For 4everwarrior

[MarkMiller]

I noticed every post you make is negative, particularly toward Tom Crean.

I also noticed you have a hidden email.

What's your story? Who are you? 

[4everwarriors]

for those who have read me in the past on Ahoya know my passion for Warrior basketball is relentless. I bleed Blue and Gold, hold two degrees from MU and also teach at my alma mater as an Adjunct Assistant Clinical Professor. I had the pleasure of being a student at Marquette when they were a perennial power, recruited some of the best talent in the country, claimed the National Championship and were orchestrated by a maestro. Everyone as passionate about MU hoops should be as fortunate.
When Tom Crean was hired, I like most fans, was ecstatic. Throughout his "honeymoon" period, there was no reason to doubt him. However, for me, things changed as he led the team into the FF vs. Kansas. There, on college basketball's biggest stage, he laid a gigantic turd. Had a week to prepare his team. Everyone knew the Jayhawks wanted to run, but Tom had no answer. It may be argued intelligently by some that the 2003 Warrior team should have won it all. Afterall, there were 3 future pros on the squad including #3.
Since then, I see very little to get excited about. The University has made a monumental commitment to the basketball program and pay the head coach very handsomely in kind. Results have been disappointing to me. They struggle to make the Tournament, players transfer, assistant coaches leave sometimes for lateral positions elsewhere, can't recruit BE 4 and 5 players, no identity on offense or defense, bizarre practices including tackling a Cincy dummy, etc.
In summary, I'd love Tom Crean to be successful at Marquette. In my heart of hearts, he's lost credibility. It's been 8 years now, I don't believe him or believe in him to get the job done. I hope I'm wrong.

[herboturbo]

What are your expectations year-in year-out for this team?

[Big Papi]

Maybe we should all post our "MU resumes" as I think it actually explains where ones point of views comes from.  I am not surprised that you are an old timer who lived through a great MU time period.  Unfortunately times change and we have not been an elite basketball program since the late 70s.  That was over 25 years ago.  Instead we got stuck with Hank, Rick and Bob.  All of them helping us down that slippery slope of mediocrity that I thought we would never get out of.

My passion for Warrior basketball is also relentless. I also bleed Blue and Gold, hold one degree from MU.  I am young enough where I only have faint recollections of Hank's teams when we really were not a perennial power and only recruited a very few of the best talent in the country. I guess I was not fortunate for 70s but I am fortunate for the 2000s.

I was not ecstatic that we hired Tom Crean.  However, I have seen a huge improvement in our basketball program from the time Crean was hired to this day.  I guess some honeymoon periods last longer than others.  While we did get blown out by Kansas, I am extremely grateful that MU made it to another Final Four.  Never in my wildest dreams did I think we would ever get there again.  I have some incredible memories at Indianapolis and Minneapolis that I will never ever forget.  I guess for some we would have been better off to what lose in the first round.  Yes we had a week to prepare for Kansas. Yes everyone knew the Jayhawks wanted to run but so did we and no Tom did not have any answers for us not being able to hit the broad side of the barn that night.  Sh*t happens but considering the depths we came from I would go through it again in a heart beat.  Yes, it may be argued intelligently by some that the 2003 Golden Eagle team had the potential to win it all but Syracuse, Texas and Kansas could argue intelligently by some that they deserved to win it all too. Afterall, Syracuse, Texas and Kansas all were ranked as high or higher than us and all had future pros on their squads.  TJ Ford, Melo and Hinrich were all lottery picks.  Over the course of the last 8 or so years there has been a lot to be excited about. I dont care what anyone says, that Final Four run had a huge impact on us getting into the Big East.  It also had a huge impact on receiving the fund necessary to build one of the best facilities in the country.  It was Tom Crean who built this program back up by recruiting the likes of Merritt, Wade, Jackson, Diener, Novak, James, McNeal and Matthews.  I don't recall within the last 20 years when we had as many talented players come into this program as we have had during Crean's tenure.  O'Neill was great but he left the university as fast as he could and rumor has it that it was some of the alums that drove him out of here fast.  Why am I not surprised.  

