A thought on Oversigning

[MarkMiller]

You mean like the Capital Times? Or maybe WIBA?

[dennycrane]

You mean like the Capital Times? Or maybe WIBA?

Are you saying the spin the UW company line? Do not allow for dissenting opinions? To some extent that is true. The audience for both outlets is too large and diverse to accept stories fed to them from the UW's athletic office. I would suggest you read some things on the football program from the last week or listen to call in radio on WIBA. It is not very positive.

The same could be said for Rosiak at the J-S. He would like to put a positive spin on all MU stories. The audience is too large and diverse to allow for only one sided coverage. If things should go bad his coverage would be expected to reflect this.

Internet websites are a different matter. The audience is smaller and more singular in their thoughts. Much easier to manipulate and control. In some ways the existence of this site reflects this. My impression is that in part this site is the result of dissatisfaction with other options. 

[MarkMiller]

I've lived in Madison long enough to know who spins the UW company line. And, you follow Marquette close enough to know who spins the MU company line. Most of the Madison sports media is very pro UW, which it should be. The one who doesn't seem to be afraid to ruffle a few feathers from time to time is Tom Oates of the Wisconsin State Journal. 

I don't have a problem with media members who are positive 90 to 95 percent of the time. I read Mike Lucas and Rob Schultz and enjoy the coverage of Matt Lepay on WIBA.

As for fan Websites, most put a positive "spin" on stories and information. The guys who run the sites at Illinois, Michigan State, Iowa, Indiana and Wisconsin do this on a consistent basis along with the guys who run MU sites.

People who run FAN websites can run them the way they see fit. If fans don't like the way they are run, they can start up their own Website (see Buckyville and BadgerBlitz).

Todd Rosiak does a great job covering Marquette basketball. His blog and stories are first rate. I think Schultz does a great job covering UW. But I don't see much difference between the two. Fact is, both UW and MU have enjoyed great success over the past decade or so and thus their coverage is largely positive.

[MuMark]

Gary Parrish comments on oversigning in college basketball.

http://gary-parrish.blogs.sportsline.com/mcc/blogs/view/6271764

[ChicosBailBonds]

Just out of curiousity -

Let's assume Crean some how masterminded this wonderful PR spin. What is so bad about the head coach wanting "a good spin" on his program? I just don't get the negative reaction.

Call him a used car salesman if you want to, but it takes a used car salesman to sell a used car. In this day and age, with recruiting being as cut-throat as ever (including tons of "negative spin" recruiting by other coaches), why wouldn't you want to always paint your program in the best light?

Crean was an over-rated recruiter. He was an under-rated, but not great, game coach. One thing is for sure though; the man was a great PR machine. No matter how slimy you felt it was - no matter how detestable you found his continuous self-promotion - it was something this program needed. Without Crean's "positive spin" on everything, including feeding positive information to the national media, to the local media outlets, and to the alumni base, I seriously doubt Marquette would have ascended to where it is today. Without all that self-promotion, we might just be DePaul.

I just don't get the complete digust with what the guy did. You can dislike the guy as a man, but you cannot deny the effect he had on MU hoops. The guy placed this program on the national map again. Deane may have been somewhat successful, with much less talent. KO, it could be argued, accomplished just as much as Crean did on the hardcourt and in the recruiting fields. But neither of those two created the interest in MU hoops, both locally and nationally, that Crean did. Crean accomplished that by tireless self-promotion.

My biggest worry with Buzz, over any worries about coaching, is whether he has the personality to sell this program on a daily basis the way that Crean did. When you are a small, private Jesuit school, you need the gears on the great PR machine constantly grinding away.

Ding a ring ding ding.   A small, private school in Milwaukee, Wisconsin is considered the boondogs fror 95% of this country.  You need someone to constantly prime the pump.  Make it bigger than life.  That's what Al did, that's what KO did, that's what Crean did.  All had their detractors but they all got it done.

Personality sells and has to at a place like MU.   We'll know in a few years.  Fingers crossed.

[The Lens]

Ding a ring ding ding.   A small, private school in Milwaukee, Wisconsin is considered the boondogs fror 95% of this country.  You need someone to constantly prime the pump.  Make it bigger than life.  That's what Al did, that's what KO did, that's what Crean did.  All had their detractors but they all got it done.

