What bigs?

[4everwarriors]

I don't care how few may be out there. If you consider yourself an elite program and have a legit chance for the FF, you must have them. 3-4 guard offenses just won't get it done. That's what separates the contenders from the pretenders.

[tower912]

In a perfect world, our 13 schollies would be 3 bigs, 5 guards, 5 wings.   Assuming wings are 6'5-6'8.    Start taking on the projects and learn from Bo and develop the bigs so that they are ready by their junior year.   Buzz has said that he is looking for players that can dribble, pass, and shoot.   If the smaller 10 can do that, I don't care if our bigs are Uwe Blab, Randy Brewer, Brad Lohaus,  Steve Scheffler (sp?)Ooze, Mbao,  Damon Key, Lovette,  Downing, whatever.    Let them patrol the middle, get some putbacks and body people.   Landing a true post player ready to contribute from day 1 is almost a pipe dream at this point.  

[mr.MUskie]

Our best hope for getting the top-rated big that everyone seems to be clamoring for is for Buzz being able to develop one of his current bigs (Otule and Mbao) into a solid player.

In 6 months of practice he hasn't been able to teach EWill enough defense to get on the floor, so what are the odds of him developing a big?

[bma725]

Sorry I am not buying big man shortage argument.  I think there are enough big men to go around for MU to land one top 100 bruiser every year or two. 

That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements ever on this board.  Even some of the truly elite programs in the country don't land top 100 bruisers every year or two.  Prior to this year, neither Michigan State nor Duke hadn't recruited a player like that since 2006, and that's if you're generous in describing guys in the 2009 class at Duke as bruisers.

Further, did you actually look at the description of the games of the guys you looked up, or just their height?  Many of those guys simply aren't bruisers, due to their weight and more importantly, due to how they play the game.  They are big men in the same sense that Dan Fitzgerald and Steve Novak were big men...they're tall.  When they get to the collegiate level, a good portion of them will be best suited for playing on the perimeter.

Look at the top PFs according to Scout.  You have to go all the way to #7 on their list to find one that is actually a real post player, and he's only 6'6.  Of their Top 10, he's the only power forward that you could actually say has a big man's game.  The rest are combo forwards who's perimeter skills far outweigh their post skills, and all of them will play on the perimeter in college. 

Even their top centers have a large number of guys that won't be post players at the next level.  Their #2 Center, weighs maybe 200 on a good day, and actually plays the game like a small forward.  Their #8 center, Carson Desrosiers, chose his school based on the fact that he gets to play the 3 once he gets there rather than having to be in the post.  Their #7 Center, James Johnson, is more suited for the European style of basketball where the big gets to play on the perimeter, and given his size that's likely what he'll do.  The closer you look at the list, the more you find that what you want isn't as available as you think it is.

When you're looking at what's out there, you can't just look at height, however convenient it may be for your argument.

[bma725]

In 6 months of practice he hasn't been able to teach EWill enough defense to get on the floor, so what are the odds of him developing a big?

6 months is a rather short time to remove the years of bad habits he was taught growing up, especially when you consider how little time any college coach spends on player development during the season.

[Tom Crean's Tanning Bed]

6 months is a rather short time to remove the years of bad habits he was taught growing up, especially when you consider how little time any college coach spends on player development during the season.

Very much agree here. Especially when said player battled injuries his last 2 years of high school and who's HS coach basic defensive strategy was plant Williams under the hoop and have his other 4 players force everything into the lane for him to block.

Everyone needs to keep in perspective here that Buzz is at least bringing true bigs in at the moment. He brought 2 last year, and unfortunately 1 never got to play (McMorrow), and the other (Otule) has had injuries that have more or less ruined his first 2 years. His one this year, Yous, everyone knew would be extremely raw, and now is injured to top things off.  And you can't fault Buzz that his big for next year, Clark, decided to go off and commit a pretty heinous crime.

We probably need to find 2 bigs in the spring I would say. However, I don't think we'll be bringing in Blackledge & Burke types if this is what people are worried about.

[reinko]

I would take a Burke redux fo show.

[NavinRJohnson]

The following additional BE schools have a least one competent bigman, some of whom were highly ranked:

Cincy - Gates
UL - Samuels
USF - Gilchrist
ND - Harongody
Depaul - Koshwal
SH - Garcia
WVA - Ebanks (yes he is a forward, but 6ft 8)

MU - Otule and Mbao.  Projects, simple as that. Can't recall if they were even in the top 500 rankings. Really hope one can provide anything, but I am skeptical to the highest degree on both.

