Author Topic: It's Offical, Cubs Rich Harden A Bust, MUScoopers Know Nothing About Baseball (Read 9861 times)

Tugg Speedman · « **on:** December 19, 2009, 10:56:15 AM »

Anyone remember the giddy excitement in the summer of 2008 when the Cubs traded for Rich Harden .... who could have been confused as the greatest pitcher since Sachel Paige?

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=9526.0

And one year later, how I detailed his dismal performance with the Cubs and said he was a bust.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15139.msg142002#msg142002

This opinion brought about this kind of baseball brilliance ....

marqptm: Wow, this is quite a stretch.

LastWarrior: your position is completely retarded

TallTitan34: I hope if we make a trade before the deadline, that the player "busts" like Rich Harden did last year.

Well the Cubs summarily dump Sachel Paige, I mean Rich Harden, by telling him he's a free agent. That's a nice way of saying don't let the door hit you in the a$$.

Now Sachel is part of the Texas Rangers signing for measely $6.5 million in 2010

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=4728983

This is barely more than Trevor Hoffman gets to pitch one inning every other day ($6 million).

Harden will be out of baseball in 18 months. TallTitan34, are you really Jim Hendry? It's hard to tell your baseball acumen from his.

Brewtown Andy · « **Reply #1 on:** December 19, 2009, 04:22:48 PM »

The Rangers? Hmm. Given how closely Nolan Ryan is tending to the pitching development there, this could be interesting.

GGGG · « **Reply #2 on:** December 19, 2009, 10:09:00 PM »

Douchiest. Post. Ever.

TallTitan34 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 22, 2009, 11:27:06 PM »

Seriously what is wrong with you Brewer fans?

I am still 100% fine with the Harden trade. Quote me all you want from the past because my views are the same. The Cubs got Harden to secure a spot in the 2008 playoffs. Looking at his 2008 numbers with the Cubs, I'd say he played a big role in that:

Games: 12
Wins: 5
Losses: 1
ERA: 1.77
SO: 89
BB: 30

I'd say those are successful numbers.

I do wish last year Hendry would have traded Harden before the deadline last year to get something in return for him, but bottom line, Harden got the job done for the Cubs in 2008.

Answer me these questions MU84:
1) Did the Cubs get Harden to secure a playoff spot in 2008 after the Brewers got C.C?
2) Did Rich Harden help the Cubs secure a playoff spot?

TallTitan34 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 22, 2009, 11:28:05 PM »

Quote

marqptm: Wow, this is quite a stretch.

LastWarrior: your position is completely retarded

+1

🏀 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 23, 2009, 06:32:59 AM »

Wow, this is quite a stretch, again.

For Harden to really be a bust, there has to be some sort of negative to the trade that brought him here.

Let's review:
1.) Sean Gallagher - The piece of the trade that Oakland wanted the most gave them a 5.5+ ERA in Oakland and was traded to San Diego. Since leaving the Cubs he has had a 5.59 ERA and 1.64 WHIP.
2.) Eric Patterson - Another guy that had decent trade value has appeared in 69 games for Oakland since the trade sporting a .233/.320/.310. The A's are close to signing Coco Crisp which spells doom from Patterson.
3.) Josh Donaldson - Played 7 games last year in A-Ball. Injured.
4.) Matt Murton - Now in Japan.

MerrittsMustache · « **Reply #6 on:** December 23, 2009, 08:45:16 AM »

Yeah, but Harden didn't bring a World Series title to his team like CC! Granted, CC was on a different team when he won the WS, but it still counts!

wadesworld · « **Reply #7 on:** December 23, 2009, 10:50:08 AM »

Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 22, 2009, 11:27:06 PM

Seriously what is wrong with you Brewer fans?

I am still 100% fine with the Harden trade. Quote me all you want from the past because my views are the same. The Cubs got Harden to secure a spot in the 2008 playoffs. Looking at his 2008 numbers with the Cubs, I'd say he played a big role in that:

Games: 12
Wins: 5
Losses: 1
ERA: 1.77
SO: 89
BB: 30

I'd say those are successful numbers.

I do wish last year Hendry would have traded Harden before the deadline last year to get something in return for him, but bottom line, Harden got the job done for the Cubs in 2008.

Answer me these questions MU84:
1) Did the Cubs get Harden to secure a playoff spot in 2008 after the Brewers got C.C?
2) Did Rich Harden help the Cubs secure a playoff spot?

