A thought on Oversigning

[bilsu]

And despite his wonderful academic progress, let's also remember the summer threads that cautioned MUScoopers that Maymon may not qualify.
[/quote]

Buzz would still be recruiting Wilson, if he was worried about Maymon qualifying. The fact that he stopped recruiting Wilson should tell you that Maymon is going to make it.

[Marquette84]

I love how we can't speculate on individual players but coaches can over-sign. 

Also, shouldn't DJ be in Euro right now b/c his family is so broke, he has to go and b/c he's graduating in 3 years?

So what graduate program is he in this year and how did his family get cash?

Whoops, nevermind, TC left and so did the lies from his PR staff.

As I recall, this was nothing but pure speculation largely played out on this message board:

Example here:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=6938.0

And here:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=6152.0

I cannot find any articles quoting Crean about the possibility of James playing in Europe, citing family finances, or suggesting that he wouldn't be coming back.

Meanwhile, I found this interesting thread:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=7770.msg62897#msg62897

Care to elaborate on what specifically you meant?  Is this one of those "lies from his PR staff" as well?

[The Lens]

It was insinuated on certain premium boards by numerous posters including some with a lot of access to TC.  Did TC ever come out and say it?  No but many people said it for him. 

[Marquette84]

It was insinuated on certain premium boards by numerous posters including some with a lot of access to TC.  Did TC ever come out and say it?  No but many people said it for him. 

And it was insinuated on THIS board by YOU.

So are you part of the lie machine, too?

[The Lens]

No, I am though guilty of pointing out the absurdity of an all conf player leaving eligilbilty on the table.  I also said there is a difference btwn being ahead of schedule and graduating early.  I don't think I'm the only one who read about the DJ to Euro possibility last year and the speculation started by those who were in the know. 

[77ncaachamps]

And despite his wonderful academic progress, let's also remember the summer threads that cautioned MUScoopers that Maymon may not qualify.

Buzz would still be recruiting Wilson, if he was worried about Maymon qualifying. The fact that he stopped recruiting Wilson should tell you that Maymon is going to make it.

Good take. I just hope Maymon does qualify as the school year is about to reach it's halfway point in two months.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

No, I am though guilty of pointing out the absurdity of an all don't player leaving eligilbilty on the table.  I also said there is a difference btwn being ahead of schedule and graduating early.  I don't think I'm the only one who read about the DJ to Euro possibility last year and the speculation started by those who were in the know. 

DCK,

Just to be clear, you are unhappy with Tom Crean because of the speculation regarding DJ leaving early for Europe?

Not sure I'm connecting the dots.

[The Lens]

Yes. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

(shrug) ok.

I think you give Crean too much credit. I don't think he has the ability to control what people speculate or type on the internet.

He was oversigned last year (which is new to MU, but not new to the world of college hoops), so it created speculation on the internet about who would be gone.

[The Lens]

 so it created speculation on the internet about who would be gone.

Right, and some people in the know, who normally are very reliable sources of info speculated that DJ may go to Europe b/c he would a) graduate early and b) needed the money. 

Am I taking crazy pills, am I the only one who read this stuff last year?

[Marquette84]

Right, and some people in the know, who normally are very reliable sources of info speculated that DJ may go to Europe b/c he would a) graduate early and b) needed the money. 

Am I taking crazy pills, am I the only one who read this stuff last year?

The bothersome point here is that you're blaming Crean for something a) in which you were an active paritipant; b) was hardly secret; and c) lends itself to exactly the type of questions about financial need that arose.

Let's go back in time.  State, on this board no less, posted the following:

DJ needs the extra flow as HIS family recently got a little bigger.

Now there's a cryptic comment. I can't possibly figure out what he meant by this.

By its very nature, this wasn't a team secret known only to DJ and Tom Crean. My guess is that it was pretty common knowledge on the MU campus.

In fact, even YOU apparently knew all about it, becuase THIS was your reply to State (emphasis added):

I'm well aware. I still maintain his best move if he can't make the NBA is exhausting his MU eligibility.

Will & Dwyane made it work.

You were "well aware."  Interesting. 

