DJO / state of the program article -- pretty interesting

[Marquette Gyros]

Just noticed this new blog crop up -- gotta love the Al quote that it takes its title from.

http://celebratethetemporary.blogspot.com/2009/04/friday-night-lights.html

Takes a look at the differing recruiting approaches between Buzz and TC... pretty interesting, to say the least.

[gjreda]

I couldn't agree with this post more.  I was speaking with my friend yesterday who's a die hard Maryland fan (and closely following the recruitment of Lance Stephenson) and I mentioned that MU just signed a major JUCO guard.  We were talking about graduation rates and how proud I am that Marquette has a 100% graduation rate.  He mentioned that he couldn't care less about Maryland's 10% graduation rate as long as they win.

I think we've always been a school that does things the right way and I think a lot of us want to be looked upon as a school that has high academic standards, but can still hang with those within the Huggins style of recruiting.  I hope Buzz doesn't turn us into what Cincinnati was/is.

[rocky_warrior]

A lot of incorrect facts in that blog.

1) Liam is not a Juco - His school was part of the Ontario Colleges Athletic Association, and hence the reason he had to sit out a year - it was considered a transfer by the NCAA.  If he was a JUCO, he could have played right away (barring injury...).

2) Butler was a full qualifier out of HS.  He went the JUCO route to get more attention - and it worked.

3) Fulce was not a qualifier - so went to Massanutten Military Academy.  He qualified out of there, but then Buzz left UNO, so Fulce went to JUCO to continue playing for a year until he found a college to play for.  So - he wasn't at juco because of grades either.

Overall, I think the authors concerns are overblown.  If these guys don't get it done in the classroom, they won't be at Marquette very long. 

[Pakuni]

It would be more interesting if the author had a clue.

" Rarely did Crean take risks on junior college players"

Trend Blackledge
Jamil Lott
Marcus Jackson
Mike Kinsella

Secondly, in criticizing Buzz's taking of "risky" players, the author is completely ignorant - I suspect willfully - of the many non-JUCO academic risks taken on by Crean.
Dwyane Wade was a partial qualifier.
Terry Sanders needed prep school to qualify.
Todd Townsend needed prep school to qualify.
James Matthews was a huge academic risk who couldn't last a semester at MU.
Lazar Hayward had issues with the NCAA Clearinghouse.
Damian Saunders, if you believe Tom Crean, couldn't qualify academically.
Trevor Mbakwe had issues with the NCAA Clearinghouse.

Yes, Buzz has taken a bunch of JUCOs ... several of whom went that route for non-academic reasons. But to write as if he's taking a vast amount of risk whereas the previous coach took very little is simply not accurate. If MU's graduation rate plummets to UConn levels, then criticize Buzz. For now, let's not assume MU won't graduate these kids as they have every other coach's kids.

[MR.HAYWARD]

This Juco Cincinatti correllation has simply been played to death.  A vast majority of the "thugs" in cincy's preogram were not JUCO's.  The bottom line is Huggins perpetuated or allowed a culture of thuggery.  If Buzz allows or perpetuates a culture of thuggery we will have and attract thugs regardless of whether they are Juco's or Not.  IS devendorf a thug?  well my goodness how could that be?  the beat goes on.  Has jimmy Butler conducted himself in anything but a class type manner on or off the Court since his arrival?  Kinsella, Lott, MarJax, etc.  were they rogues, did they not graduate?  

Actually Buzz has signed qulaifiers that were actually eleigible for D1 out of HS but chose the juco route to bette there offers.  Does this make them thugs?  

Bottom line Buzz will continue to have the proper culture at MU and will continue to recruit high character kids that graduate and represent the univeristy in a proper light regardless of whether they come form HS, Canada, Senagal, Juco or any points in between.  

Crean signed alot of Jucos too, to be now concerned with Buzz doin it is a joke.  Maybe if crean left some experienced talent outside the big 3 Buzz would not need to go the juco routein an effort to avoid a Depaul like season next year.

