Fran has weighed in

[ChicosBailBonds]

Food for thought:

Let's say another Big East private school (say ND or Depaul) lost a coach and one year later brought in the following recruiting class:

PG - Junior Cadougan (LOI) - Small school, some people could consider it a "basketball factory" if they just looked on the surface (yes, I know Junior is a great student, I'm just looking on the surface for argument's sake)
SG - Dwight Buycks (LOI) - Junior College player
SG - Darius Johnson-Odom (verbal) - Junior College player
SF - Erik Williams (LOI) - High school senior
PF - Jeronne Maymon (LOI) - High school senior
PF - Brett Roseboro (LOI) - High school senior
C -  Youssoupha Mbao (LOI) - Prep School at a small school that has had some questionable academics in the past

2010 Verbal Commitments
SG - Aaron Bowen- High school junior
PF/C - Monterale Clark - 2 year JC player who also transferred a couple of times in high school.

I guarantee you that we would all be impressed with the talent that ND or Depaul was bringing in, but would also be skeptical of who these kids really are.

I still trust that Buzz and MU are doing the right thing, but I'm not surprised by the reactions of MU fans and the rival fans.

I'm very optimistic for the future, but on the surface, this does look a little funky. We can admit that, right?

Yup, that's exactly what people here would say.  Plus a few unhinged would start throwing around $$ signs to imply paying off players, etc.  Just like they did when Pat Kennedy was around.  It's the nature of fandom.  It's ok to criticize your opponents (UC, UCONN, ND, DePaul) or a coach you hate (Crean, etc) but if we show the same behavior you're skewered for even bringing it up. 

It's like watching people react to Senators switching parties yesterday vs those same people's reactions when someone in their party switched last year (completely 180 degrees in opinion).  Or watching Bulls fans hate on Dennis Rodman as a Piston until he became a Bull, then suddenly he's a prince.  There are millions of examples of hypocrisy.  Just the way folks are, all of us (including myself in that statement).

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Well, I'll admit that people who really understand recruiting would probably not criticize DePaul program for taking these players, because they know the truth about these players and the actual risks.

But, the basic fans and the internet whores (like myself), would most likely be skeptical if another school was bringing in the same class. (Depaul is a perfect example, BTW).

We would just see things like "JUCO", "Prep School", "Multiple transfers in high school", etc. as assume that the school is starting to sell out to bring in talent.

Is that really the case?

Maybe, maybe not.

But, that would certainly be the perception for those not close to the DePaul program.

MU is no different.

[Lennys Tap]

And your same old tired rehash of false statements is getting old.  I have complimented Buzz many many many times over but you and a few others refuse to acknowledge it. I can put it in glowing font and you still ignore it.  I don't get it.   Yet when I make a comment that he was given a great team handed to him, you guys take that as a slap against Buzz...it isn't, it's simply a factual statement.  He was handed a great team.  And he did VERY WELL WITH IT (assume that last sentence is in a glowing font that you might notice and attribute to the poster).  Again and again, he did a very good job this past year BUT I will be thoroughly convinced a few years down the road (that is not a slam on him, it's the reality of the situation.  Too many guys have failed in years 3 - 5 just as many have succeeded....I'll wait to pass full judgment thank you very much, but so far so good.)


And while you're at it, why do you single me out?  There are many others here that have those same concerns about perceptions. I'd hate for your bitching to be so narrowly focused when there are other fish in the barrell for you to take a shot at.  I'd hate for you to have to remove your blinders.

Sorry if you think I'm picking on you, but you did start this thread by printing Fran's "Has MU sold its soul" diatribe and later admitting to posting an 85% agreement on the Badger Board. I guess that and your posting 10 times on the thread made you the "lead dog" in my view. So to pjdunn, MUshrooms,ecompt and PRN (who all briefly expessed agreement with you) allow me to express my disagreement. Hope this makes you happy.

