MLB All-Star Game

[🏀]

I'll admit that I do enjoy watching the All-Star games from every sport. I'll watch the basketball version & the Pro Bowl for at least a half. However, there's something about the MLB All-Star Game that I generally will watch the entire thing. However, this voting process just pisses me off. Two weeks ago, the voting was looking like either a Brewer or a Cardinal at every position. I'm sure every Brewer and Cardinal fan out there will agree it's not the best field to be teaming.

The voting process puts the power to fans to vote their favorite players. But this isn't to honor the 'favorite' players, it should be the best players from the end of April to early July. Not everyone knows the MONSTER seasons that players like Adam Lind, Nelson Cruz & Adrian Gonzalez are having. And they should be in the game.

Right now, the lineups are looking like:

AL: Youkilis, Kinsler, Longoria, Jeter, Mauer, Bay, Hamilton & Suzuki.
NL: Pujols, Utley, Wright, Rollins, Molina, Ibanez, Braun & Beltran.

Every single player is/has become a household name. Personally, I feel the lineups should look something more like this based off of the first season statistics.

AL: Morneau, Kinsler, Longoria, Barlett/Zorbist, Mauer, Crawford, Cruz, & Bay.
NL: Gonzalez, Utley, Reynolds, Ramirez, McCann, Ibanez, Kemp & Beltran.


Putting your favorite team aside, what do your All-Star Game lineups look like?

[MU B2002]

I agree that the MLB voting process is flawed, but doesn't someone else control the sub players? (Coaches, players, etc.) I can't remember.

I would switch Either for Kemp, as he has been killing it lately.  (but that is a homer move.)  I don't think I watch enough other teams play to make informed decisions on the rest of the guys.  i would enjoy seeing Cruz make it, as I saw him play quite a bit for AAA Nashville.



Also just curious.... are you a Rays fan?

[Hards Alumni]

Pujols belongs at first, and I hate the Cardinals.

he has had a short slump but beyond that he has had a great year while playing with mostly rookies around him... i.e. no protection.

[🏀]

I agree that the MLB voting process is flawed, but doesn't someone else control the sub players? (Coaches, players, etc.) I can't remember.

I would switch Either for Kemp, as he has been killing it lately.  (but that is a homer move.)  I don't think I watch enough other teams play to make informed decisions on the rest of the guys.  i would enjoy seeing Cruz make it, as I saw him play quite a bit for AAA Nashville.



Also just curious.... are you a Rays fan?

No, Cubs fan. Purely statistical analysis.

Hards, how can you say Pujols has had nothing, when Gonzalez LITERALLY has nothing.

[Hards Alumni]

Because Pujols is ahead of Gonzo in every major batting catagorey except Home Runs?

[NavinRJohnson]

I would have a hard time trying to discredit your line ups, but when you talk about the other guys it is really an exercise of splitting hairs. You could replace a couple names (Pujols, Braun, etc.) and I could pretty easily defend that as well. In many respects, that is why I like the system of fan input. Yeah, sometime guys who don't belong end up starting, but who really cares?

[🏀]

I would have a hard time trying to discredit your line ups, but when you talk about the other guys it is really an exercise of splitting hairs. You could replace a couple names (Pujols, Braun, etc.) and I could pretty easily defend that as well. In many respects, that is why I like the system of fan input. Yeah, sometime guys who don't belong end up starting, but who really cares?

I think I made it clear that the deserving players should be there. The fan input becomes even more pathetic when teams drape their stadium with banners and announce that the fans need to go vote. This isn't the high school prom, it's the MLB All-Star Game. I don't want some 17 year old girl voting for JJ Hardy because he's cute. It's just stupid.

Hards, put Gonzo in a Pujols lineup and the runs, OBP & RBIs would be identical.

Braun on the other hand, statistically isn't even a top 10 OF in the league right now.

[GGGG]

The voting process puts the power to fans to vote their favorite players. But this isn't to honor the 'favorite' players, it should be the best players from the end of April to early July. Not everyone knows the MONSTER seasons that players like Adam Lind, Nelson Cruz & Adrian Gonzalez are having. And they should be in the game.

While I generally agree that fan voting has gotten to become just a glorified beauty contest, I don't think that the All-Star game should be filled with guys who are hot for the first (and least) important half of the season.  I think the players that should be there are those who have proven it over the past couple of seasons.  To me, it is more of a joke to have people like Corey Hart and Scott Podsednik in there who just happened to have apparent statistical anomolies, than the fan voting.

So IOW, I don't think Nelson Cruz should be there until he shows he is one of the better players in the game for longer than a few months.

[Chili]

I think I made it clear that the deserving players should be there. The fan input becomes even more pathetic when teams drape their stadium with banners and announce that the fans need to go vote. This isn't the high school prom, it's the MLB All-Star Game. I don't want some 17 year old girl voting for JJ Hardy because he's cute. It's just stupid.