In other words, you didn't just read speculation about Europe planted on a message board--you knew about were well aware of  the underlying reason for that speculation.

Let's face it, the questions raised were the expected response to the situation.  Consider ANY ordinary student in that same situation:  He has new family expenses.  He has enough credits to graduate.  He is certain to have a well-paying job within two months.  He has a chance--but no certainty--of a better job a year later.  There is a possibility that he might not have any job offers in a year.

Do you really think people in general AREN'T smart enough to raise questions on their own about whether that kid MIGHT be inclined to take a job right away rather than come back for another year of school? 

This wasn't the result of a PR campaign.  This was people asking the normal questions about a particular situation.

[The Lens]

SJS, you're proving one thing...you have a lot of time on your hands.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The search function makes these things rather efficient.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

SJS, you're proving one thing...you have a lot of time on your hands.

Awww... c'mon dude.

You can't pull this one again.

You've used that on me before.

Again, I realize you think coach Crean is a self-promoting a**. However, I think you are trying too hard to pin some stuff on him.

I don't think he can control the internet.

[nola03]

Awww... c'mon dude.

You can't pull this one again.

You've used that on me before.

Again, I realize you think coach Crean is a self-promoting a**. However, I think you are trying too hard to pin some stuff on him.

I don't think he can control the internet.

DK is a man of strong opinion. And he knows enough of the program to be strong in that opinion. His words don't come lightly.

To be fair, there was a pocket of posters who were mouthpieces for Tom Crean. And for 8-12 months, the party line (myself included) involving DJ did include many of the things DK wrote earlier in this thread.

On the interesting side, that pocket of posters also seems to have become a mouthpiece for Buzz so, in essence, they are mouthpieces for the Marquette program which is always a nice thing to see. In the end, it is MU first.

Then again, that would be expected with the closeness of Crean's hand in the transition to Williams.

[Marquette84]

DK is a man of strong opinion. And he knows enough of the program to be strong in that opinion. His words don't come lightly.

To be fair, there was a pocket of posters who were mouthpieces for Tom Crean. And for 8-12 months, the party line (myself included) involving DJ did include many of the things DK wrote earlier in this thread.

On the interesting side, that pocket of posters also seems to have become a mouthpiece for Buzz so, in essence, they are mouthpieces for the Marquette program which is always a nice thing to see. In the end, it is MU first.

Then again, that would be expected with the closeness of Crean's hand in the transition to Williams.

My biggest beef here is that DK suggested that it was Crean's PR staff that spread the comments about James, when it is obvious with even a little bit of searching that the type of comments posted are not at all surprising given the background of the situation.

As he readily admits himself, he knew about the situation, and even posted his own opinion--and frankly, it wasn't surprising given the background, and certainly it wasn't the result of Tom Crean's PR staff.

Finally, I have a small objection to your use of the word "mouthpiece."  I would prefer "Marquette fan."  I don't understand why so many here decide that being a fan means impugning every intention of the administration, the athletic department or the coaching staff. 

We've gotten to the point where merely stating the obvious (i.e James might have some incentive to leave after his junior year to play in Europe) becomes in the minds of some a nefarious PR plot on the part of Tom Crean. 

The norm around here seems to be that one must assume the worst intentions on the part of anyone officially with MU or else subject onesself to personal attacks.

I supported Tom Crean because I believe when he was the coach his goal was to win, recruit players with good charachter, graduate them, win, and generate interest in the program.  If his chocies of motivational speakers, showmanship at fan events, or interviews with national media were part of his effort, I see no reason to assume there were bad intentions behind it. 

I support Buzz now for the same reasons--he wants good charachter players, he wants them to graduate, he wants the team to win, and he wants support. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

To be fair, there was a pocket of posters who were mouthpieces for Tom Crean. And for 8-12 months, the party line (myself included) involving DJ did include many of the things DK wrote earlier in this thread.

I don't doubt this one bit. I remember the posts. In fact, I bet I posted in some of the threads.

I guess the question is: How is Tom Crean supposed to control this type of speculation? Was he making the posts?

I'm just not sure that "Controlling internet speculation" is a required skill for a college hoops head coach.