Personality sells and has to at a place like MU.   We'll know in a few years.  Fingers crossed.

KO, Al & TC all had to some degree build a program, reingorate the fanbase etc.  All Buzz has to do is win and he can keep the fan base.  TC, KO  & Al had to sell from day one b/c the product on the floor left a lot to be desired.  Buzz inherits a different program.  What he needs to do is obviously win but just as importantly keep recruiting on par or better than TC.  Deane didn't figure out recruiting until it was too late.  He lost a lot of KO's momentum.  If Buzz keeps recruiting like he is now, he doesn't need to worry as much about the selling.  Winning sells in Milwaukee (see 3 million fans at Miller Park in 2008 or constant sell out at Bucks games in 2001-2002).

[dennycrane]

I've lived in Madison long enough to know who spins the UW company line. And, you follow Marquette close enough to know who spins the MU company line. Most of the Madison sports media is very pro UW, which it should be. The one who doesn't seem to be afraid to ruffle a few feathers from time to time is Tom Oates of the Wisconsin State Journal. 

I don't have a problem with media members who are positive 90 to 95 percent of the time. I read Mike Lucas and Rob Schultz and enjoy the coverage of Matt Lepay on WIBA.

As for fan Websites, most put a positive "spin" on stories and information. The guys who run the sites at Illinois, Michigan State, Iowa, Indiana and Wisconsin do this on a consistent basis along with the guys who run MU sites.

People who run FAN websites can run them the way they see fit. If fans don't like the way they are run, they can start up their own Website (see Buckyville and BadgerBlitz).

Todd Rosiak does a great job covering Marquette basketball. His blog and stories are first rate. I think Schultz does a great job covering UW. But I don't see much difference between the two. Fact is, both UW and MU have enjoyed great success over the past decade or so and thus their coverage is largely positive.

Internet websites are specifically what I am referring to. They are run as those who operate them see fit. Some have little credibility because they lack objectivity. That can be the price they pay for access to the programs they cover? Most are not real journalists nor do they act as such.

[RawdogDX]

Just out of curiousity -

Let's assume Crean some how masterminded this wonderful PR spin. What is so bad about the head coach wanting "a good spin" on his program? I just don't get the negative reaction.

Call him a used car salesman if you want to, but it takes a used car salesman to sell a used car. In this day and age, with recruiting being as cut-throat as ever (including tons of "negative spin" recruiting by other coaches), why wouldn't you want to always paint your program in the best light?

Crean was an over-rated recruiter. He was an under-rated, but not great, game coach. One thing is for sure though; the man was a great PR machine. No matter how slimy you felt it was - no matter how detestable you found his continuous self-promotion - it was something this program needed. Without Crean's "positive spin" on everything, including feeding positive information to the national media, to the local media outlets, and to the alumni base, I seriously doubt Marquette would have ascended to where it is today. Without all that self-promotion, we might just be DePaul.

I just don't get the complete digust with what the guy did. You can dislike the guy as a man, but you cannot deny the effect he had on MU hoops. The guy placed this program on the national map again. Deane may have been somewhat successful, with much less talent. KO, it could be argued, accomplished just as much as Crean did on the hardcourt and in the recruiting fields. But neither of those two created the interest in MU hoops, both locally and nationally, that Crean did. Crean accomplished that by tireless self-promotion.

My biggest worry with Buzz, over any worries about coaching, is whether he has the personality to sell this program on a daily basis the way that Crean did. When you are a small, private Jesuit school, you need the gears on the great PR machine constantly grinding away.

Best post ever

[murambler]

Personality can try to sell any program, but winning is the be all, end all.  The prime example is Gonzaga.  It has many similar characteristics to Marquette - small school, small city, Jesuit, basketball-focused.  Yet, even in a smaller conference they remain in the spotlight with Mark Few, who isn't exactly the dynamic car salesman.  He wins games, the program wins games.  

Personality does not HAVE to sell any program.  Maybe to get the program rolling, personality helps.  But to keep it going, you don't need personality; you need to WIN.

[muarmy81]

Personality can try to sell any program, but winning is the be all, end all.  The prime example is Gonzaga.  It has many similar characteristics to Marquette - small school, small city, Jesuit, basketball-focused.  Yet, even in a smaller conference they remain in the spotlight with Mark Few, who isn't exactly the dynamic car salesman.  He wins games, the program wins games.  