Hards, put Gonzo in a Pujols lineup and the runs, OBP & RBIs would be identical.

Braun on the other hand, statistically isn't even a top 10 OF in the league right now.

Wrong!

Braun (amongst NL OF):
2nd in Runs
7th in Hits
5th in HR
4th in RBI
4th in OPS

How is that not top 10?

[NavinRJohnson]

I think I made it clear that the deserving players should be there. The fan input becomes even more pathetic when teams drape their stadium with banners and announce that the fans need to go vote. This isn't the high school prom, it's the MLB All-Star Game. I don't want some 17 year old girl voting for JJ Hardy because he's cute. It's just stupid.

Hards, put Gonzo in a Pujols lineup and the runs, OBP & RBIs would be identical.

Braun on the other hand, statistically isn't even a top 10 OF in the league right now.

Sigh...Can I suggest you move this post to the pissing match, because its pretty obvious where you're coming from with those comments.

Braun not a Top 10 OF?

BA - 8th
OBP - 4th
SLG - 5th
OPS - 4th
HR - 5th
RBI - 4th

He's even 7th in Hits and 2nd in runs scored with a .990 Fielding Percentage. You're right, not even in the top 10. Do you listen yo yourself Cub Boy?

[Hards Alumni]

time to eat crow ptm.

Pujols is better than A-Gon... have you even looked at who the Cards have been putting around Pujols?

[🏀]

Statically, the outfielders rank as:

Crawford
Ibanez
Hunter
Cruz
Bay
Jones
Upton
Kemp
Damon
Beltran
Braun

These are ESPN's rankings. Not mine. I could make a case for Braun and against Braun for a lot of the players.

[Robyrd5]

I agree that the All-Star game is a popularity contest and sometimes deserving players aren't voted in. But I'm also not sure how I feel about the game determining home field advantage in the WS. Thoughts on that?

[BrewCity83]

Statically, the outfielders rank as:

Crawford
Ibanez
Hunter
Cruz
Bay
Jones
Upton
Kemp
Damon
Beltran
Braun

These are ESPN's rankings. Not mine. I could make a case for Braun and against Braun for a lot of the players.

That's both leagues...where does Braun stand among the NL'ers? (I can't identify a couple of these names...)

[Chili]

Statically, the outfielders rank as:

Crawford
Ibanez
Hunter
Cruz
Bay
Jones
Upton
Kemp
Damon
Beltran
Braun

These are ESPN's rankings. Not mine. I could make a case for Braun and against Braun for a lot of the players.

Those are fantasy rankings. You actually used their fantasy player rater as good statical model for a player? Really? That is like saying USAToday is best newspaper. Wow is that dumb to even bring into a discussion. That is as bad as Ari Gold talking about Hard Cider in a beer thread.

[GGGG]

Statically, the outfielders rank as:

Crawford
Ibanez
Hunter
Cruz
Bay
Jones
Upton
Kemp
Damon
Beltran
Braun

These are ESPN's rankings. Not mine. I could make a case for Braun and against Braun for a lot of the players.

Nelson Cruz?  C'mon...

[DJO's Pump Fake]

I am just so happy it has gotten to the point where cubby fans are complaining about brewer all-star selections......how sweet is that!

Choke cubs choke!

[NavinRJohnson]

I am just so happy it has gotten to the point where cubby fans are complaining about brewer all-star selections.

Agreed. Trying to argue Ryan Braun out of the All Star game was clearly the motivation of the initial post, but repackaged to try to create the illusion of objectivity.

Ryan Braun not a Top 10 OF in the league. Yeah, ok!

So the fans should not have input, but fantasy rankings are a legitimate criteria. Yeah, I guess that works.

Sorry to hear you don't think Braun belongs ptm. I can't imagine how you are going to react when Prince Fielder, Trevor Hoffman, Yovanni Gallardo, and possibly Mike Cameron make it also.

[Mayor McCheese]

I think I made it clear that the deserving players should be there. The fan input becomes even more pathetic when teams drape their stadium with banners and announce that the fans need to go vote. This isn't the high school prom, it's the MLB All-Star Game. I don't want some 17 year old girl voting for JJ Hardy because he's cute. It's just stupid.

Hards, put Gonzo in a Pujols lineup and the runs, OBP & RBIs would be identical.

Braun on the other hand, statistically isn't even a top 10 OF in the league right now.

Its the All-Star game... let the fans have their fun, it is what the game is for.  An All-Star game and the Prom are pretty similar in what it's worth.

And your answer.... but the world series depends on this game... thats the real joke of the whole hoopla around this game.  Why does it even matter?

[BrewCity83]

An All-Star game and the Prom are pretty similar in what it's worth.

If it's like the Prom, I gotta find a way in to the Post-Game party...

[🏀]

Agreed. Trying to argue Ryan Braun out of the All Star game was clearly the motivation of the initial post, but repackaged to try to create the illusion of objectivity.

Ryan Braun not a Top 10 OF in the league. Yeah, ok!

