DJO / state of the program article -- pretty interesting

[Badgerhater]

call it our MPS bailout plan. 

With the sewer that is MPS, I wonder how many really talented high school basketball players in Milwaukee have zero chance of qualifying for UWM, much less Marquette, if they don't go the JUCO route.  I have no qualms about taking Milwaukee kids (like Buycks and Clark) who had to go the JUCO route in order to overcome their crap MPS "education".

[ChicosBailBonds]

As long as these kids graduate and represent the university well, I'm fine with it.  By representing, I mean staying off the front pages of the paper for anything non-basketball related, sounding good on camera and in interviews (yes, that's important....see Ron Dayne as an example of how not to do it).  On the other hand, I can see the argument about the stigma because a number of Jucos at other schools (that have low grad rates to begin with) have helped to perpetuate the stigma.


As for the risk Crean took on the 4 mentioned.  I'd agree on Trend and Kinsella (though Kinsella was a DI player at Rice).  I don't agree it was that risky on Lott or Jackson. 

Jackson committed to Georgia in the SEC and then backed out due to their NCAA issues.  So he was in play for high majors.

Lott had offers from Creighton (a good mid major) and several Big 12 schools including Nebraska, Colorado and I think Texas A&M.   He was also a JUCO All American.  If I remember USC was also involved.

[Pakuni]

As for the risk Crean took on the 4 mentioned.  I'd agree on Trend and Kinsella (though Kinsella was a DI player at Rice).  I don't agree it was that risky on Lott or Jackson. 

Jackson committed to Georgia in the SEC and then backed out due to their NCAA issues.  So he was in play for high majors.

Lott had offers from Creighton (a good mid major) and several Big 12 schools including Nebraska, Colorado and I think Texas A&M.   He was also a JUCO All American.  If I remember USC was also involved.

As far as the JUCOs Crean signed ... Jackson, Trend and Lott were "risks" if you're working under the presumption (as is the author) that JUCO kids are by nature risky. All were two-year JUCO players.

Kinsella probably not, because he fully qualified prior to JUCO. In fact, the author uses that very logic to dismiss any notion that Kinsella was a risky JUCO.
But by employing that same logic to Buzz's recruits, Butler isn't a risk and Fulce and DBO are no more risks than Hayward, Sanders, Townsend or any of the other players Crean signed or recruited as a 5th-year prep player.

The bottom line, it seems, is that whoever authored that piece clearly has an agenda - which is fine - but also clearly has two sets of standards when evaluating the academic risks brought in by each coach.

[GGGG]

With the sewer that is MPS, I wonder how many really talented high school basketball players in Milwaukee have zero chance of qualifying for UWM, much less Marquette, if they don't go the JUCO route.  I have no qualms about taking Milwaukee kids (like Buycks and Clark) who had to go the JUCO route in order to overcome their crap MPS "education".

If a talented basketball player from MPS can get into UWM, they certainly can get into MU.  No offense, but I think the only qualification for our basketball players is that they qualify from an NCAA point of view.  Has MU recently, or even ever, denied a basketball recruit using standards higher than that?  I think we'd be naive to think so.

[MR.HAYWARD]

As far as the JUCOs Crean signed ... Jackson, Trend and Lott were "risks" if you're working under the presumption (as is the author) that JUCO kids are by nature risky. All were two-year JUCO players.

Kinsella probably not, because he fully qualified prior to JUCO. In fact, the author uses that very logic to dismiss any notion that Kinsella was a risky JUCO.
But by employing that same logic to Buzz's recruits, Butler isn't a risk and Fulce and DBO are no more risks than Hayward, Sanders, Townsend or any of the other players Crean signed or recruited as a 5th-year prep player.

The bottom line, it seems, is that whoever authored that piece clearly has an agenda - which is fine - but also clearly has two sets of standards when evaluating the academic risks brought in by each coach.

+100000000000000000000000000

when the author and Chicos( big surprise) have an agenda recruits of the exact same circumsatnce have two completely different qualities and "risks".    i think chicos is still upset his team didnto get Darius Smith and that we got DJO while they are stuck with Jeremiah rivers.  Also since Buzz's Jucos are big time and Creans sucked, Buzz's will now ruin the school.  Thinly veiled agenda

[Nukem2]

Fulce wasn't a qualifier out of HS, otherwise he would have gone to Texas A&M.  He spend a post grad year at a Prep School and was then a qualifier.

