Mr. Barro

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Well, I don't know the Novak's personally, but I did meet them at the game up in MN. They were very complimentary towards the coach back then.

Now, things could have changed... but that's not the point.

The point is this:

You claim that college basketball players who spend a TON of time with TC don't have the ability to judge his true character... but you have the ability to see that he is a terrible person from watching him on TV and reading about him?

Is this an accurate statement?

No, it's not an accurate statement. I have the ability from meeting the guy on several occasions, listening to his BS in several forums and from directly speaking to people who dealt with him and his wife on a regular basis.

Nukeem: Feel free to ignore me.

[GGGG]

I didn't say I did.  That's why I asked the question.  I never heard about the commercial with Buzz.  Last years deal where it seemed like he knew about the possible move and didn't say anything raised my eyebrows at the time, was followed by the quick transfer of his son, followed now by b-ball camp.  If others have better info and are comfortable with it, I'm happy to take their word for it.   Frankly, part of my annoyance is that everytime an MU person shows up at a TC thing at II, II,  some of the Indiana posters get all gleeful about it and try to appropriate that person, and sometimes it starts to bug me. 
Hope all is well with Barro, he was always one of my favorites.

The problem is that too many people view this as either you are with us or you are with TC.  Reality doesn't work that way.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

No, it's not an accurate statement. I have the ability from meeting the guy on several occasions, listening to his BS in several forums and from directly speaking to people who dealt with him and his wife on a regular basis.

Nukeem: Feel free to ignore me.

ok, sure. I get that.

But, why is your opinion, or the opinion of the people you talk to worth so much more than others?

Doc Rivers seems to have dealt with Crean on numerous occasions. And he hates the guy so much that he let his kid go play for him. Also, the legendary Al McGuire had nice things to say about TC. Most of the former players also have high praise. I know several former managers who said Crean was notoriously hard on them, but they appreciated everything he did for them after they graduated.

I get it that you don't like the guy. That's great. Good for you. You have an opinion. We get it.

But, the constant questioning of anybody that mildly liked the guy is getting really tiresome.

Doc Rivers now is being questioned because he showed up at his son's college basketball camp? C'mon.

[rocky_warrior]

So -uh - this thread is about Barro huh?

Glad to see he's still hangin' with the program.

[Hards Alumni]

one time, I took a huge crap, and what came out was a TC pro vs. con argument.

I apologize.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

But, the constant questioning of anybody that mildly liked the guy is getting really tiresome.

Doc Rivers now is being questioned because he showed up at his son's college basketball camp? C'mon.

I'll tell you what's tiresome. You're lack of comprehension. I never said a single word about anybody going to anybody's basketball camp.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'll tell you what's tiresome. You're lack of comprehension. I never said a single word about anybody going to anybody's basketball camp.

You're right.

You questioned Doc Rivers judgment for "singing Crean's praises" because your opinion of Crean is negative.

I apologize. I mixed 2 posts together.

The question still remains: Why are you right and all of these other people are wrong? How are you able to see through everything that Doc Rivers and former players can't? A lot of these guys have spent extended time with him. How could they all be so wrong?

How are you so sure?

[muarmy81]

2002
Here's a question:  why are you so concerned with PRN's opinion?

Back to the topic at hand,  Ooze was a good player, err something like that.

[rugbydrummer]

2002
Here's a question:  why are you so concerned with PRN's opinion?

Back to the topic at hand,  Ooze was a good player, err something like that.

for Halloween in 2006, my friend and I so creatively went as MU bball players (I had to put my jerseys to good use!)  I went as Diener, and she went as Novak (she's taller).  In true baller fashion, I had an empty milk jug, so i filled that up with water and used it as a prop; i also had some long MU bball shorts which i wore around my ankles, haha, and one of those navy blue winter hats with the old bball logo on it.  It was on a Tuesday, and one of our classmates was having a party;  I lived in Humphrey at the time, so after getting our gear on, we headed down the long hall to the elevator bay; we heard the doors ding open about 1/2-3/4 of the way down and trotted to get there faster, seeing that someone was getting on; turns out Ousmanne was there holding the door for us!  A little sheepish ourselves, we got on and slunk toward the back, exchanging mortified looks with one another and desperately trying not to burst out laughing... well, hopefully he got a little laugh out of that!! 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

2002
Here's a question:  why are you so concerned with PRN's opinion?

Back to the topic at hand,  Ooze was a good player, err something like that.

Aw hell. I suppose I should answer this.

I guess I just don't like when not-so-subtle jabs are taken at anybody/everybody that has anything to do with Tom Crean. Personally, I don't care that PRN hates him. He can hate him all he wants. Great. Tom Crean sucks. Awesome.