Personality does not HAVE to sell any program.  Maybe to get the program rolling, personality helps.  But to keep it going, you don't need personality; you need to WIN.

Excellent point,
I was a Crean supporter and I'm very appreciative of what he did for the program but there's a reason that he had to rely on his PR skills...he wasn't the greatest in-game coach and in all honesty, he wasn't the greatest recruiter but he utilized his strengths and his connections to keep the MU program prominent.

[bma725]

Personality can try to sell any program, but winning is the be all, end all.  The prime example is Gonzaga.  It has many similar characteristics to Marquette - small school, small city, Jesuit, basketball-focused.  Yet, even in a smaller conference they remain in the spotlight with Mark Few, who isn't exactly the dynamic car salesman.  He wins games, the program wins games.  

Personality does not HAVE to sell any program.  Maybe to get the program rolling, personality helps.  But to keep it going, you don't need personality; you need to WIN.

Few and TC aren't really comparable, because Few wasn't the one responsible for getting the ball rolling the same way TC was.  When he took over, the ball was already in motion, Monson had just led them to an Elite 8 before bolting for Minnesota.  Monson and Dan Fitzgerald before him had won multiple conference championships and conference tournament championships in the 5 previous years.  Crean took over a team with a losing record.

Plus, Spokane is not like Milwaukee.  It's a much smaller city, and there's no professional sports around that you have to compete with.  After Deane's last few years, MU needed someone to get the program re-energized and bring fans back.  It needed the showmanship and all the tactics that TC brought that Deane was never able to bring. Gonzaga already had the fans because of the work that Fitzgerald and Monson had done.

[murambler]

Personality does not HAVE to sell any program.  Maybe to get the program rolling, personality helps.  But to keep it going, you don't need personality; you need to WIN.

Few and TC aren't really comparable, because Few wasn't the one responsible for getting the ball rolling the same way TC was.  When he took over, the ball was already in motion, Monson had just led them to an Elite 8 before bolting for Minnesota. 

I'm glad you agree.  Personality has a role in getting the ball rolling, but winning is what keeps it rolling.

[Pardner]

I'm glad you agree.  Personality has a role in getting the ball rolling, but winning is what keeps it rolling.

+1.  Fr. Wild is more charismatic than Dean Smith or Coach K.  Just Win Baby!

[ChicosBailBonds]

KO, Al & TC all had to some degree build a program, reingorate the fanbase etc.  All Buzz has to do is win and he can keep the fan base.  TC, KO  & Al had to sell from day one b/c the product on the floor left a lot to be desired.  Buzz inherits a different program.  What he needs to do is obviously win but just as importantly keep recruiting on par or better than TC.  Deane didn't figure out recruiting until it was too late.  He lost a lot of KO's momentum.  If Buzz keeps recruiting like he is now, he doesn't need to worry as much about the selling.  Winning sells in Milwaukee (see 3 million fans at Miller Park in 2008 or constant sell out at Bucks games in 2001-2002).

Well all Deane had to do was win, too.  He did for the first 4 years but attendance and pub went down, down, down.   Hank Raymonds won as well, but the program was not covered nationally like it was under Al.

I hope you're right.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Personality can try to sell any program, but winning is the be all, end all.  The prime example is Gonzaga.  It has many similar characteristics to Marquette - small school, small city, Jesuit, basketball-focused.  Yet, even in a smaller conference they remain in the spotlight with Mark Few, who isn't exactly the dynamic car salesman.  He wins games, the program wins games.  

Personality does not HAVE to sell any program.  Maybe to get the program rolling, personality helps.  But to keep it going, you don't need personality; you need to WIN.

Gonzaga is the only game in town in a state that isn't a basketball state.  MU is in a fairly big city and isn't even the most popular team in that city having to compete with UW-Madison.  MU is always going to have to do a little extra to get the casual fans to notice and the media. 

Winning absolutely is critical, no one is denying that.  But at MU, will winning be enough?  It wasn't for Deane in his first 4 years and it finally bit him in year 5 when he didn't have a winning record.

Again, I hope you are right.  But looking historically at MU, their most successful years have been with a coach who won and was dynamic (AL, KO, TC).  There were other years where they won, but it didn't sustain itself (Hank, Majerus, Deane).

