never be recovered from.  I know the same thread over and over is repetitive, but there needs to be more discussion on what Marquette would do post realignment, because I have a bad feeling this time next year the board will be flooded with this kind of talk.

The break up of the Big East would be nowhere near as bad as us having to join the MCC in the late 1980s.  We'd be hurt no doubt, but *at worst* we would end up in some sort of revised, better version of the Atlantic 10.

[chapman]

I'll say now what I said then...I would rather have schools like Butler involved than to create some sort of "Catholic" limitation.

Agree completely.  Anyone not trying to be cute will realize that the fact that the school is Catholic is priority #87 when looking for conference affiliation behind things like level of competition, level of investment, geography, as well as 60 or 70 other variations of "money". 

[MUCam]

Agree completely.  Anyone not trying to be cute will realize that the fact that the school is Catholic is priority #87 when looking for conference affiliation behind things like level of competition, level of investment, geography, as well as 60 or 70 other variations of "money".  

Not to be cute, but level of competition + geography + 60 or 70 other variations of "money" = Catholic affiliation priority of #63 or #73; not #87.

Let's get our numbers right, champ. Catholic affiliation is clearly not priority #87.

[Hards Alumni]

Not to be cute, but level of competition + geography + 60 or 70 other variations of "money" = Catholic affiliation priority of #63 or #73; not #87.

Let's get our numbers right, champ. Catholic affiliation is clearly not priority #87.

fine, #86.

[fjg44]

We could always try and join the Big Televen.

Is there really another thread on this topic.  Can't worry about what hasn't happened.

[GOO]

I normally don't chim in on this topic.  However, I doubt that most conferences end up with more than 12 football teams.  Some of these football conferences may end up adding a couple of basketball only schools in certain markets.  We could end up in good shape that way, or good shape with a new Big East.  Either way, we are better off than we were a few years ago.  Marquette has put itself in a position to end up in a good situation either way.   Now, the current Big East is great for us, but I am not worried about falling off a cliff if/when the breakup happens.

[PBRme]

Why is there that much more money in the other conferences?  Just football revenue?

It's not just football, The big state schools have a lot of "following" by non-alums plus MU graduates 2-3000/yr max.  The average big televen graduates 10+ thousand.  Much bigger following for TV/radio/etc monies.  It's just the way it is.

[EdmontonBruiser]

St. Marysuote]

St MAry's would need to get a proper facility. They play in a high school gym, at best.

[Shack]

I think you underestimate the reputation of Marquette Basketball.

+1

The name Marquette is a very reputable brand whatever conference it's in. 

[Norm]

OK, this might be a long post, but here's the NCAA history of possible teams that Marquette could be align with if the Big East gets shaken up. I included some that haven't been mentioned lately - mostly the private universities in the BE, A-10, MVC and Horizon. Some won't likely be considered, but I think it might be smart to try and grab a foothold in cities like Detroit and Pittsburgh if we do have to build a new conference.

Marquette University – Big East
Milwaukee, WI
Catholic – Jesuit
11,548 Students (8,048 undergraduates)
Facility: Bradley Center (19,000)
28 NCAA tournaments (2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2003, 2002, 1997, 1996, 1994, 1993, 1983, 1982, 1980, 1979, 1978, 1977, 1976, 1975, 1974, 1973, 1972, 1971, 1969, 1961, 1959, 1955)
8 Sweet 16's: 2003, 1994, 1979, 1977, 1976, 1974, 1969, 1955
5 Elite Eight's: 2003, 1977, 1976, 1974, 1969, 1955
3 Final Fours: 2003, 1977, 1974
1 Runner Up: 1974
1 Championship: 1977

DePaul University – Big East
Chicago, IL
Catholic – Congregation of the Mission (Vincentian)
25,072 students (16,199 undergraduates)
Facility: Allstate Arena (18,500)
22 NCAA tournaments: 2004, 2000, 1992, 1991, 1989*, 1988*, 1987*, 1986*, 1985, 1984, 1982, 1981, 1980, 1979, 1978, 1976, 1965, 1960, 1959, 1956, 1953, 1943 (* vacated by NCAA)
2 Final Fours: 1979, 1943