Hey that's great, but it doesn't answer the question. The standard that was suggested is that MU needs to get two legit big men every year, one of which must me top 50-100. No excuses. I'll ask again, how many teams have done that?

[nyg]

Hey that's great, but it doesn't answer the question. The standard that was suggested is that MU needs to get two legit big men every year, one of which must me top 50-100. No excuses. I'll ask again, how many teams have done that?

See your point, but just showing what other BE schools have up front with only one.

Two bigmen, one of whom is a 50-100, not at MU.
 
How about a new MU standard, one bigman in the top 100, or 200.   

[Marquette84]

OK...you do realize that about a year ago, we thought we'd have two, 7 foot (Liam, Mbao) and two near 7 foot (Otule, Clark) by the 2010-11 year right?  Buzz has recruited serviceable big men.

Clark was never on this season's team, and Liam was out before the spring signing period.

In desperate need of a guy who could give you minutes right away this season, Buzz took a chance on a project (Mbao).

[NavinRJohnson]

Clark was never on this season's team, and Liam was out before the spring signing period.

That's true, but has nothing to do with the post you were replying to which said that 'about a year ago, we thought we'd have two, 7 foot (Liam, Mbao) and two near 7 foot (Otule, Clark) by the 2010-11 year right?'

Which is true. You do realize that, right? What exactly did you expect Buzz to do, make a 7 foot robot, or find one of a few remaining available player and give him growth pills? Or do you think MU has the kind of pull that he can just walk into some 7 footer's house at the 11th hour and convince him to come to MU.

[Rockmic87]

The reason Koshwal never came to MU were multi-fold.  Academics, for one.  Also, Loren Jackson (Koshwal's HS coach) was not happy with how Barro (another one of Jackson's former players) was used by Crean in his system.

Our best hope for getting the top-rated big that everyone seems to be clamoring for is for Buzz being able to develop one of his current bigs (Otule and Mbao) into a solid player. Once he's able to do that, I think that the recruiting battle for higher-rated post prospects may become a little easier.

Exactly why we need a big man coach on our staff, to show we are interested in developing them as well!

[Marquette84]

That's true, but has nothing to do with the post you were replying to which said that 'about a year ago, we thought we'd have two, 7 foot (Liam, Mbao) and two near 7 foot (Otule, Clark) by the 2010-11 year right?'

Which is true. You do realize that, right? What exactly did you expect Buzz to do, make a 7 foot robot, or find one of a few remaining available player and give him growth pills? Or do you think MU has the kind of pull that he can just walk into some 7 footer's house at the 11th hour and convince him to come to MU.

Well that quote is just plain wrong.  We never thought we'd have both Liam and Mbao at the same time. Liam was out before Mbao committed.

And it's silly to excuse the lack of bigs on THIS year's team--the orignial point-- by citing a player that wouldn't have even become eligible until NEXT year.  Even if Clark had never been accused of a crime, he wasn't going to be on this years team.

And we apparently DID walk into some 7 footer's house (Mbao) at the 11th hour and convince him to come to MU.  It just happened to be the wrong 7 footer for what the team needed this year.  

When you still have key position gaps, it is not the right time to take chances on projects.  Given that DJO verballed on April 1 (before the spring signing period) and Mbao signed on 4/27 (early in the spring signing period), I don't think its a stretch to conclude that we took players that we didn't NEED for 2009-10 while we still had a critical gap in the projected roster.

Would Buzz have been able to land a serviceable big if he hadn't taken DJO and Mbao?  I don't know.  But what I do know is that when he took those two players, it precluded any possibility.

[GOMU1104]

Well that quote is just plain wrong.  We never thought we'd have both Liam and Mbao at the same time. Liam was out before Mbao committed.

And it's silly to excuse the lack of bigs on THIS year's team--the orignial point-- by citing a player that wouldn't have even become eligible until NEXT year.  Even if Clark had never been accused of a crime, he wasn't going to be on this years team.

And we apparently DID walk into some 7 footer's house (Mbao) at the 11th hour and convince him to come to MU.  It just happened to be the wrong 7 footer for what the team needed this year.  