I don't think that Harden was a bust for the Cubs, but I also don't think that he was brought in just to get the Cubs to the playoffs. The Cubs, unlike the Brewers, had been to the playoffs a few times in the past decade. They were making moves not to make the playoffs, but instead to make a DEEP RUN into the playoffs. The Brewers got CC to make the playoffs for the first time in 26 years, and anything more than that was just gravy.

I remember some people believing that the Cubs getting Harden was a bigger move than the Brewers getting CC. Not even close. I also believe that, while those are great numbers you throw out there, he definitely did not live up to expectations once the playoffs rolled around and beyond.

So ultimately I'd say it helped the Cubs and he was solid for them, but when it came time to getting what they really needed, wanted, and expected out of him (a great pitcher in the playoffs to get them deep into it), he did not succeed. And if you want to argue whether or not he was brought in not TO MAKE the playoffs, but rather to make a DEEP RUN in the playoffs, then why did they COMPLETELY baby him throughout the regular season?

TallTitan34 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 23, 2009, 10:54:41 AM »

The Cubs acquiring Harden was clearly a response to the Brewers acquiring CC. The trade went down right after the Brewers got CC. They saw CC as a threat to the 2008 playoffs and they were right.

Hards Alumni · « **Reply #9 on:** December 23, 2009, 10:55:40 AM »

Quote from: Tim Maymon on December 23, 2009, 10:50:08 AM

I don't think that Harden was a bust for the Cubs, but I also don't think that he was brought in just to get the Cubs to the playoffs. The Cubs, unlike the Brewers, had been to the playoffs a few times in the past decade. They were making moves not to make the playoffs, but instead to make a DEEP RUN into the playoffs. The Brewers got CC to make the playoffs for the first time in 26 years, and anything more than that was just gravy.

I remember some people believing that the Cubs getting Harden was a bigger move than the Brewers getting CC. Not even close. I also believe that, while those are great numbers you throw out there, he definitely did not live up to expectations once the playoffs rolled around and beyond.

So ultimately I'd say it helped the Cubs and he was solid for them, but when it came time to getting what they really needed, wanted, and expected out of him (a great pitcher in the playoffs to get them deep into it), he did not succeed. And if you want to argue whether or not he was brought in not TO MAKE the playoffs, but rather to make a DEEP RUN in the playoffs, then why did they COMPLETELY baby him throughout the regular season?

spot on.

JWags85 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 23, 2009, 12:37:11 PM »

I will firmly agree that I am sick of Hendry. Bradley was a mistake. Aaron Miles-mistake. Fukadome-Nice for a bit, but easily figured out. However, the Harden trade was hardly as awful as our friend wants to admit. I love how he brings Gaudin into the discussion like he was some profound loss.

Bottom line, when healthy, Harden's stuff was nasty. Lets not forget he still carried a no hitter into the later innnings against the Phillies this year. However, he has a glass arm. They got some decent production that year from him, while, as noted, giving away nothing.

77ncaachamps · « **Reply #11 on:** December 23, 2009, 06:18:00 PM »

Quote from: marqptm on December 23, 2009, 06:32:59 AM

Wow, this is quite a stretch, again.

For Harden to really be a bust, there has to be some sort of negative to the trade that brought him here.

Let's review:
1.) Sean Gallagher - The piece of the trade that Oakland wanted the most gave them a 5.5+ ERA in Oakland and was traded to San Diego. Since leaving the Cubs he has had a 5.59 ERA and 1.64 WHIP.
2.) Eric Patterson - Another guy that had decent trade value has appeared in 69 games for Oakland since the trade sporting a .233/.320/.310. The A's are close to signing Coco Crisp which spells doom from Patterson.
3.) Josh Donaldson - Played 7 games last year in A-Ball. Injured.
4.) Matt Murton - Now in Japan.

Moneyball at its best.
4 possible stars for one.
Dump the bigger salary for four smaller ones.
None pan out, no big deal. The A's a bit wealthier (cuz they need the $), lost little, and have the farm system and trade acumen to "fill-in the blanks."
But as a Bay Area fan, they'll NEVER go anywhere. And that includes moving to San Jose.