But, when PRN makes bold statements, like questioning Doc Rivers' judgment just because Doc likes Crean, I just have to ask the questions of "why"?

Why do all of these other people say good things about Crean, but PRN thinks Crean is Satan personified? Why do all sorts of former players and people involved with the program say good things about Tom Crean?

Is EVERYBODY in the dark but PRN? We all are terrible judges of character? PRN can tell what type of guy Crean is from a couple of brief meetings and some comments from some friends? But Dwyane Wade, Travis, Steve, etc. are all getting the wool pulled over their eyes for years?

It just seems ridiculous to me, and I feel compelled to comment.

EDIT: For the record, I don't think TC is perfect. But, I certainly don't call people's judgment into question when they say they like(d) the guy... that's going over the top and is insane.

[Warriors4ever]

I'm sorry this has segued into a pro/anti Crean thing.  As I first raised the basketball camp thing,  I'm compelled to say that I can totally understand him doing an Indiana camp with his son being there, my question more had to do with whether he had ever done a Marquette one.  Obviously he thinks highly of our former coach or his kid wouldn't be there.  Back to the original point, I and I'm sure some others are more interested in finding out what Barro is doing these days, especially with the visa issues.

[Lennys Tap]

Aw hell. I suppose I should answer this.

I guess I just don't like when not-so-subtle jabs are taken at anybody/everybody that has anything to do with Tom Crean. Personally, I don't care that PRN hates him. He can hate him all he wants. Great. Tom Crean sucks. Awesome.

But, when PRN makes bold statements, like questioning Doc Rivers' judgment just because Doc likes Crean, I just have to ask the questions of "why"?

Why do all of these other people say good things about Crean, but PRN thinks Crean is Satan personified? Why do all sorts of former players and people involved with the program say good things about Tom Crean?

Is EVERYBODY in the dark but PRN? We all are terrible judges of character? PRN can tell what type of guy Crean is from a couple of brief meetings and some comments from some friends? But Dwyane Wade, Travis, Steve, etc. are all getting the wool pulled over their eyes for years?

It just seems ridiculous to me, and I feel compelled to comment.

EDIT: For the record, I don't think TC is perfect. But, I certainly don't call people's judgment into question when they say they like(d) the guy... that's going over the top and is insane.

Bold that you would go "on the record" that TC isn't perfect. Hope you don't think I'm overly critical saying that neither are the other 3,000,000,000 people on the planet.

Look, here's the thing. It's not the least bit surprising that Doc Rivers, Tony LaRussa, Mike McCarthy, D. Wade,the national media and any number of accomplished, powerful or influential people would speak highly of TC. These are the types that TC courts, and he is both a skilled and persistant suitor. But for me being genuine, thoughtful and human towards only those who can advance your career or feed your ego while you're bullying, berating or ignoring those who can't advance your agenda (secretaries, trainers, team doctors, managers, non-star players, etc) is the textbook definition of a phony. Feel free to disagree, but PLEASE don't give me the BS that all coaches (or some made up number like 90%) are like that. Our present coach is certainly not, nor were Al, Hank, Rick, Dukiet or Deane.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Bold that you would go "on the record" that TC isn't perfect. Hope you don't think I'm overly critical saying that neither are the other 3,000,000,000 people on the planet.

Look, here's the thing. It's not the least bit surprising that Doc Rivers, Tony LaRussa, Mike McCarthy, D. Wade,the national media and any number of accomplished, powerful or influential people would speak highly of TC. These are the types that TC courts, and he is both a skilled and persistant suitor. But for me being genuine, thoughtful and human towards only those who can advance your career or feed your ego while you're bullying, berating or ignoring those who can't advance your agenda (secretaries, trainers, team doctors, managers, non-star players, etc) is the textbook definition of a phony. Feel free to disagree, but PLEASE don't give me the BS that all coaches (or some made up number like 90%) are like that. Our present coach is certainly not, nor were Al, Hank, Rick, Dukiet or Deane.

Good points. I think something is being lost in the message board style of communication.

So, your point is that Crean is nice to  people that he needs and a jerk to people he doesn't. Right?

That's not unbelievable. I can't deny that.

But, don't you think the players that see him everyday would see that type of behavior? Wouldn't the managers see that? Why would they say anything nice about him ever if he was as evil as some people portray him? Is he really only bad behind closed doors and the players never see it? I don't think this is believable.

HE'S NOT PERFECT. I'VE NEVER SAID THIS WAS A BOLD STATEMENT. IT'S A STATEMENT OF FACT.

BUT, HE'S ALSO NOT SATAN, AND JUST BECAUSE DOC RIVERS, DWYANE WADE, AL MCGUIRE, AND DIANA JOHNSON FROM OAK CREEK LIKE HIM, DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE BAD JUDGMENT. 