[Blackhat]

If these guys had rap sheets with the law they wouldn't be coming to MU.   Fulce, Butler, etc. seem to be top notch people.  Some people don't start out great in academia(not until 20 yrs old did I really focus on academics) as long as they are good people I have no problem giving them a chance at great academic guidance and a chance at a degree at MU.   It's not like they aren't giving back to MU and as DJO said he's going to leave his heart out on the court for MU to make you and me happy.  We need to give in return.  

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

For all the talk of the Mike Deane era being a downward spiral, it sure was a lot of fun to root for those teams...not to mention O'Neill's squads. Give me an undersized Cordell Henry or Faisal Abraham or Lovette or Wardle and I'll get behind them. McIlvaine, Key, Trevor Powell, Logterman, Pieper.

I'll always cheer on the Warriors, but some of this stuff is starting to sound like we're talking about another school. 5 or 6 JUCOs on one roster? What is going on?

Those claiming there is no stigma associated with JUCOs are either lying to themselves or delusional.

[Blackhat]

For all the talk of the Mike Deane era being a downward spiral, it sure was a lot of fun to root for those teams...not to mention O'Neill's squads. Give me an undersized Cordell Henry or Faisal Abraham or Lovette or Wardle and I'll get behind them. McIlvaine, Key, Trevor Powell, Logterman, Pieper.

I'll always cheer on the Warriors, but some of this stuff is starting to sound like we're talking about another school. 5 or 6 JUCOs on one roster? What is going on?

Those claiming there is no stigma associated with JUCOs are either lying to themselves or delusional.

Bring Back Mike Deane!!!!   

[Lennys Tap]

It would be more interesting if the author had a clue.

" Rarely did Crean take risks on junior college players"

Trend Blackledge
Jamil Lott
Marcus Jackson
Mike Kinsella

Secondly, in criticizing Buzz's taking of "risky" players, the author is completely ignorant - I suspect willfully - of the many non-JUCO academic risks taken on by Crean.
Dwyane Wade was a partial qualifier.
Terry Sanders needed prep school to qualify.
Todd Townsend needed prep school to qualify.
James Matthews was a huge academic risk who couldn't last a semester at MU.
Lazar Hayward had issues with the NCAA Clearinghouse.
Damian Saunders, if you believe Tom Crean, couldn't qualify academically.
Trevor Mbakwe had issues with the NCAA Clearinghouse.

Yes, Buzz has taken a bunch of JUCOs ... several of whom went that route for non-academic reasons. But to write as if he's taking a vast amount of risk whereas the previous coach took very little is simply not accurate. If MU's graduation rate plummets to UConn levels, then criticize Buzz. For now, let's not assume MU won't graduate these kids as they have every other coach's kids.

Dead on Pakuni. And to amplify on the Dwyane Wade situation, Crean convinced Fr. Wild and MU to do something it had NEVER done before - admit a "partial" qualifier. If Marquette hadn't "lowered its standards" there would have been no Final 4, and, likely no "AL" and no Big East. TC would probably still be our coach with little to discern him from the Deane era.

[MR.HAYWARD]

"I could hoop yo, all-American my age group yo
Grades bad, settled for a juco"

The authors opening quote indicates how stupid the rest of his article would be.  

Tom Crean signed 4 jucos that I can recall, three of them were non qualifiers out of HS.

Buzz has signed 5.  Liam is not a juco there fact boy.  3 of the 5 were full qualifiers and simply went Juco to improve their stock...if they wanted to play High D1 Bball one only has to review there offers out of HS versus where they ended up to see if it was a wise choice for them.  

this idiot makes the assumption that signing a juco somehow means they will represent the university in a poor light i am assumin ghtis means poor off the court behavior or by not graduating.  I have seen nothing from Creans 4 Jucos or Buzzes 2 so far to indicate any of his fears might come true.  Bottom line is the character of the kids and the expectations that they are held too.  Not where they came from.  Articles like this are so closed minded, discriminatory and racial that it makes me think the author comes from a juco himself.  

The guy is a pure idiot and is simply making alot more people aware of what those close to him assuredly already know.