Villanova University – Big East
Philadelphia, PA
Catholic – Friars of the Order of St. Augustine
9,535 Students (6,425 undergraduates)
Facilities: The Pavilion (6,500 capacity) Wachovia Center
31 NCAA tournaments (2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 1999, 1997, 1996, 1995, 1991, 1990, 1988, 1986, 1985, 1984, 1983, 1982, 1981, 1980, 1978, 1972, 1971*, 1970, 1969, 1964, 1962, 1955, 1951, 1949, 1939) (*NCAA vacated)
18 Sweet 16's: 2009, 2008, 2006, 2005, 1988, 1985, 1983, 1982, 1978, 1972, 1971*, 1970, 1964, 1962, 1955, 1951, 1949, 1939
12 Elite Eight's: 2009, 2006, 1988, 1985, 1983, 1982, 1978, 1971*, 1970, 1962, 1949, 1939
4 Final Four's: 2009, 1985, 1971*, 1939
1 Runner Up: 1971*
1 Championship: 1985

Georgetown University – Big East
Washington, DC
Catholic – Jesuit
15,318 Students (7,092 undergraduates)
Facility: Verizon Center (20,600 capacity)
26 NCAA tournaments (2010, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2001, 1997, 1996, 1995, 1994, 1992, 1991, 1990, 1989, 1988, 1987, 1986, 1985, 1984, 1983, 1982, 1981, 1980, 1979, 1976, 1975, 1943)
11 Sweet 16's: 2007, 2006, 2001, 1996, 1995, 1989, 1987, 1985, 1984, 1982, 1980
7 Elite Eight's: 2007, 1996, 1989, 1987, 1985, 1984, 1980
5 Final Four's: 2007, 1985, 1984, 1982, 1943
3 Runner Up's: 1985, 1982, 1943
1 Championship: 1984

Providence University – Big East
Providence, RI
Catholic – Dominican Friars
5,806 Students (3,938 undergraduates)
Facility: Dunkin Donuts Center (12,500 capacity)
15 NCAA tournaments (2004, 2001, 1997, 1994, 1990, 1989, 1987, 1978, 1977, 1974, 1973, 1972, 1966, 1965, 1964)
5 Sweet 16's: 1997, 1987, 1974, 1973, 1965
4 Elite Eight's: 1997, 1987, 1973, 1965
2 Final Four's: 1987, 1973

Seton Hall University – Big East
South Orange, NJ
Catholic – Archdiocese of Newark
9,800 Students (5,300 undergraduates)
Facility: Prudential Center (18,500)
9 NCAA tournaments (2006, 2004, 2000, 1994, 1993, 1992, 1991, 1989, 1988)
4 Sweet 16's: 2000, 1992, 1991, 1989
2 Elite Eight's: 1991, 1989
1 Final Four: 1989
1 Runner Up: 1989

St. John's University – Big East
New York, NY (Queens)
Catholic – Congregation of the Mission (Vincentians)
21,346 Students (15,092 undergraduates)
Facilities: Carnesecca Arena (6,008) Madison Square Garden (20,000)
26 NCAA tournament's (2002, 2000, 1999, 1998, 1993, 1992, 1991, 1990, 1988, 1987, 1986, 1985, 1984, 1983, 1982, 1980, 1979, 1978, 1977, 1976, 1973, 1969, 1968, 1967, 1961, 1952, 1951)
6 Elite Eight's: 1999, 1991, 1985, 1979, 1952, 1951
2 Final Four's: 1985, 1952
1 Runner Up: 1952

Duquesne University – A-10
Pittsburgh, PA
Catholic – Congregation of the Holy Spirit
10,363 Students (5,858 undergraduates)
Facility: A.J. Palumbo Center  (5,358 capacity)
5 NCAA tournaments (1977, 1971, 1969, 1952, 1940)
1 Final Four (1940)

