Fran has weighed in

[muarmy81]

Deleted.

[ZMovieman]

Not to spin this off into a whole different topic... but...

I think it depends on the person to determine what is "harder".

I know some incredibly smart engineers and medical students who couldn't tie their own shoes. If you put them in Comm. or Marketing they would bomb. They are certainly "smart enough", but a lot of things that come easy to a Comm. student wouldn't be so easy for the engineer and vice versa.

Some people can do it all (engage left and right side of their brain, communicate well, creative but still analytical, etc.), those people are usually very successful in the "real world"

With all of this said, for most people, a Comm. degree is certainly less intimidating and probably less challenging than a degree in biomedical engineering.

Thanks for the assist. This is really more along the lines of what I was arguing about. It may be just semantics, but I found my science courses easier than playwrighting, for instance. Harder is a relative term. As for schedules, I defy you to find someone who maintained some of the schedules adhered to by theatre, broadcasting, journalist, and social justice students and tell them that because they didn't have a lab, they had an easier class load.

I guess I am just put off by the general assumption that if you major in communications or social justice, that you are taking the easier path. I know we are talking in generals, because there are always exceptions. I just find the perception insulting, even if no offense was intended.

[Fullodds]

Fran may be concerned because he saw Jeter's failures in recruiting when he began at UWM.

I think it is tough to look at one recruiting class and draw a conclusion about how MU will operate or how Buzz will recruit in the future.  This recruiting class was unique for many reasons:  (a) Buzz's first real class; (b) replacing one of the best recruiting classes ever.

Buzz came in and in one year brought a ton of talent to MU from just about everywhere in the US.  I think that in the future Buzz will go where the talent is and recruit talent.  

The Rob Jeter example is interesting.  Jeter was forced to replace a ton of UWM "talent" and went out and brought in some of the worst characters you could find.  Torre Johnson was a known troublemaker and Jeter knew the risks but went there anyway and Johnson experienced the Milwaukee criminal justice system firsthand.  Tim Flowers and his buddy also had enormous baggage as well but they were welcomed because of their talent --- both would be gone before their first year.  I can't recall the other casualties but they also had a very short stay at UWM.    

Jeter took a risk (or multiple risks) and lost.  It appears as if he has changed his recruiting approach because the situation is different now then when he took the job.

Buzz has also brought in kids that may or may not have problems.  None of them have Torre Johnson problems.   All are unique and may or may not last.  That goes for every kid in every program.  I say we wait and see and let Buzz take his shot.

The point is that Jeter, like any new coach, has adjusted his style of recruiting based on factors in play:  balance the classes, replace needs, etc.

One recruiting class is too small of a sample size to draw conclusions about future classes.

[GooooMarquette]

I love the condescending and misguided comment about her "long suffering MU friends."

MU's past, present and now future hoops prospects are all better than UW's.  We've been to the final four more often and more recently, and have won the last two versions of UW's Super Bowl.  But other than that, she's right:  UW is so much better than MU.

[GGGG]

So what you are then saying is that MU has a better program than say an IU or a Georgetown, or possibly a Kentucky based on the last ten years?  Please that is a reatrded remark.  The last ten years has been heretofore never seen before peak of Wisconsin basketball yet is by your own admission on par with MU.  Now would you like to review the the last 5 decades?  Even the 80's clearly Mu's low water mark were better than the 80's in Madison.  Wisconisn was the doormat battling NW for last place every year in the B11 for the last 50 years until the last decade.  

Tradition matters no doubt.  But so does immediacy.  I love the fact that Marquette has a long and proud basketball history.  As an alum, it makes me feel good.  But to an outside audience, I have no idea what relevance it has in 2009 that MU won a basketball title in 1977.  My larger point is...why do we care so much?  Do we feel better about ourselves because we claim to have a better basketball program than UW?  We should root for MU because it is *our* team...not because we think they are "better."

BTW, I think it is ironically funny that you spelled "retarded" wrong.