[Pakuni]

For all the talk of the Mike Deane era being a downward spiral, it sure was a lot of fun to root for those teams...not to mention O'Neill's squads. Give me an undersized Cordell Henry or Faisal Abraham or Lovette or Wardle and I'll get behind them. McIlvaine, Key, Trevor Powell, Logterman, Pieper.

You forgot Keith Stewart, Shane Littles, Alton Mason and Zack McCall.
Upstanding scholar athletes, every one of them.

And nothing is more fun than cheering on a team in hopes they can secure an NIT bid ... maybe even make a run all the way to Madison Square Garden.
Yep. Those days were a blast.

[MR.HAYWARD]

You know another really sad thing about an article like this is how poorly an author like this reflects upon the graduates of MU.  He feels a juco will tarnish the reputation of MU, in contrast I feel an article like this and a person with an attitude like this does far more to tarnish my alma mater.

My guess to go the same generalizing discrimintory route of the author is that this author grew up in a two parent catholic houselhold in eaither SE wisconsin or NE illinois.  went to catholic schools, had his mommy wake him up every morning to ahot breakfast and drove him to school to avoid the bad people on the bus.  She did not work and his father a lawyer or fortune 500 executive made enough for them to support their upper middle class suburban lifestyle. 

Now in contrast a kid like Monterlle Clark never had a single thing like that growing up in inner city Milwaukee, yet has persevered thru ups and downs and trials and tribulations that would make the author wet his pants.  thru all this determination and god given talent he has earned an opportunity to attend Marquette University. 

Somrthing the author obviously feels he is not worthy of and something a university so distinguished as to allow himself to attend should never stoop to.  Wow, 4 years...probably 5 years of Mommy and daddy's money right down the drain.  pathetic that in to days day and age someone can spend that kind of time and money at MU and still have such bigotry.

[Norm]

Lenny,

MU admitted a Prop 48 kid in Gerald Posey in 1987. He had to sit out the year and then only played in about 20 games the next season before dropping out.

[NavinRJohnson]

I don't care about the Mike Deane thing necessarily, but I could easily get behind adding Key McIlvane or Lovette to the current roster.

[ceh]

"Has jimmy Butler conducted himself in anything but a class type manner on or off the Court since his arrival?"

Kind of interesting that a "JUCO" was sitting right besidesWes answering questions from the media after many of the the games.  IMHO that says alot about the kid and what the program thinks about him.  That article was "reaching" to take a shot at Buzz.

[nyg]

"Its an honor shared by few teams."  That is a significant statement and I hope this group of JUCOs keeps it intact.

[MUfan12]

And wasn't the McGuire line "Congratulate the temporary"?

[tower912]

In a perfect world, we get 3 top 50 recruits every year and keep them all 4 years.   Blah, blah, blah.   PRN, your hero TC's recruiting acumen and departure left MU with a very unbalanced team, both by position and class designation.  
1. In 12 months, Buzz has set it up so that he has at least 3 in every class so that he will be able to have balance classes in the future.  
2. Buzz came up through JUCO's himself and has an extensive network, apparently.
3. JB and Fulce were both eligible, just at JUCO to boost exposure (JB), or keep playing until Buzz landed somewhere (Fulce)
4.  Liam was late to basketball and playing lower division in Canada.  No academic or personal issues, just a late bloomer.
5. DJO is carrying a 3.2 and was just cleared to play D1 by the NCAA clearinghouse prior to the end of his first year.   That says something about his academics.
6.  Buycks grades were ok in high school, but lacked the core classes necessary.   Poor academic advising, not a dumb kid.
7.  Clark.   May be the only one of the bunch we are reaching on.   Screwed around in high school.   Supposedly has grown up and is doing ok academically.
Other than Clark in HS, (and who didn't do stupid crap in high school?) none have even a hint of scandal.
So, in anttmpt to balance out his roster and keep MU competitive in the short term, Buzz has outworked others and found these players.   If, in 5 years, Buzz is still relying on JUCO's, I will worry.