[mugrad99]

1. grow thicker skin
2. stay off the internet

Passive aggressive people like him are not going to change their ways no matter how much you argue with him. Does it really matter what a bunch of internet crazies think about MU's recruiting? If these players represent MU well over their 2-4 years, you will have the last laugh.

[GGGG]

I absolutely do not care.  I only responded to it becuase you said we were on equal.  I did take objection tho becuase to compare Mu to UW is like comparing Mu to NW in basketball or some other pereeniial doormat, the washigton generals or something.  I am not from Wisconsin but being from the Midwest and knowing the B10 for 40 years when you are compared to being on par over the years with a UW I know a slap in the face when i feel it. 

And...again...I will state that while history means something, immediate history is more important.  And in recent history, UW's and MU's program has been roughly equal.  Sorry if you view that as a slap in the face.

[Nukem2]

1. grow thicker skin
2. stay off the internet

Passive aggressive people like him are not going to change their ways no matter how much you argue with him. Does it really matter what a bunch of internet crazies think about MU's recruiting? If these players represent MU well over their 2-4 years, you will have the last laugh.

Indee, I'm with you.  Getting into wordsmithing with Mr. BowTie is silly and unrewarding.  Ignore him and one will be so much the better for it.

[Lennys Tap]

1. grow thicker skin
2. stay off the internet

Passive aggressive people like him are not going to change their ways no matter how much you argue with him. Does it really matter what a bunch of internet crazies think about MU's recruiting? If these players represent MU well over their 2-4 years, you will have the last laugh.

You are 100% correct on Frannie. If the EXACT SAME scenarios were to exist at MU and UW, Fran would report on the disaster at MU and the triumph at UW. He doesn't concern me one iota. Our fans that agree with him do.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Sorry if you think I'm picking on you, but you did start this thread by printing Fran's "Has MU sold its soul" diatribe and later admitting to posting an 85% agreement on the Badger Board. I guess that and your posting 10 times on the thread made you the "lead dog" in my view. So to pjdunn, MUshrooms,ecompt and PRN (who all briefly expessed agreement with you) allow me to express my disagreement. Hope this makes you happy.

Nothing to do with Happiness Lenny, it's simply about getting it right.

The thing is that it's not just on this thread, it's as if you ignore the complements I give Buzz all the time which is really what I have to question.  Whether it's you, Hayward, and three or four others, you put it in absolute terms.  I don't understand why.  There are very very very few people here that are anti-Buzz yet you and others portray some of us, including myself, as if we are anti-Buzz.  Couldn't be farther from the truth. 

I'm not anti-Buzz, I want him to do well, I complement him often and all these things are ignored as if they never happen.  I don't get it.  You're entitled to write whatever you want, but I just want you to at least get in the ballpark on your accusations.  To suggest I NEVER say anything good about Buzz, or ALWAYS blame Buzz or don't want him to do well is just flat out wrong.  I'm not going to get on my knees and blow him (I'm stealing that from a poster last week who said I blow TC) because I want a few years to judge him.  If others want to do that, fine.  On the other hand, I certainly want him to succeed.  He's going to be our guy for the next few years at a minimum so we should all want him to succeed.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Indee, I'm with you.  Getting into wordsmithing with Mr. BowTie is silly and unrewarding.  Ignore him and one will be so much the better for it.

I thought I had a good one on their board today with my reference to Big foot and Lochness.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

And...again...I will state that while history means something, immediate history is more important.  And in recent history, UW's and MU's program has been roughly equal.  Sorry if you view that as a slap in the face.

You are correct....did someone honestly say our program is better than theirs in recent history?  Total homers if they did.

They have more conference championships, more regular season wins, more tournament wins, more conference tournament wins, more NCAA bids, more head to head wins against us in the last 15 years.

In the last 5 years, I'd call the programs pretty close....they got a gift one year of playing 3 straight double digit dogs in the NCAAs, but other than that it's been pretty close (we've had to play in a much tougher conference which evens things out).


But the last 15, not really that close.   Certainly if you evaluate the programs in their entirety then MU wins hands down.   All depends on what time interval is chosen. 