Tugg Speedman · « **Reply #12 on:** December 25, 2009, 05:56:28 AM »

Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 22, 2009, 11:27:06 PM

Quote me all you want from the past because my views are the same. The Cubs got Harden to secure a spot in the 2008 playoffs.

I guess you forgot the cubs won 97 games in 2008 and took the division by 7.5 games. They had a 3.5 game lead over the Brewers on July 8, 2008 (the day of the trade) and the best record in the NL.

The Cubs would have easily won the division with Gallagher in the 2008 rotation. So, Harden did nothing for them. They would have still won no playoff games in 2008 with or without Harden in the rotation.

So, if you want to redefine Harden as a rent a player trade for 2008, he's even more useless than I thought.

And yes Hendry gave up a bunch of players that did nothing for Harden and Guadin. But the point is Hendry thought he had his "1a" starter (Big Z would be "1") in Harden and stopped looking for more pitching help. This cost the Cubs in 2009.

Bottom line, Harden was not necessary in 2008 and hurt the team in 2009. That is why they dumped him for nothing this off season.

Just admit you blew it and move on.

Jimbo · « **Reply #13 on:** December 26, 2009, 01:57:19 PM »

Can't let this slide. Satchel Paige is a Hall of Fame pitcher. If Sachel is a pitcher, Harden is likely better.

To claim the Cubs would have easily won the division in 2008 with Gallagher in the rotation is a stretch. 3.5 games up at the beginning of July doesn't mean much when you have half a season left to play (especially considering the remaining divisional schedule which included 10 games against the Brewers - 6 in September alone). When the Cubs traded Gallagher he had started 10 games and earned a 3-4 record with a 4.45 ERA. Gallagher finished 2008 in Oakland with a 5.88 ERA. Harden finished 2008 with the best ERA on the Cubs rotation and TT has already made the case for the rest of Harden's 2008 numbers. The Cubs didn't trade for Harden to build the franchise around him. They traded for Harden to secure a playoff spot. When your main divisional opponent acquires a Cy Young Award winner in the heat of a divisional race you have to react. That's what the Cubs did when they acquired Harden.

Hards Alumni · « **Reply #14 on:** December 27, 2009, 12:00:46 AM »

Quote from: Jimbo on December 26, 2009, 01:57:19 PM

Can't let this slide. Satchel Paige is a Hall of Fame pitcher. If Sachel is a pitcher, Harden is likely better.

To claim the Cubs would have easily won the division in 2008 with Gallagher in the rotation is a stretch. 3.5 games up at the beginning of July doesn't mean much when you have half a season left to play (especially considering the remaining divisional schedule which included 10 games against the Brewers - 6 in September alone). When the Cubs traded Gallagher he had started 10 games and earned a 3-4 record with a 4.45 ERA. Gallagher finished 2008 in Oakland with a 5.88 ERA. Harden finished 2008 with the best ERA on the Cubs rotation and TT has already made the case for the rest of Harden's 2008 numbers. The Cubs didn't trade for Harden to build the franchise around him. They traded for Harden to secure a playoff spot. When your main divisional opponent acquires a Cy Young Award winner in the heat of a divisional race you have to react. That's what the Cubs did when they acquired Harden.

The Cubs acquired Harden to make a run at the series.

They failed.

get over it Cubs fan.

TallTitan34 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 27, 2009, 01:24:55 AM »

What the hell is wrong with you Brewer fans? Why are you are so hell bent on trying to prove that Hendry sucks because of the Rich Harden trade?

You realize Cubs fans won't argue he sucks? You could use Milton Bradley, Kevin Gregg, Aaron Miles, etc as proof yet you go with Harden? Why?

All of this from a team that spent $10 on Eric Gagne. Incredible.

TallTitan34 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 27, 2009, 01:29:33 AM »

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 27, 2009, 12:00:46 AM

The Cubs acquired Harden to make a run at the series.

Then why did they trade for him immediately after the Brewers got CC? It was well before the trading deadline. Why not wait to see more of the injury prone Harden before trading for him? I mean according to you Brewer fans the Cubs had the division locked up so why not wait?

TallTitan34 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 27, 2009, 01:42:27 AM »

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 19, 2009, 10:56:15 AM

Now Sachel is part of the Texas Rangers signing for measely $6.5 million in 2010

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=4728983

This is barely more than Trevor Hoffman gets to pitch one inning every other day ($6 million).

Is this similar to the Brewers paying Gagne $1 million for every save in 2008?