[bma725]

1) Liam is not a Juco - His school was part of the Ontario Colleges Athletic Association, and hence the reason he had to sit out a year - it was considered a transfer by the NCAA.  If he was a JUCO, he could have played right away (barring injury...).

That's not exactly true.  The Canadian educational system is quite a bit different, especially at the post secondary level.  In Canada, the term college is synonamous with what we would call a JUCO in the US.  Traditionally, Canadian "colleges" offer two or three year diploma programs, but not bachelors degrees. 

The difference between those schools and the US JUCO schools and the reason why he had to sit out is that in recent years a couple of Canadian "colleges" have started to offer bachelors degrees in addition to their two and three year degrees.  Because of that the NCAA made the decision to view those schools as four year institutions, and rather than look at each school individually, they lumped them all together. 

Liam's particular school doesn't offer bachelors degree, they have post secondary education like prep school, and then the 2 or 3 year diploma programs.  Further, if you look at the OCAA, you'll see that the conference is very diverse and has both colleges(or JUCO) playing against Universities.

[NavinRJohnson]

Simple fact is, if these guys don't work out, they'll be gone and so will Buzz.. That would obviously mean some rough times for the program, but there simply isn't much to suggest that's going to happen.

There is a couple of ways Buzz could have gone...he could have taken the Crean/Gillespie route and laid out the expectations that it will take time to build it back up, and more or less sacrifice the next couple years in hopes of future success. The other would be to refuse to sacrifice those couple years and find guys that can potentially help sooner than later and balance out the classes in the process to make up for the recruiting sins of the past.

He obviously chose that latter.  Damned if you do damned if you don't I guess. He brings in JUCO's to try to make the team better and he gets criticized for it. If he doesn't do that and they go to the NIT the next couple years, he gets criticized for that.

As I have already said, he and the Athletic Department deserve the benefit of the doubt until any of these guys fail to meet the requirements placed upon them. If these guys all are pulled from the JUCO ranks and end up with degrees from Marquette University, well I would call that an extremely good thing.

[Nukem2]

One thought on Darius Johnson-Odom.  He really is sthe same as Fulce and Butler in being qualifiers out of HS.  Seems that the NCAA clearinghouse took a long time to clear DJO.  Remember that class work in a JUCO does not count towards being "cleared".  That clearance was based upon his HS work in NC through his junior season and his senior classwork at The Patterson School.  So, he was forced into playing at a JUCO to avoid missing a season and a year of post-HS school work.  As such, DJO (as well as Fulce & Butler) is not your typical JUCO and his 3.2 gradepoint bears that out.  The only true JUCOs for MU are Buycks and Clark.  And, those are both local kids.  Buycks narrowly missed qualifying due to bad academic advice on one course at Bay View HS.  In the end, Clark (who reportedly had a lot of academic issues in his Milwaukee HS's) is the only true traditional JUCO-type player (and he is not here yet). 

[NavinRJohnson]

(and he is not here yet). 

An excellent point.

[Blackhat]

call it our MPS bailout plan. 

[bma725]

One thought on Darius Johnson-Odom.  He really is sthe same as Fulce and Butler in being qualifiers out of HS.  Seems that the NCAA clearinghouse took a long time to clear DJO.  Remember that class work in a JUCO does not count towards being "cleared".  That clearance was based upon his HS work in NC through his junior season and his senior classwork at The Patterson School.  So, he was forced into playing at a JUCO to avoid missing a season and a year of post-HS school work.  As such, DJO (as well as Fulce & Butler) is not your typical JUCO and his 3.2 gradepoint bears that out. 

Fulce wasn't a qualifier out of HS, otherwise he would have gone to Texas A&M.  He spend a post grad year at a Prep School and was then a qualifier.

Same type of thing for Johnson-Odom.  He was part of the class of 2007 out of high school and was not a qualifier.  His year at Patterson was a Prep year, not his senior year.

[Brewtown Andy]

An excellent point.

And to further that point, Clark won't be in a MU uni for another 18 months.