[Ready2Fly]

Ready2Fly....I would ask the caribou.

Nice try.  I'm not who you're insinuating, I am, I graduated in '06.  I'm glad you were able to read my e-mail address that I wasn't attempting to hide, though.

And that still doesn't answer my question of why you post much different things here than you do under the name MUwarrior74 on the Badger board. 

Which is it?  Are you deeply concerned about Stoneridge and all these JUCO's, as you post here?  Or is one NCAA certified school the same as any other, like you posted over there?

[ChicosBailBonds]

As alluded to in an earlier post in this thread, the JUCO recruits have a far different flavor to them than the usual Big 12 / Bob Huggins type recruitment of JUCOs.  Three are actually qualifiers and have 3 years of elegibility in Fulce, Butler and (ultimately) DJO.  Buycks and Clark are local guys who have overcome adversity.  Mbao is really an international guy who is getting his footing in the USA at (unfortuately from an appearance standpoint) Stoneridge HS.  From all accounts, Youss does not have academic issues, but rather eligibility issues due to his international status and his escperience in Spain.  Normally, I too would not be thrilled with taking a number of JUCOS in a short time frame.  But, this seems to be a different scenario here.  Certainly Fulce and Butler have worked out well.  In the end, all of this speculation by BB Fran (and Chicos, who stated on Badger Nation under his Striped Tomato handle that he agrees with 85% of  BB's post)  is far too premature. Also, Buzz is an upstanding guy.  He is not taking foolish chances.

The 85% I agree with is the same that other posters here have also stated, like Ecompt, etc.  That is from a perception standpoint it's a marked change from the past.   I've also said that Buzz is an upstanding guy and seems to want his kids to graduate, etc....thus I don't think he's taking a foolish chance.  But there is no question the approach has changed and that is mostly what Fran is talking about.  We've never had this many Juco's on our team at one time that I'm aware of.  I don't recall us ever taking a kid from a prep school that was delisted by the NCAA either.   That's the 85% that I'm referencing. 

I also think his last paragraph is largely correct, though typical in his condescending and arrogant tone.  This isn't 1977 anymore....we've had two Sweet 16's since then.  The key is that teh other 15%, where he's a complete horse's ass and factually incorrect, I don't agree with him on.

[MR.HAYWARD]

As alluded to in an earlier post in this thread, the JUCO recruits have a far different flavor to them than the usual Big 12 / Bob Huggins type recruitment of JUCOs.  Three are actually qualifiers and have 3 years of elegibility in Fulce, Butler and (ultimately) DJO.  Buycks and Clark are local guys who have overcome adversity.  Mbao is really an international guy who is getting his footing in the USA at (unfortuately from an appearance standpoint) Stoneridge HS.  From all accounts, Youss does not have academic issues, but rather eligibility issues due to his international status and his escperience in Spain.  Normally, I too would not be thrilled with taking a number of JUCOS in a short time frame.  But, this seems to be a different scenario here.  Certainly Fulce and Butler have worked out well.  In the end, all of this speculation by BB Fran (and Chicos, who stated on Badger Nation under his Striped Tomato handle that he agrees with 85% of  BB's post)  is far too premature. Also, Buzz is an upstanding guy.  He is not taking foolish chances.

My guess is chicos and Fran are the same person after having read their remarks, like Sybil a szysophrenic having a conversation whith himself.  they seem to agree while everyone else thinks he is an idiot

[MR.HAYWARD]

Tradition matters no doubt.  But so does immediacy.  I love the fact that Marquette has a long and proud basketball history.  As an alum, it makes me feel good.  But to an outside audience, I have no idea what relevance it has in 2009 that MU won a basketball title in 1977.  My larger point is...why do we care so much?  Do we feel better about ourselves because we claim to have a better basketball program than UW?  We should root for MU because it is *our* team...not because we think they are "better."

BTW, I think it is ironically funny that you spelled "retarded" wrong.