St. Louis University – A-10
St. Louis, MO
Catholic – Jesuit
12,700 Students (7,800 undergraduates)
Facility: Chaifetz Arena (10,600) Dedicated in 2008
6 NCAA tournaments (2000, 1998, 1995, 1994, 1957, 1952)

Xavier University – A-10
Cincinnati, OH
Catholic – Jesuit
6,966 Students (4,228 undergraduates)
Facility: Cintas Center (10,250) Dedicated in 2000
21 NCAA tournaments (2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001, 1998, 1997, 1995, 1993, 1991, 1990, 1989, 1988, 1987, 1986, 1983, 1961)
5 Sweet 16's: 2010, 2009, 2008, 2004, 1990
2 Elite Eights: 2008, 2004

Dayton University – A-10
Dayton, OH
Catholic – Society of Mary (Marianists)
11,000 Students (7,500 undergraduates)
Facility: UD Arena (13,455)
14 NCAA tournaments (2009, 2004, 2003, 2000, 1990, 1985, 1984, 1974, 1970, 1969, 1967, 1966, 1965, 1952)
6 Sweet 16's: 1984, 1974, 1967, 1966, 1965, 1952
3 Elite Eight's: 1984, 1967
1 Final Four: 1967

University of Detroit Mercy – Horizon
Detroit, MI
Catholic – Jesuit
5,700 Students
Facility: Calihan Hall (8,295 capacity)
5 NCAA tournaments (1999, 1998, 1979, 1977, 1962)
1 Sweet 16: 1977

Butler University – Horizon
Indianapolis, IN
Private - Founded by attorney and abolitionist Ovid Butler
4,512 Students (3,897 undergraduates)
Facility: Hinkle Fieldhouse (10,000 capacity)
10 NCAA tournaments (2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2003, 2001, 2000, 1998, 1997, 1962)
4 Sweet 16's: 2010, 2007, 2003, 1962
1 Elite Eight: 2010

Bradley University – Missouri Valley Conference
Peoria, IL
Private
5,801 Students (5,061 undergraduates)
Facility: Carver Arena (11,600 capacity)
8 NCAA tournaments (2006, 1996, 1988, 1986, 1980, 1955, 1954, 1950)
3 Sweet 16's: 2006, 1954, 1950
2 Elite Eight's: 1954, 1950
1 Final Four: 1954
1 Runner Up: 1954

Creighton University – Missouri Valley Conference
Omaha, NE
Catholic – Jesuit
7,385 Students (4,133 undergraduates)
Facility: Qwest Center (17,560 capacity)
16 NCAA tournaments (2007, 2005, 2003, 2002, 2001, 2000, 1999, 1991, 1989, 1981, 1978, 1975, 1974, 1964, 1962, 1941)
4 Sweet 16's: 1974, 1964, 1962, 1941

Evansville University – Missouri Valley Conference
Evansville, IN
Christian – United Methodist Church
2,717 Students
Facility: Roberts Stadium (11,600 capacity)
5 NCAA tournaments (1999, 1993, 1992, 1989, 1982)

Drake University – Missouri Valley Conference
Des Moines, IA
Private
5,221 Students (3,164 undergraduates)
Facility:
4 NCAA tournaments (2008, 1971, 1970, 1969)
2 Sweet 16's: 1971, 1970
2 Elite Eight's: 1971, 1970
1 Final Four: 1969

[Dawson Rental]

Why does this always have to be limited to only Christian/Catholic schools? I for one would want Butler.

Why is Creighton always forgotten? Better program than St. Louis ever has been, is Jesuit, and it would help spread out league geographically so we are not the most western team.

St. Louis has traditionally been one of college basketball's big draws, much higher up in the attendance rankings than you might think.  Also, St. Louis is a decent size TV market, Omaha not so much.

But Omaha is closer to Kansas City.

[Daniel]

However it turns, out, and I hope it stays the Big East and it's still good, I don't think any league should be called the Catholic League - doesn't sound impressive to me, and has been said above, it is too limiting.