So the fans should not have input, but fantasy rankings are a legitimate criteria. Yeah, I guess that works.

Sorry to hear you don't think Braun belongs ptm. I can't imagine how you are going to react when Prince Fielder, Trevor Hoffman, Yovanni Gallardo, and possibly Mike Cameron make it also.

I don't know if you noticed, but I didn't bring up Braun. I think Braun should be in the game. I've voted for Braun for the All-Star Game. That being said, is it possible to have a legitmate debate about other players with Brewer Fans? Of course not. The same run around.

I do think Yovanni and Hoffman are also locks. I think if Prince makes it, Gonzo and Pujols better be there as well.

Can you tell me how Fantasy Rankings aren't a good judge of a player? Why shouldn't we be looking at an aggregate of H, R, HR, RBI, SB & AVG when evaluating an offensive player? Who on that list is Braun better than right now?

I knew. KNEW that the sheer ignorance, jealously & crybaby attitude of the Brewer fans would poke through in this thread. Try putting it aside and have a logical baseball discussion. Please.

[🏀]

Nelson Cruz?  C'mon...

Braun and Cruz have nearly identical numbers, +/- a few. Braun has a better average. Cruz steals more bags. Cruz is playing his first full season.

[Chili]

I don't know if you noticed, but I didn't bring up Braun. I think Braun should be in the game. I've voted for Braun for the All-Star Game. That being said, is it possible to have a legitmate debate about other players with Brewer Fans? Of course not. The same run around.

I do think Yovanni and Hoffman are also locks. I think if Prince makes it, Gonzo and Pujols better be there as well.

Can you tell me how Fantasy Rankings aren't a good judge of a player? Why shouldn't we be looking at an aggregate of H, R, HR, RBI, SB & AVG when evaluating an offensive player? Who on that list is Braun better than right now?

I knew. KNEW that the sheer ignorance, jealously & crybaby attitude of the Brewer fans would poke through in this thread. Try putting it aside and have a logical baseball discussion. Please.

Fantasy rankings overvalue certain statistics like SB. They also do not take into account OPS - at all!

[🏀]

That's both leagues...where does Braun stand among the NL'ers? (I can't identify a couple of these names...)

Braun would be forth.

Fantasy rankings overvalue certain statistics like SB. They also do not take into account OPS - at all!

I think if we are talking OF, which should be faster players, SB definitely has to be taken into consideration. All the stats are valued the same, do you disagree with looking at SB?

I agree with you on OPS. Fantasy could make the point that it's account for in the individual stats, but I agree.

[Mayor McCheese]

I don't know if you noticed, but I didn't bring up Braun. I think Braun should be in the game. I've voted for Braun for the All-Star Game. That being said, is it possible to have a legitmate debate about other players with Brewer Fans? Of course not. The same run around.

I do think Yovanni and Hoffman are also locks. I think if Prince makes it, Gonzo and Pujols better be there as well.

Can you tell me how Fantasy Rankings aren't a good judge of a player? Why shouldn't we be looking at an aggregate of H, R, HR, RBI, SB & AVG when evaluating an offensive player? Who on that list is Braun better than right now?

I knew. KNEW that the sheer ignorance, jealously & crybaby attitude of the Brewer fans would poke through in this thread. Try putting it aside and have a logical baseball discussion. Please.

You didn't bring up Braun, you just left him off the list.  And I am really confused on when you say you voted for him, but yet you left him off your list of who should start.  So then you vote differently than you talk?  Confused.

[🏀]

You didn't bring up Braun, you just left him off the list.  And I am really confused on when you say you voted for him, but yet you left him off your list of who should start.  So then you vote differently than you talk?  Confused.

I'm going off of sheer numbers who should start, compared to who has been voted.

I'm not making this into a pissing match.

[Hards Alumni]

Braun would be forth.

I think if we are talking OF, which should be faster players, SB definitely has to be taken into consideration. All the stats are valued the same, do you disagree with looking at SB?

I agree with you on OPS. Fantasy could make the point that it's account for in the individual stats, but I agree.

Plenty of fat/slow guys are better base stealers than slim/fast guys.

[NavinRJohnson]

I knew. KNEW that the sheer ignorance, jealously & crybaby attitude of the Brewer fans would poke through in this thread. Try putting it aside and have a logical baseball discussion. Please.

Dude, what the hell are you talking about?!

I don't know if you noticed, but I didn't bring up Braun. I think Braun should be in the game.

Personally, I feel the lineups should look something more like this.
NL: Gonzalez, Utley, Reynolds, Ramirez, McCann, Ibanez, Kemp & Beltran.

Apparently you just misspelled Braun.

The fan input becomes even more pathetic when teams drape their stadium with banners and announce that the fans need to go vote. This isn't the high school prom, it's the MLB All-Star Game. I don't want some 17 year old girl voting for JJ Hardy because he's cute. It's just stupid.

Gee, which team might you be referring to there?

