NFC North Intelligent, Civilized Discussion 09/10 season

[Moonboots]

The bet is still on then.

Also, with all do respect, the last 1/2 of your post is more of the Packer fans "yea, but" rants.

I know the trends, and I agree that it is a concern. But, you guys keep trotting all of that stuff out here every week. Why? What are you trying to prove?

Here is what I've heard:

The vikes are good, but:
- Favre won't last, he's too old
- Favre fades in big games
- Favre will blow up against the packers
- The vikes schedule is soft
- The Vikes will have 2 losses headed to GB

I'm not denying some of the stuff you guys are saying, but you can't type it fast enough every time somebody says something positive about the Vikings.

When is it ok to call the Vikings a good team?

They ARE a good team.  But I really don't think that they're as good as their 5-0 record indicates, green and gold glasses or not.  At this moment, I think they're the fifth best team in the NFC behind the Giants, Saints, Eagles and Falcons.  That's nothing to be ashamed of, but much of the down talk on the Vikings in the other thread was in response to the "Consensus" talk and being the best team in the NFC, or in the league, what have you.  Almost none of that came from you.

I don't know if it's going to take a few games of them getting exposed to bring this back down to earth.  It's easy to ride high when you're 5-0, and I'd be enjoying it if it were me, too.  But I watch a lot of football, and then I re-watch a lot of football. And then I watch it again.  It's been a hobby of mine for more than five years now (starting with VHS tapes and now with DVR), and I trust what I see.  

And what I see is a secondary that is in the bottom half of the NFL EVEN WITH an elite NFL pass rush, and that's difficult to do.  Luckily, Favre and co. have been very protective of the ball through five games.  If that continues, you're good as gold at 12-4 and cruising through this division.  But with a fumble prone RB and the most turnover prone QB, do I see that continuing for 16 games?  No way.  The Vikings will lose some games they should lose this year, and will also lose one or two they shouldn't, and that will make this division a lot closer than the comfort level they display right now.

Upon re-reading my last post, it smacks of bitter Packer fan, and I apologize for not elaborating on the fact that I DO actually have reasons for what I say other than blind hope that the Vikings crumble.  But I'm just making it known as I watch for the second time Boller and Bulger moving the ball up and down the field at a 71% clip to the likes of Keenan Burton and Danny Amendola that teams not called the Browns, Lions or Rams aren't going to bail you out inside the 10 yard line three times in a game, and it's how the Vikings respond when THAT type of pressure is on that will cement them among the NFL's elite.

After re-watching the Denver game this morning, watching the efficiency with which that team gets off the field in key situations and how their play calling evolves based on what a good defense was giving them just screams elite.  I apologize for not seeing that same thing in the Vikes this year through five games.

I really want to avoid making it sound like it's just me as a Packer fan crooning for the Vikes to fail. I promise it's me as a football fan telling it how I see it after watching umpteen games this season multiple times.  The main reason I said I was so shaky on the Ravens game is that I've only seen them in one game this season, against the Chargers, and while I like what I saw execution wise, only seeing one game can tell a lot of lies compared to a broader sample size.

[DegenerateDish]

Before the start of the 2006 season, the Bears had a handshake agreement with Thomas Jones to trade him in the off season following that year, and they obliged.

What Ced Benson or Orton are doing/not doing is meaningless to me as a Bears fan. How any one could care what Benson is doing in Cincy now, after what he pulled in Chicago, is crazy.

I know the Vikes/Pack meet in 3 weeks, but focusing on the next two weeks in the division is quite interesting. Pack has a chance to get healthy record wise, with the Lions and Browns on tap. Bears have a very interesting next two games, @ Atl, @ Cincy. The game with the Falcons is huge. With the Falcons probably chasing the Saints, and Bears probably chasing the Vikes all year, this has the potential to be a huge game come playoff time. We'll know how elite the Vikes are after these next two weeks as well. For the favors the schedule makers gave the Vikes early, karma comes back these next two games.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

They ARE a good team.  But I really don't think that they're as good as their 5-0 record indicates, green and gold glasses or not.  At this moment, I think they're the fifth best team in the NFC behind the Giants, Saints, Eagles and Falcons.  That's nothing to be ashamed of, but much of the down talk on the Vikings in the other thread was in response to the "Consensus" talk and being the best team in the NFC, or in the league, what have you.  Almost none of that came from you.