Same type of thing for Johnson-Odom.  He was part of the class of 2007 out of high school and was not a qualifier.  His year at Patterson was a Prep year, not his senior year.

Picky, picky,.  The point is that he did not have to go to a JUCO.  He made a decision after Buzz left UNO to not stay with UNO and follow Buzz or open his horizons.  There are tons of prep school guys (including those successfully recruited by TC) who had 5th years at prep schools.

[Pakuni]

If a talented basketball player from MPS can get into UWM, they certainly can get into MU.  No offense, but I think the only qualification for our basketball players is that they qualify from an NCAA point of view.  Has MU recently, or even ever, denied a basketball recruit using standards higher than that?  I think we'd be naive to think so.

Plenty of talented MPS players have had little or no trouble getting into UW (see: Carl Marcus Landry, Boo Wade, Freddie Owens to name a few) over the years.
So it can't be that bad. We know UW holds its prospective student-athletes to exceptionally high standards.

[muwarrior87]

Plenty of talented MPS players have had little or no trouble getting into UW (see: Carl Landry, Boo Wade, Freddie Owens to name a few) over the years.
So it can't be that bad. We know UW holds its prospective student-athletes to exceptionally high standards.

Not to nitpick but I am guessing you mean Marcus? Carl went to Purdue and is now with the Rockets.

[bma725]

Not to nitpick but I am guessing you mean Marcus? Carl went to Purdue and is now with the Rockets.

He must, because Carl actually needed to go the JUCO route to qualify for Purdue.

[humanlung]

Hey Wizard,  I hate to contradict you but if I remember right, Piano Bob Dukiet had two guys who were denied adnission - Corey Floyd and ????.  Tried to get them into the Communications program at the last minute and it didn't go over too well with the Dean (again, if I remember right).

[bma725]

Hey Wizard,  I hate to contradict you but if I remember right, Piano Bob Dukiet had two guys who were denied adnission - Corey Floyd and ????.  Tried to get them into the Communications program at the last minute and it didn't go over too well with the Dean (again, if I remember right).

Shawn Kelly?

And technically, if you believe Crean the same thing happened to Damien Saunders.

[mu_eyeballs]

You forgot Keith Stewart, Shane Littles, Alton Mason and Zack McCall.
Upstanding scholar athletes, every one of them.

And nothing is more fun than cheering on a team in hopes they can secure an NIT bid ... maybe even make a run all the way to Madison Square Garden.
Yep. Those days were a blast.

I loved Zack McCall...the little microwave that he was, but didn't he get busted for pot before the NCAAs.  I think that might push him down a few notches in my book

[Pakuni]

Not to nitpick but I am guessing you mean Marcus? Carl went to Purdue and is now with the Rockets.

Yes. My bad. I fixed it.

[Nukem2]

If Liam's Canadian school was a "JUCO" as a two year school not awarding 4 year degrees, why would Liam have had to sit out this past season?  Something does not add up here.

[tower912]

Wasn't that explained earlier?

[bma725]

If Liam's Canadian school was a "JUCO" as a two year school not awarding 4 year degrees, why would Liam have had to sit out this past season?  Something does not add up here.

Because the Canadian educational system is totally different than the American system and the NCAA recognizes that and deals with it accordingly.

[rocky_warrior]

Liam's particular school doesn't offer bachelors degree, they have post secondary education like prep school, and then the 2 or 3 year diploma programs.  Further, if you look at the OCAA, you'll see that the conference is very diverse and has both colleges(or JUCO) playing against Universities.

Fair enough.  And I know you understand this, but to clarify it for others, Duram College is nothing like a basketball mill, or even many small US Junior College.  They have over 6,000 students, 3 campuses, and a graduation rate of 67%. **

http://www.durhamcollege.ca/EN/main/about.php

** Compare that to Marquette with a 4 year graduation rate of 57%, 5 year rate of 77%, and 6 year rate of 78%.

[ChicosBailBonds]

+100000000000000000000000000

when the author and Chicos( big surprise) have an agenda recruits of the exact same circumsatnce have two completely different qualities and "risks".    i think chicos is still upset his team didnto get Darius Smith and that we got DJO while they are stuck with Jeremiah rivers.  Also since Buzz's Jucos are big time and Creans sucked, Buzz's will now ruin the school.  Thinly veiled agenda

No agenda Blackswan.  I didn't even read the article (I should have as I understand Pakuni's point much better now...I thought he was referencing risk based on quality of the player, but that wasn't the case).  And if you read what I wrote yesterday, I'm very excited about this kid and Buzz signing him (perhaps you missed that so let me restate it).  Sounds like a great get, which I also said yesterday.  I do understand the stigma argument, however, because that perception does exist as many schools who go the JUCO route. UNLV was notorious for it for many years as was OU and others. 