I'm sure I'm a hater for stating this, but factually I don't know how it can be argued.

[rocky_warrior]

Having said that, moving forward I wouldn't be surprised if Buzz continues to scour the JC route more than what MU has been recently accustomed to but then again, that's to be expected.  Buzz maintains strong ties there and so long as his future JC recruits are more in the mold of J.Butler (both in terms of perceived character and proven basketball skills) then there's nothing to be ashamed of in that.

Agreed that he may look at more JUCOs than we're used too.  However, I don't think it's because his roots are firmly entrenched there.  I believe him when he says "We're looking to sign the best players available".   Some kids are not available to MU because they're not interested.  But Buzz seems willing to sign the best kids available to him regardless where they are from.  From the sounds of it, none of the guys he's signed sound like social misfits, so I don't see any problem with them doing well (athletically and academically) at MU.

[PJDunn]

Sorry if you think I'm picking on you, but you did start this thread by printing Fran's "Has MU sold its soul" diatribe and later admitting to posting an 85% agreement on the Badger Board. I guess that and your posting 10 times on the thread made you the "lead dog" in my view. So to pjdunn, MUshrooms,ecompt and PRN (who all briefly expessed agreement with you) allow me to express my disagreement. Hope this makes you happy.

Actually Leonard, I welcome your differing point of view.  Considering that we are in the true dog days of college bball this has been a pretty entertaining thread.  Once the season starts my sanctimonious side will give way to a more Al Davis type attitude.

[Lennys Tap]

Nothing to do with Happiness Lenny, it's simply about getting it right.

The thing is that it's not just on this thread, it's as if you ignore the complements I give Buzz all the time which is really what I have to question.  Whether it's you, Hayward, and three or four others, you put it in absolute terms.  I don't understand why.  There are very very very few people here that are anti-Buzz yet you and others portray some of us, including myself, as if we are anti-Buzz.  Couldn't be farther from the truth. 

I'm not anti-Buzz, I want him to do well, I complement him often and all these things are ignored as if they never happen.  I don't get it.  You're entitled to write whatever you want, but I just want you to at least get in the ballpark on your accusations.  To suggest I NEVER say anything good about Buzz, or ALWAYS blame Buzz or don't want him to do well is just flat out wrong.  I'm not going to get on my knees and blow him (I'm stealing that from a poster last week who said I blow TC) because I want a few years to judge him.  If others want to do that, fine.  On the other hand, I certainly want him to succeed.  He's going to be our guy for the next few years at a minimum so we should all want him to succeed.

I am USUALLY very careful when using ALWAYS and NEVER. If I have erred in this regard, please point out an example(s) and I'll gladly apologize.
You say you are not anti-Buzz and that you compliment him often and I suppose that is "technically" true. Since you are a Marquette fan you would never root for him to lose. But you didn't care for the way he was hired or THAT he was hired. You predicted MU to be 20-11, 9-9 in the BEast despite the fact that TC had left him (in your view) a "scary good" team, so it's clear you doubted his coaching acumen. Once it became clear that he could coach TC's players better than TC could, you began to wonder about his recruitng prowess and sustainability. Now that he's signed what is projected to be one of the top classes in the country, you're concerned about how Marquette haters like Fran perceive our program. Oh, and during the season you were quick to diminish his victories (weak competition) while reminding us often what a bad loss South Florida was. And how can we ever forget how you so selflessly gave of your time to scour the New Orleans' board, bringing us the thoughts of the most disgruntled among them. I'm not doubt omitting many more examples, but I think you get the gist. Your rep as anti-Buzz is long standing and well earned.
I will agree that of late you have taken to "complimenting" Buzz more often, though many smack of the "she doesn't sweat much for a fat girl" kind. Most people don't consider it much of a compliment when it's immediately followed by a "so far" or "up to this point". A compliment that takes a few words to say and a paragraph to qualify isn't really a compliment.
I'd like to re-emphasize one point. I would NEVER suggest that that you are anything but a Marquette fan.