I don't know if it's going to take a few games of them getting exposed to bring this back down to earth.  It's easy to ride high when you're 5-0, and I'd be enjoying it if it were me, too.  But I watch a lot of football, and then I re-watch a lot of football. And then I watch it again.  It's been a hobby of mine for more than five years now (starting with VHS tapes and now with DVR), and I trust what I see.  

And what I see is a secondary that is in the bottom half of the NFL EVEN WITH an elite NFL pass rush, and that's difficult to do.  Luckily, Favre and co. have been very protective of the ball through five games.  If that continues, you're good as gold at 12-4 and cruising through this division.  But with a fumble prone RB and the most turnover prone QB, do I see that continuing for 16 games?  No way.  The Vikings will lose some games they should lose this year, and will also lose one or two they shouldn't, and that will make this division a lot closer than the comfort level they display right now.

Upon re-reading my last post, it smacks of bitter Packer fan, and I apologize for not elaborating on the fact that I DO actually have reasons for what I say other than blind hope that the Vikings crumble.  But I'm just making it known as I watch for the second time Boller and Bulger moving the ball up and down the field at a 71% clip to the likes of Keenan Burton and Danny Amendola that teams not called the Browns, Lions or Rams aren't going to bail you out inside the 10 yard line three times in a game, and it's how the Vikings respond when THAT type of pressure is on that will cement them among the NFL's elite.

After re-watching the Denver game this morning, watching the efficiency with which that team gets off the field in key situations and how their play calling evolves based on what a good defense was giving them just screams elite.  I apologize for not seeing that same thing in the Vikes this year through five games.

I really want to avoid making it sound like it's just me as a Packer fan crooning for the Vikes to fail. I promise it's me as a football fan telling it how I see it after watching umpteen games this season multiple times.  The main reason I said I was so shaky on the Ravens game is that I've only seen them in one game this season, against the Chargers, and while I like what I saw execution wise, only seeing one game can tell a lot of lies compared to a broader sample size.

Good response, and I agree with a lot of what you have said, it's just interesting to read the "yea but wait for..." stuff every week.

I know the Vikes are not the best team in football, and I think they will probably finish the season at 7-4 for the next 11 games, which is decent, but not world beating.

It sounds like you watch a lot (too much) football, so I'll take you at your word that you're not a bitter Packers fan, and you are trying to be objective about what you see. 

[Moonboots]

Good response, and I agree with a lot of what you have said, it's just interesting to read the "yea but wait for..." stuff every week.

I know the Vikes are not the best team in football, and I think they will probably finish the season at 7-4 for the next 11 games, which is decent, but not world beating.

It sounds like you watch a lot (too much) football, so I'll take you at your word that you're not a bitter Packers fan, and you are trying to be objective about what you see. 

Probably true.  I'll admit to being a wanna-be scout and actually working in football operations some day, but since that's kind of a pipe dream I'm looking to work this Marquette education into a job on the business side of football instead.

[Skatastrophy]

Modified thread title to be specific to this season.  Let's start a new one every season so it doesn't get too long.  Back to the regularly scheduled topic.

The last thread was started in August, so it hit 30-some pages in 2 months.  I think getting long may be unavoidable.

On Topic:  I didn't watch much football this weekend because I was running around with the wifey, but I turned on AM 620 (in Milwaukee) in the car.  Much to my chagrin they were playing an old Packers vs Falcons game... on the radio.  I had no idea it was a replay until Brett Favre started connecting on passes for us   It was like War of the Worlds, but more distressing!

