MU - Xavier

[GGGG]

As for the Virginia job and those expectations, I don't agree.  Bennett is coming into a nice spot there. UVa is in the dumper and has been for awhile, you can only go up.  If you were a coach looking to come to MU where many perceived us to be at our ceiling, which job has more upside potential?   For the new UVa coach, the goal is to get to the NCAA tournament consistently, something they've struggled with of late.  For the new MU coach, the expecations at the very least keeping pace with what Crean did and possibly taking that next step.  Which is harder?   I'm guessing Bennett and Miller thought the MU job is harder to reach those goals.....let's not forget that this recent run by Crean hadn't been duplicated by anyone not named Al McGuire, whereas the periodic runs by UVa been been accomplished by multiple coaches.

I don't think you know UVa fans enough if you think that their expectations are merely getting to the NCAA tournament consistently.

[79Warrior]

I'm not against starting a series with Xavier.     Not a priority but not against it. 

We played them often in the 70's. I would not mind a series with them, good program.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't think you know UVa fans enough if you think that their expectations are merely getting to the NCAA tournament consistently.

I know expectations are high at UVa, I'm looking at it from the perspective of what can be accomplished.  Is there more upside at UVa in their present state or at MU's state last year?  In my opinion (and from the sounds of it...Miller and Bennett), the upside was elsewhere.

It's easier to come in to a place when the chips are down then to keep something going at a high level, especially if it's been decades since that high level had been reached.  Just human nature.  I think there's a significant reason why we landed an assistant coach and not an experienced one.....the assistant coach was willing to take it. 

PRN mentioned that two of the Big East teams made it to the Final Four, very true.  It's not like it can't happen at MU, of course it can.  But both of those Big East teams had top 3 seeds.  UCONN, who just missed on the Final Four, also had a top 3 seed.  Let's also not forget that Nova played their first two games in their own city.  Seeding is key....can MU make a big enough breakthrough to get a top 3 seed in the NCAAs while playing in the Big East?

[NotAnAlum]

Don't want to turn this Xavier thread into a UVa thread but I must admit that I was surprised about the Bennett to UVa new and I don't see either party as ending up statisfied.  I for one think Bennett is pretty over rated.  He had a couple of good years ,mostly with his Father's talent.  He has not proven that he can recruit the kind of talent necessary to compete in the ACC (and sometimes I wonder if he even WHATS to recruit that kind of talent).  Based on what I have seen of Buzz particularly his recruiting I would not trade coaches with UVa right now.
As for Bennett's prospective I think its tougher to be a mid level team in the ACC than in the BE.  First of all you can pretty much count on UNC and Duke being top 10 teams every year as long as Roy and Coach K are there.  Even teams like UConn and Pitt have off years.  Second the ACC does not have the 4 or so bottom feeders that a mid level team can pretty much count as wins.  NC State, G-Tech, Miami are all "improving".  At this point UVa IS THE bottom feeder in the ACC.
I see Bennett pulling a few upsets but never having the talent to get above 500 in the ACC.  Therefore no NCAA tourn trips and eventually he'll leave (or be fired) and go to a mid major where he can win with average talent and play the role of giant killer from time to time.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Don't want to turn this Xavier thread into a UVa thread but I must admit that I was surprised about the Bennett to UVa new and I don't see either party as ending up statisfied.  I for one think Bennett is pretty over rated.  He had a couple of good years ,mostly with his Father's talent.  He has not proven that he can recruit the kind of talent necessary to compete in the ACC (and sometimes I wonder if he even WHATS to recruit that kind of talent).  Based on what I have seen of Buzz particularly his recruiting I would not trade coaches with UVa right now.
As for Bennett's prospective I think its tougher to be a mid level team in the ACC than in the BE.  First of all you can pretty much count on UNC and Duke being top 10 teams every year as long as Roy and Coach K are there.  Even teams like UConn and Pitt have off years.  Second the ACC does not have the 4 or so bottom feeders that a mid level team can pretty much count as wins.  NC State, G-Tech, Miami are all "improving".  At this point UVa IS THE bottom feeder in the ACC.
I see Bennett pulling a few upsets but never having the talent to get above 500 in the ACC.  Therefore no NCAA tourn trips and eventually he'll leave (or be fired) and go to a mid major where he can win with average talent and play the role of giant killer from time to time.

Could very well be, but as you said it....UVa is at the bottom already. Only place to go is up.  Some coaches see that as an opportunity rather than trying to maintain something at a school that hasn't been done for decades (some coaches perceive what happened at MU to be all because of Crean and not institutional).

Hopefully it works out for all parties, especially MU.

[NotAnAlum]

I also beleive that UVa GROSSLY overpaid for Bennett but I guess there is no connection between salary and value when it comes to coaches.  Maybe Tony knows the odds are long against him but by the time the powers that be figure that out he'll have made enough to set himself up for life.

[Marquette84]

Especially with Bennett taking the UVa job the next year.  Much tougher job than MU expectation-wise.