[Lennys Tap]

Actually Leonard, I welcome your differing point of view.  Considering that we are in the true dog days of college bball this has been a pretty entertaining thread.  Once the season starts my sanctimonious side will give way to a more Al Davis type attitude.

I'm so old I remember when the Raiders could back up Al's "Just win, baby" slogan.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I am USUALLY very careful when using ALWAYS and NEVER. If I have erred in this regard, please point out an example(s) and I'll gladly apologize.
You say you are not anti-Buzz and that you compliment him often and I suppose that is "technically" true. Since you are a Marquette fan you would never root for him to lose. But you didn't care for the way he was hired or THAT he was hired. I certainly didn't care for the way he was hired but I said OFTEN that I was ok with hiring him, just not that early.  I wanted to exhaust other options first, not hire him 56 hours after it started.  If Buzz was going to be the guy, fine but not that fast. He could have been had 2 weeks later and we all know it. So I don't agree with your second premise at all.  You predicted MU to be 20-11, 9-9 in the BEast despite the fact that TC had left him (in your view) a "scary good" team, so it's clear you doubted his coaching acumen. Yup.  I put my prediction out there BEFORE the season.  I said I wasn't sure what to expect from him as he only had one year under his belt as head coach.  Different system, how would they all adjust, etc.  I was also greatly concerned about the loss of Barro.  Again, why are you ignoring the multiple posts where I said how well he was doing but instead focusing on one BEFORE THE SEASON STARTED.   I mean...really?   Once it became clear that he could coach TC's players better than TC could, (really...sorry, but I think TC would have gotten us to the 2nd round of the NCAAs also with this same team) you began to wonder about his recruitng prowess and sustainability. There are coaches a plenty that sign great recruiting classes with time to sell, Tom Crean included.  That is a fact.  I said time will tell, why is this so hard for you to understand?  I clearly said, I hope he continues the recruiting haul, but TIME WILL TELL.  That's not a slam on Buzz, it's stating the obvious.  Not everyone produces each year. Now that he's signed what is projected to be one of the top classes in the country, you're concerned about how Marquette haters like Fran perceive our program. I'm concerned how many people perceive Marquette, not just Fran.  I'm concerned about people in general, which is why there are many more people outside of just Fran that have made those comments.  But yes, you will see more and more of this kind of stuff from our opponents.  I, for one Lenny, enjoyed being respected by other teams that played us.  That could change due to some perceptions now.  That would be unfortunate.  If this is a one year situation, then no big deal.  If it's the beginning of the norm, then that would be unfortunate. Oh, and during the season you were quick to diminish his victories (weak competition) while reminding us often what a bad loss South Florida was. Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize South Florida wasn't a bad loss....again a FACTUAL statement, not an opinion.  Secondly, our non-conference schedule was one of the worst we had played since Kevin O'Neill...again, a factual statement based on Ken Pom and RPI archives.  I was just stating a fact.   And correct me if I'm wrong, weren't there experts up and down on ESPN, CNN, SI, etc all wondering how good we really were since we had not played anyone in the conference until late?  I guess they're all Buzz haters.   And how can we ever forget how you so selflessly gave of your time to scour the New Orleans' board, bringing us the thoughts of the most disgruntled among them.  Again, I'm sorry.  It's ok to post daily opinions from other fans about our other coaches or former coaches but not about Buzz....am I understanding that correctly?  Just want to make sure.  Again, yes I did post that thread but you ignore all the ones where I complement him.  Let me ask you a question Lenny, is it possible in your world to both praise and criticize someone or must someone ONLY praise or ONLY critique?  I'm not doubt omitting many more examples, but I think you get the gist. Your rep as anti-Buzz is long standing and well earned.
I will agree that of late you have taken to "complimenting" Buzz more often, though many smack of the "she doesn't sweat much for a fat girl" kind. Maybe tomorrow when I'm on the plane I'll do a little mining to show you how often you have missed on your assertions....especially when you imply that it's only recently.  You're just flat out wrong on that.  Flat out wrong.  Most people don't consider it much of a compliment when it's immediately followed by a "so far" or "up to this point". Oh, I see.  So no qualifications are ok when complementing or stating an opinion.  You can't say....so far my new car is great...it's simply my new car is great and always will be.  It's no longer, the economy sucks ass right now it's the notion that it will suck ass forever.  Really, do you believe everything you write.  You can't qualify a complement with "so far"?  You have to be kidding me.  A compliment that takes a few words to say and a paragraph to qualify isn't really a compliment.
I'd like to re-emphasize one point. I would NEVER suggest that that you are anything but a Marquette fan.