[chapman]

Duquesne, Detroit-Mercy, and Evansville?  I'd follow the ACC during the season and maybe tune in for our one or two NCAA games in the 96 team tournament...which would be my only options anyway because we wouldn't be on TV besides maybe WMLW if there isn't a re-run of Family Matters to show instead.  Still convinced if our options looked anything like that we'd go around begging to be a basketball-only team in one of the large major conferences and proceed to bend over to any demands they make of us.  And being the small, poor school that doesn't get much of the revenue and is forgotten for 8 months out of the year would still be the better option.

[GGGG]

Duquesne, Detroit-Mercy, and Evansville?  I'd follow the ACC during the season and maybe tune in for our one or two NCAA games in the 96 team tournament...which would be my only options anyway because we wouldn't be on TV besides maybe WMLW if there isn't a re-run of Family Matters to show instead.  Still convinced if our options looked anything like that we'd go around begging to be a basketball-only team in one of the large major conferences and proceed to bend over to any demands they make of us.  And being the small, poor school that doesn't get much of the revenue and is forgotten for 8 months out of the year would still be the better option.

The bball only thing isn't going to fly like it is with the BE.  I mean, why would the B10 or the ACC want Marquette?  Furthermore, what resources do we have to compete with them? 

[NersEllenson]

The bball only thing isn't going to fly like it is with the BE.  I mean, why would the B10 or the ACC want Marquette?  Furthermore, what resources do we have to compete with them?  

What would be the detriment or negative with a Big 10 or ACC taking a high profile basketball only school?  All you are doing in that case is adding eyeballs to your league, in the form of the basketball-only team's fans.  This translates into more advertising dollars as ratings go up for Big 10 Network.  Furthermore taking teams from Washington D.C. (Georgetown), Philadelphia (Villanova), Milwaukee...gives the Big 10 or ACC a presence in those TV markets.

At best we get invited to a BCS league for the above reasons, or as you mentioned in a previous post, we get into an improved Atlantic 10.  All it takes is for one BCS conference to grab a high-profile basketball only program, before another BCS conference decides to the the same.  In terms of premier basketball only schools attractiveness rating:  1)Georgetown, 2)Villanova,  3a.b.c.(Marquette, Xavier, Gonzaga could all be considered of equal attractivness)

[Marquette84]

What would be the detriment or negative with a Big 10 or ACC taking a high profile basketball only school?  All you are doing in that case is adding eyeballs to your league, in the form of the basketball-only team's fans.  This translates into more advertising dollars as ratings go up for Big 10 Network.  Furthermore taking teams from Washington D.C. (Georgetown), Philadelphia (Villanova), Milwaukee...gives the Big 10 or ACC a presence in those TV markets.

Why is there the assumption that Butler, Xavier, and Gonzaga would want to give up what has been a pretty good situation for each of them in order to join a more competitive league with Villanova, Georgetown and MU?

I'm not picking on this one post--virtually everyone in this thread has made the same assumption--that Xavier would leave the A10, Butler the Horizon and Goznzaga the WCC in order to join a "superconference" comprised mainly of Big East castoffs.

I have to question not only whether those teams would leave, but whether they would even want to have their conferences admit any of the former Big East teams.   These teams have all figured out how to succeed without a deep conference full of tough teams.  Why upset the apple cart? 

We can laugh at the Horizon all we want, yet Butler has leveraged that league into a 31-4 record, #5 seed, top 10 rank, and Elite Eight appearance--maybe a final four.  And it's not just a one-year fluke.  Butler has been in 3 sweet 16s in the last five years.   

Or consider Xavier--four sweet 16s and two elite eights in the last decade--they are perfectly happy with the competitive balance in the A10, thank you very much.  Why leave a situation where you can get a good bid every year, top 25 ranking consistently, and can play deep into the NCAA tournament?   

In terms of premier basketball only schools attractiveness rating:  1)Georgetown, 2)Villanova,  3a.b.c.(Marquette, Xavier, Gonzaga could all be considered of equal attractivness)

This quote demonstrates exactly why Butler, Xavier or Gonzaga may not want to associate with their Big East counterparts.   They simply don't want to be perceived as "second fiddle" in their conference--and that is exactly what would happen if they accepted this conference realignment.  I doubt they want to put up with this type of arrogance.