I think expectations are lower at Virginia.

10+ conferences wins and 20+ overall wins and a 3rd or 4th place ACC finish would make their fans overjoyed.

Similar performance at MU will begin to create problems for Buzz.  4th place in the Big East would be considered a underachivement--especially with the talent Buzz has recruited.  

I think its going to be easier for Bennett to finish 3rd or 4th in the ACC than it will be for Buzz to do the same in the Big East--and their fans will be more forgiving of a finish behind UNC and Duke than ours will for a finish behind Villanova and UConn.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Similar performance at MU will begin to create problems for Buzz.  4th place in the Big East would be considered a underachivement--especially with the talent Buzz has recruited.  

WHAT?!? If we finish 4th in the Big East next year Buzz should be national coach of the year!

4th place! An underachievement?

Are you having some kind of breakdown?

[ChicosBailBonds]

No doubt the Big East is a meat grinder, but didn't two of our teams make it the Final Four with four in the Elite 8?

I believe our president and AD are both full of it on the people turning us down because it's too tough, by the way. I believe people may have used words "tough" when describing our conference, but perhaps it was something called "negotiation"...a process we seem to have difficulty with.

You really think Wild and Cottingham lied about that perception in the press conference and post interviews weeks later?  Why, to what benefit?

[Marquette84]

WHAT?!? If we finish 4th in the Big East next year Buzz should be national coach of the year!

4th place! An underachievement?

Are you having some kind of breakdown?

I base my comment on past history. 

In 2006 with a largely freshman team we finished tied for fourth, and yet a significant number of people to this day complain that we had no big east calibre players, we were poorly coached, and we underachieved.

With the #1 recruiting class and a player from the 2009 USA Men's World University Games Team, I would think that 2006 performance (tied for 4th place) would represent the floor for expectations for this year's team.  I have to think that most would expect league championships after that, with the talent coming in for next year.

[Marquette84]

WHAT?!? If we finish 4th in the Big East next year Buzz should be national coach of the year!

4th place! An underachievement?

Are you having some kind of breakdown?

I base my comment on past history.  

In 2006, with a largely freshman team, we finished tied for fourth, and yet a significant number of people to this day complain that we had no big east calibre players, we were poorly coached, and we underachieved.

With the #1 recruiting class and a player from the 2009 USA Men's World University Games Team, I would think that 2006 performance (tied for 4th place) would represent the floor for expectations for this year's team.  I have to think that most would expect league championships after that with the talent coming in for next year.

The expectations from MU fans are far higher than they are at Virginia.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

You really think Wild and Cottingham lied about that perception in the press conference and post interviews weeks later?  Why, to what benefit?

I think you know the answer to that. They "misled" people because they knew a HUGE majority of people were stunned at the hiring "process" and they were trying to save face. There is no chance they had meaningful discussions with people in the timeframe. Buzz was a Strong hire. They couldn't exactly say that.

To suggest that Tony Bennett didn't want to coach at Marquette because it was too hard is ridiculous. You know that!

[Silky]

Agenda alert!  You are so predictable.  

I think expectations are lower at Virginia.

10+ conferences wins and 20+ overall wins and a 3rd or 4th place ACC finish would make their fans overjoyed.

Similar performance at MU will begin to create problems for Buzz.  4th place in the Big East would be considered a underachivement--especially with the talent Buzz has recruited.  

I think its going to be easier for Bennett to finish 3rd or 4th in the ACC than it will be for Buzz to do the same in the Big East--and their fans will be more forgiving of a finish behind UNC and Duke than ours will for a finish behind Villanova and UConn.

[Silky]

Tony Bennett did not want to coach at MU.  End of story.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I base my comment on past history. 

In 2006 with a largely freshman team we finished tied for fourth, and yet a significant number of people to this day complain that we had no big east calibre players, we were poorly coached, and we underachieved.

With the #1 recruiting class and a player from the 2009 USA Men's World University Games Team, I would think that 2006 performance (tied for 4th place) would represent the floor for expectations for this year's team.  I have to think that most would expect league championships after that, with the talent coming in for next year.

Is this another one of your posts where you have no agenda and are not trying to bait people?

Just when I think you've hit rock bottom...you pull out the pick axe and get back to work!!

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think you know the answer to that. They "misled" people because they knew a HUGE majority of people were stunned at the hiring "process" and they were trying to save face. There is no chance they had meaningful discussions with people in the timeframe. Buzz was a Strong hire. They couldn't exactly say that.

To suggest that Tony Bennett didn't want to coach at Marquette because it was too hard is ridiculous. You know that!

Perhaps, but it does not strike me as odd in the least that they (perspective coaches alledgedly interviewed) would feel MU was at it's ceiling.  I believe it was Mike DeCourcey or some other national sportswriter that said the same thing when it came to analyzing MU's coaching search and the upside/downside.  I guess we'll never truly know.  In my mind, I could see the rationale by some coaches saying it's easier to win at a place like UVa then at MU....but I could also see a coach saying the exact opposite.  It's not a cut and dry position in my view.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Decourcey? If we're listening to the freaking MEDIA! about the appeal of our head coaching job as a certain somebody is texting every last jerkoff with a media pass about how he'd "taken them as far as he could" then we have some real problems.

