What bigs?

[downtown85]

Further, did you actually look at the description of the games of the guys you looked up, or just their height? 

Just their height and their listed position.  We have not had a legit top 100 player 6-8 or above for about 6 years. That is just a fact. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "bruiser" as that implies a certain type of player.   Actually, I am not sure we need a "bruiser" in the type of offense that we play.  On the other hand, I am sure you will agree that a team with more length can cause more problems on the defensive end and is more likely to grab rebounds.

I was more or less responding to the original post in this thread which seemed to focus exclusively on height when he was talking about "inside players" which I presume to be power forwards and centers.  I just looked up the listed PFs and Cs on scout and found that there are around 30 of them for the 2010 class.  Unless you are telling me that 2010 is overloaded with bigs, then I am presuming that this is more or less normal.  If 30 a year are available and MU is a top 25 program,  a miss on one of them every other year is acceptable.  Not missing for 6 years.  That is my point.    I still don't buy the "there just aren't enough big men available argument" for a team like MU. 

Also, like my original post said.   I think Buzz recognizes this and he will get us a big as soon as he can. 

[bma725]

With what I knew in March, yes.  Back then no one knew that he would turn out the way he did, there wasn't even really an inkling of it from those around him.  Even the coaches thought they were getting the kid that became the hot name at IS8, the one who went against Maymon and Tobias Harris and James Padgett other bigger name guys and not only held his own, but excelled.  Even after the late signing period was over, the coaches were still talking about how he had such a good skillset for someone his size, how he could bang in the post if need be defensively but had nice touch offensively as well, etc.

It wasn't until later on that opinions started to change.

[bma725]

Just their height and their listed position.  We have not had a legit top 100 player 6-8 or above for about 6 years. That is just a fact. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "bruiser" as that implies a certain type of player.   Actually, I am not sure we need a "bruiser" in the type of offense that we play.  On the other hand, I am sure you will agree that a team with more length can cause more problems on the defensive end and is more likely to grab rebounds.

I was more or less responding to the original post in this thread which seemed to focus exclusively on height when he was talking about "inside players" which I presume to be power forwards and centers.  I just looked up the listed PFs and Cs on scout and found that there are around 30 of them for the 2010 class.  Unless you are telling me that 2010 is overloaded with bigs, then I am presuming that this is more or less normal.  If 30 a year are available and MU is a top 25 program,  a miss on one of them every other year is acceptable.  Not missing for 6 years.  That is my point.    I still don't buy the "there just aren't enough big men available argument" for a team like MU. 

Also, like my original post said.   I think Buzz recognizes this and he will get us a big as soon as he can. 

The point is you're confusing height with how they actually play.  When people are clamoring for big men, they aren't talking about height as much as they are talking about inside players of appropriate size to bang in the post both offensively and defensively.  Just because a guy is tall and listed at those positions by a scouting service doesn't mean that's how he actually plays.  Perry Jones is more of a 3 than a 4 or 5...but he's tall so he gets listed as a C.  Carson Desrosiers wants to be a perimeter guy like Steve Novak, but he's 6'11 so according to the scouting services he's a C. 

You can't just look at the total number of guys that are of a certain height and assume that they fit the mold, because a large portion of them don't...and that limits the number of available players that fit what people claim to be looking for.  When schools like Duke and Michigan State, places that are clearly on a completely different level than MU aren't bringing one in every other year, that should tell you something.

[willie warrior]

OK...you do realize that about a year ago, we thought we'd have two, 7 foot (Liam, Mbao) and two near 7 foot (Otule, Clark) by the 2010-11 year right?  Buzz has recruited serviceable big men.

Where are they?
Answer: The hospital or jail.

[downtown85]

When people are clamoring for big men, they aren't talking about height as much as they are talking about inside players of appropriate size to bang in the post both offensively and defensively. 

Not me.  I just want tall and speedy, athletic, and/or skilled.  It goes without saying that if one had a choice between an equally skilled tall player vs. a short player.  One would take the tall one. 

Height helps in so many areas.  Offensively, defensively, inside, and outside.   

Now if you were to ask me do I take a lesser skilled but tall player or a highly skilled but short player?  In normal times I would go with the highly skilled short player.  However, with our two open scholarships and only one semi-skilled big man on the team for the forseeable future, I would take less skill and more height.  (I guess this is what Buzz has done with Otule and Mbao.)  Also our situation at guard/wing looks pretty solid for the next couple of years. 

