OMG

[Lennys Tap]

Everybody knows that Chicos is loving this, right?

Right.

[mu-rara]

I agree with you 100%....

BUT...

At some point, me, you, and everybody here is going to have to get over TC and all of the associated drama (we love him, we hate him, we loved him until he left, he's too tan, his ego is too big, he wastes money, he didn't donate to the soccer stadium, he recruited Christopherson,  etc. etc.)

I've wasted a lot of time pointing out the "double standard" in various threads, but, at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter.

People who "like" Buzz are going to give him the benefit of the doubt. People who "dislike" Crean will use everything against him to illustrate why they don't like him.

Chico's, we agree on a lot of stuff... and at some point we're probably going to have to let this stuff slide... otherwise we're just going to keep beating our heads against a wall... and I'm not really sure it's doing anything. People already have their minds made up, and there's no changing it.

My problem with you (2002 and Chicos) is that you defend TC unconditionally.  I thought TC was a huge upgrade but in the end I don't miss him.   Recruiting was too inconsistent.  If he does well at IU, great.

I have not embraced Buzz for the long term.  That will be a couple of years out. 

I am pleased with his recruiting, so far,  and how hard the guys play.   I have beefs with some tactics from time to time but I am pleased with overall game coaching.   This year has been a pleasant surprise so far.

[Jacks DC]

Wow, I could not disagree with you more.

None of those losses compare to this one in my opinion.  ND State was a good team, beat Wisconsin at the Kohl Center (almost no one does that) and the following year beat us.  They had success that year, going 20-8.  They beat Princeton, beat UWGB, lost to Texas Tech by 4, lost to Colorado State by 2 points.  


USF has some talent last year and it's a tough place to play, they actually won 4 games in conference and lost several others by only a few points (WVU by 3, Syracuse by 5, Rutgers by 3)....oh, and they swept DePaul as well.  That's how bad DePaul is.  

Even Maine had some success that year they beat us.

DePaul hadn't won a conference game in TWO #$%&^#$ YEARS!!  And DePaul isn't just winless during that time, they are getting ass hammered in the process.

I honestly don't see how those other losses even come close to comparing to this loss.  DePaul is THAT BAD.  

This is a team that lost to Providence the other day by 17 POINTS AT HOME...the team we just beat by 30...the team that supposedly is coached by someone that doesn't have a clue (Keno Davis).  This is a team that lost to American University on their home court.  A team that lost to Florida Gulf Coast University.  Their smallest margin of defeat in conference was 13 points....St. John's beat them by 20.

I hate getting into where this ranks as a loss, but how can you ignore the fact that when MU lost to USF and ND State we were ranked TOP 10 IN THE COUNTRY.  Right now most people don't even rank us top 10 in the Big East.  Those were far bigger upsets.

Also, DePaul has showed some signs of life this year.  Yes they have had some bad losses, but note that the 13 point loss was at Pitt in a game when they were down only 5 in the last few minutes.  They also beat #22 Northern Iowa and took Tennessee (pre-suspensions) down the the final minute.  I know DePaul has had injuries and there was no excuse for that loss but this is not as big an upset as people make it sound.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

My problem with you (2002 and Chicos) is that you defend TC unconditionally.  I thought TC was a huge upgrade but in the end I don't miss him.   Recruiting was too inconsistent.  If he does well at IU, great.

I have not embraced Buzz for the long term.  That will be a couple of years out. 

I am pleased with his recruiting, so far,  and how hard the guys play.   I have beefs with some tactics from time to time but I am pleased with overall game coaching.   This year has been a pleasant surprise so far.

Well, let's just be honest about the cycle of life that often occurs around here:

Step One: TC is criticized for something that he did. Sometimes it's legit, sometimes it's not.  

Step Two: Chico's/Marquette84/me take the poster to task for ripping the coach for something we feel is insignificant. (Example: Hyperbaric chamber, or color of his hummer, or using a limo to recruit, etc. etc.)