[MU B2002]

  Much to my chagrin they were playing an old Packers vs Falcons game... on the radio.  I had no idea it was a replay until Brett Favre started connecting on passes for us   It was like War of the Worlds, but more distressing!

Was that the Mike Vick playoff game, or would that be to much for the Packer fans to handle during the bye week?

[Moonboots]

Was that the Mike Vick playoff game, or would that be to much for the Packer fans to handle during the bye week?

Ouch, kill me.  That game was awful.  I think it was either the 1995 Wild Card game, or the 1994 regular season game which propelled the Pack into the playoffs (also the last Packer game ever at County Stadium).

[GGGG]

Ouch, kill me.  That game was awful.  I think it was either the 1995 Wild Card game, or the 1994 regular season game which propelled the Pack into the playoffs (also the last Packer game ever at County Stadium).

I was at the game in County Stadium!  When Favre scrambled for the end zone with no timeouts remaining, I was shouting "NOOOOO!!!!"

Then he dives and gets in...

I gotta admit, even though he plays for the Vikings, it's hard not to love the guy.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The packers roll big today and nobody wants to talk about it?

Vander Blue is a more amazing story than I realized.

[IAmMarquette]

The packers roll big today and nobody wants to talk about it?

Vander Blue is a more amazing story than I realized.

That was about the least-impressive 26-point shutout you'll ever see. Happy the Pack got the W, and has next week in Cleveland to figure their sh!t out before the rematch with MN in Green Bay.

Thought the Ravens were going to help us out a bit today. Kickers....

[DegenerateDish]

Just a horrendously played game by the Bears. Killer turnovers in the red zone, killer penalties, pretty embarrassing coming off a bye week to be so sloppy.

[NavinRJohnson]

That Packer game was virtually unwatchable...The outcome was never in doubt, and it was just a horribly played game.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The bears are in a little trouble, but they aren't out of it.

I think after week 8, the Vikes will be 6-2 the Packers will be 5-2 (after beating the Vikes) and the Bears will be 4-3. The Bears will need to pull a couple of road game upsets, and they will be right back in it.

I think this division will go down to the last game.

Vikes looked good for 75% of the game, but the pass defense was pretty bad, and the play-calling got progressively worse as the game went on (it was great on the opening 2 drives).

6-0 is great, but the Vikes don't really have control of the division yet. They need to win a tough road games (either Pitt or GB) and then they will really be in the drivers seat at 7-1 (although I don't think that will happen).

[DegenerateDish]

If the Vikings win at Lambeau, the division race is over.

The pure football fan in me would love to see Vikings/Saints in the playoffs. I know they don't meet in the regular season, but that'd be a heck of a game.

[NavinRJohnson]

Vikes looked good for 75% of the game, but the pass defense was pretty bad...

6-0 is great, but the Vikes don't really have control of the division yet. They need to win a tough road games (either Pitt or GB) and then they will really be in the drivers seat at 7-1 (although I don't think that will happen).

Both teams pass defense was bad...that Ravens' defense is really a shadow of its former self.

6-0 is great, but the Vikes don't really have control of the division yet. They need to win a tough road games (either Pitt or GB) and then they will really be in the drivers seat at 7-1 (although I don't think that will happen).

That is 100% correct. I do expect the Vikings and Packers to be essentially tied after they play. However, I am beginning to think more and more that there is little hope for the Packers. That O-Line seems to be getting worse instead of better. If they could find a way to shore that up, they would be pretty darn good. I don't think they are going to be able to do that though.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Both teams pass defense was bad...that Ravens' defense is really a shadow of its former self.

That is 100% correct. I do expect the Vikings and Packers to be essentially tied after they play. However, I am beginning to think more and more that there is little hope for the Packers. That O-Line seems to be getting worse instead of better. If they could find a way to shore that up, they would be pretty darn good. I don't think they are going to be able to do that though.

