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Author Topic: MLB All-Star Game  (Read 16609 times)

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2009, 12:38:42 PM »
You didn't bring up Braun, you just left him off the list.  And I am really confused on when you say you voted for him, but yet you left him off your list of who should start.  So then you vote differently than you talk?  Confused.

I'm going off of sheer numbers who should start, compared to who has been voted.

I'm not making this into a pissing match.

Hards Alumni

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2009, 12:39:27 PM »
Braun would be forth.

I think if we are talking OF, which should be faster players, SB definitely has to be taken into consideration. All the stats are valued the same, do you disagree with looking at SB?

I agree with you on OPS. Fantasy could make the point that it's account for in the individual stats, but I agree.

Plenty of fat/slow guys are better base stealers than slim/fast guys.

NavinRJohnson

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2009, 12:43:05 PM »
I knew. KNEW that the sheer ignorance, jealously & crybaby attitude of the Brewer fans would poke through in this thread. Try putting it aside and have a logical baseball discussion. Please.

Dude, what the hell are you talking about?!

I don't know if you noticed, but I didn't bring up Braun. I think Braun should be in the game.

Personally, I feel the lineups should look something more like this.
NL: Gonzalez, Utley, Reynolds, Ramirez, McCann, Ibanez, Kemp & Beltran.

Apparently you just misspelled Braun.


The fan input becomes even more pathetic when teams drape their stadium with banners and announce that the fans need to go vote. This isn't the high school prom, it's the MLB All-Star Game. I don't want some 17 year old girl voting for JJ Hardy because he's cute. It's just stupid.

Gee, which team might you be referring to there?

Braun on the other hand, statistically isn't even a top 10 OF in the league right now.

I'll ask again, do you even pay attention to what you write from one post to the next? Short-term memory issues? What? Those are things you said, not something a Brewer fan said. For instance, here's what I said...

I would have a hard time trying to discredit your line ups, but when you talk about the other guys it is really an exercise of splitting hairs. You could replace a couple names (Pujols, Braun, etc.) and I could pretty easily defend that as well.

Boy, can you hear the ignorance and jealousy coming through in that highly controversial response? Of course, you responded...

Braun on the other hand, statistically isn't even a top 10 OF in the league right now.

Nah, you didn't bring up Braun (psst...even though you really did in your very first post saying he would start even though you didn't think he should, but I won't point that out and embarass you any more than you already have.). But you're just trying to have a logical baseball discussion.  Problem is, when you say something stupid and someone calls you on it, then that person is simply a jealous, ignorant crybaby Brewer fan. Has nothing to do with the fact that you're just wrong.

As soon as you can put aside the anti-Brewer bias, and figure out what your positions actually are, come on back and maybe we can have that logical baseball discussion.

NavinRJohnson

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2009, 12:47:57 PM »
I'm going off of sheer numbers who should start, compared to who has been voted.

So what you're saying is you yourself voted for Braun because you don't think he should start. That makes sense.


copious1218

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2009, 12:54:51 PM »
Disclaimer:  I'm a cubs fan

And no, no Cubs player deserves to be voted into the all-star game this year.

I think the original poster's point was people vote for names of players or teams and do not vote for who deserves it.  Putting Braun aside, can Brewers fans make a legitimate argument for why Bill Hall and Jason Kendall are in 2nd or 3rd in voting at their respective position right now? 

(I'm not just attacking the Brewers or their fans, I only use them as an example because they are high in voting at every position)

Mayor McCheese

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2009, 12:57:06 PM »
Disclaimer:  I'm a cubs fan

And no, no Cubs player deserves to be voted into the all-star game this year.

I think the original poster's point was people vote for names of players or teams and do not vote for who deserves it.  Putting Braun aside, can Brewers fans make a legitimate argument for why Bill Hall and Jason Kendall are in 2nd or 3rd in voting at their respective position right now? 