You realize that's what happened here, don't you? It might be a little more publicly palatable than O'Neill's comments on his way out the door, but no less damning!

I didn't like the hire of Buzz Williams and I still don't. But I will bet you that he never pulls anything like that.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Decourcey? If we're listening to the freaking MEDIA! about the appeal of our head coaching job as a certain somebody is texting every last jerkoff with a media pass about how he'd "taken them as far as he could" then we have some real problems.

You realize that's what happened here, don't you? It might be a little more publicly palatable than O'Neill's comments on his way out the door, but no less damning!

I didn't like the hire of Buzz Williams and I still don't. But I will bet you that he never pulls anything like that.

I don't recall who it was, but a reporter that claimed to have part of the inside scoop.  If I find it, I'll post it.  It may have been DeCourcey.

[Marquette84]

Agenda alert!  You are so predictable.  

I state that MU fans have higher expectations fans than Virginia fans, and to you that represents an agenda?

I think I could state the court is 94 feet long and you'd prance around shouting "agenda! agenda!". 

[dsfire]

I base my comment on past history.  

In 2006, with a largely freshman team, we finished tied for fourth, and yet a significant number of people to this day complain that we had no big east calibre players, we were poorly coached, and we underachieved.

I'd like to see anyone make the argument that DJ, Jerel, Wes, or Novak were not Big East-caliber players.  For that matter, Chapman and Fitz were respectable coming off the bench.  Big men, well, that's a different argument with Barro and Amo as sophomores and Kinsella and Grimm being the experienced big men.

Also... who the hell claimed we overachieved in 05-06, and what were they smoking?

With the #1 recruiting class and a player from the 2009 USA Men's World University Games Team, I would think that 2006 performance (tied for 4th place) would represent the floor for expectations for this year's team.  I have to think that most would expect league championships after that with the talent coming in for next year.

You don't think the hyperbole is just a touch thick here?

The expectations from MU fans are far higher than they are at Virginia.

If those were truly your expectations based upon the arguments you set forth, you'd probably fit in much better as a Kentucky fan.

[Silky]

No, you aren't fooling anyone.  You clearly stated that if we don't finish better than 4 years ago, it's a disappointment.  Never mind the fact faulty comparisons like that never take into consideration the schedule, injuries and competition of the league or not having 3 experienced seniors from a Final Four team. 

You have an agenda and you know it.  And everyone else is figuring it out also. 

I state that MU fans have higher expectations fans than Virginia fans, and to you that represents an agenda?

I think I could state the court is 94 feet long and you'd prance around shouting "agenda! agenda!". 

[bilsu]

I base my comment on past history.  

In 2006, with a largely freshman team, we finished tied for fourth, and yet a significant number of people to this day complain that we had no big east calibre players, we were poorly coached, and we underachieved.

With the #1 recruiting class and a player from the 2009 USA Men's World University Games Team, I would think that 2006 performance (tied for 4th place) would represent the floor for expectations for this year's team.  I have to think that most would expect league championships after that with the talent coming in for next year.

The expectations from MU fans are far higher than they are at Virginia.

Villanova and Uconn recruiting classes are ranked higher than ours. We are picked to finished 12th in some preseason polls. I do not know where we are going to finish, but I expect it is closer to 12th than 4th. I will predict with confidence that DePaul finishes 16th, so the worst we will be is 15th.

[Marquette84]

Villanova and Uconn recruiting classes are ranked higher than ours. We are picked to finished 12th in some preseason polls. I do not know where we are going to finish, but I expect it is closer to 12th than 4th. I will predict with confidence that DePaul finishes 16th, so the worst we will be is 15th.

According to this site, we are #1, Villanova #4, UConn not in the top 20.
http://www.hoopscooponline.com/visitors/free-visitors.html

[Golden Avalanche]

Back to the topic title, in my opinion Xavier is the better program in the last 15 years.

MU has reached higher peaks as it relates to accomplishments (Final Four) and hype (Dwyane Wade) but head-to-head Xavier blows MU out of the water in terms of NCAA Tournament appearances and achievements; NBA-produced players; Coaching talent, etc.

[muarmy81]

I base my comment on past history.  

In 2006, with a largely freshman team, we finished tied for fourth, and yet a significant number of people to this day complain that we had no big east calibre players, we were poorly coached, and we underachieved.

With the #1 recruiting class and a player from the 2009 USA Men's World University Games Team, I would think that 2006 performance (tied for 4th place) would represent the floor for expectations for this year's team.  I have to think that most would expect league championships after that with the talent coming in for next year.

The expectations from MU fans are far higher than they are at Virginia.

Getting a dobule bye in next year's BE tourney would be the FLOOR for our expectations?!  Wow, I'll have what you're drinking/smoking...