The Pack's schedule sets up pretty nicely, but they will have to win a tough game on the road if they want to win the division, and with the aforementioned offensive line, it will be tough.

I know this isn't ground-breaking, but the division will probably come down to these 3 things:
1. Injuries
2. Big road wins (which team can come up with 1 or 2 that they really "shouldn't" win, like @PITT, or @ CINCI)
3. Who loses to Detroit first (The Lions still aren't good, but they are good enough to ruin somebody's season)

Every team has their warts, and we know what they are... but the 3 things listed above will tell the story of the division.

 

[LON]

Any news on Winfield's injury?  That could be KILLER

And I agree, the Packers game yesterday was more than hard to watch.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Any news on Winfield's injury?  That could be KILLER

And I agree, the Packers game yesterday was more than hard to watch.

Sprained foot.

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_13594813

Could be out this week, but it doesn't look like it's going to keep him out for an extended period.

[LON]

Sprained foot.

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_13594813

Could be out this week, but it doesn't look like it's going to keep him out for an extended period.

That's good news for the Vikings pass D.  It's fun watching Winfield stick his nose into every play considering his size.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

That's good news for the Vikings pass D.  It's fun watching Winfield stick his nose into every play considering his size.

Pound for pound, Winfield is the best tackler on that team, and one of the better ones in the league.

He is VERY tough.

I hope he can play this week, but I definitely want him to comeback healthy against the Pack. Rodgers can definitely sling the ball around. The Vikes will need Winfield.

[LON]

Winfield may be out...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/10/22/winfield-apparently-wont-go/

[Jay Bee]

I doubt Winfield will play at this point.  There's some talk of using him in 'limited situations' and going with a mixture of Paymah, Sapp, Allen and maybe Winfield, but whatever the case it's not looking good for at least this week.  We've got tough games coming up, but a bye week is in sight.  With our stronghold on the NFC North lead, I'd lean towards letting Winfield rest.  Of course, if things look as dismal as they did late in the game vs. the Ravens, that could make for an ugly couple of weeks going up against Big Ben and Erin. 

Adrian's ankle got twisted on Sunday, but supposedly isn't too bad.  Chili says, "he's sore all over" when asked about AP's ankle.  AD is already getting limited action in Wednesday practices, which I think is good.  But, I do worry about his health.  I'd hate to rely on a 40 year old gunslinger that throws nonstop INTs.

Besides Antoine and AD being a little banged up, Loadholt continues to have a nagging ankle, Madieu Williams a quad and Percy Harvin a re-aggravated shoulder.  It may just be Winfield that is out this weekend.  Of course, all teams work through injuries - at least we're not the Browns (yet). 

The biggest issue the Consensus Vikings have is that there are rumors of a Chili-extension.  I can't argue with getting victories, but I am still not big on Childress.  Unlike the Packers, which literally have huge (female) fans, I'm not sure he has many huge fans. 

By the way, Favre is completing passes at a 69.7% clip, with 12 TDs and 2 picks, good for a 109.5 rating, behind only Peyton and Drew.  But, we're almost to week 9, when his arm will fall off and he'll blow the season for us like he did for the Jets.

PS - I bet Vander Blue is a Vikings fan... the kid has got great taste. 

[MU B2002]

Thanks for underlining stronghold....  makes it easier to point out that it is the incorrect word.  I think you mean stranglehold, just ask Ted Nugent.

And yes, I only point this out as a bitter Bears fan who seems destined to be asking where you would like your winnings sent.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stronghold

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stranglehold

[LON]

Thanks for underlining stronghold....  makes it easier to point out that it is the incorrect word.  I think you mean stranglehold, just ask Ted Nugent.

And yes, I only point this out as a bitter Bears fan who seems destined to be asking where you would like your winnings sent.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stronghold

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stranglehold

As a Bears fan I would think you'd be the last one to "crown their ass" seeing as how it's only week 7...

[MU B2002]

Sssshhh   I'm trying to jinx them.


And that to this day is still one of my favorite youtube videos.