Loyola Maryland beats IU on a 4 point play at the end.

[madtownwarrior]

That's what I find so interesting from a psychological point of view.

O'Neill...complete dick in public, represented the university poorly, two losing seasons, took us to the Sweet 16, only stayed 5 years and crapped on alums and the university constantly.  Left for a WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL SCHOOL.  No bitterness from fans.  (hey, he drank with them and played golf)

Majerus...had his own issues, never even made the NCAAs, left MU high and dry in the Summer where MU could get no real good coach.  Coached a whopping 3 years.  LEFT TO BECOME AN ASSISTANT WITH THE #$^# BUCKS.  No bitterness

Crean....dick in private but mostly vanilla in public (didn't drink, didn't publicly cheat on his wife, etc), stayed 9 years (longer than anyone since McGuire), took MU to Final Four, got MU in Big East, never a losing season, 98% graduation rate, got MU more publicity than ANYONE has ever at MU not named McGuire, Al McGuire Center takes in 70% of building donations during Final Four year, etc, etc.  LEFT TO GO TO ONE OF THE FIVE GREATEST PROGRAMS IN NCAA HISTORY.  Actually HIRED Buzz Williams (who those so bitter about Crean ironically love) to MU and pushed Buzz to be head coach at MU.   COMPLETE BITTERNESS

I find it fascinating.

Makes for an interesting psychological case study. 

Agree with 100% with but still think Crean is a complete prick and enjoy seeing him lose...   can't get over the phoniness and superlatives that spew from his mouth...   the deflection on how bad his team was the other night to grades and effort and the references "restoration" project was pure crean at his finest...

[4everwarriors]

So, does he now have a roster of academic All-Americans to add to his resume'? How about the one black sheep on the team that didn't measure up? Will he be encouraged to transfer so someone smarter can be brought in?

[jmayer1]

No, actually I haven't.  They've had ONE stellar recruiting class, not classes.  Secondly, they had NO ONE ON THEIR team, other than that class....they didn't have a Big East 1st Conference pre season pick, for example.

This is why you guys make zero sense when you compare the two.  It's one thing to have a top 15 recruiting class that also has juniors and seniors already there to show them the way, take up the leadership role, etc.

It's quite another to have a top 15 recruiting class and have no one else on the team that has ever started a game in their life.

So when you guys roll out the top recruiting class nonsense without those essential nuggets of information, you're being disingenious.   

IU might as well had the death penalty, their roster last year returned ONE PLAYER with 29 minutes logged total in the season.  Contemplate that for a second.   It's going to take more than 1 top 15 recruiting class, it's going to take MANY because no one else was there, no seniors, no juniors, no starters, nothing.

You have stated multiple times that Crean's recruting class his first year and last year were better than Buzz's and that he already has 2 4-star guys for next year's class (his 4th).  

Quit with the death penalty bs.  They lost one scholarship for one year, that's it. On the day TC was hired, IU had 8 returning players.  For one reason or another (housecreaining) nearly everyone left.    

"they didn't have a Big East 1st Conference pre season pick, for example."
-Actually TC did have Jordan Crawford in the stable, however he couldn't convince him to stick around.  MU currently has one impact player (Zar) left from the TC days and a couple of role players (Acker, Cubillan).  You could argue that IU would be in a similar situation if Crawford didn't see right through what TC was trying to sell.  So, the fact that MU has a couple of role players around this year gets TC off the leash for another year, but what about next year?  Have you already started working on your excuses when IU stinks again? Shouldn't IU be better than MU nearly every year once the initial hurdle was passed based on TC's vast expertise?