The thing is, I am not critisizing anyone with my post. I am critisizing the concept that there aren't enough tall players for a consistent top 25 school like ours to get one every now and then.  We are in our current circumstances for lots of reason but mainly bad luck.  Saying there just aren't enough of them available for a program like MU's is a defeatest attitude when it comes to recruiting.   They're out there.  Buzz just needs to work his recruiting magic on one every year or two. 

Regarding Duke.  Their current roster has 1 7-1 player, 3 6-10 players and 2 6-8 players listed.
(FWIW, Clemson has 5 players listed at 6-8 or better.)
MSU has 7 players listed 6-8 or better on their roster.

I really don't understand your point about MSU and Duke.  They seem to recruit enough tall players.  I think Kenpom's height ranking does take into account minutes.  Marquette ranks 332 on average height by Kenpom.  Duke ranks 2nd.    MSU ranks 177th.   BTW, LaSalle ranks 4th.  (What's the deal with Aaric Murray?  Weren't we in on him?)   LaSalle might be an example of a program with too many bigs and not enough guards.   But I digress.

Anyway, here is Kenpoms explanation of his height analysis.

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=82



 

[bma725]

You said that MU if it is a Top 25 program should be able to get a Top 100 big man every other year at a minimum, the implication being that recruiting those type of players with that frequency is something that Top 25 programs do.  My point is that even some Top 5 programs don't do it with that frequency so to expect that sort of recruiting from MU is unreasonable.

Yes, they get tall players, but they don't get tall players that are necessarily Top 100 players.  They succeed because they are able to coach the tall but lightly regarded guys they get into servicable players, which is what MU will have to do as well.

[GGGG]

In an earlier post you said we thought we would have four such players. Now you only acknowledge three.

I don't debate your point that for a very brief period of time--between February 4 and sometime during March 2009 we had three at or near 7' players lined up--not for this coming season, of course--but for 2010-11.

You seem to be reluctant to agree that by the start of the spring recruiting period we only had one near 7' player for the coming season--and he managed to score just 5 points in conference play.

I was correcting my mistake because I initially thought that Liam and Mbao overlapped.  I had forgot that Liam's medical issue came up before we signed Mbao.  So that is why I went down from 4 to 3.

I am not exactly sure when the spring signing period is but you are correct...we only had one lined up for the coming year.

And I actually completely forgot about Roseboro. 

[downtown85]

You said that MU if it is a Top 25 program should be able to get a Top 100 big man every other year at a minimum, the implication being that recruiting those type of players with that frequency is something that Top 25 programs do.  My point is that even some Top 5 programs don't do it with that frequency so to expect that sort of recruiting from MU is unreasonable.

Yes, they get tall players, but they don't get tall players that are necessarily Top 100 players.  They succeed because they are able to coach the tall but lightly regarded guys they get into servicable players, which is what MU will have to do as well.

Still, there are about 30 players that are above 6-8 in Scouts top 100.  I don't know what are the top 5 programs but they do get more than their fair share, e.g. Syracuse, UConn, Duke, UCLA and MSU all have top ranked big men next year. Kentucky, UNC and Kansas already have a few on their roster so perhaps that is why they haven't gotten any for 2010.   However my point is that leaves about 25 decent bigs for the rest of us.  Yes, some of them may be listed as Centers but may be more appropriate on the wing.  But even if half ot he rest are bigs in the true sense of the term, that means we should still have a decent chance at getting one every now and then. 

I do agree with you that we need to take servicable bigs and coach them up to being good.  A servicable big, will do very well complimented by Junior, Vander, DJO, Jones et. al.   Should be an easy recruiting pitch.  (how many times have I said or thought that in the last 6 years?)

[MU83]

One followup to my original post.  There really are two categories of kids that we're talking about here; the top rated high school big men, and the tall kids that are relatively unknowns. If you look at the top rated big's outside the top 5 or 10, it would surprise you to see how many of these kids become just average (or worse) college players.  Signing the 55th rated big man guarantees you nothing.  In fact, developing quality post players is not just a matter or having someone work with them.  Big guys just don't develop the same way that smaller players can, mostly due to the physical limitations that come with being a 6'-10", 20 year old. The second category of big kids is intriguing,  Many of the examples of quality big men given in this post are guys that were not highly ranked guys in high school.  If you take all of the big's in this category, it is not a given that you will develop them into quality players. Perhaps the answer lies in the program's philosophy, i.e., how much time and effort does Marquette put in to trying to develop the sleepers versus taking more developed guards and small forwards. 