(I'm not just attacking the Brewers or their fans, I only use them as an example because they are high in voting at every position)

Bill Hall looks like Don Cheadle... and hes a hell of an actor.  Theres my reason.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/NCAA/dayone&sportCat=ncb

pure genius stuff by Bill Simmons, remember to read day 2

NavinRJohnson

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2009, 01:03:36 PM »
I think the original poster's point was people vote for names of players or teams and do not vote for who deserves it.  Putting Braun aside, can Brewers fans make a legitimate argument for why Bill Hall and Jason Kendall are in 2nd or 3rd in voting at their respective position right now? 

Because their fans are voting for them. That's the way the system is set up, and the Brewers have done a better job than other teams in getting votes for their players. In the end neither one is gonna get anywhere near the All Star Game, so who cares? As you mention, it happens every year with different players/teams. So the fans get to see the players they want to see in the All Star Game. Is that really such a bad thing?

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2009, 01:09:35 PM »
This is hilarious. I except nothing less of you Navin.

When I posted, I was looking at the lineups merely as an indication by statistics. Let me say that again, I feel that the lineup I posted should be trotted out there based off of STATISTICS only. I started this thread to be a discussion of fan voting at the lack of the statistical leaders being voted. Let that sink in.

Now I feel that Ryan Braun is better player than Justin Upton, hence why I would ACTUALLY vote for Ryan Braun. I'm not digging a hole here, I'm merely trying to distinguish that I am not coming after Ryan Braun. Nor should this discussion be about Ryan Braun, not matter how much you and the rest of the Brewer Savants try to make it out to be.


Gee, which team might you be referring to there?


In the past week, I've seen visible advertisements during games from: Brewers, Reds, Tigers, White Sox, Nationals, Houston & the Diamondbacks.

Don't worry, not everyone is trying to attack the Brewers, you can put your message board turret away.


Nah, you didn't bring up Braun (psst...even though you really did in your very first post saying he would start even though you didn't think he should, but I won't point that out and embarass you any more than you already have.). But you're just trying to have a logical baseball discussion.  Problem is, when you say something stupid and someone calls you on it, then that person is simply a jealous, ignorant crybaby Brewer fan. Has nothing to do with the fact that you're just wrong.


I didn't bring up Braun in my first post, so that means I really did bring up Braun? Seriously? You are that insecure about the Brewers that because Braun isn't listed as a Top 3 statistical leader for NL outfielders that I brought up Braun without bringing him up? You need to work on these delusions that you are experiencing. Haha, I didn't talk about Braun, so I brought him up without mentioning him, I love it.

I think you should spend more time comparing the players ahead of Braun instead of insecurely trying to fend off my logic of having two different lineups.

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2009, 01:10:01 PM »
Bill Hall looks like Don Cheadle... and hes a hell of an actor.  Theres my reason.

Agreed!

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2009, 01:12:22 PM »
Because their fans are voting for them. That's the way the system is set up, and the Brewers have done a better job than other teams in getting votes for their players. In the end neither one is gonna get anywhere near the All Star Game, so who cares? As you mention, it happens every year with different players/teams. So the fans get to see the players they want to see in the All Star Game. Is that really such a bad thing?

I think it's bad because we aren't seeing the best players from both leagues. Instead we get to see players that were good, and maybe just playing average.

It especially pisses me off because it actually 'counts'. If the Brewers make the World Series, had 105 wins, but didn't have home field advantage because the team wasn't the best, wouldn't you think about it more?

GGGG

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2009, 01:22:23 PM »
Braun and Cruz have nearly identical numbers, +/- a few. Braun has a better average. Cruz steals more bags. Cruz is playing his first full season.


The last sentence is the crucial one.  Cruz could simply be a Corey Hart like player who is decent, but playing very well at the beginning of the year.

NavinRJohnson

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2009, 01:27:56 PM »
It especially pisses me off because it actually 'counts'. If the Brewers make the World Series, had 105 wins, but didn't have home field advantage because the team wasn't the best, wouldn't you think about it more?

Not in the least...it is no more random than simply alternating years as they did prior to the current arrangement. Much more ado about nothing for the simple fact that Selig was the one who implemented it.

Those 105 wins mean nothing and never have where home field is concerned.

copious1218

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2009, 01:29:04 PM »

The last sentence is the crucial one.  Cruz could simply be a Corey Hart like player who is decent, but playing very well at the beginning of the year.