Step Three: Repeat.

Over the course of 3 years, we get labeled as "defenders" when in reality our "love" for TC probably isn't any greater than most. We're just not so quick to rip the guy.

You can go back and read my posts after he left. I didn't defend anything. My comments weren't as pointed as some, but I certainly wasn't defending the guy.

Also, I've made similar posts like this (clarifying my position) in the past as well.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=9770.msg85627#msg85627

I don't think Tom Crean is "St. TOM", but I also don't feel like he deserves to be ripped for every move he makes or made.

To be honest, I treat TC just like I'm treating Buzz. I try to be objective about what I'm seeing, and I also give the coach the benefit of the doubt because I believe he knows what he is doing.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Losing to DePaul is obviously a bad, bad loss. Piss poor. Embarrassing...particularly if you live in Chicago. But in the last 10 years...I'd say losing by 47 points at Louisville, when we couldn't bring the ball past half court...that was a more embarrassing loss. Quite frankly, I was also more embarrassed when we were absolutely slaughtered by Kansas in New Orleans...trailing by nearly 30 points at half time. Let me repeat: We were down 30 points at halftime!! Think about that for a second.

Both games were broadcast nationally.

How about Western Michigan? How about the St. Louis game in 2005 when we scored all of 39 points? How about the game against Kenyon Martin and Cincinnati when we were trailing something like 37-5!

So yes, this loss is embarrassing. But consider DePaul is a desperate squad, threw in a phenomenal shot, we had a let down, but it happens.

It is NOT the worse loss in 25 years or whatever some of you people are claiming.

[Hards Alumni]

Losing to DePaul is obviously a bad, bad loss. Piss poor. Embarrassing...particularly if you live in Chicago. But in the last 10 years...I'd say losing by 47 points at Louisville, when we couldn't bring the ball past half court...that was a more embarrassing loss. Quite frankly, I was also more embarrassed when we were absolutely slaughtered by Kansas in New Orleans...trailing by nearly 30 points at half time. Let me repeat: We were down 30 points at halftime!! Think about that for a second.

Both games were broadcast nationally.

How about Western Michigan? How about the St. Louis game in 2005 when we scored all of 39 points? How about the game against Kenyon Martin and Cincinnati when we were trailing something like 37-5!

So yes, this loss is embarrassing. But consider DePaul is a desperate squad, threw in a phenomenal shot, we had a let down, but it happens.

It is NOT the worse loss in 25 years or whatever some of you people are claiming.

+1, and I'd say that the loss to ND state or whatever hurt a lot more... This loss sucks, but its just a loss.  This team wasn't supposed to be world beaters.  

Honestly, for me, the loss to Tulsa in the tourney a few years back hurt worse than any other loss that I can remember.

[Lennys Tap]

Well, let's just be honest about the cycle of life that often occurs around here:

Step One: TC is criticized for something that he did. Sometimes it's legit, sometimes it's not.  

Step Two: Chico's/Marquette84/me take the poster to task for ripping the coach for something we feel is insignificant. (Example: Hyperbaric chamber, or color of his hummer, or using a limo to recruit, etc. etc.)

Step Three: Repeat.

Over the course of 3 years, we get labeled as "defenders" when in reality our "love" for TC probably isn't any greater than most. We're just not so quick to rip the guy.

You can go back and read my posts after he left. I didn't defend anything. My comments weren't as pointed as some, but I certainly wasn't defending the guy.

Also, I've made similar posts like this (clarifying my position) in the past as well.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=9770.msg85627#msg85627

I don't think Tom Crean is "St. TOM", but I also don't feel like he deserves to be ripped for every move he makes or made.

To be honest, I treat TC just like I'm treating Buzz. I try to be objective about what I'm seeing, and I also give the coach the benefit of the doubt because I believe he knows what he is doing.