By the way, welcome back....did you enjoy your time off?

[4everwarriors]

Shawn Kelly?

And technically, if you believe Crean the same thing happened to Damien Saunders.

Crean's the one guy I never believe.

[GGGG]

Hey Wizard,  I hate to contradict you but if I remember right, Piano Bob Dukiet had two guys who were denied adnission - Corey Floyd and ????.  Tried to get them into the Communications program at the last minute and it didn't go over too well with the Dean (again, if I remember right).

OK, so there you go.  20 years ago.  And Damien Saunders.

But my point is that MU has no higher standards than UWM does for basketball players.  If we have a top recruit, we are going to get him in if he passes through the clearinghouse.

[VegasWarrior77]

I was speaking with my friend yesterday who's a die hard Maryland fan (and closely following the recruitment of Lance Stephenson) and I mentioned that MU just signed a major JUCO guard.  We were talking about graduation rates and how proud I am that Marquette has a 100% graduation rate.  He mentioned that he couldn't care less about Maryland's 10% graduation rate as long as they win.

Not hard to believe, but none of my UNLV friends here in Las Vegas have ever talked about graduation rates!

[classof70]

You know another really sad thing about an article like this is how poorly an author like this reflects upon the graduates of MU.  He feels a juco will tarnish the reputation of MU, in contrast I feel an article like this and a person with an attitude like this does far more to tarnish my alma mater.

My guess to go the same generalizing discrimintory route of the author is that this author grew up in a two parent catholic houselhold in eaither SE wisconsin or NE illinois.  went to catholic schools, had his mommy wake him up every morning to ahot breakfast and drove him to school to avoid the bad people on the bus.  She did not work and his father a lawyer or fortune 500 executive made enough for them to support their upper middle class suburban lifestyle. 

Right on.  I'll tell  you what these guys are much more mature than I was at 18-22.  As a few on this board would testify, I spent a large part of my college life in places like the Black Spider, the Gym, and then after graduation moved on to tending bar at the Stone Toad.    These basketball kids "work" there way through college, especially at an institution like Marquette.  They've all shown great  character.  To equate their attendance at a JUCO is just silly. 

[butchbadger]

sounding good on camera and in interviews (yes, that's important....see Ron Dayne as an example of how not to do it).

OK sorry I have to jump in here. 

Besides the obvious racial undertones, what exactly did Ron Dayne do wrong other than not speak the Kings English?  Yes sir no sir. Never thumped his chest when interviewed. Extremely respectful, courteous, self affacing,  and soft spoken.  Did him winning the Heisman and back to back Rose Bowls as well as breaking college footballs most prestigious record bum you out and rock your little world that much???? 

Did I miss something with the Jerel McNeal and DJ? Are they eloquent speakers and sound like they grew up in your all white suburb? 

Really a cheap shot at a great kid who did everything right, as did the Big 3.  You really need to check yourself if this is where you are going.

In the general frame of this thread I agree.  Not a big deal if they represent MU well.  But history shows Juco players are a much bigger risk.  Nice to see some honest discussion.

[Tugg Speedman]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Crean now signing a lot of Jucos at IU?

Both Crean and Buzz had unbalanced teams.  They used jucos to get back into balance.  Makes perfect sense.  From this point forward, let's see what they do.  I'll bet Buzz looks for more HS kids than Jucos.

[burger]

I have no problem with signing a fully qualified JUCO....Especially with a 3.2 average.....

Everyone deserves a shot!

and a certain person certainly deserves a shot if:

(now this is the best piece of hype that has been posted elsewhere by the gurus)

DJO is the 2nd best guard available behind John Wall in the Spring signing period.....

That got me pumped just a little....Think about that list!