[nola03]

Finally, I have a small objection to your use of the word "mouthpiece."  I would prefer "Marquette fan."  I don't understand why so many here decide that being a fan means impugning every intention of the administration, the athletic department or the coaching staff.   

Being a fan doesn't impugn any intention. There is a difference between a "fan" and a "mouthpiece". They both share the same passion but the former is usually in the dark on the insider aspects of the program; as for the latter, they do have some insight into the insider aspect of the program and typically their words reflect that status. That is the context in which I use the phrase.


2002--
Tom Crean didn't control the speculation. But it tended to start with him. If he drops a certain nugget of knowledge to a fan who is close to the program, that fan would likely leak it to others who are close to the program (whether through earshot or internet post). From there, the nugget is wrapped in a decidedly pro-MU flavor and sold on a plate to other Marquette fans.

This isn't anything that is singularly attributed to Tom Crean. In fact, it still occurs today at Marquette even though Crean is gone. Happens with every sporting team in every league around the world. The coach may not be controlling the conversation, but he started it.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Being a fan doesn't impugn any intention. There is a difference between a "fan" and a "mouthpiece". They both share the same passion but the former is usually in the dark on the insider aspects of the program; as for the latter, they do have some insight into the insider aspect of the program and typically their words reflect that status. That is the context in which I use the phrase.


2002--
Tom Crean didn't control the speculation. But it tended to start with him. If he drops a certain nugget of knowledge to a fan who is close to the program, that fan would likely leak it to others who are close to the program (whether through earshot or internet post). From there, the nugget is wrapped in a decidedly pro-MU flavor and sold on a plate to other Marquette fans.

This isn't anything that is singularly attributed to Tom Crean. In fact, it still occurs today at Marquette even though Crean is gone. Happens with every sporting team in every league around the world. The coach may not be controlling the conversation, but he started it.

Bingo.

Let me re-phrase my previous thoughts:

I don't think you can expect a head coach to control internet chatter because it's happening to every organization. I don't think there is a way to prevent it, and therefore it seems silly to try and single out a coach and blame him for it.

DCK clearly stated (in this thread) that he was unhappy with Crean because of the internet speculation regarding DJ. How is Crean any different from any other coach in his position? Posters love to speculate (whether they have insider information or not).

I just don't think you can blame a coach for that.

Blame Crean for a bad haircut, that's undeniable.

Don't blame him for internet chatter. The guy can't really control that.

[dennycrane]

Bingo.

Let me re-phrase my previous thoughts:

I don't think you can expect a head coach to control internet chatter because it's happening to every organization. I don't think there is a way to prevent it, and therefore it seems silly to try and single out a coach and blame him for it.

DCK clearly stated (in this thread) that he was unhappy with Crean because of the internet speculation regarding DJ. How is Crean any different from any other coach in his position? Posters love to speculate (whether they have insider information or not).

I just don't think you can blame a coach for that.

Blame Crean for a bad haircut, that's undeniable.

Don't blame him for internet chatter. The guy can't really control that.

What if a coach is allowing access in return for a positive spin or influence over a website? At the very least it reduces the credibility of such a website. At worst?

[Marquette84]

What if a coach is allowing access in return for a positive spin or influence over a website? At the very least it reduces the credibility of such a website. At worst?

"Reduces credibility?"

We're talking about a MARQUETTE FAN SITE for crying out loud!

If a coach cannot count on HIS OWN FANS for positive spin, who can he count on?

Again, I have to question how somebody can claim to be a fan, but at the same time assume that everything positive that is ever said about us is either planted by the coach, nothing but PR "spin" or "sold on a plate."

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

What if a coach is allowing access in return for a positive spin or influence over a website? At the very least it reduces the credibility of such a website. At worst?

Hmmm...

Well, a couple of thoughts here:

#1 I don't want to stick my head in the sand that it couldn't happen, but I cannot confirm it. I really have no first hand knowledge or special inside information, so it's tough for me to make any sort of educated speculation on the dreaded "other site" and their relationship with Crean. I read that site occasionally, but I don't post their, and I'm not exactly up to date with the goings on.