The results have been disappointing recently but they have been disappointing because Crean has built this program back up and the expectations are much higher now.  We did finally make it back to the tourny last year and have a decent chance this year as well.  Players have transfered and assistant coaches have left but it doesn't look like it has left a black eye on the program.  we are still able to recruit high level players and assistant coaches  jump at the chance of coaching at MU.  Unfortunately Crean is not a magician.  At this point in time, he has not been able to outrecruit other programs for talented 4 and 5s.  That would be 2 of the tougher positions to recruit successfully as most of the elite programs and the NBA have a huge advantage over MU but I believe in time he will land some of those as well.  Mbakwe is a good one.

As far as bizarre practices go, I don't think there is a coach who has not suffered injuries at practice.  It is a physical game.  We are not in the era where players are allowed to shot uncontested setshoots from 15 feet away like they were in the 60s.

In summary, I am grateful to Tom Crean that we are in Big East, have crowds that break records for attendence in Wisconsin, have reached a Final Four in recent memory, have state of art practice facilities, have the ability to recruit players that are good enough to make it to the NBA and are talked about by the national media.  It sure has been a long time since that happened.  As far as i am concerned Tom Crean has not lost any credibility and you have reminded me to thank him once again the next time I see him for everything he has done for this fine university.  

[4everwarriors]

To expect the Warriors to be a perennial Tournament team would be the minimum measure of success given the resources and support afforded the head coach. In light of the fact that the University doesn't have a football program, I'm certain any achievement short of that goal would be considered disappointing by the administration and should be by all fans of the program also.

[MarkMiller]

Thanks for the reply.

However, your comment, "I'd love for Tom Crean to be successful at Marquette" rings completely hollow based on your "relentless" bashing of MU and in particular, Tom Crean.

Constructive criticism is one thing, but it seems to me after reading your posts you have a vendetta against TC.

[4everwarriors]

Contrary to your observation, my remarks are sincere. The difference, though, is that I don't see it happening.

[Marquette84]

Contrary to your observation, my remarks are sincere.

\

Does that include the remarks about preferring root canals to meeting Crean face to face?

[herboturbo]

The way you answered the question makes it seem that you want us to be a perenial top ten team, and quite frankly, it takes time for that to happen.  This is year 8 of Creans tenure and the fact that we are now and positioned to be a top 25 team for the next few years at least speaks pretty well to the job that he has done here.  Sure he has his problems and I would like him to win more tourney games (conference and ncaa) but we should see if those come with the next few years.  I really think people forget how bad the program was when he took over.  To get it to this point in only 8 years is a pretty good job to me.

Four years from now, if we get bounced each year in the first round maybe its time to re-examine things, but with the way our national recruiting has been opened up, I just can't see that happening. 

[ilovefreeway]

First of all, by definition there can only be 10 perenial top 10 teams and 25 top 25.  To be considered one of the top 25 programs in the nation is a big thing. 

As for my expectations, and I think they are high.  I want a program where a NIT bid is always considered a disappointment, a top 7 seed is expected, and every four or five years we have a team that can really do some damage.

Now a recap of where I come from as a fan:  I was at MU in the Deane years.  I was at games with the other 100 students who sometimes went and watched teams (after KO's talent left) of one good point guard and 4 clods give up 48 pts a game and score 52 (remember TC called the first midnight madness a lay-up contest).  Painful basketball to watch with little to hope for on the horizon.  TC came in a brought some life to a dead program.  Getting Merrit was a coup and he kept getting more hits then misses with little to offer HS kids except a weak conferance, a bad pratice gym, and an unproven coach.

To the people who want results now, lets look at TC's eight years.
With Dean's players = NIT
With Dean's and his = 1 nothing and 1 NCAA
With his own = 2 NCAAs (with a FF) and 2 NITs

Now we're in the Big East, have a great gym, great fan base and are getting 4* players from Alabama and NY.  TC has done a great job to get us back, the next step is keeping us here and he's on the right path for that.  Anyone who thinks he's lost credibility has either gone off the deep end or won't be happy unless we're in the FF each year.
   

[IAmMarquette]

To expect the Warriors to be a perennial Tournament team would be the minimum measure of success given the resources and support afforded the head coach. In light of the fact that the University doesn't have a football program, I'm certain any achievement short of that goal would be considered disappointing by the administration and should be by all fans of the program also.