Braun on the other hand, statistically isn't even a top 10 OF in the league right now.

I'll ask again, do you even pay attention to what you write from one post to the next? Short-term memory issues? What? Those are things you said, not something a Brewer fan said. For instance, here's what I said...

I would have a hard time trying to discredit your line ups, but when you talk about the other guys it is really an exercise of splitting hairs. You could replace a couple names (Pujols, Braun, etc.) and I could pretty easily defend that as well.

Boy, can you hear the ignorance and jealousy coming through in that highly controversial response? Of course, you responded...

Braun on the other hand, statistically isn't even a top 10 OF in the league right now.

Nah, you didn't bring up Braun (psst...even though you really did in your very first post saying he would start even though you didn't think he should, but I won't point that out and embarass you any more than you already have.). But you're just trying to have a logical baseball discussion.  Problem is, when you say something stupid and someone calls you on it, then that person is simply a jealous, ignorant crybaby Brewer fan. Has nothing to do with the fact that you're just wrong.

As soon as you can put aside the anti-Brewer bias, and figure out what your positions actually are, come on back and maybe we can have that logical baseball discussion.

[NavinRJohnson]

I'm going off of sheer numbers who should start, compared to who has been voted.

So what you're saying is you yourself voted for Braun because you don't think he should start. That makes sense.

[copious1218]

Disclaimer:  I'm a cubs fan

And no, no Cubs player deserves to be voted into the all-star game this year.

I think the original poster's point was people vote for names of players or teams and do not vote for who deserves it.  Putting Braun aside, can Brewers fans make a legitimate argument for why Bill Hall and Jason Kendall are in 2nd or 3rd in voting at their respective position right now? 

(I'm not just attacking the Brewers or their fans, I only use them as an example because they are high in voting at every position)

[Mayor McCheese]

Disclaimer:  I'm a cubs fan

And no, no Cubs player deserves to be voted into the all-star game this year.

I think the original poster's point was people vote for names of players or teams and do not vote for who deserves it.  Putting Braun aside, can Brewers fans make a legitimate argument for why Bill Hall and Jason Kendall are in 2nd or 3rd in voting at their respective position right now? 

(I'm not just attacking the Brewers or their fans, I only use them as an example because they are high in voting at every position)

Bill Hall looks like Don Cheadle... and hes a hell of an actor.  Theres my reason.

[NavinRJohnson]

I think the original poster's point was people vote for names of players or teams and do not vote for who deserves it.  Putting Braun aside, can Brewers fans make a legitimate argument for why Bill Hall and Jason Kendall are in 2nd or 3rd in voting at their respective position right now? 

Because their fans are voting for them. That's the way the system is set up, and the Brewers have done a better job than other teams in getting votes for their players. In the end neither one is gonna get anywhere near the All Star Game, so who cares? As you mention, it happens every year with different players/teams. So the fans get to see the players they want to see in the All Star Game. Is that really such a bad thing?

[🏀]

This is hilarious. I except nothing less of you Navin.

When I posted, I was looking at the lineups merely as an indication by statistics. Let me say that again, I feel that the lineup I posted should be trotted out there based off of STATISTICS only. I started this thread to be a discussion of fan voting at the lack of the statistical leaders being voted. Let that sink in.

Now I feel that Ryan Braun is better player than Justin Upton, hence why I would ACTUALLY vote for Ryan Braun. I'm not digging a hole here, I'm merely trying to distinguish that I am not coming after Ryan Braun. Nor should this discussion be about Ryan Braun, not matter how much you and the rest of the Brewer Savants try to make it out to be.

Gee, which team might you be referring to there?

In the past week, I've seen visible advertisements during games from: Brewers, Reds, Tigers, White Sox, Nationals, Houston & the Diamondbacks.

Don't worry, not everyone is trying to attack the Brewers, you can put your message board turret away.

Nah, you didn't bring up Braun (psst...even though you really did in your very first post saying he would start even though you didn't think he should, but I won't point that out and embarass you any more than you already have.). But you're just trying to have a logical baseball discussion.  Problem is, when you say something stupid and someone calls you on it, then that person is simply a jealous, ignorant crybaby Brewer fan. Has nothing to do with the fact that you're just wrong.

I didn't bring up Braun in my first post, so that means I really did bring up Braun? Seriously? You are that insecure about the Brewers that because Braun isn't listed as a Top 3 statistical leader for NL outfielders that I brought up Braun without bringing him up? You need to work on these delusions that you are experiencing. Haha, I didn't talk about Braun, so I brought him up without mentioning him, I love it.

I think you should spend more time comparing the players ahead of Braun instead of insecurely trying to fend off my logic of having two different lineups.

[🏀]

Bill Hall looks like Don Cheadle... and hes a hell of an actor.  Theres my reason.

Agreed!