TC should be lauded for getting Wade, but is that success indicative of how good of a coach TC was at MU?  The year after the Final 4, TC couldn't get a team with 2 NBA players and several other useful guys into the NCAA (I think his worst coaching job at MU).  I don't agree that you can't not link DW and TC.  If MU was in a major conference (that didn't allow partial qualifiers) at that time, would TC have ever made the tourney at MU before getting run out of town?  I dunnno, maybe, maybe not.  The arguement could be made that Fr. Wild ultimately had more to do with DW landing at MU than TC as he allowed Flash into MU (at Crean's behest).  There was really not much gamble for TC, if it didn't work out he could just move onto the next gig, but MU had a lot riding on that gamble and it paid off in spades.

Look, I know IU is one of your "alma maters" (what school isn't?) and I know a lot of people trash TC unnecessarily, but you stick up for the guy like he's your brother but take nearly every chance to sling digs at the guy who is currently here (I thank TC for that hire as well).  You like to think you are the objective one, but you're not even close.

[Hards Alumni]

sorry, Chicos is THE "I told you so" guy.

feel me?

[Hards Alumni]

I love the "lucky enough to have Dwade" comments as well.  Funny, Dwade doesn't seem to have all this bitterness about the guy that you guys do.

He's the one that got him, plain and simple.  Great players make great coaches.  Always been that way.  If bad human being, bad recruiter, bad coach can land that type of talent, then I sure hope great human being, great coach, great recruiter can get lucky a few times, too.

Whether you guys like it or not, Crean and Wade are a package deal.  I know some of you would ilke to put white out on your television screen and pretend that didn't happen, but it did.  Along with Novak, Diener, etc.  They came to play for Crean.  So did Tyshawn Taylor.

I, too, will be very disappointed if Buzz doesn't equal what Crean did once the program was reestablished....that is, post season EVERY year (mostly NCAA), 95% + graduation rates, upper half of the Big East finishes, kids representing the school well, etc.  I think Buzz can do it, I have every confidence he will.

Why would he bitter?  His coach didn't leave in the middle of the night.

[Lennys Tap]

You have stated multiple times that Crean's recruting class his first year and last year were better than Buzz's and that he already has 2 4-star guys for next year's class (his 4th).  

Quit with the death penalty bs.  They lost one scholarship for one year, that's it. On the day TC was hired, IU had 8 returning players.  For one reason or another (housecreaining) nearly everyone left.    

"they didn't have a Big East 1st Conference pre season pick, for example."
-Actually TC did have Jordan Crawford in the stable, however he couldn't convince him to stick around.  MU currently has one impact player (Zar) left from the TC days and a couple of role players (Acker, Cubillan).  You could argue that IU would be in a similar situation if Crawford didn't see right through what TC was trying to sell.  So, the fact that MU has a couple of role players around this year gets TC off the leash for another year, but what about next year?  Have you already started working on your excuses when IU stinks again? Shouldn't IU be better than MU nearly every year once the initial hurdle was passed based on TC's vast expertise?

TC should be lauded for getting Wade, but is that success indicative of how good of a coach TC was at MU?  The year after the Final 4, TC couldn't get a team with 2 NBA players and several other useful guys into the NCAA (I think his worst coaching job at MU).  I don't agree that you can't not link DW and TC.  If MU was in a major conference (that didn't allow partial qualifiers) at that time, would TC have ever made the tourney at MU before getting run out of town?  I dunnno, maybe, maybe not.  The arguement could be made that Fr. Wild ultimately had more to do with DW landing at MU than TC as he allowed Flash into MU (at Crean's behest).  There was really not much gamble for TC, if it didn't work out he could just move onto the next gig, but MU had a lot riding on that gamble and it paid off in spades.

Look, I know IU is one of your "alma maters" (what school isn't?) and I know a lot of people trash TC unnecessarily, but you stick up for the guy like he's your brother but take nearly every chance to sling digs at the guy who is currently here (I thank TC for that hire as well).  You like to think you are the objective one, but you're not even close.

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

[Benny B]

That's what I find so interesting from a psychological point of view.