[GGGG]

What would be the detriment or negative with a Big 10 or ACC taking a high profile basketball only school?  All you are doing in that case is adding eyeballs to your league, in the form of the basketball-only team's fans.  This translates into more advertising dollars as ratings go up for Big 10 Network.  Furthermore taking teams from Washington D.C. (Georgetown), Philadelphia (Villanova), Milwaukee...gives the Big 10 or ACC a presence in those TV markets.

Because you won't be able to increase the revenue enough to justify dividing up the pie another way.  The BTN is already in Milwaukee.  And they don't make their money off of advertising, but by charging fees to cable companies.  The addition of Marquette would not help the B10 one bit.  Even Nova or Georgetown wouldn't be worth it.

[goodgreatgrand]

An all-catholic league sounds incredibly lame. Recruiting would be a lot more difficult. I follow the recruiting of most BE programs and you would be surprised how many Muslims are either on teams right now or are coming in as freshmen or are targets further out. I think Syracuse will have 3 Muslims on their team next year and all will likely see a lot of minutes. Its one thing to be a catholic school playing in a conference that doesnt identify with a religion; it's another thing to be a catholic school playing in a catholic conference.

[NersEllenson]

Because you won't be able to increase the revenue enough to justify dividing up the pie another way.  The BTN is already in Milwaukee.  And they don't make their money off of advertising, but by charging fees to cable companies.  The addition of Marquette would not help the B10 one bit.  Even Nova or Georgetown wouldn't be worth it.

I've never known of a TV station/network that didn't sell its ad space for $$$??  Does the Big 10 Network not have commercials? All advertising space sold is priced based on impression/eyeballs, so I can't think that there wouldn't be additional value to BTN to add a few more quality basketball teams to its mix, so that it can broadcast those games, in addition to its core offerings with current teams.

Why is there the assumption that Butler, Xavier, and Gonzaga would want to give up what has been a pretty good situation for each of them in order to join a more competitive league with Villanova, Georgetown and MU?

Or consider Xavier--four sweet 16s and two elite eights in the last decade--they are perfectly happy with the competitive balance in the A10, thank you very much.  Why leave a situation where you can get a good bid every year, top 25 ranking consistently, and can play deep into the NCAA tournament?   

This quote demonstrates exactly why Butler, Xavier or Gonzaga may not want to associate with their Big East counterparts.   They simply don't want to be perceived as "second fiddle" in their conference--and that is exactly what would happen if they accepted this conference realignment.  I doubt they want to put up with this type of arrogance.

Well considering winning the Horizon or Atlantic 10 garners you a 5 and 6y seed, your chances long term for tournament success are enhanced by winning a more competitive, highly regarded league.   Nova got a 2, Georgetown a 3, MU a 6, Syracuse a 1, WVU a 2, Pitt a 3....so, from a seeding perspective, you improve by being in  a stronger league.

[GGGG]

I've never known of a TV station/network that didn't sell its ad space for $$$??  Does the Big 10 Network not have commercials? All advertising space sold is priced based on impression/eyeballs, so I can't think that there wouldn't be additional value to BTN to add a few more quality basketball teams to its mix, so that it can broadcast those games, in addition to its core offerings with current teams.

I meant that the BTN's revenues come primarily from fees charged to cable companies.  Yes, they have advertisers.  However, yet again, the marginal revenue isn't worth dividing up the pie one additional way.  The B10 knows these numbers better than you or I do, yet they haven't seemed all that willing to add new full members much less basketball only ones.

I also think you over estimate how much viewers a school like Marquette brings in.  There is a reason why they are shown on the c crappiest television station in Milwaukee.

[Litehouse]

I've never known of a TV station/network that didn't sell its ad space for $$$??  Does the Big 10 Network not have commercials?

Have you ever watched the BTN?  It seems like 90% of the commercials are for the BTN.