New Orleans fans "feel sorry for MU players"

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't agree with them, they are jilted lovers and treat Buzz like many here treat Crean.  Nevertheless, interesting psychology at work.


http://forums.neworleans.com/showthread.php?t=2749

[wermarquette]

wow after reading some of the other threads those guys really hate buzz and monarch (buzzard and mini-buzzard)

[mugrack]

UNO has a basketball team?

Who cares what they say.

[CAINMUTINY]

+1

I could care less about what a second rate (which is being incredibly generous) thinks about our current and their former head coach.  Buzz has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he's a solid coach and while many people may not like his approach in respect to timeouts, his bench management has been phenomenal by anyones standards.

[Pakuni]

I'd venture to guess the feeling is mutual.

But thanks for the monthly update on what New Orleans fans have to say about Buzz.

[MR.HAYWARD]

Who else in the world would make that post but chicos??  For no other reason but to illustrate we are acting the same way about his lover.  Expect more posts like this from this loser since IU's season is over.

[Coach Norman Dale]

I could care less about what a second rate . . .

I cannot help myself:  It is my pet peeve, and no offense intended, but my one man fight to eradicate the illogical phrase must go on --------> The phrase is "I could NOT care less"!  Please think about it.   

[The Lens]

Who else in the world would make that post but chicos??  For no other reason but to illustrate we are acting the same way about his lover.  Expect more posts like this from this loser since IU's season is over.

IU's season is over?  You mean he can't get the NIT to bring Western Michigan to Bloomington?

[romey]

I cannot help myself:  It is my pet peeve, and no offense intended, but my one man fight to eradicate the illogical phrase must go on --------> The phrase is "I could NOT care less"!  Please think about it.   

Another one:  It's "a lot" not alot.  No such word, unless you're misspelling "allot."  Sorry, it's the MU Journalism degree making me do it.

[RawdogDX]

+1

I could care less about what a second rate (which is being incredibly generous) thinks about our current and their former head coach.  Buzz has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he's a solid coach and while many people may not like his approach in respect to timeouts, his bench management has been phenomenal by anyones standards.

Really, by winning some regular season games with three 4th year starters and one 3rd year starter Buzz has 'PROVED' that he is a solid coach?  Bench management?  Phenomenal?  You mean not playing anyone but butler or acker? Sounds really hard. 
I like buzz and agreethat he looks like he'll be solid.  But to insinuate that it would be unreasonable to think that buzz has some work to do before he 'Proves' it is crazy.

Has he proved he can recruit a winning team?
Has he proved he can develop young players?  (Like these young big men that everyone is so impressed with, if crean brought a 7 foot canadian hockey player to inidiana everyone on this board would be making fun of him)
Has he proved he can out coach anyone?
Did we win a single game this season we shouldn't have won?  (He hasn't even shown that he can pull an upset.)
Has he proved he can overcome the loss of a key player late in the season? (that one is a bit unfair, i know.)

If i'm ever accused of a crime i would not want someone with your definition of a reasonable doubt on my jury.

[MuMark]

Hasn't Buzz been here long enough that we can evaluate him based on our own perceptions as opposed to what New Orlean's fans think of him?

I wonder what Siena fans thought of Mike Deane?

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I wonder what Siena fans thought of Mike Deane?

Belmont Abbey and Al? ;-)

[Lennys Tap]

Really, by winning some regular season games with three 4th year starters and one 3rd year starter Buzz has 'PROVED' that he is a solid coach?  Bench management?  Phenomenal?  You mean not playing anyone but butler or acker? Sounds really hard. 
I like buzz and agreethat he looks like he'll be solid.  But to insinuate that it would be unreasonable to think that buzz has some work to do before he 'Proves' it is crazy.

Has he proved he can recruit a winning team?
Has he proved he can develop young players?  (Like these young big men that everyone is so impressed with, if crean brought a 7 foot canadian hockey player to inidiana everyone on this board would be making fun of him)
Has he proved he can out coach anyone?
Did we win a single game this season we shouldn't have won?  (He hasn't even shown that he can pull an upset.)
Has he proved he can overcome the loss of a key player late in the season? (that one is a bit unfair, i know.)

If i'm ever accused of a crime i would not want someone with your definition of a reasonable doubt on my jury.