O'Neill...complete dick in public, represented the university poorly, two losing seasons, took us to the Sweet 16, only stayed 5 years and crapped on alums and the university constantly.  Left for a WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL SCHOOL.  No bitterness from fans.  (hey, he drank with them and played golf)

Majerus...had his own issues, never even made the NCAAs, left MU high and dry in the Summer where MU could get no real good coach.  Coached a whopping 3 years.  LEFT TO BECOME AN ASSISTANT WITH THE #$^# BUCKS.  No bitterness

Crean....dick in private but mostly vanilla in public (didn't drink, didn't publicly cheat on his wife, etc), stayed 9 years (longer than anyone since McGuire), took MU to Final Four, got MU in Big East, never a losing season, 98% graduation rate, got MU more publicity than ANYONE has ever at MU not named McGuire, Al McGuire Center takes in 70% of building donations during Final Four year, etc, etc.  LEFT TO GO TO ONE OF THE FIVE GREATEST PROGRAMS IN NCAA HISTORY.  Actually HIRED Buzz Williams (who those so bitter about Crean ironically love) to MU and pushed Buzz to be head coach at MU.   COMPLETE BITTERNESS

I find it fascinating.

Makes for an interesting psychological case study. 

Actually, the case study has already been done and it's not one bit interesting... the good (or genius) of your legacy will always be overshadowed by the most controversial thing you've ever done.  Examples: Michael Jackson, Brett Favre, Roman Polansky, Bobby Knight, Bill Clinton, George Bush, etc.

And speaking of... if you want fascinating and interesting, ask Bobby Knight what he thinks about IU being one of the top five basketball programs in history.

[LAZER]

I love the "lucky enough to have Dwade" comments as well.  Funny, Dwade doesn't seem to have all this bitterness about the guy that you guys do.

He's the one that got him, plain and simple.  Great players make great coaches.  Always been that way.  If bad human being, bad recruiter, bad coach can land that type of talent, then I sure hope great human being, great coach, great recruiter can get lucky a few times, too.

Whether you guys like it or not, Crean and Wade are a package deal.  I know some of you would ilke to put white out on your television screen and pretend that didn't happen, but it did.  Along with Novak, Diener, etc.  They came to play for Crean.  So did Tyshawn Taylor.

I, too, will be very disappointed if Buzz doesn't equal what Crean did once the program was reestablished....that is, post season EVERY year (mostly NCAA), 95% + graduation rates, upper half of the Big East finishes, kids representing the school well, etc.  I think Buzz can do it, I have every confidence he will.

I think you're really missing the point of why people bring up Wade.  It's a testament to the caliber of a coach Crean is without him.  Crean will never have that type of player ever again and we've all seen what he has done without that type of talent...nothing too impressive.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Actually, the case study has already been done and it's not one bit interesting... the good (or genius) of your legacy will always be overshadowed by the most controversial thing you've ever done.  Examples: Michael Jackson, Brett Favre, Roman Polansky, Bobby Knight, Bill Clinton, George Bush, etc.

What did Favre do to be included in that list? Go play for another team? Give me a break!

Two of those guys you mentioned were/are pedophiles!!

And to Chicos -- people here bring up Wade because Crean does at EVERY OPPORTUNITY...even recently being quoted telling his players how much money Wade is paid...as if he had anything to do with it.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

We'll see.  This is by no means a perfect analogy, but I think Crean is a coaching equivalent to the corporate stoolie who is able to brown nose his way up the ladder despite his somewhat limited professional acumen, for whom the word "relationship" signifies only a means of leverage.  (Of course, when a person is no longer useful, the relationship ends.  Note how Crean's trumpeting of his friendship with Kelvin Sampson mysteriously ended on April 1, 2008.)

Everything with him comes off as plastic--the hairplugs, tanning, the personality drawn from self-help and bulls--- management theory books.    Cetainly some of it is jealousy, but people hate to see a guy like that succeed.

Certainly could be right.

But, if the "plastic jerk" does a pretty good job running the company I work at (and I reap the benefits), and the next guy who runs the company is a "good guy" but runs the company into the ground*... who do you think I'd rather work for?