[Lennys Tap]

Chicos,

Some people would say "I love my new car" as they drive away from the dealership. Some would say it after weeks of satisfaction and some after months. It doesn't mean they will love it forever.  A few might  say after more than one year of satisfaction "I like my no longer new car so far but I want a few more years to decide if I really like it."

When you give someone a compliment in the present tense (You're doing a great job, Chicos) the "so fars" and the "up til nows" are implied and understood. Voicing them seems redundant and almost threatening to me. So I don't see your compliments as sincere.

I know that you think I have made my mind up on Buzz and to a certain extent you're right. I think he has proven he can coach and recruit and he impresses me as a high character guy. I'm sold on him in the PRESENT. If I stay sold on him in the PRESENT the FUTURE will take care of itself. If not, I reserve the right to admit I was wrong and change my opinion. But I won't straddle the fence in the NOW over what might or might not happen years from now.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos,

Some people would say "I love my new car" as they drive away from the dealership. Some would say it after weeks of satisfaction and some after months. It doesn't mean they will love it forever.  A few might  say after more than one year of satisfaction "I like my no longer new car so far but I want a few more years to decide if I really like it."

When you give someone a compliment in the present tense (You're doing a great job, Chicos) the "so fars" and the "up til nows" are implied and understood. Voicing them seems redundant and almost threatening to me. So I don't see your compliments as sincere.

I know that you think I have made my mind up on Buzz and to a certain extent you're right. I think he has proven he can coach and recruit and he impresses me as a high character guy. I'm sold on him in the PRESENT. If I stay sold on him in the PRESENT the FUTURE will take care of itself. If not, I reserve the right to admit I was wrong and change my opinion. But I won't straddle the fence in the NOW over what might or might not happen years from now.

Well I don't give my undying love to a coach, Lenny.  People have to continue to earn it.  So far, he's done a good job.  He exceeded my expectations.   (please note the glowing font, wouldn't want you to miss it).   But yes, I'll add a "so far" to it because he has a long way to go before I'm "sold on him" as you are.  Where we differ is that you construe that as being anti-Buzz, which is not the case.  I call it being cautious and not infatuated.   If he continues  to get similar results by years 4 and 5, I'll be sold on him.  He's a good man it seems, represents the university well though I think some of the recruiting has been a bit risky (not just my impression, but I'm just a hater  ) 

I'm much more cautious then you are I guess.  I don't give the smooches out as quickly or the I Love Yous on the first date like some do.  People need to prove it over the long haul.  I guess that's why I'm a pain in the ass to work for.      

[MR.HAYWARD]

1. Why does anyone care about the thoughts of a Badger fan who's right about as often as a broken clock?

2. When UW stops admitting the likes of Boo Wade, Marcetteaus McGee,  Lance Smith-Williams, Booker Stanley, Dwayne Smith, etc., then they can start lecturing Marquette on the quality of its student-athletes.

Are you referring to Fran here?  if so i agree with you totally!

If you are actually referring to chicos...she is a IU fan.

[MR.HAYWARD]

Nothing to do with Happiness Lenny, it's simply about getting it right.