[🏀]

Because their fans are voting for them. That's the way the system is set up, and the Brewers have done a better job than other teams in getting votes for their players. In the end neither one is gonna get anywhere near the All Star Game, so who cares? As you mention, it happens every year with different players/teams. So the fans get to see the players they want to see in the All Star Game. Is that really such a bad thing?

I think it's bad because we aren't seeing the best players from both leagues. Instead we get to see players that were good, and maybe just playing average.

It especially pisses me off because it actually 'counts'. If the Brewers make the World Series, had 105 wins, but didn't have home field advantage because the team wasn't the best, wouldn't you think about it more?

[GGGG]

Braun and Cruz have nearly identical numbers, +/- a few. Braun has a better average. Cruz steals more bags. Cruz is playing his first full season.

The last sentence is the crucial one.  Cruz could simply be a Corey Hart like player who is decent, but playing very well at the beginning of the year.

[NavinRJohnson]

It especially pisses me off because it actually 'counts'. If the Brewers make the World Series, had 105 wins, but didn't have home field advantage because the team wasn't the best, wouldn't you think about it more?

Not in the least...it is no more random than simply alternating years as they did prior to the current arrangement. Much more ado about nothing for the simple fact that Selig was the one who implemented it.

Those 105 wins mean nothing and never have where home field is concerned.

[copious1218]

The last sentence is the crucial one.  Cruz could simply be a Corey Hart like player who is decent, but playing very well at the beginning of the year.

And Hart made the all-star game last year, so why shouldn't Cruz get rewarded for having superior statistics this year, whether he tapers off at the end of the year or not a la Corey Hart?

[🏀]

And Hart made the all-star game last year, so why shouldn't Cruz get rewarded for having superior statistics this year, whether he tapers off at the end of the year or not a la Corey Hart?

Corey Hart was voted in on that 'Final Vote' due to the Sunglasses at Night promotion.

[Chili]

Braun would be forth.

I think if we are talking OF, which should be faster players, SB definitely has to be taken into consideration. All the stats are valued the same, do you disagree with looking at SB?

I agree with you on OPS. Fantasy could make the point that it's account for in the individual stats, but I agree.

Basing Rankings on Runs, HR's, RBI, SB & Ave is not good indicator of who is the best playe. It is based on a 5x5 league - which is not really how baseball is played.

[🏀]

Basing Rankings on Runs, HR's, RBI, SB & Ave is not good indicator of who is the best playe. It is based on a 5x5 league - which is not really how baseball is played.

If the basic five statistical categories isn't enough, what is? I'd agree OBP > AVG. Runs and RBIs are a team dependent statistic.

[GGGG]

And Hart made the all-star game last year, so why shouldn't Cruz get rewarded for having superior statistics this year, whether he tapers off at the end of the year or not a la Corey Hart?

Because I don't think the purpose of the All-Star game should be to reward players who have had one good half-season.

[MU B2002]

Because I don't think the purpose of the All-Star game should be to reward players who have had one good half-season.

Then they should have the all-star game after the season. And go back to alternating home teams for the series.  I mean who wouldn't want to go to a meaningless baseball game in November.

[copious1218]

Because I don't think the purpose of the All-Star game should be to reward players who have had one good half-season.

So by default, a rookie can never be in the all-star game?  He would only have one good half-season to base his career on

[🏀]

So by default, a rookie can never be in the all-star game?  He would only have one good half-season to base his career on

Of course, this logic would be different if Ryan Braun played those extra 35 games before being called up his rookie season.

[MU B2002]

And on a related note.... Nelson Cruz has played in 176 major league games prior to this season. Is he considered a rookie?

[GGGG]

So by default, a rookie can never be in the all-star game?  He would only have one good half-season to base his career on

Yep.  As I said earlier in the thread, the All-Star game should be more than just the first half-season.  It should be about recent success over the past couple of seasons.

[Chili]

If the basic five statistical categories isn't enough, what is? I'd agree OBP > AVG. Runs and RBIs are a team dependent statistic.

OBP and AVE are more important than SB. SB is a meaningless stat.

[copious1218]

Yep.  As I said earlier in the thread, the All-Star game should be more than just the first half-season.  It should be about recent success over the past couple of seasons.

How many seasons is enough then?  Can a second-year player be voted in if he had a good rookie year?  What if a second-year player only had a good second half last year and a good first half this year?  Is that enough? 

Example (realizing you will probably discount my opinion because I am a Cubs fan, but): Geovany Soto was the best catcher in the NL last year.  Using your logic, he should have been ineligible for the 2008 all-star game because he hadn't done it for a long enough time?

[copious1218]

And on a related note.... Nelson Cruz has played in 176 major league games prior to this season. Is he considered a rookie?

No. Of course not.  I'm not trying to say Cruz should/shouldn't be in the all-star game.  I'm just saying, in my opinion, the all-star game should be a conglomeration of the best talent of that season.  I do not believe you have to be good for 2 or 3 or 4 years before you can be an all-star.  (Although I do enjoy icons of the game being voted in even if they are having a down year a la Cal Ripken, Jr. a couple years ago).