I absolutely do not care.  I only responded to it becuase you said we were on equal.  I did take objection tho becuase to compare Mu to UW is like comparing Mu to NW in basketball or some other pereeniial doormat, the washigton generals or something.  I am not from Wisconsin but being from the Midwest and knowing the B10 for 40 years when you are compared to being on par over the years with a UW I know a slap in the face when i feel it.  Sure they have had a nice 10 year run, but they were a 40 year laughinstock while Mu was a power.  obviously wisocnison dwelling Mu fans may take more exception to you saying UW is on Par with Mu but i still take exception and pointed out the lunancy of your statement.

[The Lens]

I really tried to let this crap go but it's bothering me. Are you implying that a communications or social justice degree is inherently less difficult than business or engineering? That's utter bullcrap. A degree is what you make of it. Frankly, the truth is that the reason a lot of athletes are in these fields is because the classes do not have a lot of labs (which would create scheduling issues) and the general ed's are fewer in Communication than the other colleges. Sorry if this comes across as a sensitive graduate yelling to get off the high horse, but the implication that comm or soj courses are easier or for traditionally academically challenged students pisses me off.

Z, I hope you're the Dean of Comm b/c everyone else knows and admits it's easy.  I'm a proud grad of ADPR, it ain't rocket science.  I was able to close a bar Tues-Sat and still carry a respectable QPA, intern at a top agency and create a nice career.  There's no way in the world my college curriculum was even 75% as tough as my high school course work.  

[ZMovieman]

Z, I hope you're the Dean of Comm b/c everyone else knows and admits it's easy.  I'm a proud grad of ADPR, it ain't rocket science.  I was able to close a bar Tues-Sat and still carry a respectable QPA, intern at a top agency and create a nice career.  There's no way in the world my college curriculum was even 75% as tough as my high school course work.  

You don't have to be dean of communication to take pride in their academics. Again, it's all relative and what you make of it, but as I said above and repeat now: I guess I am just put off by the general assumption that if you major in communications or social justice, that you are taking the easier path. I know we are talking in generals, because there are always exceptions. I just find the perception insulting, even if no offense was intended.

For what it's worth, even though I majored in the College of Communication, it was not my primary major nor was I a member of it.

[GOMU1104]

"The Past is to be respected and acknowledged, but not to be worshiped. It is our future in which we will find our greatness." –  Pierre Trudeau

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ready2Fly, I'm pretty sure I'm clear as a bell that I'm concerned about Stoneridge, not the student athlete. 

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14640.75

I'm not wild about all the Juco's, but it's tempered with the fact that three of them were already qualifiers out of high school. 

I hope this is a one-off situation.  I'd prefer to win without a potential perception of going a route that MU has not historically taken.   Perhaps that is not possible anymore, but I think it still is.  Fran's comments, at least some of them, have resonated with many people on this site as well as the Journal Sentinel site from what I've read.   Whether it's risky or not is a matter of opinion.  Some think it's not, others do.  Fran seems to think it does....I'm leaning toward that way if it continues.  Those fears will lessen if kids continue to graduate, no issues, etc.  But let's not be naive, if grad rates plummet, things start happening off the court, people will point to a different recruiting approach (fairly or unfairly). 

Crean took some JUCOs and prep school kids.  KO did as well.  So we are not without a history of taking some of these kids, but I don't recall doing so in this quantity.  Someone can set me straight if that's not the case.

I do think it's interesting that Cottingham and the powers that be are green lighting this.  Since Cottingham is buddies with Fran, that makes his comments even more interesting.  In essence, he's taking a swipe at his pal.  They must be comfortable with the approach or I can't imagine they would let it happen. 

All these kids seem like good kids (just keep them off YouTube  ) but to ignore the perceptions is sticking one's head in the sand.  If perceptions don't bother you, then this won't bother you. If perceptions are important to you, then the new direction can be a POTENTIAL red flag (we'll see). 