The thing is that it's not just on this thread, it's as if you ignore the complements I give Buzz all the time which is really what I have to question.  Whether it's you, Hayward, and three or four others, you put it in absolute terms.  I don't understand why.  There are very very very few people here that are anti-Buzz yet you and others portray some of us, including myself, as if we are anti-Buzz.  Couldn't be farther from the truth. 

I'm not anti-Buzz, I want him to do well, I complement him often and all these things are ignored as if they never happen.  I don't get it.  You're entitled to write whatever you want, but I just want you to at least get in the ballpark on your accusations.  To suggest I NEVER say anything good about Buzz, or ALWAYS blame Buzz or don't want him to do well is just flat out wrong.  I'm not going to get on my knees and blow him (I'm stealing that from a poster last week who said I blow TC) because I want a few years to judge him.  If others want to do that, fine.  On the other hand, I certainly want him to succeed.  He's going to be our guy for the next few years at a minimum so we should all want him to succeed.

Evry compliment is with a but...,  every compliment is backhanded,  everything is passive -agressive to wards Buzz.  It's a joke and when you get called out on it you back pedal and throw in a few snide complimnets.  it all has an exception and you take the devils advocate role with everything.  Then you go on the wisconsin and Indiana boards and agree with them and show even more true colors.  Give me this "that is just how i am"  bullcarap a break.  Under Crean who did even more than waht Buzz is doing everything was fine.  Your support is always qualified with something.  qualified/contingent support along with tearing into Mu on the IU and UW boards shows your patheticness.

[jaygall31]

I can't wait till we pull the upset AGAIN in madison again next year, can't wait.

[RawdogDX]

bablah bablah bablah.  can someone tell me when someone does something wrong?  Untill they do it's just a bunch of speculation by middle aged adults about 19 year olds who got a bad SAT score when they were 16.  They might be bad people, they might not.  They might be good players and good people.  They might be 5 good people who are all crap players and two on the court studs who fight pitbulls.  4 pages of 'who gives a crap' posts with no substance.   Who cares? who cares? who cares?  wake me up when one of them A: hits a girl. B: doesn't graduate C: sucks on the court and costs us a game.  Till then, why post any of this. (not a real question, i don't care)

And if you agree with me don't feed the trolls, just say, 'whaterver' and roll your eyes.  You don't need to validate the 50 year old who is freaking out because a kid from africa got a degree from a school with a high percentage of students on the basketball team.   

[lorthneeda]

The problem I have with all this nonsense is when Chicos says "Buzz better not keep doing this...maybe this year it's alright, but if he keeps doing it, it's a problem."

I assume you are referring to the signing of prep schoolers and JUCO players.  Why the hell would it matter?  If they are good players and good people and they graduate and do everything right, what does it matter where they come from?  Has Buzz given any indication that he will do anything but recruit high quality individuals?  Absolutely not.

You are buying into the perception fed by the old Cincy teams where nobody graduated and they were all thugs.  If they aren't, then it just isn't a problem.  Right now, you're just reacting to some A-hole on the Badger board.  Why even justify it with a response?  They have their own agendas.  Everything they write will be negative towards Marquette.  Why feed into it?

Bottom line:  everything I've read from you is just pathetic, but this thread tops it all.

[mufansince72]

I was just wondering.  Is Fran and Gerry Woelful the same guy?  They always seem to have similar takes on MU!

[ecompt]

Indeelaw: I was not criticizing Buzz for what he's doing and I trust that he'll bring in good kids who will be a credit to the university academically. I was only pointing out that I hope this year is an aberration in terms of recruiting. I'd like to think we'd have a bunch of Three Amigos, Dieners, Novaks, Tony Smiths, etc. to build our program around.

[Pakuni]

I can't wait till we pull the upset AGAIN in madison again next year, can't wait.

I'm not convinced it'll be much of an upset.
UW will have an edge with experience and home court, but in terms of sheer talent, MU, I think, will be better. Certainly the best player in the court will be wearing blue.
The fact the game is earlier in the season probably benefits UW as well, but if MU can put it all together that quickly, there's no reason to believe they won't win that game.