While we're being "honest" let's talk about what happened in this thread. The discussion has centered around what a bad loss this was. Everyone agreed it was a terrible loss. The opinions range from bad to worst ever (ridiculous as that is). Some say the team sucks. Some say the coach sucks. Some say both suck. Nowhere is there even a MENTION of Tom Crean until Chicos complains that those acting reasonably about it wouldn't be as reasonable if Crean was still the coach. And after the highjack you agree 100% and further say that Step One in these discussions is somebody says something bad about Crean. Except when nobody has even mentioned Crean and Step One is Chicos imagining what people would say (with ZERO doubt since he's a mind reader) if TC was still our coach.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

While we're being "honest" let's talk about what happened in this thread. The discussion has centered around what a bad loss this was. Everyone agreed it was a terrible loss. The opinions range from bad to worst ever (ridiculous as that is). Some say the team sucks. Some say the coach sucks. Some say both suck. Nowhere is there even a MENTION of Tom Crean until Chicos complains that those acting reasonably about it wouldn't be as reasonable if Crean was still the coach. And after the highjack you agree 100% and further say that Step One in these discussions is somebody says something bad about Crean. Except when nobody has even mentioned Crean and Step One is Chicos imagining what people would say (with ZERO doubt since he's a mind reader) if TC was still our coach.

Totally fair. I apologize for the thread hi-jack.

MU RA RA, we can take this discussion to PM if you want to continue further.

Chico's, I agree with you about the double standard, but we might have to quit beating that drum as it's probably just creating more frustration and animosity.

Lenny's is right that this thread was hijacked.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Everybody knows that Chicos is loving this, right?

Yeah, I'm thrilled.  There is nothing better than losing to one of our rivals when they are as bad as this.  Hip hip, hooray.  Hip hip, hooray.

[ChicosBailBonds]

My problem with you (2002 and Chicos) is that you defend TC unconditionally.  I thought TC was a huge upgrade but in the end I don't miss him.   Recruiting was too inconsistent.  If he does well at IU, great.

I have not embraced Buzz for the long term.  That will be a couple of years out. 

I am pleased with his recruiting, so far,  and how hard the guys play.   I have beefs with some tactics from time to time but I am pleased with overall game coaching.   This year has been a pleasant surprise so far.

The problem is that I or anyone else doesn't defend him unconditionally.  In fact, I'm stupefied to understand why you and others keep saying that.

Have I said over and over and over again that he was a pain in the ass to work for?  Is that a defense?  It is unconditional?

Have I said over and over and over again that he was an arrogant jerk? Is that a defense?  It is unconditional?

Have I said over and over and over again that his end of game management sucked?  Is that a defense?  It is unconditional?


I could go on.....bringing a certain assistant coach on board that had ZERO business being part of MU.  Too many transfers.  Bending over and scheduling UWM.  Etc, etc.

There is nothing unconditional about it, you guys choose to read only certain things....why, it's beyond me, but that's what you have compartmentalized.

On the flip side, for the same reason I'm not going to get on my knees and polishing up the gums for Buzz either.  He has done a nice job, so far.  He's also walked into a situation that has been spectacular for someone with such a short resume.  The good news is that he has not screwed it up.  The better news is that he seems to be flourishing.  I, of course, believe many other coaches could have done this as well, but I'm happy the guy we hired IS DOING THIS.

The last thing I want is for him to fail because all it does is set MU back a number of years.  Why people can't get this through their skulls is beyond me.  You don't wish for someone to fail if they are coaching your team UNLESS their is clearly no way to pull out of it (i.e. DePaul fans with Wainright).  But that isn't the case, so I want him to succeed because the alternative sucks for all of us.


Speaking of all this...is Mr. Hayward alive?  I worry for him, seriously, I am worried about his health after last night.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I hate getting into where this ranks as a loss, but how can you ignore the fact that when MU lost to USF and ND State we were ranked TOP 10 IN THE COUNTRY.  Right now most people don't even rank us top 10 in the Big East.  Those were far bigger upsets.