People will forgive the "plastic" and "fake" stuff if the company is successful. Over time, that CEO will be remembered for his successes more than his "plastic", especially if the company struggles without him.


*please note, I don't think Buzz will run the team in the ground, I'm just using an analogy.

[Benny B]

What did Favre do to be included in that list? Go play for another team? Give me a break!

Two of those guys you mentioned were/are pedophiles!!

Although it appears that you misunderstood the point, you did an exquisite job of demonstrating it:  Michael Jackson was one of the greatest singer & songwriters in the world, and amongst many, he shall forever be remembered as a pedophile.

Tom Crean, for all he did at and for MU, will always be remembered amongst many for leaving his guys high and dry in the middle of the night.

Right or wrong, that's just the way it is.

[4everwarriors]

Crean couldn't give you the definition of class if you handed a Webster's to him.

[MU1984]

Crean did great things at MU (even if people didnt like his coaching style, myself included) and eventually that will be rightfully rewarded, but for as much he did, the University did more for HIS career and HIS family and for Crean to leave literally in the middle of the night was bush league.  Not saying he shouldnt take the job, hell, anyone would do the MU for IU trade especially in the condition IU was in.  Its the way he left.  A simple presser thanking MU and he would have a ton of support from MU fans at IU.  That didnt happen and it is completely understandable and appropriate to root against him.  However, to not acknowledge his successes at MU is being extremely shortsighted.

[Hards Alumni]

Crean did great things at MU (even if people didnt like his coaching style, myself included) and eventually that will be rightfully rewarded, but for as much he did, the University did more for HIS career and HIS family and for Crean to leave literally in the middle of the night was bush league.  Not saying he shouldnt take the job, hell, anyone would do the MU for IU trade especially in the condition IU was in.  Its the way he left.  A simple presser thanking MU and he would have a ton of support from MU fans at IU.  That didnt happen and it is completely understandable and appropriate to root against him.  However, to not acknowledge his successes at MU is being extremely shortsighted.

THIS.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Although it appears that you misunderstood the point, you did an exquisite job of demonstrating it:  Michael Jackson was one of the greatest singer & songwriters in the world, and amongst many, he shall forever be remembered as a pedophile.

Tom Crean, for all he did at and for MU, will always be remembered amongst many for leaving his guys high and dry in the middle of the night.

Right or wrong, that's just the way it is.

I understood your point perfectly...I just don't think Favre belongs on the list.

But sleeping with and in appropriately touching children...or forcibly sodomizing 13 year old girls (Polansky)...is a helluva different than suiting up for the Minnesota Vikings!

And for the record, I don't care one iota how Crean left. I remember him as a phony jerkoff when he was here. That's his legacy!

[MU1984]

And for the record, I don't care one iota how Crean left. I remember him as a phony jerkoff when he was here. That's his legacy!

There is a difference what YOU care about and what the majority of MU nation cares about.  Most people were pissed at the WAY he left.  Not because he left to go to IU or that he was a jerk while he was here.  We all have our own Crean horror stories, but he was bringing in Ws and $s so we put up with it.

[Benny B]

I understood your point perfectly...I just don't think Favre belongs on the list.

But sleeping with and in appropriately touching children...or forcibly sodomizing 13 year old girls (Polansky)...is a helluva different than suiting up for the Minnesota Vikings!

And for the record, I don't care one iota how Crean left. I remember him as a phony jerkoff when he was here. That's his legacy!

Favre belongs on the list not because he shares character traits with the others, but because his "defection" (again, right or wrong) will be the one thing that will be at the forefront of many devoted and die-hard Packer fans' minds 10-20 years from now.  Not the 1997 Super Bowl, not the infinite number of records he set in the green & gold, but for his "defection."  (I, for one, was happy he went, should have "retired" sooner).

[4everwarriors]

Then you're nothing but basketball whores. Some of us, Rican included, outted Crean as the phoney he is long before leaving MU was an option. Was clear for those of us who deal with people on a daily basis and have a little "gameday" experience. I speak for many who felt liberated on 4/1/08.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'll boil it down.