[GGGG]

How many seasons is enough then?  Can a second-year player be voted in if he had a good rookie year?  What if a second-year player only had a good second half last year and a good first half this year?  Is that enough? 

Example (realizing you will probably discount my opinion because I am a Cubs fan, but): Geovany Soto was the best catcher in the NL last year.  Using your logic, he should have been ineligible for the 2008 all-star game because he hadn't done it for a long enough time?

I think you are drawing hard and fast rules around where I think there should be guidelines.  Every year there seems to be a player that gets on the All-Star team because he has had a good, half-season.  I don't like that because inevitably many of these players revert to the norm.  (Like Soto has this season.)

I think recognition in the All Star game should be for players who have excelled over a longer length of time and not just for a few months.  For instance, I think Brian McCann should have been the starting catcher last year (and this year) because he is an established player who has proven that he can play at a high level over the course of more than one season.

[MU B2002]

But doesn't this happen in all sports, guys that maybe aren't the best at the position getting in the all-star game?  Instead of all of us arguing about this very fact, why don't we embrace it for what it is... a waste of 2.5 hours.  That sometimes ends in a tie.   

[copious1218]

I think you are drawing hard and fast rules around where I think there should be guidelines.  Every year there seems to be a player that gets on the All-Star team because he has had a good, half-season.  I don't like that because inevitably many of these players revert to the norm.  (Like Soto has this season.)

I think recognition in the All Star game should be for players who have excelled over a longer length of time and not just for a few months.  For instance, I think Brian McCann should have been the starting catcher last year (and this year) because he is an established player who has proven that he can play at a high level over the course of more than one season.

We'll have to agree to disagree on who deserves to be in the all-star game, but I will respond to two things:  1) You (not I) created a hard and fast rule when you said no rookie should be voted into the all-star game; and 2) Soto "reverting" to the norm is not correct - he has had an injured right shoulder since spring training and no one knows if the "norm" were his stats from last year or this year

[wadesworld]

I knew. KNEW that the sheer ignorance, jealously & crybaby attitude of the Brewer fans would poke through in this thread. Try putting it aside and have a logical baseball discussion. Please.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA this coming from a SCRUBS fan?!?!?! WOOOOOOW that is the most ironic statement I have EVER heard!

Not to mention, YOU are the one who started a thread about how unfair it is that a Brewer or Cardinal could get voted into the All-Star game.  But you're not whining/crying/whatever you want to call it.  Despite the fact that you said it "pisses you off."

And you're going by ESPN's Fantasy Rankings for outfielders in BOTH leagues to decide if Ryan Braun is a top 10 outfielder in the NL?  That seems weird to me.

I only see 3 Brewers/Cardinals in the lineup, not 8.  What gives?  You COULD replace the 3 players from these teams, but it's not like they're batting .100 and are just awful.  Basically with these 3 players, you don't lose either.  I'm not sure I understand who you think is THAT bad of a player that is getting voted in.

But you are right, Brewers fans are the ignorant ones.  I thought I had seen it all from Scrubs fans, but PTM, you just proved me wrong.  I should never be surprised by any Chicago sports fan.  Don't know how I forgot that.

[wadesworld]

Every single player is/has become a household name. Personally, I feel the lineups should look something more like this.

AL: Morneau, Kinsler, Longoria, Barlett/Zorbist, Mauer, Crawford, Cruz, & Bay.
NL: Gonzalez, Utley, Reynolds, Ramirez, McCann, Ibanez, Kemp & Beltran.


Putting your favorite team aside, what do your All-Star Game lineups look like?

Let me requote that for you.  You say: "Personally, I feel the lineups should look something more like this."

Then you go on and claim that those lineups are not who you believe should be in the All-Star Game and you state that you vote for Braun after leaving him out.  You say that these lineups are just based on statistics and not your opinion.  But again, I will point it out "Personally, I feel the lineups should look something like this."  That "Personally, I feel" part just doesn't match up to them being based just on statistics and not who you feel should really be in it.

[Mayor McCheese]

I think we can all agree on the fact that the all-star game is for the fans... correct?

Well who do the fans want to see in the all-star game, my guess is not flippin Nelson Cruz.

This is the result of offseason college basketball.

[🏀]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA this coming from a SCRUBS fan?!?!?! WOOOOOOW that is the most ironic statement I have EVER heard!

Not to mention, YOU are the one who started a thread about how unfair it is that a Brewer or Cardinal could get voted into the All-Star game.  But you're not whining/crying/whatever you want to call it.  Despite the fact that you said it "pisses you off."

And you're going by ESPN's Fantasy Rankings for outfielders in BOTH leagues to decide if Ryan Braun is a top 10 outfielder in the NL?  That seems weird to me.

I only see 3 Brewers/Cardinals in the lineup, not 8.  What gives?  You COULD replace the 3 players from these teams, but it's not like they're batting .100 and are just awful.  Basically with these 3 players, you don't lose either.  I'm not sure I understand who you think is THAT bad of a player that is getting voted in.