Sometimes he's written about like he's Stalin or Hitler. He's just a dude that coaches college hoops.

Example:
-Hanging around with Hilter = probably not a good judge of character
-Hanging around with TC = ?? I'm just not sure it's a slam dunk that I have bad judgment if I'm friends with TC. I just can't make that jump, guys. That's where I'm getting stuck.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Bold that you would go "on the record" that TC isn't perfect. Hope you don't think I'm overly critical saying that neither are the other 3,000,000,000 people on the planet.

Look, here's the thing. It's not the least bit surprising that Doc Rivers, Tony LaRussa, Mike McCarthy, D. Wade,the national media and any number of accomplished, powerful or influential people would speak highly of TC. These are the types that TC courts, and he is both a skilled and persistant suitor. But for me being genuine, thoughtful and human towards only those who can advance your career or feed your ego while you're bullying, berating or ignoring those who can't advance your agenda (secretaries, trainers, team doctors, managers, non-star players, etc) is the textbook definition of a phony. Feel free to disagree, but PLEASE don't give me the BS that all coaches (or some made up number like 90%) are like that. Our present coach is certainly not, nor were Al, Hank, Rick, Dukiet or Deane.

Do you have evidence that he is only genuine, thoughtful and human toward those can advance his career?  That's quite a stretch.  Did folks like Brian Barone advance his career or was Crean advancing Barone's?  An awful lot of coaches pulled up roots at MU to follow him to IU.

Incidentally, the 90% might be high but it isn't off by much.  As someone that has worked with many a head coach in college and pro sports, these guys are hired to be fired so they have to be hard on the people they work with to make sure things get done and goals are achieved.  In my personal experience, that 90% is almost dead on.   

Incidentally, Mike Deane was good to me but he could be very tough on other people.   Almost all these coaches are insecure because of the lives they have to lead and that doesn't always make a terrific mix in the workplace and such.

[ChicosBailBonds]

2002
Here's a question:  why are you so concerned with PRN's opinion?

Back to the topic at hand,  Ooze was a good player, err something like that.

Yes, but our opinions of Oooze should go down considerably because he was working a Crean camp in an obvious effort to help further Crean's career.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Love Barro -- but if you don't think he'll be kicked to the curb as a camp guest/instructor as soon as Crean gets a class through Bloomington (no certainty) you're out of your mind.

[muarmy81]

Yes, but our opinions of Oooze should go down considerably because he was working a Crean camp in an obvious effort to help further Crean's career.

Get a room you two. (Chicos and 2002) 

[Lennys Tap]

Do you have evidence that he is only genuine, thoughtful and human toward those can advance his career?  That's quite a stretch.  Did folks like Brian Barone advance his career or was Crean advancing Barone's?  An awful lot of coaches pulled up roots at MU to follow him to IU.

Incidentally, the 90% might be high but it isn't off by much.  As someone that has worked with many a head coach in college and pro sports, these guys are hired to be fired so they have to be hard on the people they work with to make sure things get done and goals are achieved.  In my personal experience, that 90% is almost dead on.   

Incidentally, Mike Deane was good to me but he could be very tough on other people.   Almost all these coaches are insecure because of the lives they have to lead and that doesn't always make a terrific mix in the workplace and such.

You want evidence? Watch and listen. If you can't see the emperor has no clothes you're not paying attention. You say "an awful lot of coaches pulled up roots at MU to follow him to IU". BS. Their choice was a nice raise at a high profile school (IU)or going back to pounding the pavement.

My experience with coaches is that they're like leaders in all other fields. Some are jerks. Most aren't. To paint any profession with such a broad brush in order to excuse boorish behavior is nonsense.

[Lennys Tap]

Good points. I think something is being lost in the message board style of communication.

So, your point is that Crean is nice to  people that he needs and a jerk to people he doesn't. Right?

That's not unbelievable. I can't deny that.

But, don't you think the players that see him everyday would see that type of behavior? Wouldn't the managers see that? Why would they say anything nice about him ever if he was as evil as some people portray him? Is he really only bad behind closed doors and the players never see it? I don't think this is believable.

HE'S NOT PERFECT. I'VE NEVER SAID THIS WAS A BOLD STATEMENT. IT'S A STATEMENT OF FACT.

BUT, HE'S ALSO NOT SATAN, AND JUST BECAUSE DOC RIVERS, DWYANE WADE, AL MCGUIRE, AND DIANA JOHNSON FROM OAK CREEK LIKE HIM, DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE BAD JUDGMENT. 

Sometimes he's written about like he's Stalin or Hitler. He's just a dude that coaches college hoops.

Example:
-Hanging around with Hilter = probably not a good judge of character
-Hanging around with TC = ?? I'm just not sure it's a slam dunk that I have bad judgment if I'm friends with TC. I just can't make that jump, guys. That's where I'm getting stuck.

