Mayo only one who showed up tonight...

[CTWarrior]

Really sort of stunned so much talk is being given to Vander right now.  When our PG position was again ...non-existant?   Our starter disappears menatlly or physically for entire games and our backup is at this point not even backing him up??

Was the weakness on the team this year ...and is the key to next year.  cannot imagine where this team might have gone this year with a Diener, hutchins, Miller, James, Henry, etc. at the point.

I talk about Blue too much because there's just something about the way he plays offense that gets under my skin.  

I think Cadougan is OK (a B/B- kind of player).  But the lack of a playable alternative when he is not playing well or in foul trouble like last night was a huge issue all season.  Blue did a fine job of getting the ball across half court against the press last night, but then could not orchestrate any kind of offense whatsoever once we got into the half court.  D Wilson is much the same.  He won't hurt you with turnovers but at the same time he won't do anything positive, either.  A dynamic point guard is the best player a college team can have.

[mu_hilltopper]

.. none of our guys were getting the whistles down low that we normally do.   Not DJO, not Crowder, and definitely not Ox.

No disagreement there.  But in games' past, those other guys have a much higher ability to draw them.

[Canadian Dimes]

We can pick all the arbitrary end points we want: in his last 10 games, including the tournament (read: against better competition), he hit double-figures four times, averaged 8.0 points, per game, and shot 34.3% from the floor.

I think the pounding on Vander is unwarranted...whether u use his 10 ppg stat or ur 8 ppg stat it is clearly better than he did down the stretch last year.  Add in his defense and rebounding and those are really some pretty solid numbers for a sophomore.

i think the issue is when DJO struggle or jae struggle and our PG once again drove to the wrong arena people look to Vander, bacause of his billing, to be the star that carries the day.

He is simply not today that player.  he is a great complimentary player.  Going forward hopefully he can take the next step to being a go to guy who can be counted on on the offensive end nightly or someone else can take that mantle.  

Even if he does not become that primary or secondary scorere, if he can improve going into next year like he did from frosh to soph year he is going to be a really key part of our team.

[GGGG]

True.  Good defensive players are valuable, but players that can do both - offense and defense - are much more valuable.  

That is one stunning basketball observation.

I completely agree that he needs to develop offensively, and I completely agree that he has not met expectations, but there is a reason why Buzz plays him.  He does a couple of things very well and is very valuable because of it.  Yesterday was an example...he lead the team in rebounding and when Junior was in foul trouble, Vander pretty much ran the point and had ZERO turnovers.

And the guy just finished his sophomore year.  Plenty of time to grow.

[Rubie Q]

I think the pounding on Vander is unwarranted...whether u use his 10 ppg stat or ur 8 ppg stat it is clearly better than he did down the stretch last year.  Add in his defense and rebounding and those are really some pretty solid numbers for a sophomore.

i think the issue is when DJO struggle or jae struggle and our PG once again drove to the wrong arena people look to Vander, bacause of his billing, to be the star that carries the day.

He is simply not today that player.  he is a great complimentary player.  Going forward hopefully he can take the next step to being a go to guy who can be counted on on the offensive end nightly or someone else can take that mantle.  

Even if he does not become that primary or secondary scorere, if he can improve going into next year like he did from frosh to soph year he is going to be a really key part of our team.

It would've been next to impossible for him not to improve on his numbers down the stretch last year, since he averaged, what, 1.0 point per game in the last 10 last year?

Anyway, I don't think I'm pounding on Vander. I think he's very good -- and potentially elite -- defensively, but he's limited offensively and is close to his ceiling if he doesn't develop his left hand and doesn't develop a jumper. That's all.

[bilsu]

I am not claiming bad reffing, but I do think the style of game called by refs effected MU. Crowder got a couple of weak fouls and that got into his head, which then has an effect the other MU players. Crowder was definately bother last night mentally.

[MerrittsMustache]

We can pick all the arbitrary end points we want: in his last 10 games, including the tournament (read: against better competition), he hit double-figures four times, averaged 8.0 points, per game, and shot 34.3% from the floor.