But you are right, Brewers fans are the ignorant ones.  I thought I had seen it all from Scrubs fans, but PTM, you just proved me wrong.  I should never be surprised by any Chicago sports fan.  Don't know how I forgot that.

Wadesworld, the reason why I don't respect anything you say when compared to the McCheeses and Navins is that you rarely have anything to say other than 'scrubs' and other non-baseball related bashing. If you could come up with something new just once and awhile it would go a long way for yourself.

As for any of your statements, I have addressed them already. Move along.

[🏀]

I think we can all agree on the fact that the all-star game is for the fans... correct?

Well who do the fans want to see in the all-star game, my guess is not flippin Nelson Cruz.

This is the result of offseason college basketball.

Yes, it's for the fans, but shouldn't the fans be getting to see the best players at their positions? Nelson Cruz is having the breakout year than many people thought he would. I think the kid deserves his chance to make the game. I think it's almost more enjoyable to see the young kids get caught up in the events and the game itself. Instead we get players like Pedro and Manny a few years back that didn't want to even play in the game because of 'injuries' when everyone knew they were flying back to the DR or elsewhere for a vacation.

[dwaderoy2004]

yes, but statistically, manny and pedro deserved to be there.  I have to agree with everyone else here...your arguments are all over the place.

[NavinRJohnson]

your arguments are all over the place.

That's what happens when you try to make an argument disguised as a different argument and are forced to back pedal.

[wadesworld]

Wadesworld, the reason why I don't respect anything you say when compared to the McCheeses and Navins is that you rarely have anything to say other than 'scrubs' and other non-baseball related bashing. If you could come up with something new just once and awhile it would go a long way for yourself.

As for any of your statements, I have addressed them already. Move along.

Well my next post I think everyone would agree was baseball related bashing.  In fact, if you reread it, you will see that I say "Scrubs" a whopping total of 0 times.  But why would I come up with something new?  They are Scrubs, so until they are something else I have no need to use anything else.

If you could please respond to my 2nd post that would be great.  My guess is you will respond to the 1st part of this post only with something along the lines of "I don't take you seriously," (as if I care whether or not you take me seriously) because you know your original posts and then your following posts completely contradict each other and there is no way to logically respond to that, so you will just ignore me and say that I have nothing worth reading to say to save yourself the embarrassment.  That is exactly what I mean by ignorant Scrubs fans.  As Mccheese has brought up multiple times, when they know they're stuck, they just ignore the part of the argument that they know the f'ed up and make a personal attack who pointed out the obvious flaw(s) in their argument.

So, I will ask again, which is it.  Is it "Personally, I feel the lineups should look something more like this," as in those lineups are the lineups you think should start, as the sentence you wrote clearly states, or is it that those lineups are not, in fact, what you "personally...feel the lineups should look" like and they are just the lineups that would be put out there if basing it SOLELY on statistics, like you later claim?  My guess is you will say you have addressed this already so that you do not have to explain yourself.  But which one is it, is it your personal feelings as to what the lineups should be, as you state?  Or is it the lineups that would be sent out based on statistics, as you also state?  If you could not ignore this question this time that would be great.

If the answer is that it is the lineup you feel should look like, as you state, then why would you vote for Ryan Braun?  If it is based on statistics and is not what you would vote for, then why did you label it as how you personally feel the lineup should look?

I'm trying to figure out another way to word that question, so that you can see it as many times as possible, and MAYBE you will respond to it instead of ignoring your CLEAR contradiction.  But you are just another ignorant Scrubs fan so I'm not expecting to get an answer, but instead just an attack on me.

You got yourself here PTM, not me.

[🏀]

You said Scrubs once, actually.

wadesworld, I'm going to do this for you. I have edited the original posts to more clearly define my thinking. Feel free to take a look at it. I could have edited right after it was apparent that my words were not well defined, but I didn't think this was necessary as I was trying to make a logical discussion about the All-Star Game, contrary to what the delusional and uber-defensive Brewer Savants have to say.

Now, I will disclose the list of NL All-Stars that I submitted a ballot for.

McCann
Gonzo
Utley
HamRam
Wright
Ibanez
Braun
Beltran

Hopefully this clears up your confusion. I'm sure there was no confusion actually on your part, it's just your lack of ability to have a baseball discussion. You have clearly displayed in the Pissing Match that anything above clever nicknames like 'Scrubs' and pictures of Goats Humping is way outside of your league, which isn't anything new for the typical Wisconsin Sports fan.

I would also like to thank you and Navin for instead of participating in a thread. Since neither of you have volunteered up a lineup, bashing my mis-logic in the original post was far more important to your insecurities and your manlove for Ryan Braun.

Also, please explain to us why the Chicago Cubs are 'scrubs'. Are they doctors? Do they not bathe regularly? Are their jersey's used as an abrasive cleaner? Are they an undersized person? Please! Enlighten me, and then impress me by having something worthy to say about baseball.