And Hart made the all-star game last year, so why shouldn't Cruz get rewarded for having superior statistics this year, whether he tapers off at the end of the year or not a la Corey Hart?

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2009, 01:36:13 PM »
And Hart made the all-star game last year, so why shouldn't Cruz get rewarded for having superior statistics this year, whether he tapers off at the end of the year or not a la Corey Hart?

Corey Hart was voted in on that 'Final Vote' due to the Sunglasses at Night promotion.

Chili

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2009, 02:12:59 PM »
Braun would be forth.

I think if we are talking OF, which should be faster players, SB definitely has to be taken into consideration. All the stats are valued the same, do you disagree with looking at SB?

I agree with you on OPS. Fantasy could make the point that it's account for in the individual stats, but I agree.

Basing Rankings on Runs, HR's, RBI, SB & Ave is not good indicator of who is the best playe. It is based on a 5x5 league - which is not really how baseball is played.
But I like to throw handfuls...

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2009, 02:21:54 PM »
Basing Rankings on Runs, HR's, RBI, SB & Ave is not good indicator of who is the best playe. It is based on a 5x5 league - which is not really how baseball is played.

If the basic five statistical categories isn't enough, what is? I'd agree OBP > AVG. Runs and RBIs are a team dependent statistic.

GGGG

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2009, 02:22:17 PM »
And Hart made the all-star game last year, so why shouldn't Cruz get rewarded for having superior statistics this year, whether he tapers off at the end of the year or not a la Corey Hart?


Because I don't think the purpose of the All-Star game should be to reward players who have had one good half-season.

MU B2002

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2009, 02:26:23 PM »

Because I don't think the purpose of the All-Star game should be to reward players who have had one good half-season.

Then they should have the all-star game after the season. And go back to alternating home teams for the series.  I mean who wouldn't want to go to a meaningless baseball game in November.
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copious1218

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2009, 02:29:50 PM »

Because I don't think the purpose of the All-Star game should be to reward players who have had one good half-season.

So by default, a rookie can never be in the all-star game?  He would only have one good half-season to base his career on

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2009, 02:47:06 PM »
So by default, a rookie can never be in the all-star game?  He would only have one good half-season to base his career on

Of course, this logic would be different if Ryan Braun played those extra 35 games before being called up his rookie season.

MU B2002

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2009, 02:57:29 PM »
And on a related note.... Nelson Cruz has played in 176 major league games prior to this season. Is he considered a rookie?
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GGGG

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2009, 03:03:21 PM »
So by default, a rookie can never be in the all-star game?  He would only have one good half-season to base his career on


Yep.  As I said earlier in the thread, the All-Star game should be more than just the first half-season.  It should be about recent success over the past couple of seasons.

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2009, 03:04:08 PM »
If the basic five statistical categories isn't enough, what is? I'd agree OBP > AVG. Runs and RBIs are a team dependent statistic.

OBP and AVE are more important than SB. SB is a meaningless stat.
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copious1218

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2009, 03:07:36 PM »

Yep.  As I said earlier in the thread, the All-Star game should be more than just the first half-season.  It should be about recent success over the past couple of seasons.

How many seasons is enough then?  Can a second-year player be voted in if he had a good rookie year?  What if a second-year player only had a good second half last year and a good first half this year?  Is that enough? 

Example (realizing you will probably discount my opinion because I am a Cubs fan, but): Geovany Soto was the best catcher in the NL last year.  Using your logic, he should have been ineligible for the 2008 all-star game because he hadn't done it for a long enough time?

copious1218

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Re: MLB All-Star Game
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2009, 03:14:04 PM »
And on a related note.... Nelson Cruz has played in 176 major league games prior to this season. Is he considered a rookie?

No. Of course not.  I'm not trying to say Cruz should/shouldn't be in the all-star game.  I'm just saying, in my opinion, the all-star game should be a conglomeration of the best talent of that season.  I do not believe you have to be good for 2 or 3 or 4 years before you can be an all-star.  (Although I do enjoy icons of the game being voted in even if they are having a down year a la Cal Ripken, Jr. a couple years ago).