To answer your questions:
1.Asking if someone has proven he can do something he has not been given the opportunity to do is to ask the impossible. Doesn't get any more biased or unfair than that.
2.Jimmy Butler was viewed as a wasted scholarship by many of those who saw him in November and December. He has developed into a key contributor who plays big minutes. To say he has "developed" under Buzz is an understatement.
3.Again, asking if anyone has "proven" he can out coach anyone strikes me as unfair. He has beaten Bo Ryan, Bob Huggins, John Thomson III (twice} and Jay Wright. Can I "prove" he outcoached these guys? No more than you can "prove" he was outcoached in our losses.
4.Yes. We upset Notre Dame and Geogetown on the road this year. Please don't say that YOU don't consider these upsets. The professionals in Las Vegas qualify as expert witnesses on this subject. You don't.
5.As you say, this is another unfair question. I don't recall Bob Knight, Al McGuire or even the great TC doing this. Does it diminish their careers?

Your agenda is as clear as your bias, but dissing Buzz by asking him to prove the unproveable represents a new low point in these discussions.

[RaleighWarrior]

Another one:  It's "a lot" not alot.  No such word, unless you're misspelling "allot."  Sorry, it's the MU Journalism degree making me do it.

what year romey?

[pbiflyer]

Really, by winning some regular season games with three 4th year starters and one 3rd year starter Buzz has 'PROVED' that he is a solid coach? 

yeah, you're right. Easy to win with experienced talented players. Just ask John Thompson III or Mike Brey. After all, we were predicted to finish behind them, with all their talent.

[romey]

1983 (old guy here)

[GGGG]

I think the key phrase was "beyond a reasonable doubt."  I have been pleased with what I have seen, but until he can recruit and win with his guys at this level, then I have my doubts...and they certainly are reasonable.  The coaching ranks are filled with coaches who have stepped into good situations only to fritter it away in a few years.  I hope Buzz isn't *that* coach, but I'm sure people felt positive about coahes like Steve Lavin at one point too.

[RawdogDX]

normally when I'm this annoyed with someone's inability to understand a post I count to ten before responding, but I'm in a hurry.

To answer your questions:
1.Asking if someone has proven he can do something he has not been given the opportunity to do is to ask the impossible. Doesn't get any more biased or unfair than that.  - my point was that he hasn't done it YET!!! I wasn't ASKING HIM TO DO ANYTHING or saying that he should have.
2.Jimmy Butler was viewed as a wasted scholarship by many of those who saw him in November and December. He has developed into a key contributor who plays big minutes. To say he has "developed" under Buzz is an understatement.
- Find a person who was saying Butler was a wasted scholarship in December.  I never saw that, do some searches, find it and i'll send you a dollar by paypal.  And one player having two good games doesn't prove a future trend.
3.Again, asking if anyone has "proven" he can out coach anyone strikes me as unfair. He has beaten Bo Ryan, Bob Huggins, John Thomson III (twice} and Jay Wright. Can I "prove" he outcoached these guys? No more than you can "prove" he was outcoached in our losses.  - No, there are times when a superior game plan overcomes another team's superior talent.  I can't think of a game where that was true this season.  I think all opportunities happened after dj was gone.  I bet that you could think of a few games where Crean was 'outcoached'
4.Yes. We upset Notre Dame and Geogetown on the road this year. Please don't say that YOU don't consider these upsets. The professionals in Las Vegas qualify as expert witnesses on this subject. You don't.
Oh please, do you know the lines on those games?  As someone who lives in vegas and spends 10-20 hours a week in a casino I can tell you that a 5 point dog winning a game doesn't count as an upset.
5.As you say, this is another unfair question. I don't recall Bob Knight, Al McGuire or even the great TC doing this. Does it diminish their careers?
I was asking what he has done to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was a good coach, he had an opportunity to do this and didn't..

Your agenda is as clear as your bias, but dissing Buzz by asking him to prove the unproveable represents a new low point in these discussions.

Oh, my agenda is clear is it?  Pray tell what do you think it is?  If you think it's:  To wait a few years and then evaluate Buzz after seeing him work with his own team. You are correct.  Yeah that makes me a huge dick.
BIAS?  That poster said beyond a reasonable doubt, I brought up reasons for a reasonable doubt, doubt of something that I THINK IS TRUE.  That isn't bias, did you go to MU? Do you understand what critical thinking is?

A new low point?  Seriously.  That post was a new low point?  Someone comes on here and says we should fire the guy but I'm actually lower than him because I said that I THINK he's good but think that he still has some work to do to PROVE IT?  Stupid.

I'm sorry that it takes more than ONE season (in which no 'special' wins occurred) TO PROVE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. You are f'ing insane if you think that post showed any sort of agenda or bias.  Stop polishing buzz's nob for a second and try and understand what posters are saying.  I wasn't saying that he SHOULD have proved any of that.  I wasn't saying that he had an OPPORTUINTY to.  And I certainty wasn't saying that he has proved that he wasn't a good coach.  I don't know why it would be unfair to say that a coach needs to recruit his own team and win some games that matter for him to be 'Proven.'