[BrewCity83]

I haven't voted, but this is who I might vote for:

McCann
Fielder
Weeks
Ramirez
Wright
Braun
Cameron
Beltran

As a Brewer fan, I vote for all of the Brewers that are having good seasons and then fill in the rest of the lineup with NL'ers that are raking.

A "scrub" is what you put into the game when you are resting the starters, as in during a blowout.

[wadesworld]

In the pissing match I have actually had logical discussion about how I do not believe the Cubs (are you happy?  Will I be taken more seriously?) are not as good as they were believed to be to start the year (which I think almost every baseball fan will agree with).  They have talent, but a lot of that talent is old, and a lot of it is injury prone.  Those were my 2 main points when I had a "logical baseball discussion" in a "pissing match."  By the title of the thread I didn't think it all had to be logical baseball discussion.  I apologize.

As to why they are scrubs, I don't know if you play pickup basketball with people you don't know or just mess around with friends, but when somebody is bad sometimes people call them a "scrub."  That is the "scrub" I use to refer to the Cubs.  I apologize if you think it is childish and inaccurate, it's all in good fun.

As far as who I would legitimately put into the All-Star Game:
AL:
1B for AL is tough, I've been voting Pena (can make cases for Teixeira and Morneau)
2B Kinsler
SS Ramirez
3B Longoria (Inge is having a great season there, I hope he gets voted in by the players/manager)
C Mauer
OF Dye, Bay, and Cruz (was in the Brewers system, happy to see him doing so well now)

NL:
1B Gonzolaz (definitely can't go wrong with Pujols, but I can't stand him...Prince isn't far back either)
2B Phillips (wish Weeks was still healthy)
SS Ramirez
3B Wright
C McCann
OF Kemp, Braun, Ibanez

As far as who I actually vote for, the AL is the same, but the NL I vote for all Brewers (write-in Mat Gamel because I can't stand Bill Hall).  I do so because I know that only Braun will be voted in to start, which I think is fair, and overall everyone who gets voted in will probably deserve to (there are others who also deserve it, you could make cases for either player), so why not take advantage of the system and get the Brewers recognized by getting 2nd and 3rd in a lot of positions?

[Ari Gold]

Yep.  As I said earlier in the thread, the All-Star game should be more than just the first half-season.  It should be about recent success over the past couple of seasons.

by that system:
Barry Bonds... All Star
Manny...All Star
The Head of Ted Williams... All Star
Mark Prior... All star


Also with this whole scrubs thing... It was a great season/series finale. I miss that show

[dwaderoy2004]

NL:
C: McCann
1B: Pujols
2B: Utley
3B: Zimmerman
SS: Tejada
OF: Ibanez
OF: Upton
OF: Braun

AL:
C: Martinez
1B: Morneau
2B: Hill
3B: Longoria
SS: Jeter
OF: Crawford
OF: Bay
OF: Hunter

[The Man in Gold]

I think if we are talking OF, which should be faster players, SB definitely has to be taken into consideration. All the stats are valued the same, do you disagree with looking at SB?

One of these guys hits in front of Prince Fielder and the other hits in front of David Murphy. Traditionally, runners prefer not to risk making outs on the base paths in front of the MLB RBI leader.    

Also, please explain to us why the Chicago Cubs are 'scrubs'. Are they doctors? Do they not bathe regularly? Are their jersey's used as an abrasive cleaner? Are they an undersized person? Please! Enlighten me, and then impress me by having something worthy to say about baseball.

As the dictionary by TLC explains to us, by definition a scrub is "a guy that thinks he's fly and is also known as a buster, always talkin' about what he wants and just sits on his broke ass."  So I'd say the definition fits pretty well.

[MU B2002]

As the dictionary by TLC explains to us, by definition a scrub is "a guy that thinks he's fly and is also known as a buster, always talkin' about what he wants and just sits on his broke ass."  So I'd say the definition fits pretty well.

(Chuckle chuckle) Thanks.

[BrewCity83]

As the dictionary by TLC explains to us, by definition a scrub is "a guy that thinks he's fly and is also known as a buster, always talkin' about what he wants and just sits on his broke ass."  So I'd say the definition fits pretty well.

The music guys at Miller Park should play that TLC "Scrubs" song when the (s)C(r)ubs come to town, ha ha.  Maybe that would be worth an email....we don't want no Scrubs...

[Chili]

Just to revive this lively debate - espn.com just updated their player rankings and look who they have as the third best player in all of baseball...Ryan Braun

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playerrating?type=batting&ratingId=3&season=2009

[BrewCity83]

#3 Braun, Milwaukee
#7 Fielder, Milwaukee

No Chicago players in the Top 50 this year.

[wadesworld]

#3 Braun, Milwaukee
#7 Fielder, Milwaukee

No Chicago players in the Top 50 this year.

...weird