Chicos is the "I told you so" guy on this board.  Every board has one, and Chicos is ours.

We have other "I told you so" guys on this board, but few are as correct as often as Chicos (see HAYWARD, MR., and Tap, Lenny's)

LOL.  I think Denny Crane gets the honor, along with Mr. Hayward.  But I'll take your slam...no issue.

 I'd rather have that slam than be bitter each day like some people are on this board....as if they were jilted at the altar or didn't get asked out by the quarterback for prom and then hope he cracks up in a car crash years later.  No way to live life, but some choose to do so.

Happy Holidays.

PS  I told you so....Buzz will do well at Marquette (hope I'm right)

[ChicosBailBonds]

So, does he now have a roster of academic All-Americans to add to his resume'? How about the one black sheep on the team that didn't measure up? Will he be encouraged to transfer so someone smarter can be brought in?

Don't know, but from what I hear in the IU Athletic Department, the basketball team did extremely well with grades this first semester, a major change from the previous 5 years.  One of the reasons he was hired was to also get the academics thing in order which was a major embarrassment to IU.  They seemed to have turned that corner. 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Don't know, but from what I hear in the IU Athletic Department, the basketball team did extremely well with grades this first semester, a major change from the previous 5 years.  One of the reasons he was hired was to also get the academics thing in order which was a major embarrassment to IU.  They seemed to have turned that corner. 

I heard the same thing....DURING HIS PRESS CONFERENCE AFTER HE LOST TO LOYOLA!! I wonder why he brought that up?

[ChicosBailBonds]

You have stated multiple times that Crean's recruting class his first year and last year were better than Buzz's and that he already has 2 4-star guys for next year's class (his 4th).  

Quit with the death penalty bs.  They lost one scholarship for one year, that's it. On the day TC was hired, IU had 8 returning players.  For one reason or another (housecreaining) nearly everyone left.    

"they didn't have a Big East 1st Conference pre season pick, for example."
-Actually TC did have Jordan Crawford in the stable, however he couldn't convince him to stick around.  MU currently has one impact player (Zar) left from the TC days and a couple of role players (Acker, Cubillan).  You could argue that IU would be in a similar situation if Crawford didn't see right through what TC was trying to sell.  So, the fact that MU has a couple of role players around this year gets TC off the leash for another year, but what about next year?  Have you already started working on your excuses when IU stinks again? Shouldn't IU be better than MU nearly every year once the initial hurdle was passed based on TC's vast expertise?

TC should be lauded for getting Wade, but is that success indicative of how good of a coach TC was at MU?  The year after the Final 4, TC couldn't get a team with 2 NBA players and several other useful guys into the NCAA (I think his worst coaching job at MU).  I don't agree that you can't not link DW and TC.  If MU was in a major conference (that didn't allow partial qualifiers) at that time, would TC have ever made the tourney at MU before getting run out of town?  I dunnno, maybe, maybe not.  The arguement could be made that Fr. Wild ultimately had more to do with DW landing at MU than TC as he allowed Flash into MU (at Crean's behest).  There was really not much gamble for TC, if it didn't work out he could just move onto the next gig, but MU had a lot riding on that gamble and it paid off in spades.

Look, I know IU is one of your "alma maters" (what school isn't?) and I know a lot of people trash TC unnecessarily, but you stick up for the guy like he's your brother but take nearly every chance to sling digs at the guy who is currently here (I thank TC for that hire as well).  You like to think you are the objective one, but you're not even close.

Show me all the slings I take at Buzz....should be easy since there are so many.  Please, list them.  I'll bet you could come up with 500, 100, 50, 10 pretty easily.  Incidentally, I took my shots at Crean, too.  Why do you never mention that?  The only thing I've gotten on Buzz for was free throws, the use of timeouts, and seeming to take a few kids that were riskier than the reward.  I would criticize Crean for scheduling, substitution patterns, etc, but those are ignored and now I'm his brother.   