Also, DePaul has showed some signs of life this year.  Yes they have had some bad losses, but note that the 13 point loss was at Pitt in a game when they were down only 5 in the last few minutes.  They also beat #22 Northern Iowa and took Tennessee (pre-suspensions) down the the final minute.  I know DePaul has had injuries and there was no excuse for that loss but this is not as big an upset as people make it sound.

Yes, and this current team is receiving votes.  I look at it from the perspective of how good the opponent is.  ND State was a good team that year.  USF, that was a terrible loss.  I would say Buzz's worst loss of his career until last night.  But DePaul is so much worse than any of those teams, it's hard for me to say that it isn't the worst loss in many years. 

Look, I'm not Todd Rosiak, but I'm pretty sure he put it at the top of his list as well. 

You do realize this is a DePaul team that lost 6 in a row, 9 of their last 11 with their only wins against UIC and Texas State.  Including losses to Florida Gulf Coast University and American University.

They are ranked 190th in the Pomeroy rankings

South Florida was 135th last year

ND State was ranked 127th the year we lost to them


Those are big differences

[ChicosBailBonds]

While we're being "honest" let's talk about what happened in this thread. The discussion has centered around what a bad loss this was. Everyone agreed it was a terrible loss. The opinions range from bad to worst ever (ridiculous as that is). Some say the team sucks. Some say the coach sucks. Some say both suck. Nowhere is there even a MENTION of Tom Crean until Chicos complains that those acting reasonably about it wouldn't be as reasonable if Crean was still the coach. And after the highjack you agree 100% and further say that Step One in these discussions is somebody says something bad about Crean. Except when nobody has even mentioned Crean and Step One is Chicos imagining what people would say (with ZERO doubt since he's a mind reader) if TC was still our coach.

Let's also be honest that I rarely do this and when someone else typically brings him into a thread, you are NEVER NEVER NEVER there to say a damn word about it.

Seeing as you're being honest about it and all....

So when you get all hot and bothered about the hijacking, for once in your life as THREAD COP could apply the same standard (ooops....there's that double standard thing again....imagine that).  When I see that, I'll be quite surprised and shocked since I've never seen it in the past from you.  Just being honest and all.

I brought it up to show the blatant double standard that has been on this board for quite some time.  Every loss in the past was on the coach, every loss nowadays seems to be on the players.  Strange.     In one case, the coach prior was responsible for the Haitian earth quake but the current one has no culpability toward anything.

Buzz should change his name to Teflon

[ChicosBailBonds]

To this day I'll never understand how people were embarrassed about a team that went to the Final Four.  A non-BCS school, a team no expert picked to go to the Final Four, a team that humiliated the Number 1 team in the country, beat another top 5 team two days earlier, beat another top 25 team the week prior, won the conference title, etc.

Definitely something to be embarrassed about.  Just wow

[Hards Alumni]

5 posts in a row Chicos, that may be a new record.

I'd say around half of your posts are you defending yourself from a good amount of people here.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

To this day I'll never understand how people were embarrassed about a team that went to the Final Four.  A non-BCS school, a team no expert picked to go to the Final Four, a team that humiliated the Number 1 team in the country, beat another top 5 team two days earlier, beat another top 25 team the week prior, won the conference title, etc.

Definitely something to be embarrassed about.  Just wow

Can you do a quick search and see if you can find somebody...anybody....anywhere...claiming they were embarrased of the Final Four team? That'd be great...thanks.

[Lennys Tap]

Let's also be honest that I rarely do this and when someone else typically brings him into a thread, you are NEVER NEVER NEVER there to say a damn word about it.

Seeing as you're being honest about it and all....

So when you get all hot and bothered about the hijacking, for once in your life as THREAD COP could apply the same standard (ooops....there's that double standard thing again....imagine that).  When I see that, I'll be quite surprised and shocked since I've never seen it in the past from you.  Just being honest and all.

