Marquette Point Guards

[augoman]

You're right as to what the poll asked. However, bma stated that Miller, perhaps, was the best pure point guard ever at MU. Couldn't let that go untouched. Miller, Diener, Hutch, fill in the blank, couldn't fill Dean's jockstrap, not even close.

and the best part is, he never stopped grinning!  Man, Dean w/ the dribble, grinning away, the drums pounding, Al pacing, eating clock, eating clock..., wow!  I guess I, too, have a prob w/ BMA's statement.  But, in the poll, it's Miller all the way.

[MUfan12]

With all due respect to Meminger...the poll stated "in the past 20 years."

Has there been any Meminger tributes in recent years? I don't recall a bobblehead. I'd love to see it!

A bumblebee-clad Meminger bobblehead would be outstanding.

[warthog-driver]

Not sure why we limit it to the just the last 20 years. Open up the aperture and it's Meminger by a mile. I would also add Walton and Boylan to the list

[mviale]

Tony Miller breaking down Kentucky - nuf said

[4everwarriors]

A bumblebee-clad Meminger bobblehead would be outstanding.

This upcoming season is the 40th anniversary of the NIT Championship where Meminger was named MVP.

[bma725]

You're right as to what the poll asked. However, bma stated that Miller, perhaps, was the best pure point guard ever at MU. Couldn't let that go untouched. Miller, Diener, Hutch, fill in the blank, couldn't fill Dean's jockstrap, not even close.

Read what I said again.  Meminger was a better player than any of them, but he was not a pure point guard.  He was a scorer that played the point guard position.  True point guards don't lead their team in scoring for two years and attempt more than 400 FG's per season in the non-shot clock era. 

Of all the players mentioned, only Miller was a pure point guard.  The others were all shoot first point guards or short shooting guards that handled the ball a lot.

[4everwarriors]

bm, we still disagree. Meminger was the prototypical point guard who controlled the ball, tempo, passed, scored and defended. He made everyone around him better. Perhaps you're not familiar with his game or have never seen him play. I'll repeat he was Marquette's best point guard ever to this day.

[GGGG]

The poll was who was the best point guard in the last 20 years. Diener could pass, handle the ball and shoot.  He also was good in the clutch and knew how to through the alley oop pass. Miller could not shoot. There is a reason why Diener made the pros and the others did not. He is easily the best.

Making the pros is irrelevent to this discussion.  From the classic, "pure point guard" perspective, Tony Miller was the better choice.  Deiner was all around a better player however.

[ATWizJr]

What about Butch Lee?

[bma725]

bm, we still disagree. Meminger was the prototypical point guard who controlled the ball, tempo, passed, scored and defended. He made everyone around him better. Perhaps you're not familiar with his game or have never seen him play. I'll repeat he was Marquette's best point guard ever to this day.

Prototypical point guards don't score as much as he did and they never lead their team in scoring.  Meminger probably was the best MU guard of that era, but he wasn't a true point guard regardless of what position Al had him playing.

[4everwarriors]

At 6' tall what position would you suggest he play? And I suppose Jeff Sewell or Allie McGuire were then not shooting guards on his teams also? Meminger had the ball in his hands literally 85% of the time when Marquette was on offense. Again I ask you, have you ever seen him play or are you basing your opinion solely on statistics?
Obviously you are a student of basketball recruiting, but your credibility will take take a hit if you hold fast to Meminger not being a point guard.

[Lennys Tap]

Read what I said again.  Meminger was a better player than any of them, but he was not a pure point guard.  He was a scorer that played the point guard position.  True point guards don't lead their team in scoring for two years and attempt more than 400 FG's per season in the non-shot clock era. 

Of all the players mentioned, only Miller was a pure point guard.  The others were all shoot first point guards or short shooting guards that handled the ball a lot.

To set someone apart as special because of their deficiencies ("pure" point is someone who can't shoot or score) seems odd to me. I would prefer someone at the point who can do it all (Chris Paul?). Who does Tony Miller beat out to be the best pure point in MU history and why is being "pure" (i.e. limited) a good thing?

[bma725]

At 6' tall what position would you suggest he play? And I suppose Jeff Sewell or Allie McGuire were then not shooting guards on his teams also? Meminger had the ball in his hands literally 85% of the time when Marquette was on offense. Again I ask you, have you ever seen him play or are you basing your opinion solely on statistics?
Obviously you are a student of basketball recruiting, but your credibility will take take a hit if you hold fast to Meminger not being a point guard.

I've seen him play on tape, not live.

Lazar played the center position some times last season.  That doesn't make him a center.  Meminger played the point guard position but that doesn't make him a true point guard.  Scoring point? Sure.  Shoot first point? Definitely.  Prototypical point guard as you called him? No. 

[PJDunn]

If we extend this discussion all the way back to the Al era then Mandy Johnson needs to be added to the equation.  I would put him behind Miller as a true point guard but ahead of Diener, Hutch, and James.  I am a bit biased since I lived in the mecca during that time period.

[bma725]

To set someone apart as special because of their deficiencies ("pure" point is someone who can't shoot or score) seems odd to me. I would prefer someone at the point who can do it all (Chris Paul?). Who does Tony Miller beat out to be the best pure point in MU history and why is being "pure" (i.e. limited) a good thing?