🏀 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 27, 2009, 08:17:54 AM »

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 25, 2009, 05:56:28 AM

I guess you forgot the cubs won 97 games in 2008 and took the division by 7.5 games. They had a 3.5 game lead over the Brewers on July 8, 2008 (the day of the trade) and the best record in the NL.

The Cubs would have easily won the division with Gallagher in the 2008 rotation. So, Harden did nothing for them. They would have still won no playoff games in 2008 with or without Harden in the rotation.

So, if you want to redefine Harden as a rent a player trade for 2008, he's even more useless than I thought.

1.) Gallagher was not in the rotation full-time.
2.) If you go look at the Baseball thread, look a page 15 on. There are a lot of Brewer fans who thought they could win the division with CC. Why shouldn't the Cubs upgrade if they felt like the Brewers had a shot.

3.) You're still an idiot who has yet to make a decent point.

mu-rara · « **Reply #19 on:** January 05, 2010, 11:49:05 AM »

Does anyone picture the Cub fans on this board as a bunch of wrinkled, unmarried guys in their 20s or early 30s, living in Wrigleyville, kinda like that TBS show?

Do any of you Cub fans have a hot sister who's a sportswriter?

RawdogDX · « **Reply #20 on:** January 05, 2010, 02:23:12 PM »

If your standards are that every trade that doesn't result in a WS win than i suppose he's a bust. I also think that is ridiculous.

This trade was somewhere in between a bust and a success. It was an aggressive 'in it to win it move' and I would want them to make it again. It didn't work but you make that move. We had a scary line up that year.

And no, i'm not an unmarried man living in Wrigley.

Hards Alumni · « **Reply #21 on:** January 05, 2010, 02:24:45 PM »

Quote from: RawdogDX on January 05, 2010, 02:23:12 PM

If your standards are that every trade that doesn't result in a WS win than i suppose he's a bust. I also think that is ridiculous.

This trade was somewhere in between a bust and a success. It was an aggressive 'in it to win it move' and I would want them to make it again. It didn't work but you make that move. We had a scary line up that year.

And no, i'm not an unmarried man living in Wrigley.

except that you don't make a 'move' to have a 'good' year, you make a move to make a series run, typically.

JWags85 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 05, 2010, 05:02:13 PM »

Quote from: mu-rara on January 05, 2010, 11:49:05 AM

Does anyone picture the Cub fans on this board as a bunch of wrinkled, unmarried guys in their 20s or early 30s, living in Wrigleyville, kinda like that TBS show?

Do any of you Cub fans have a hot sister who's a sportswriter?

No but I can picture Brewers fans as overweight, with ill fitting, stained t-shirts, and obnoxious, hurling insults like FIB and stupid ass Cubs fan at my sister as she got out of my car, WEARING A BREWERS SHIRT, because the car has Illinois plates. Oh wait, that happened at the Brewers-Astros game I attended with my family this summer.

This discussion was getting lame and petty before this stupid ass comment. Its going to turn this thread into another insult fest, though I hope I am wrong. And honestly, comparing the appearances of Cubs vs Brewers fans is not an argument you are going to win.

SaintPaulWarrior · « **Reply #23 on:** January 05, 2010, 05:38:29 PM »

Quote from: JWags85 on January 05, 2010, 05:02:13 PM

And honestly, comparing the appearances of Cubs vs Brewers fans is not an argument you are going to win.

I call it a tie.

Hards Alumni · « **Reply #24 on:** January 05, 2010, 05:44:29 PM »

Quote from: JWags85 on January 05, 2010, 05:02:13 PM

No but I can picture Brewers fans as overweight, with ill fitting, stained t-shirts, and obnoxious, hurling insults like FIB and stupid ass Cubs fan at my sister as she got out of my car, WEARING A BREWERS SHIRT, because the car has Illinois plates. Oh wait, that happened at the Brewers-Astros game I attended with my family this summer.

This discussion was getting lame and petty before this stupid ass comment. Its going to turn this thread into another insult fest, though I hope I am wrong. And honestly, comparing the appearances of Cubs vs Brewers fans is not an argument you are going to win.

note to self: Avoid the rest of this thread.

It's toxic.

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Author Topic: It's Offical, Cubs Rich Harden A Bust, MUScoopers Know Nothing About Baseball (Read 9861 times)