I brought it up to show the blatant double standard that has been on this board for quite some time.  Every loss in the past was on the coach, every loss nowadays seems to be on the players.  Strange.     In one case, the coach prior was responsible for the Haitian earth quake but the current one has no culpability toward anything.

Buzz should change his name to Teflon

Look, 2002 said that these arguments about Crean invariably begin with someone attacking TC. I just pointed out that in this thread that wasn't the case. He agreed. No big deal. Case closed. Until your post. And the anger, distortion and hyperbole.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Chicos -- When are you going to understand that people didn't dislike Crean because of his coaching...it was because he was a phony, fake tanning, sycophantic horse's ass!! People don't criticize Buzz as much because they like him and want him to do well!!

Seriously, why can't you grasp that?

[Marquette84]

Can you do a quick search and see if you can find somebody...anybody....anywhere...claiming they were embarrased of the Final Four team? That'd be great...thanks.

Did you forget you posted this earlier today?

Quite frankly, I was also more embarrassed when we were absolutely slaughtered by Kansas in New Orleans...trailing by nearly 30 points at half time. Let me repeat: We were down 30 points at halftime!! Think about that for a second.

[Lennys Tap]

Chicos -- When are you going to understand that people didn't dislike Crean because of his coaching...it was because he was a phony, fake tanning, sycophantic horse's ass!! People don't criticize Buzz as much because they like him and want him to do well!!

Seriously, why can't you grasp that?

Exactly. We held our collective noses and rooted like crazy for him because we love Marquette. And we're happy we don't have to hold our noses anymore.

[willie warrior]

One way to move on from this embaraasing loss stuff (and it definitely was a huge embarassing loss) would be to whup Syracuse. I am all for that, and then most of us can get over the embarass stuff.

Having said that, I don't believe that a 2 point loss to Syracuse would be sufficient.

The team definitely must bounce back from the Depaul Debacle.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Look, 2002 said that these arguments about Crean invariably begin with someone attacking TC. I just pointed out that in this thread that wasn't the case. He agreed. No big deal. Case closed. Until your post. And the anger, distortion and hyperbole.

Lennys, I completely agree with you here.

But, to be fair, about 8 hours after you posted this, another thread was hijacked with anti-crean stuff.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=17484.msg172751#msg172751

So, while this thread was redirected by Chico's and me (admittedly, that was a mistake), there have been a lot of threads redirected by others, and it took a very short time for another one to come up.

I'm not going to post in that thread because then I'll have to retain my title of "blind defender".

[mu-rara]

Chicos -- When are you going to understand that people didn't dislike Crean because of his coaching...it was because he was a phony, fake tanning, sycophantic horse's ass!! People don't criticize Buzz as much because they like him and want him to do well!!

Seriously, why can't you grasp that?

I am glad Crean is gone because recruiting was spotty.  About every third year was OK ( or better ).  I was unhappy about him signing a 10 year contract and bailing after 2.  Gutless.  He knew that he could not maintain the program.  Nothing to do with the personality issues.

[Fullodds]

I always appreciated Crean for what he did.  I thought he was a liar when he left and have proven that to be true with his bs timeline as to the Indiana job offer, negotiations, telling MU and his players.  No big deal today. 

Lately though, I have heard from people I trust with good information about why TC was excited to get out of town when he did.  Let's just say that he was ready for a new start away from Milwaukee and when Indiana opened up it was a good time to run away from Mequon (more than Marquette).

The good news is that Buzz has done a good job and we can all enjoy MU basketball whether TC is here or Buzz or the next coach.

[4everwarriors]

Yep, people are anxious to run away from The Quon every day. Did he bone the mayor (Mequon has a female mayor) in his $1.5 mil. house or something?

[mu-rara]

Yep, people are anxious to run away from The Quon every day. Did he bone the mayor (Mequon has a female mayor) in his $1.5 mil. house or something?

I've always wondered....Do Quonians actually call it the Quon, or is that derogatory nasty outsiders calling it The Quon