[Nukem2]

The 85% I agree with is the same that other posters here have also stated, like Ecompt, etc.  That is from a perception standpoint it's a marked change from the past.    I've also said that Buzz is an upstanding guy and seems to want his kids to graduate, etc....thus I don't think he's taking a foolish chance.  But there is no question the approach has changed and that is mostly what Fran is talking about.  We've never had this many Juco's on our team at one time that I'm aware of.  I don't recall us ever taking a kid from a prep school that was delisted by the NCAA either.   That's the 85% that I'm referencing. 

I also think his last paragraph is largely correct, though typical in his condescending and arrogant tone.  This isn't 1977 anymore....we've had two Sweet 16's since then.  The key is that teh other 15%, where he's a complete horse's ass and factually incorrect, I don't agree with him on.

Ah, but thats my point.  Has the approach truly changed that dramatically?  Three JUCOs who were HS qualifiers (even if the clearinghouse dragged its feet on DJO)and two local kids who have straightened out their lives using the JUCO route is not like going out in April and tracking down the best JUCO available as the Big 12 ( read Kelvin Sampson) routinely does is not that different than getting Mbakwe eleigible and having Saunders in the wing.  Remember that Buzz had large holes to fill and unbalanced classes to re-balance because of Crean's departure.  Again, the Mbao situation is really no different than Barro.  Ooze was at Chicago Julian with the same coach that formed the short-lived Boys to Men Academy. Barro was just fine as I'm sure Youssoupha will.  Unlike many posters here, I tend to agree with most of your posts; but, I think you may be too "concerned" at this point.

[Pakuni]

1. Why does anyone care about the thoughts of a Badger fan who's right about as often as a broken clock?

2. When UW stops admitting the likes of Boo Wade, Marcetteaus McGee,  Lance Smith-Williams, Booker Stanley, Dwayne Smith, etc., then they can start lecturing Marquette on the quality of its student-athletes.

[tower912]

Innocent until proven guilty.  Buzz has accumulated height and talent in ways his predecessors didn't.   Perhaps by necessity, perhaps by design, we now have recruiting classes that are balanced by (A) position, (B) years of eligibility.    Not one of them has done anything worse than said something stupid on youtube.   Ooooooooooh, I NEVER said anything stupid in my youth.       Other than Mboa's possible participation in a foreign professional league, the only one with even POSSIBLE eligibility issues is a high-schooler.  Every previous coach has brought in JUCO's.   Every previous coach has had kids that washed out or transferred for some reason.   Buzz had big holes to fill and he filled them.  These kids are innocent until proven guilty.   I assume Buzz is going to continue to get the job done until he proves he can't.    Fran is a douche.    He's proven that.

[ChicosBailBonds]

 Unlike many posters here, I tend to agree with most of your posts; but, I think you may be too "concerned" at this point.

What, most posters don't agree with me?   


Your points are well taken, perhaps it's the quantity that has me more concerned. I don't recall this many kids in one class.  Typically there were 1, maybe two most years but this year seems to be the lion's share. Yes, big holes to fill and he's balanced the classes.  It's the right thing to do in order to get back to a balanced class scenario.  I think I've also said I hope this isn't the norm but the exception.  Do you think that will be the case?   If it becomes the norm, does that bother you?

[tower912]

In a perfect world, this is a one time solution.   If it becomes the norm, why?   If EWill, Jerrone, DJO, Buycks, and Mboa are all so good that they are one or two and gone and Buzz needs to reload, if he comes up with more talent that upholds the MU name, then yeah, I am OK with it.  That is something rarely asked here.   What if these kids actually live up to the hype and MU finds itself in a position of having a player or two leaving early for the league?  If Buzz is uncovering that kind of talent, and the kids go to class and represent MU with class and distinction, bring it on.  If two flunk out and 3 are arrested, that is a different kettle of fish.

[Nukem2]

What, most posters don't agree with me?   