Hear, hear, 4ever. However, as has been said, these things take time. Yes, Crean is in year 8 and has yet to land a solid big man -- save Robert Jackson, who transferred in -- but given where the program was when Crean started, I think the progress he has made is remarkable, especially considering MU does not have a football team for extra recruiting exposure.

I graduated from MU last spring. The Final Four run happened my freshman year, and, honestly, I knew little of MU basketball prior to the 2002 NCAA loss to Tulsa. Like you, and the others on this board, I bleed blue and gold. I am also disappointed that MU was unable to maintain the level of success achieved in 2003, but, for the time being, I still have faith in Crean. That does not mean, however, that he has a free pass. Like you said, the honeymoon is definitely over.

Crean has yet to prove to me as a fan that he can consistently make effective in-game decisions. He has yet to recruit a quality big man (not a high-potential project like Ouse). I would like to hear him say something negative about...anything.

If MU is anything but a perennial tournament team over the next 3-4 years, then I would agree that it is time for a change. The University has made too great an investment to accept anything less in return.

[ChicosBailBonds]

4Ever....you must have been one miserable SOB from 1978 until 2003.

[4everwarriors]

You're right. Those were some miserable teams. Hank was over the hill, Rick hadn't learned how to coach yet, Dukiet (OMG), Kevin was the best of the lot, but had his warts, and Mikey, 'nought said.

BTW, on your other reply, please add the Western Michigan debacle also. Thanks in advance.

[NavinRJohnson]

I think there are good points being made all over this thread, but I also want to throw in a comment relative to the man himself because I think it is relevant. Over the past 2-3 weeks, through his involvement in a situation I have been close to, I have been able to witness firsthand just the kind of person Tom Crean is. At a place like Marquette, I think all would agree, the "Community" is extremely important, if not the University's identity. Crean not only recognizes that, but embraces it. I have no doubt that as a basketball coach he is a first class SOB, but off the court he is very sincere in his concern for the MU community and its members. For a school like Marquette, I think that is extremely important, and I think there is a small handfull of coaches who would embrace it the way he has.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You're right. Those were some miserable teams. Hank was over the hill, Rick hadn't learned how to coach yet, Dukiet (OMG), Kevin was the best of the lot, but had his warts, and Mikey, 'nought said.

BTW, on your other reply, please add the Western Michigan debacle also. Thanks in advance.

I'm happy to add the Western Michigan debacle if you will add Kentucky, Duke, Cincinnatis, Wake Forest, Louisvilles, Indiana, Gonzaga, UCONN, Pitts, etc to yours.



Seriously, you're stuck in the 1970's my friend.  I hope it works out for you or you misery will continue for a long time.  No one dominates basketball like they used to in the 1970's and that includes the top programs of today.  Those days are long over.

Fortunately, the man you would prefer a root canal over then meeting, even made you smile one week in 2003 before we lost to Kansas depriving you of your rightful enjoyment of MU basketball.  At least one week you were happy.   

[Murffieus]

But the entry into the BE has heightened expectations to duplicate the 1970s-----the AD made a bold program expansion/upgrade here----so no longer is the mediocrity of the 1980 & 90s acceptable. The HC gets paid extremely  well-----when you pay someone a lot of dough, expectations of what you get in return excalate as well.

4ever----is rigtt on-----recent events have raised the bar as to what is now acceptable!

[Marquette84]

But the entry into the BE has heightened expectations to duplicate the 1970s-----

And what would that be based on? 

The fact that the Big East is filled with private Catholic schools that have duplicated our success of the 70's?

Why would the expectation be that we would be able to instantly outperform DePaul, Notre Dame, Providence, Seton Hall, Georgetown etc.?  NONE of those schools--many who have been in the Big East far longer than we have--have duplicated what we had in the 70's.

No, the expectations were wrong if they were that we would be one of the dominiant teams in the country.

We've stepped up our program so that we don't wind up like Loyola--a former National Champion who's lost all their glory and now plays like a low-major in a sucky league.

We've stepped up our program so that every few years we can have a season like 2003, or 2006--not because we're another Duke. 

We've stepped up our program so that our down years are still winning seasons that result in an NIT bid. 

We've stepped up our program so that we don't have the revovling door or stepping stone image to deal with.

Over the last decade, we're playing at a higher level than any of the schools that are our peers.  NONE of them have been to a final four--ALL of them have had losing seasons.