The death penalty example is because they had one player left with 29 total DI minutes.  It would be like starting a program from scratch.  ONE PLAYER on the team with 29 minutes of experience.  Think about it.

The only recruiting class I've compared to Buzz's is the one is playing now.  Both were top 20 classes, IU's was ranked higher of the two but both are solid classes.  The class after, MU's is better than IU's so why would I have stated that? Now, I did say the class that IU was in contention for following the next one could be huge if they get the players they are trying to get, but since that class isn't done I don't know how those comments would come about.

It seems to me some of you who hate Crean with every bone in your body don't like it when someone points out a few facts.  That's all I'm doing.  You don't like someone to rain on the bitterness parade. 

Someone should create an organization called moveon.org for people to move on....we have a new coach, why keep harping on the old one? 

OH, and it's entirely rational and possible to like both the current coach and the former coach, something that's also lost on so many people here.

[Marquette84]

, the University did more for HIS career and HIS family and for Crean to leave literally in the middle of the night was bush league.  Not saying he shouldnt take the job, hell, anyone would do the MU for IU trade especially in the condition IU was in.  Its the way he left.

And

Tom Crean, for all he did at and for MU, will always be remembered amongst many for leaving his guys high and dry in the middle of the night.

Where do you guys keep coming up with this "middle of the night" comment?

The timeline was that he accepted the job the morning of the 1st,  scheduled an announcement for the next morning, left an urgent message with his boss--who was on a flight due to land by about 4:00 PM, called a team meeting AND met with the team before dinner that same day--before nightfall, no less middle of the night.

But what I really want to know is what you would declare to be reasonable?  Call the FAA to place an emergency inflight call to Cottingham?  Call the players out of class?

To me--reasonable seems to be exactly what Crean did--1. leave a message with Cottingham to call the minute he's on the ground and 2. schedule a team meeting after classes are done for the day.

A simple presser thanking MU and he would have a ton of support from MU fans at IU.  That didnt happen and it is completely understandable and appropriate to root against him.

Can you explain how people have more respect for O'Neill--who not only did NOT issue a simple presser thanking MU, but actually gave an interviews highly critical of MU, its administration and its fans?

While didn't praise MU when he left, he has also not made one iota of criticism either.  O'Neill crapped on MU for years, and only when his career completely fell apart and MU looked like a step up again did he try to make nice.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think you're really missing the point of why people bring up Wade.  It's a testament to the caliber of a coach Crean is without him.  Crean will never have that type of player ever again and we've all seen what he has done without that type of talent...nothing too impressive.

And that can be said about so many coaches.  How many titles did Phil Jackson win without Kobe or Jordan?  The examples are endless.   

Great players make great coaches.  Whether Crean gets another player like Wade, who knows.  The point was....HE DID get him.  College coaching is also about recruiting.  He who has the best players usually wins.

I get the point entirely, but I'm happy as hell that this really crappy recruiter, really crappy coach and horrible Hitler like person was able to get Wade because it gave all of us one of our best MU memories ever (for some of the younger folks, THE BEST MU memory ever).  Let's hope Buzz can land someone like that.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Then you're nothing but basketball whores. Some of us, Rican included, outted Crean as the phoney he is long before leaving MU was an option. Was clear for those of us who deal with people on a daily basis and have a little "gameday" experience. I speak for many who felt liberated on 4/1/08.

Wait, does this mean you guys are now the I TOLD YOU SO guys?  LOL.  Don't let Hards Alumni see this post.


And look how many people were liberated when the biggest douche to ever coach at MU left to coach at Tennessee.  It's funny, different strokes for different folks.  If the coach is a douche but plays golf and yuks it up at the Harp or Turners....well he's a douche but a swell guy, too.  If the couch is a douche but doesn't give the proper stroke job to the right alums, well then he's just a douche.