[Pardner]

Well all Deane had to do was win, too.  He did for the first 4 years but attendance and pub went down, down, down.   Hank Raymonds won as well, but the program was not covered nationally like it was under Al.

I hope you're right.

Fact is Crean's attendance numbers rose and fell with his winning records/anticipation of his recruiting classes too.  Ebbs and flows there with KO's record.  Hank was caught between eras where sell outs where more important and where TV revenue took over.  While the pr helps for sure, nothing replaces winning and recruiting hype--as we see in the pro sports where manager or coach tunrover is correlated to win/loss records.  NFL coaches aren't even making it through half a season any more.  There were calling for Gillepsie's head early last year at Kentucky. 

[bilsu]

The article on MU recruiting Chicago stated that both Colvin and Smith probably will not decide to spring. Given that it appears only Snaer would cause MU to oversign.

[murambler]

Gonzaga is the only game in town in a state that isn't a basketball state. 

You're helping to prove my point, Chicos.  Gonzaga consistently draws national attention while playing in a state that isn't even a basketball state, in a conference that isn't even a power basketball conference, in a gym that is 3 times smaller than the Bradley Center. 

Marquette has a bigger population base to draw fans from, are a member of the best basketball conference in the country, and have awesome basketball facilities; the tools to sustain its success are in place.  All MU has to do is win.

Winning absolutely is critical, no one is denying that.  But at MU, will winning be enough?  It wasn't for Deane in his first 4 years and it finally bit him in year 5 when he didn't have a winning record.

Sure, Deane won his first 4 years but the apparent success was tempered by the fact that the majority of the wins were against lackluster Conference USA competition and a handful of unsexy names.  I don't know about some, but I would much rather be beating the likes of Syracuse, Connecticut, and Georgetown, rather than UNC-Charlotte, UAB, and Southern Miss.  Now, if Deane had turned MU into King of Conference USA (a la Memphis) and consistently competed for national championships, I think it would be farely safe to say that Marquette would have constructed its own Deane Dome.

[Pago Warrior]

Gary Parrish comments on oversigning in college basketball.

http://gary-parrish.blogs.sportsline.com/mcc/blogs/view/6271764

Almost foreshadowing to this story where Billy Donovan is running off players!
http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/11085408

It was stated by many others that oversigning is a fact of life in college BB.
Recruiting is the life line of a program and I like Buzz's approach with it.
Kids these days can be fickle and unless there's a signed LOI its unfortunately become common place to hear of kids backing out.  Add to that, coaches have also evolved/regressed when it comes to sticking with commits.  Its just the nature of the business these days and for better or for worse, Buzz and several other coaches are simply building in contingency plans for whatever may happen down the line when they over sign/continue recruiting/"run kids off"/etc....

[ChicosBailBonds]

You're helping to prove my point, Chicos.  Gonzaga consistently draws national attention while playing in a state that isn't even a basketball state, in a conference that isn't even a power basketball conference, in a gym that is 3 times smaller than the Bradley Center. 

Yes, but Gonzaga sticks out because they have no competition in the state.  They have an easier time rising to the top because of their God awful conference and the fact they are the only game in town.  MU is like Georgia Tech in many respects.  A very good program, but tough to get love in it's own city let alone regionally or nationally because of all the other things going on.

[dwaderoy2004]

Yes, but Gonzaga sticks out because they have no competition in the state. 

Lorenzo Romar consistently brings in top 25 recruiting classes to washington.  and with bennett staying at washington state, i would say Gonzaga actually has it tougher than MU in regards to recruiting in state.

[bma725]

Lorenzo Romar consistently brings in top 25 recruiting classes to washington.  and with bennett staying at washington state, i would say Gonzaga actually has it tougher than MU in regards to recruiting in state.

They may have competition recruiting wise, but part of what Chico's was talking about was competition for the entertainment dollar. 

Gonzaga has no competition in terms of vying for entertainment dollars within it's own city, at least not in the same way that MU does.  UW is in Seattle, four hours away, and most UW fans aren't as concerned with basketball as they are with football.  WSU is over an hour away, and isn't exactly a place with a large enthusiastic fan base.  The only major pro sports teams are in Seattle as well.  Gonzaga only has to worry about things like the Spokane Indians, a minor league baseball. 

And that's only the sports entertainment things going on, Milwaukee has a lot more cultural things going on as well.