I do believe that had James not been hurt last season,  Marquette was a legitimate final four contender--not lock, but contender without any real post presence.  I also believe (and I support Marquette withour reservation), that we are not viewed by many high school kids as being on the same plane as Duke, Michigan State, Syracuse, and some of the other programs mentioned in this post.  We may not like it, but it's a fact.  I think the program is heading in the right direction, but we need to maintain reasonable expectations.

[PE8983]

Last night, I watched the Memphis vs Marshall game, and couldn't believe the big man (Whiteside) on Marshall.  Could score, rebound, block shots, and was envious.  Couldn't believe Marshall could get one, but we haven't for years.  Just looked him up - he's a FRESHMAN!!!  6'-11", 13.2 pts, 9.4 rebs, and 5.5 blocks per game.  Real nice looking player.

[muwarrior87]

Last night, I watched the Memphis vs Marshall game, and couldn't believe the big man (Whiteside) on Marshall.  Could score, rebound, block shots, and was envious.  Couldn't believe Marshall could get one, but we haven't for years.  Just looked him up - he's a FRESHMAN!!!  6'-11", 13.2 pts, 9.4 rebs, and 5.5 blocks per game.  Real nice looking player.

+1. was really hoping they'd pull out a victory there too.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Last night, I watched the Memphis vs Marshall game, and couldn't believe the big man (Whiteside) on Marshall.  Could score, rebound, block shots, and was envious.  Couldn't believe Marshall could get one, but we haven't for years.  Just looked him up - he's a FRESHMAN!!!  6'-11", 13.2 pts, 9.4 rebs, and 5.5 blocks per game.  Real nice looking player.

He had offers from many bigger profile schools, but decided to go to Marshall

Florida State
Charlotte
Auburn
Kentucky
Xaiver
St. John's
Mississippi State
Seton Hall
South Carolina

[Big Papi]

Everyone needs to keep in perspective here that Buzz is at least bringing true bigs in at the moment. He brought 2 last year, and unfortunately 1 never got to play (McMorrow), and the other (Otule) has had injuries that have more or less ruined his first 2 years. His one this year, Yous, everyone knew would be extremely raw, and now is injured to top things off.  And you can't fault Buzz that his big for next year, Clark, decided to go off and commit a pretty heinous crime.

We probably need to find 2 bigs in the spring I would say. However, I don't think we'll be bringing in Blackledge & Burke types if this is what people are worried about.

And what Crean didn't?  I love the revisionist history around here.  Don't get me wrong, I love Buzz and think he was a great hire but Crean DID bring in bigs.  Crean might not have developed them but Buzz at this point in time has completely missed on every single one of his bigs so why do we think things are going to change.  Because we think it will?  Not holding my breathe.  Crean brought in Merritt, Rob Jackson, Novak, Grimm, Barro, Amoroso, Burke, Marcus Jackson.  All 6'8" plus post players except Novak (small forward who ended up being a pretty good rebounder and average post defender by his senior year) that I would gladly take over Otule, Mbao, Roseboro and Clark.  Maymon and Amoroso cancel each other out.  Let Buzz get one that works out before we can claim that Buzz can recruit bigs because right now he is batting 0.

[GOMU1104]

Last night, I watched the Memphis vs Marshall game, and couldn't believe the big man (Whiteside) on Marshall.  Could score, rebound, block shots, and was envious.  Couldn't believe Marshall could get one, but we haven't for years.  Just looked him up - he's a FRESHMAN!!!  6'-11", 13.2 pts, 9.4 rebs, and 5.5 blocks per game.  Real nice looking player.

He had offers from many bigger profile schools, but decided to go to Marshall

Florida State
Charlotte
Auburn
Kentucky
Xaiver
St. John's
Mississippi State
Seton Hall
South Carolina

It actually came down to Marshall and Charlotte. Not sure if he had actual offers from all of those schools.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It actually came down to Marshall and Charlotte. Not sure if he had actual offers from all of those schools.

Depends on the source....Scout said he had offers from them.

[GOMU1104]

Depends on the source....Scout said he had offers from them.

All of the scout articles and profiles say his offers were from Marshall and Charlotte, as well as interest from other schools.

[ChicosBailBonds]

All of the scout articles and profiles say his offers were from Marshall and Charlotte, as well as interest from other schools.

My bad, it was the yahoo one that said he got offers by the other...indicated by check marks....you need to click the show all button


http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/player-Hassan-Whiteside-83699