[MUSF]

To answer your questions:
1.Asking if someone has proven he can do something he has not been given the opportunity to do is to ask the impossible. Doesn't get any more biased or unfair than that.
2.Jimmy Butler was viewed as a wasted scholarship by many of those who saw him in November and December. He has developed into a key contributor who plays big minutes. To say he has "developed" under Buzz is an understatement.
3.Again, asking if anyone has "proven" he can out coach anyone strikes me as unfair. He has beaten Bo Ryan, Bob Huggins, John Thomson III (twice} and Jay Wright. Can I "prove" he outcoached these guys? No more than you can "prove" he was outcoached in our losses.
4.Yes. We upset Notre Dame and Geogetown on the road this year. Please don't say that YOU don't consider these upsets. The professionals in Las Vegas qualify as expert witnesses on this subject. You don't.
5.As you say, this is another unfair question. I don't recall Bob Knight, Al McGuire or even the great TC doing this. Does it diminish their careers?

Your agenda is as clear as your bias, but dissing Buzz by asking him to prove the unproveable represents a new low point in these discussions.

Now to address some of your statements.

1. The initial post that Rawdog responded to claimed that Buzz had "proven beyond a reasonable doubt," that he was a "solid" coach.  Rawdog is simply saying that Buzz hasn't really proven himself yet.  I don't think he ever stated that Buzz has proven he isn't a solid coach.  He is actually agreeing with you.  Buzz hasn't had the opportunity to prove he is a solid coach yet and so it is a bit of a stretch to claim that he has.

2. Who thought Jimmy Butler was a wasted scholarship?  Some posters on MUscoop?  What makes them credible talent evaluators?  Isn't it just as likely that the people who thought Jimmy was a wasted scholarship simply misjudged his ability as it is that Buzz took a borderline D1 prospect and turned him into a solid contributor?  If Buzz has that ability then why have we gotten nothing out of Otule, Fulce, and Hazel?  Again, I think it is safe to say the jury is still out on Buzz's ability to develop players.  Let's reserve judgement for a few years.

3. Again, Rawdog never asked Buzz to prove he could out coach anyone.  He simply pointing out one indicator of a "solid" coach and stating that Buzz has yet to display that trait.  

4. First off, calling ND and GTown upsets is at least up for debate.  Second, calling Vegas experts is a little bit of a stretch.  Are they right more than they are wrong? Sure.  Do they always know early in a season which teams are better than others? No way.  Take a look at the odds Vegas puts on some teams at the beginning of a season.  Vegas gets things wrong all the time, especially in college sports because there are so many teams to track.  To claim that the Vegas spread is the sole indicator of when a win is an upset is a little ridiculous IMO.  Any sane fan of college basketball would now agree that MU is clearly better than ND and GTown.

5. One more time, Rawdog didn't ask Buzz to prove anything.  He is simply pointing out that Buzz really hasn't proven anything.  Buzz has shown signs of ability and made some mistakes.  Rawdog's only agenda, if there is one, is to point out that Buzz has a long way to go before we can say that he is, without a doubt, a good coach.  

[MUSF]

I see Rawdog already came to his own defense.  I'll leave my post up just to pile on.

[The Lens]

Anybody know how what the fans of the University of New Orleans are thinking right now?  Specifically about Buzz.  Could someone post to it if they do?

Thanks in advance!

[MUSF]

Rawdog, you may have to pony up a dollar.

I do remember at least one poster claiming that we wasted a scholarship on Butler after a scrimage or an exhibition. 

I'm sure that person has years of experience in evaluating talent and his evaluation must have been accurate.  Therefore, Buzz took that waste of a scholarship and molded him into a solid player.  There is no way that some irrational MU fan saw one or two bad outings from a young player not used to playing at the D1 level and leapt to the conclusion that he was not worthy of a scholarship.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Anybody know how what the fans of the University of New Orleans are thinking right now?  Specifically about Buzz.  Could someone post to it if they do?

Thanks in advance!

If you go to the IU board, they reference our board often.  Wanting to know if what they see is part of something new or something that has been going on a long time at the previous place of employment.

But hey, next time Crean loses at IU, I'm sure we won't see anything about it here on this board......   

[Pakuni]

Really, by winning some regular season games with three 4th year starters and one 3rd year starter Buzz has 'PROVED' that he is a solid coach?  Bench management?  Phenomenal?  You mean not playing anyone but butler or acker? Sounds really hard. 
I like buzz and agreethat he looks like he'll be solid.  But to insinuate that it would be unreasonable to think that buzz has some work to do before he 'Proves' it is crazy.

Generally, you're correct. Buzz still has a lot to prove. That said, I do take issue with a few of your points down below.