Pure doesn't mean limited, you just interepret it that way.  Pure point guard simply means someone that looks for their own scoring opportunities last, and someone who is more concerned with getting their teammates involved that scoring on their own.  When called upon to score, they can(just like TM could), but them scoring on their own is at best the 5th option and for the most part shouldn't even be necessary if the team around is talented enough.

That's incredibly rare, especially in modern basketball.  Miller is the only one of those at MU in recent memory, probably Mandy Johnson before him.

Having a pure point guard allows you to maximize the talents of the other players on the court, simple as that.  When you get a point guard that's looking for his own shot before others, or a point guard that isn't a distributor, you aren't using the other four players to their fullest potential.  

[BrewCity83]

A bumblebee-clad Meminger bobblehead would be outstanding.

+70.  With that big smile.

[THEGYMBAR]

Dean was a point all the way and probably our best. I know I am in the minority but I think Miller was highly overrated. That said, beating Kentucky moves him up the list for me. Lloyd Walton was a pretty darn good PG and was fun to watch, from being introduced to his spats with Al.


Just curious---who does everyone think was the worst?

[MR.HAYWARD]

have to absolutely disagree with you BMA.  

I great point guard is not always the 5th best option to score and a great point guard is great beacuse he makes his team better ...by yes in many cases looking to facilitate the offense through the pass or dribble penetration and the dish...but first and foremost he is able to determine what is the best way for his team to score a basket during that particular possesion.  It appears that you assume a great point guard is a bad shooter or scorer and then must have double digit assists becuase him shooting it is always the 5th best option.  

You are wrong.  Great scoring point guards like Dream, Hutch, and Diener...and even Wade when he palyed the point are not always the 5th best scoring option  and if they are smart realize that in certain cases they are the best option to score.  In fact in Dieners last year or two he was the best player on the court for MU, is it really in MU's best interest to have you best player and your future NBA player to be considered or to consider himself the 5th best option?  he still managed to become the #2 all time assit guy at MU.  

Another perfect example would be Scott Skiles scored over 2400 points at MSU, led the country in scoring becuase he could flat out score it.  Still wound up #1 all time in assists at MSU and holds the NBA record for assists in a game.  So becuase he scored is he a shooting guard in a PG's body, cause Diner and Skiles could drop a dime in a flash if it was there but also could score when it was in their teams best interests.

[GGGG]

Just curious---who does everyone think was the worst?

Of the bunch mentioned in the poll?  Cordell Henry.

[4everwarriors]

Marquette has had a long history of outstanding point guard play. Marcus Washington, while the '74 team got to the championship game, never impressed me as being more than average at that position.

[bma725]

have to absolutely disagree with you BMA.  

I great point guard is not always the 5th best option to score and a great point guard is great beacuse he makes his team better ...by yes in many cases looking to facilitate the offense through the pass or dribble penetration and the dish...but first and foremost he is able to determine what is the best way for his team to score a basket during that particular possesion.  It appears that you assume a great point guard is a bad shooter or scorer and then must have double digit assists becuase him shooting it is always the 5th best option.  

You are wrong.  Great scoring point guards like Dream, Hutch, and Diener...and even Wade when he palyed the point are not always the 5th best scoring option  and if they are smart realize that in certain cases they are the best option to score.  In fact in Dieners last year or two he was the best player on the court for MU, is it really in MU's best interest to have you best player and your future NBA player to be considered or to consider himself the 5th best option?  he still managed to become the #2 all time assit guy at MU.  

Another perfect example would be Scott Skiles scored over 2400 points at MSU, led the country in scoring becuase he could flat out score it.  Still wound up #1 all time in assists at MSU and holds the NBA record for assists in a game.  So becuase he scored is he a shooting guard in a PG's body, cause Diner and Skiles could drop a dime in a flash if it was there but also could score when it was in their teams best interests.

Re-read what I said.  I said Pure point guards looked for their own scoring last, not great point point guards.  There's a very large difference in those words that none of you seem to grasp. 

Being the best pure point guard and being the best point guard aren't necessarily the same thing.

[4everwarriors]

Pure or contaminated, it doesn't matter. Hay is correct. A point guard makes his teammates better be it with the dribble, dishing, scoring or any combination of these attributes.

[MR.HAYWARD]

so then is the poll really " good point guards that could not shoot"  in that case Deiner should come in last.

Maybe the next poll should be "good centers that could not dunk"...i nominate Barro, Grimm, Clausen, others?

[BrewCity83]

Maybe the next poll should be "good centers that could not dunk"...i nominate Barro, Grimm, Clausen, others?

I'm not sure what criteria would have to be used in order to classify Grimm and Clausen as "good" centers. 

[Lennys Tap]

Re-read what I said.  I said Pure point guards looked for their own scoring last, not great point point guards.  There's a very large difference in those words that none of you seem to grasp. 

Being the best pure point guard and being the best point guard aren't necessarily the same thing.

Again, if Miller could have shot it like Diener or Hutch he would have. If he had the midrange game or the ability to finish of a Memminger or a Worthen he would have used it. He couldn't and he didn't. If lacking these skills makes him by necessity a more "pure" point guard for you so be it. To me it just makes him a more limited one.