It's funny that you think TC's critics are over the top but you consider it a fair characterization that they write about him as if he were Hitler or Stalin.

It's a free country. By all means befriend whomever you wish. Maybe I'm totally off base in my analysis of TC. It just seems to me that the more I know about this guy the less I like him.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

It's funny that you think TC's critics are over the top but you consider it a fair characterization that they write about him as if he were Hitler or Stalin.

Well, look at what is written around here. People do treat him like an national enemy.

I mean c'mon. Some of the stuff that gets pinned on TC is over the top, and then a few of us here end up looking like apologists because we won't jump on him at every opportunity.


1 Recent Example:
People actually BLAMED Tom Crean for DWade wearing Indiana shorts.


Did TC send Dwade some shorts? Probably.

Did he force Wade to wear them on TV? Nope.

Does Crean get blamed? Yep.


How does that logic work? It works because Crean is such a villain that they HAVE to blame him for everything.

[Lennys Tap]

Well, look at what is written around here. People do treat him like an national enemy.

I mean c'mon. Some of the stuff that gets pinned on TC is over the top, and then a few of us here end up looking like apologists because we won't jump on him at every opportunity.


1 Recent Example:
People actually BLAMED Tom Crean for DWade wearing Indiana shorts.


Did TC send Dwade some shorts? Probably.

Did he force Wade to wear them on TV? Nope.

Does Crean get blamed? Yep.


How does that logic work? It works because Crean is such a villain that they HAVE to blame him for everything.

Blaming TC for what kind of shorts Wade wears was likely tongue in cheek. But even if it wasn't, do you really think this constitutes an example of critics comparing Crean to Stalin or Hitler?

[Henry Sugar]

Internet rules - first person to bring up Hitler or the Nazi's automatically loses

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Blaming TC for what kind of shorts Wade wears was likely tongue in cheek. But even if it wasn't, do you really think this constitutes an example of critics comparing Crean to Stalin or Hitler?

Not sure about the tongue and cheek part of it... there is a 3 page thread about it. And that's just one recent example. There are more... you've seen them.

Good point about historical figures, though. The Evil Axis might not be the best place to start.

Who is a famous all-time scapegoat that gets blamed for everything? That's probably a more accurate comparison.

I don't want to get political, but how about GW Bush? I'm not a big fan of the guy, but he can't possibly be as bad as some people make him out to be. Anytime something went wrong, people just blamed it on him. (WARNING: DO NOT START A POLITICAL DEBATE)

Ummm... Bill Buckner? He was a good player on that team, and that play ground ball wasn't a "gimmie". But, I think people are over that, aren't they?

How about Custer? I can't remember the exact story, but I thought he was highly regarded and obviously had a large failure when battling the Natives. But, I bet there were some other things that went wrong there too. (please note, I'm not a fan of general custer).

What about Steve Bartman? A lot of people still hate that guy. Sure, he made a mistake. But he was just a fan sitting there. It's not like he made an error or pitched a gopher ball.


I'm just trying to say that some people make TC out to be this villain based upon some rumors from staff that worked for him, some pressers and radio shows that were perceived as disingenuous, and some rumors and hearsay about how he treated somebody's friend who is a doctor, etc.

When I ask for specifics, I get answers like "Open your eyes" or "You can't see it?! just look at how he talks!"

I see a lot of things about the guy... I just don't jump to the conclusions that he's a slimy, used car salesman that gives his kid everything on a silver platter, gets a job for his father in law to do nothing, allegedly donates to the soccer field just to get on tv, sends Wade shorts and makes him wear them on TV, befriended Mike McCarthy just to further his own career, etc. etc. etc.

I can't say that none of those things happened... but I also don't know all of the circumstances and I just can't make some of the jumps you guys can.

Call me skeptical...

[ChicosBailBonds]

You want evidence? Watch and listen. If you can't see the emperor has no clothes you're not paying attention. You say "an awful lot of coaches pulled up roots at MU to follow him to IU". BS. Their choice was a nice raise at a high profile school (IU)or going back to pounding the pavement.

My experience with coaches is that they're like leaders in all other fields. Some are jerks. Most aren't. To paint any profession with such a broad brush in order to excuse boorish behavior is nonsense.

And there's plenty of evidence the other way, too.  It goes both ways.

I'll say it again, I'll take a coach who is a complete prick that doesn't cheat, wins, graduates players, occassionally puts us at the very top (Final Four, etc) vs a really nice guy that doesn't accomplish those things.

Every day of the week and twice on Sundays I want that.

[rugbydrummer]

Internet rules - first person to bring up Hitler or the Nazi's automatically loses

is that the new Godwin's law??