Our best years are better than their best--our worst years aren't as bad as their worst.

[Murffieus]

Well Syracuse won a National Championship a few years ago----UCONN has won 2 National Championships in the last 8-9 years-----just about every team in the BE has been to the final 4 since Al's time-----yea, ID say this is a program upgrade done with the objective of elevating the program-----when something is "upgraded or elevated" to a higher level-----expectations soar as well and justifyably so !

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Maybe it's semantics, but the Ewing-era Georgetown in the 80's certainly duplicated - or surpassed -- what Marquette was in the 70's.

[ChicosBailBonds]

But the entry into the BE has heightened expectations to duplicate the 1970s-----the AD made a bold program expansion/upgrade here----so no longer is the mediocrity of the 1980 & 90s acceptable. The HC gets paid extremely  well-----when you pay someone a lot of dough, expectations of what you get in return excalate as well.

4ever----is rigtt on-----recent events have raised the bar as to what is now acceptable!

And so Murff, please tell us what is "acceptable"?  Seems to me anything that gets us into the NCAA tournament and competing is acceptable.  We're one game into the conference season and already the "experts" are saying things are unacceptable.

I find that rather humorous.  Furthermore, when we were in CUSA do you not think we we didn't have high standards or expectations?  The only difference is the league is now better.  We've been in the league one year and finished in 4th place.  I'd say we have BEATEN expectations thus far when there was a HIGH percentage of people here that said we wouldn't even make the Big East tournament last year...how quickly the naysayers forget.

Personally, I have us starting the conference at 2-4 but finishing at 9-7.  We will see what happens.

[Marquette84]

Well Syracuse won a National Championship a few years ago----UCONN has won 2 National Championships in the last 8-9 years-----just about every team in the BE has been to the final 4 since Al's time

I believe I mentioned Catholic schools--neither UCOnn or Syracse fit the bill.

I think I also said no other coach has made the final four since Crean has arrived--but since you arbitrarily added quite a bit of time, let's compare:

Last final four:
Georgetown 84, 85--Thompson retired.
Notre Dame 78--Phelps retired.
DePaul 79--Meyer retired.
St. Johns 85 -- Carnesecca retired.
Providence 87--Pitino moved on
Seton Hall 89--Carlesimo moved on.
Marquette:  2003--Crean still coaching.

So, this season marks the the 17th anniversary of Seton Hall's final four trip. 19 years for Providence.  21 for St. Johns.  28 for DePaul.  29 for Notre Dame.  Not a single high school or college student in the country has first hand memory of any of these teams being in a final four.

Each of these programs (save one) has had a losing season in the last 8 years.

The bottom line is that not a single Catholic shcool other than MU has a current coach who has taken his team to the final four.  I believe that fact extends nationwide as well.

Now, perhaps some would be happier if we were like Creighton--playing in a lesser conference, reliabliy making the tournament--but haven't really made a deep run, and frankly winning the MVC isn't as impressive as a top 4 finish in the Big East.  

[downtown85]

Providence 87--Pitino moved on

Last time I checked, Pitino is still coaching in the BE.  He also, went to the final four at his current team a couple of years ago. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Maybe it's semantics, but the Ewing-era Georgetown in the 80's certainly duplicated - or surpassed -- what Marquette was in the 70's.

Not sure I agree with that.  Marquette finished the 1970's as the 2nd winningest team in the decade, trailing only UCLA.  2nd most wins, 2nd highest winning percentage.  A winning percentage so high I believe MU's percentage would have led 4 other decades.  Unfortunately for MU, UCLA was in the middle of their incredible run.

G'Town had a great 3 year straight run much like Houston did, but only nailed one title that I recall.

[ToddPacker]

 

Last time I checked, Pitino is still coaching in the BE.  He also, went to the final four at his current team a couple of years ago. 

You're not really following this thread then.  The point was about other Catholic schools, of which, UL is not one of.  I think the point was perfectly clear that Pitino had moved on from Providence, not from the BE.  Sheesh. 

[mu_hilltopper]

Man, is anyone else tired of this debate?  It comes up 6 times a year, and it never is "resolved".

The summary is, everyone has a different definition of success, and guess what, it's all subjective -- as are the moans (or praise) of those who critique those definitions.

Super duper?

Now, let's go beat the Orangemen.