The previous point was that if Vander's offense was going to develop, we would have seen it by now. Can you point to a 10-game stretch his freshman season where he put up numbers similar to what he put up to end this regular season?

Also, 7 of the 10 games to end the season were against NCAA Tournament teams so your "better competition" argument doesn't really stand up.

[Rubie Q]

The previous point was that if Vander's offense was going to develop, we would have seen it by now. Can you point to a 10-game stretch his freshman season where he put up numbers similar to what he put up to end this regular season?

Also, 7 of the 10 games to end the season were against NCAA Tournament teams so your "better competition" argument doesn't really stand up.

Sure can: from the South Dakota game to the Vandy game last year, Van averaged 10.4 ppg, on 47.5% shooting from the floor and 74.2% from the line.

And that's not including the game against Green Bay right before USD, when he had 14 on 7-10 shooting.

[MerrittsMustache]

Sure can: from the South Dakota game to the Vandy game last year, Van averaged 10.4 ppg, on 47.5% shooting from the floor and 74.2% from the line.

And that's not including the game against Green Bay right before USD, when he had 14 on 7-10 shooting.

Fair enough. Now, this year he did it against significantly better competition. That's development, no?

[Rubie Q]

Fair enough. Now, this year he did it against significantly better competition. That's development, no?

I'm not arguing that he didn't get better. Of course he did. But it wasn't the kind of development that convinces me he's going to be a primary or even secondary scoring option, no.

[NersEllenson]

Vander has a LONG, LONG, LONG way to go to be considered NBA material.  I find it unbelievable that some think he can be a 1st round pick.  Seriously?  He's nowhere near as good as McNeal was as a sophomore...and there is NOTHING that suggests he could ascend to the 1st Team All Big East level McNeal played at as a senior...and McNeal didn't get drafted.

Honestly believe Vander HAS to be groomed from this point forward entirely as a Point Guard..and that he should work on those skills more than any (along with getting in the weight room a TON).  Vander simply is NOT a 2 guard, never will be.  He has lots of athletic tools, but they don't exactly translate into results offensively speaking.

[MerrittsMustache]

I'm not arguing that he didn't get better. Of course he did. But it wasn't the kind of development that convinces me he's going to be a primary or even secondary scoring option, no.

I'm not really sure what you're arguing and I'm not so sure that you know either. My point was that we have seen some development in Vander's offensive game. When did anyone say anything about him being the first or second option on offense? If that was your original point, why didn't you say that until now?

[Rubie Q]

I'm not really sure what you're arguing and I'm not so sure that you know either. My point was that we have seen some development in Vander's offensive game. When did anyone say anything about him being the first or second option on offense? If that was your original point, why didn't you say that until now?

I guess I thought it was clear that was my point. My bad.

[QuetteHoops]

Good game Todd

[Blackhat]

Todd was diving for balls with force much moreso than any other MU player I've see in a long while.

[ErickJD08]

He needs to learn how to finish.  His greatest strength is his athletic ability.  But athletic ability doesn't score points.

I understand the benefit he brings to defense and rebounding.  The problem I see is that he is missing lay ups which should high percentage shots for our team.  Furthermore, he is missing them so bad or getting the shot blocked which turns into a fast break for the other team OR a momentum changer.  Every basketball expert here has to understand momentum is important in college basketball.  Missing easy shots and getting shots swatted into the third row can shift the momentum.  Offense is NOT the only part of the game but it can impact the defense with transition. 

As for the shooting percentage, what is Gardner's percentage?  Only reason I bring this up is shooting percentage is not an apple to apple comparison.  44% is great for a 3 point shooter but VERY poor for a post player.  Vander primarily shoots layups or shots within 5 feet.  His percentage should be higher.  His improvement in FT% has been outstanding.  It seemed like he turned a new leaf after that game where he sunk the four FTs in a row for the win.

As for NBA prospects, he needs to improve greatly.  6'4 athletic bodies are a dime a dozen in the league.  There is so much talent out there where offense DOES matter.  People can bring up some defensive players but even those guys can hit an open jumper. 

I hope the kid learns how to finish because we will need him to contribute next season.