Has he proved he can recruit a winning team?

I believe it's been stated that he recruited eight of the top nine players on last year's Texas A&M squad that won 25 games and came this close to knocking off UCLA in the second round of the tourney. This year's Aggies' squad has won 23 games and is projected as a tourney lock. Also led by players recruited by Buzz.
So, in that sense, the answer to your question is a resounding "YES", Buzz Williams has proven he can recruit a winning team.
Can he do it at Marquette? Remains to be seen. But it would be hard to argue he isn't off to a good start. Jimmy Butler appears to be a great find. The book is still out on Otule and Fulce. And next year's class is ranked in the top 20-25.

Has he proved he can out coach anyone?

See: Ryan, Bo.
See: Davis, Keno.

Has he proved he can overcome the loss of a key player late in the season? (that one is a bit unfair, i know.)

Very unfair ... but I would argue that, to a large degree, he has.
Whether anyone wants to admit it, this team is playing about as well - if not better - as one could expect given the circumstances. I think one only need look at what UNC has done without Ty Lawson to see how difficult it is to overcome the loss of a quality point guard, especially late in the season. Or how UConn fell apart in the tournament last year when AJ Price got hurt.

At Pitt, at Louisville and Villanova on a neutral court are all games that MU would have been an underdog and expected to lose with DJ. They were home dogs to UConn with DJ.
Despite not having DJ, they hung tough for 30+ minutes with Pitt and UConn and had legit chances to win at UL, vs Syracuse (who, you may have noticed, is playing pretty darn well these days) and against VU in the tournament. The fact that they've remained so competitive  is, first, a testament to the players, but also speaks very well for the coaching they've received. We may, fairly at times, complain about Buzz's tactics, but his ability to keep these kids focused, playing hard and not quitting when it would be easy to do so has been impressive, to say the least.
I understand that staying competitive is not winning. But staying this competitive against truly elite teams when you're playing without a huge component of what you're trying to do offensively and defensively is an achievement in its own right.

[MUSF]

Generally, you're correct. Buzz still has a lot to prove. That said, I do take issue with a few of your points down below.

I believe it's been stated that he recruited eight of the top nine players on last year's Texas A&M squad that won 25 games and came this close to knocking off UCLA in the second round of the tourney. This year's Aggies' squad has won 23 games and is projected as a tourney lock. Also led by players recruited by Buzz.
So, in that sense, the answer to your question is a resounding "YES", Buzz Williams has proven he can recruit a winning team.
Can he do it at Marquette? Remains to be seen. But it would be hard to argue he isn't off to a good start. Jimmy Butler appears to be a great find. The book is still out on Otule and Fulce. And next year's class is ranked in the top 20-25.

See: Ryan, Bo.
See: Davis, Keno.

Very unfair ... but I would argue that, to a large degree, he has.
Whether anyone wants to admit it, this team is playing about as well - if not better - as one could expect given the circumstances. I think one only need look at what UNC has done without Ty Lawson to see how difficult it is to overcome the loss of a quality point guard, especially late in the season. Or how UConn fell apart in the tournament last year when AJ Price got hurt.

At Pitt, at Louisville and Villanova on a neutral court are all games that MU would have been an underdog and expected to lose with DJ. They were home dogs to UConn with DJ.
Despite not having DJ, they hung tough for 30+ minutes with Pitt and UConn and had legit chances to win at UL, vs Syracuse (who, you may have noticed, is playing pretty darn well these days) and against VU in the tournament. The fact that they've remained so competitive  is, first, a testament to the players, but also speaks very well for the coaching they've received. We may, fairly at times, complain about Buzz's tactics, but his ability to keep these kids focused, playing hard and not quitting when it would be easy to do so has been impressive, to say the least.
I understand that staying competitive is not winning. But staying this competitive against truly elite teams when you're playing without a huge component of what you're trying to do offensively and defensively is an achievement in its own right.

I think you are over simplifying the recruiting question.  Can he recruit a winning team outside of Texas?  As a head coach?  Without Gillespie?  In the Big East?  Again, I don't think you can say Buzz has proven himself yet.

I have two issues with your out coaching examples.  One, he had a better team in both instances.  Does anyone think we are equal to Wisconsin or Providence?  Two, the sample size is awfully small to call it proof. Buzz was an unknown this year.  Who knew what his style or philosophy was going to be?  What will happen when other coaches become familiar with Buzz?  One more time, I think it is a little early to say he has proved that he can out coach other top coaches.

I hope Buzz turns out to be a great coach for MU but I am going to reserve judgement for a few years.  The arguments being made to prove that Buzz has proven himself are a little weak IMO.