Your points are well taken, perhaps it's the quantity that has me more concerned. I don't recall this many kids in one class.  Typically there were 1, maybe two most years but this year seems to be the lion's share. Yes, big holes to fill and he's balanced the classes.  It's the right thing to do in order to get back to a balanced class scenario.  I think I've also said I hope this isn't the norm but the exception.  Do you think that will be the case?   If it becomes the norm, does that bother you?

Yes, it would bother me if it became the norm.  Now, buzz will recruit some JUCOs because of his background; but, I suspect he'll be more reliant upon HS guys in the future now that the classes are more balanced and team size issues have been addressed.

[Pago Warrior]

Interesting article I came across today that is somewhat related to this thread.
Bradley University's 09-10 recruiting class is the first time in Jim Les' 7 years of coaching the Braves that the entire incoming class are made up of high school players.  He trumpets it as a sign of stability and I agree.

While we've had our share of JUCOs under TC, our 09-10 class on the surface appears to be a sign of a shift in philosophy but that's mostly because of the unique situation we had with such an unstable and unbalanced class.

Having said that, moving forward I wouldn't be surprised if Buzz continues to scour the JC route more than what MU has been recently accustomed to but then again, that's to be expected.  Buzz maintains strong ties there and so long as his future JC recruits are more in the mold of J.Butler (both in terms of perceived character and proven basketball skills) then there's nothing to be ashamed of in that.

http://www.pjstar.com/sports/x303486676/BU-well-stocked-with-this-recruiting-class

[Lennys Tap]

Ready2Fly, I'm pretty sure I'm clear as a bell that I'm concerned about Stoneridge, not the student athlete. 

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14640.75

I'm not wild about all the Juco's, but it's tempered with the fact that three of them were already qualifiers out of high school. 

I hope this is a one-off situation.  I'd prefer to win without a potential perception of going a route that MU has not historically taken.   Perhaps that is not possible anymore, but I think it still is.  Fran's comments, at least some of them, have resonated with many people on this site as well as the Journal Sentinel site from what I've read.   Whether it's risky or not is a matter of opinion.  Some think it's not, others do.  Fran seems to think it does....I'm leaning toward that way if it continues.  Those fears will lessen if kids continue to graduate, no issues, etc.  But let's not be naive, if grad rates plummet, things start happening off the court, people will point to a different recruiting approach (fairly or unfairly). 

Crean took some JUCOs and prep school kids.  KO did as well.  So we are not without a history of taking some of these kids, but I don't recall doing so in this quantity.  Someone can set me straight if that's not the case.

I do think it's interesting that Cottingham and the powers that be are green lighting this.  Since Cottingham is buddies with Fran, that makes his comments even more interesting.  In essence, he's taking a swipe at his pal.  They must be comfortable with the approach or I can't imagine they would let it happen. 

All these kids seem like good kids (just keep them off YouTube  ) but to ignore the perceptions is sticking one's head in the sand.  If perceptions don't bother you, then this won't bother you. If perceptions are important to you, then the new direction can be a POTENTIAL red flag (we'll see). 

It's bad enough that you're concerned with with the perception of those who are ignorant of the facts, hostile to MU, or both. Now you're worrying about POTENTIAL perception problems. Believe me, you don't have to lecture anyone on the board that there will be problems if these kids turn out to be thugs and flunk outs. (James Matthews?) This is yet another example of the tired, repititious Chico's mantra: Don't talk about the incredible success Buzz and MU experienced today, let's talk about how today's success really belongs to TC or raises potential perception problems sometime in the future. I don't know where public relations and managing perceptions ranks in MU's mission statement but I suspect it pretty low. After all, the guy the university most tries to emulate had some major perception problems.

[PJDunn]

Interesting article I came across today that is somewhat related to this thread.
Bradley University's 09-10 recruiting class is the first time in Jim Les' 7 years of coaching the Braves that the entire incoming class are made up of high school players.  He trumpets it as a sign of stability and I agree.

While we've had our share of JUCOs under TC, our 09-10 class on the surface appears to be a sign of a shift in philosophy but that's mostly because of the unique situation we had with such an unstable and unbalanced class.