When you still have key position gaps, it is not the right time to take chances on projects.  Given that DJO verballed on April 1 (before the spring signing period) and Mbao signed on 4/27 (early in the spring signing period), I don't think its a stretch to conclude that we took players that we didn't NEED for 2009-10 while we still had a critical gap in the projected roster.

Would Buzz have been able to land a serviceable big if he hadn't taken DJO and Mbao?  I don't know.  But what I do know is that when he took those two players, it precluded any possibility.

You are a moron.

[bma725]

Well that quote is just plain wrong.  We never thought we'd have both Liam and Mbao at the same time. Liam was out before Mbao committed.

And it's silly to excuse the lack of bigs on THIS year's team--the orignial point-- by citing a player that wouldn't have even become eligible until NEXT year.  Even if Clark had never been accused of a crime, he wasn't going to be on this years team.

And we apparently DID walk into some 7 footer's house (Mbao) at the 11th hour and convince him to come to MU.  It just happened to be the wrong 7 footer for what the team needed this year. 

When you still have key position gaps, it is not the right time to take chances on projects.  Given that DJO verballed on April 1 (before the spring signing period) and Mbao signed on 4/27 (early in the spring signing period), I don't think its a stretch to conclude that we took players that we didn't NEED for 2009-10 while we still had a critical gap in the projected roster.

Would Buzz have been able to land a serviceable big if he hadn't taken DJO and Mbao?  I don't know.  But what I do know is that when he took those two players, it precluded any possibility.

That's just plain wrong.  Going into the spring signing period last year Buzz knew that there was a very good chance he'd only have three guards on the roster, and even if he did have 4, two of them would be guys that are not players you can count on to be productive Big East players game in and game out.  He absolutely had to get another guard for the team to have any chance at being successful this year, he could not go into battle with only Junior, Acker, Cubillan and Buycks.  Anyone who's seen them play would know that.

[NavinRJohnson]

About a year ago, Liam and OToule were both expected to be here this year.

[Tom Crean's Tanning Bed]

Exactly why we need a big man coach on our staff, to show we are interested in developing them as well!

Why are you automatically assuming that we do not have a coach with that ability on the staff?  Tony Benford has had a good record in identifying and developing post talent in his career (Ike Diogu, Kenny Thomas, Aleks Maric to name a few right of the bat). He's been instrumental in the recruitments of Mbao, McMorrow, and Clark, and works with all the bigs in practice, including Otule.

Like I said prior, your best shot at getting a highly-rated post player to MU is to show you can develop and use one from scratch at this point.

[Marquette84]

About a year ago, Liam and OToule were both expected to be here this year.

Right. And about a year before the 03-04 season, we thought Dwyane Wade was going to be on the roster.  But he went pro early.  Circumstances change.

What do you propose we do?  Not recruit a big until the 2012-13 season, since we all thought we'd have Liam and Clark until then?  

Regardless of what we thought about Liam before he was unable to play, the actions I'm talking about are what we did after we learned he was not going to be on the roster.

And what is inarguable is that before the start of the spring signing period in April of 2009, the only big we knew would be on the 09-10 roster was Otule.  

I don't know what is so difficult to understand about this.  Liam was not going to be on this years team, and we knew that before the spring signing period.  

Therefore, anyone who tries to use Liam's medical condition as an excuse for this year's lack of bigs is wrong.  The reason we don't currently have a big on this season's roster (other than Otule) is because we didn't sign one during the spring signing period in April 2009.

[bma725]

And what is inarguable is that before the start of the spring signing period in April of 2009, the only big we knew would be on the 09-10 roster was Otule. 

No, at that time they thought the Roseboro would still be on the roster. 

[NavinRJohnson]

Right. And about a year before the 03-04 season, we thought Dwyane Wade was going to be on the roster.  But he went pro early.  Circumstances change.

What do you propose we do?  Not recruit a big until the 2012-13 season, since we all thought we'd have Liam and Clark until then?  

Regardless of what we thought about Liam before he was unable to play, the actions I'm talking about are what we did after we learned he was not going to be on the roster.

And what is inarguable is that before the start of the spring signing period in April of 2009, the only big we knew would be on the 09-10 roster was Otule.  

I don't know what is so difficult to understand about this.  Liam was not going to be on this years team, and we knew that before the spring signing period.  

Therefore, anyone who tries to use Liam's medical condition as an excuse for this year's lack of bigs is wrong.  The reason we don't currently have a big on this season's roster (other than Otule) is because we didn't sign one during the spring signing period in April 2009.