#2 Even if Crean was giving those guys access to certain information, I'm still not connecting the dots as to how he was "spinning" specifically in the DJ situation.

MU was oversigned, fans were speculating on who was coming back on scholarship. What information was Crean leaking to make himself look good? How is it "spin" or to his advantage to have information about DJ going to Europe out on a website?

[dennycrane]

"Reduces credibility?"

We're talking about a MARQUETTE FAN SITE for crying out loud!

If a coach cannot count on HIS OWN FANS for positive spin, who can he count on?

Again, I have to question how somebody can claim to be a fan, but at the same time assume that everything positive that is ever said about us is either planted by the coach, nothing but PR "spin" or "sold on a plate."

Being a fan allows you to accept anything as the truth? That can hurt a program over the the long run. Sometimes what a coach wants you to believe may not be in the best interest of a program over the long haul.

[MUCam]

Just out of curiousity -

Let's assume Crean some how masterminded this wonderful PR spin. What is so bad about the head coach wanting "a good spin" on his program? I just don't get the negative reaction.

Call him a used car salesman if you want to, but it takes a used car salesman to sell a used car. In this day and age, with recruiting being as cut-throat as ever (including tons of "negative spin" recruiting by other coaches), why wouldn't you want to always paint your program in the best light?

Crean was an over-rated recruiter. He was an under-rated, but not great, game coach. One thing is for sure though; the man was a great PR machine. No matter how slimy you felt it was - no matter how detestable you found his continuous self-promotion - it was something this program needed. Without Crean's "positive spin" on everything, including feeding positive information to the national media, to the local media outlets, and to the alumni base, I seriously doubt Marquette would have ascended to where it is today. Without all that self-promotion, we might just be DePaul.

I just don't get the complete digust with what the guy did. You can dislike the guy as a man, but you cannot deny the effect he had on MU hoops. The guy placed this program on the national map again. Deane may have been somewhat successful, with much less talent. KO, it could be argued, accomplished just as much as Crean did on the hardcourt and in the recruiting fields. But neither of those two created the interest in MU hoops, both locally and nationally, that Crean did. Crean accomplished that by tireless self-promotion.

My biggest worry with Buzz, over any worries about coaching, is whether he has the personality to sell this program on a daily basis the way that Crean did. When you are a small, private Jesuit school, you need the gears on the great PR machine constantly grinding away.

[dennycrane]

Just out of curiousity -

Let's assume Crean some how masterminded this wonderful PR spin. What is so bad about the head coach wanting "a good spin" on his program? I just don't get the negative reaction.

Call him a used car salesman if you want to, but it takes a used car salesman to sell a used car. In this day and age, with recruiting being as cut-throat as ever (including tons of "negative spin" recruiting by other coaches), why wouldn't you want to always paint your program in the best light?

Crean was an over-rated recruiter. He was an under-rated, but not great, game coach. One thing is for sure though; the man was a great PR machine. No matter how slimy you felt it was - no matter how detestable you found his continuous self-promotion - it was something this program needed. Without Crean's "positive spin" on everything, including feeding positive information to the national media, to the local media outlets, and to the alumni base, I seriously doubt Marquette would have ascended to where it is today. Without all that self-promotion, we might just be DePaul.

I just don't get the complete digust with what the guy did. You can dislike the guy as a man, but you cannot deny the effect he had on MU hoops. The guy placed this program on the national map again. Deane may have been somewhat successful, with much less talent. KO, it could be argued, accomplished just as much as Crean did on the hardcourt and in the recruiting fields. But neither of those two created the interest in MU hoops, both locally and nationally, that Crean did. Crean accomplished that by tireless self-promotion.

My biggest worry with Buzz, over any worries about coaching, is whether he has the personality to sell this program on a daily basis the way that Crean did. When you are a small, private Jesuit school, you need the gears on the great PR machine constantly grinding away.

The larger problem is those "media" outlets who allow themselves to be spun. They have no credibility. If they are accepting "favors" to spin things the way a coach wants how can they be taken seriously? If the "media" is charging customers for information that is intentionally slanted they are doing their customers a disservice.