Having said that, moving forward I wouldn't be surprised if Buzz continues to scour the JC route more than what MU has been recently accustomed to but then again, that's to be expected.  Buzz maintains strong ties there and so long as his future JC recruits are more in the mold of J.Butler (both in terms of perceived character and proven basketball skills) then there's nothing to be ashamed of in that.

http://www.pjstar.com/sports/x303486676/BU-well-stocked-with-this-recruiting-class

It is nice to see that the above board approach to college recruiting is "playing well in Peoria".

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yes, it would bother me if it became the norm.  Now, buzz will recruit some JUCOs because of his background; but, I suspect he'll be more reliant upon HS guys in the future now that the classes are more balanced and team size issues have been addressed.

I think we are basically on the same page, I'm just more of a nervous nellie then you are overall.     It's been so long since MU was relevant again nationwide (i.e....people in California have actually heard of us again) that I'm hoping we can sustain the fine reputation of the basketball program, the school, etc on a national basis.  Too many people have worked too hard over the last two decades, through many hard times, to see that go by the way side.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Food for thought:

Let's say another Big East private school (say ND or Depaul) lost a coach and one year later brought in the following recruiting class:

PG - Junior Cadougan (LOI) - Small school, some people could consider it a "basketball factory" if they just looked on the surface (yes, I know Junior is a great student, I'm just looking on the surface for argument's sake)
SG - Dwight Buycks (LOI) - Junior College player
SG - Darius Johnson-Odom (verbal) - Junior College player
SF - Erik Williams (LOI) - High school senior
PF - Jeronne Maymon (LOI) - High school senior
PF - Brett Roseboro (LOI) - High school senior
C -  Youssoupha Mbao (LOI) - Prep School at a small school that has had some questionable academics in the past

2010 Verbal Commitments
SG - Aaron Bowen- High school junior
PF/C - Monterale Clark - 2 year JC player who also transferred a couple of times in high school.

I guarantee you that we would all be impressed with the talent that ND or Depaul was bringing in, but would also be skeptical of who these kids really are.

I still trust that Buzz and MU are doing the right thing, but I'm not surprised by the reactions of MU fans and the rival fans.

I'm very optimistic for the future, but on the surface, this does look a little funky. We can admit that, right?

[ChicosBailBonds]

It's bad enough that you're concerned with with the perception of those who are ignorant of the facts, hostile to MU, or both. Now you're worrying about POTENTIAL perception problems. Believe me, you don't have to lecture anyone on the board that there will be problems if these kids turn out to be thugs and flunk outs. (James Matthews?) This is yet another example of the tired, repititious Chico's mantra: Don't talk about the incredible success Buzz and MU experienced today, let's talk about how today's success really belongs to TC or raises potential perception problems sometime in the future. I don't know where public relations and managing perceptions ranks in MU's mission statement but I suspect it pretty low. After all, the guy the university most tries to emulate had some major perception problems.

And your same old tired rehash of false statements is getting old.  I have complimented Buzz many many many times over but you and a few others refuse to acknowledge it. I can put it in glowing font and you still ignore it.  I don't get it.   Yet when I make a comment that he was given a great team handed to him, you guys take that as a slap against Buzz...it isn't, it's simply a factual statement.  He was handed a great team.  And he did VERY WELL WITH IT (assume that last sentence is in a glowing font that you might notice and attribute to the poster).  Again and again, he did a very good job this past year BUT I will be thoroughly convinced a few years down the road (that is not a slam on him, it's the reality of the situation.  Too many guys have failed in years 3 - 5 just as many have succeeded....I'll wait to pass full judgment thank you very much, but so far so good.)


And while you're at it, why do you single me out?  There are many others here that have those same concerns about perceptions. I'd hate for your bitching to be so narrowly focused when there are other fish in the barrell for you to take a shot at.  I'd hate for you to have to remove your blinders.