I didn't think Wade would be there as you suggest.

But I'll ask again...Who exactly are these uncommitted Big East ready big men that you feel Buzz should have been able to go out and sign? Where exactly was he going to find these guys that he had not been recruiting for the previous couple years because we already had the guys we had/were supposed to have?  The Big Man store at Mayfair mall?  

[GGGG]

Right. And about a year before the 03-04 season, we thought Dwyane Wade was going to be on the roster.  But he went pro early.  Circumstances change.

What do you propose we do?  Not recruit a big until the 2012-13 season, since we all thought we'd have Liam and Clark until then?  

Regardless of what we thought about Liam before he was unable to play, the actions I'm talking about are what we did after we learned he was not going to be on the roster.

And what is inarguable is that before the start of the spring signing period in April of 2009, the only big we knew would be on the 09-10 roster was Otule.  

I don't know what is so difficult to understand about this.  Liam was not going to be on this years team, and we knew that before the spring signing period.  

Therefore, anyone who tries to use Liam's medical condition as an excuse for this year's lack of bigs is wrong.  The reason we don't currently have a big on this season's roster (other than Otule) is because we didn't sign one during the spring signing period in April 2009.

Well...the Clark commitment came in February.  That was before we knew of Liam's situation.  So a year ago we knew that we would have three at, or near, 7' players on the roster for 2010-11. 

[Marquette84]

Well...the Clark commitment came in February.  That was before we knew of Liam's situation.  So a year ago we knew that we would have three at, or near, 7' players on the roster for 2010-11. 

In an earlier post you said we thought we would have four such players. Now you only acknowledge three.

I don't debate your point that for a very brief period of time--between February 4 and sometime during March 2009 we had three at or near 7' players lined up--not for this coming season, of course--but for 2010-11.

You seem to be reluctant to agree that by the start of the spring recruiting period we only had one near 7' player for the coming season--and he managed to score just 5 points in conference play.







 

[DomJamesToTheBasket]

Have some faith in Buzz......I used to think Spring signings were worthless and he dispelled that thought immediately.

[bma725]

In an earlier post you said we thought we would have four such players. Now you only acknowledge three.

I don't debate your point that for a very brief period of time--between February 4 and sometime during March 2009 we had three at or near 7' players lined up--not for this coming season, of course--but for 2010-11.

Nope, wrong. 

Both during and after that period you mention they had three, yes count them three, guys of that size lined up for this season.  Before McMorrow's illness was discovered they had McMorrow, Otule and Roseboro...and after McMorrow's illness they had Mbao, Otule and Roseboro.  All of that size, all expected to be on the roster this season. 

You keep forgetting to mention Roseboro or somehow ignoring the fact that he was on the expected roster for this year through the spring signing period.   

[Marquette84]

Nope, wrong.  

Both during and after that period you mention they had three, yes count them three, guys of that size lined up for this season.  Before McMorrow's illness was discovered they had McMorrow, Otule and Roseboro...and after McMorrow's illness they had Mbao, Otule and Roseboro.  All of that size, all expected to be on the roster this season.  

You keep forgetting to mention Roseboro or somehow ignoring the fact that he was on the expected roster for this year through the spring signing period.  

Neither.



I'm sure you saw these two posts earlier in this thread:

OK...you do realize that about a year ago, we thought we'd have two, 7 foot (Liam, Mbao) and two near 7 foot (Otule, Clark) by the 2010-11 year right?  Buzz has recruited serviceable big men.

And this one . . . .

Well...the Clark commitment came in February.  That was before we knew of Liam's situation.  So a year ago we knew that we would have three at, or near, 7' players on the roster for 2010-11.  

In his first post, Sultan mentioned Clark, Liam, Otule and Mbao as the four serviceable bigs.
In his second, he mentions Clark, Liam and (presumably) Otule as the three serviceable bigs.

He never mentioned Roseboro one of the "serviceable bigs" in either one of his posts.

I don't know whether he forgot about Roseboro, is ignoring him, or whether he doesn't consider that Roseboro met his minimum standard of "servicable."

But since he left him out, I did as well.


BTW, let me ask you a serious question:  With what you knew about Brett Roseboro in March of 2009, would you be comfortable counting on him as a go-to player for the 2009-10 season?