Buzz and JuCo's.... from Syracuse

[tower912]

http://www.dailyorange.com/sports/mbb-junior-achievement-williams-has-success-at-marquette-through-recruitment-of-juco-athletes-1.1919832?pagereq=1

Reading this, it doesn't appear that we are going to stop recruiting JUCO's.    As long as they are good people, too, bring them in. 

[radome]

Maybe Orr could unretire and become the new Layer, if we think that we are missing that bench presence.

[GGGG]

I don't think Orr wants a full time gig.

And frankly it is nice to see a nice, mature journalist who has an understanding of what JUCOs mean without labelling them.  (I'm directing this to you Tom Oates.)

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Orr sits at the scorers table right by where buzz stands the whole game.  I'm willing to bet that buzz is getting more input from Orr than the other assistants.

[Marquette84]

The implication that the only downside to JUCOs is that they are not "good people" is a straw man.

I see two challenges that have nothing to do with the character of the players.

First, right now we are seeing the very top end of what we can expect out of a JUCO lineup. This year our primary rotation is a veritable JUCO all-star team.  We have a national POY (Crowder), two more 1st team AAs (Buycks & DJO, both in their 2nd year at MU), a 2nd team AA (Fulce in his 3rd year) and an honorable mention (Butler also in his 3rd year).  This season is what we can expect when we have JUCOs, and most of them are experienced.

The other long term issue is that it doubles the amount of recruiting time simply to continue the current level of success. If we recruit an undergraduate group like James/McNeal/Matthews or Key/Logtermann/McIlvaine, and then let them develop, we don't need to have a replacement read to go in a year or two--we have some breathing room.

[tower912]

I believe that Buzz is hoping to recruit more high schoolers with the occasional JUCO mixed in.   You cite two examples, Wes/Jerel/Dom and Logterman/Key/McIlvane.   I don't believe that Buzz felt (feels) that he had the option of a L/K/M style recruiting class as (A) they sucked as freshman and (B) the pressure is/was to win now/sustain and continue what Crean started, something that KO'N did not have when following Dukiet.  I, too, would like to see annual 3-4 player recruit classes that develop in time, a la Bo.   Buzz apparently did not feel he had the luxury of time and the number of losses it would require to build that up.   If he had tried, we would be experiencing the same birthing pains that IU is experiencing right now.   And while Crean may yet turn that ship around, Buzz chose a path he knew in the short term to keep the program competitive.    What shall happen in the long term is yet to be determined, but I would not object to using one of our last two schollies on a JUCO who can contribute right away.   

[RawdogDX]

Next year we will have, at least, 9 four year players on the roster.  
I understand that this year we are very heavy in the JuCo department this year, but don't see any evidence that this will carry into the future.

We have a huge stable of underclass talent.  I'm sure buzz will grab another crowder or butler if the opportunity arises but I don't think we'll have another team this Juco centric anytime soon.

[Lennys Tap]

The implication that the only downside to JUCOs is that they are not "good people" is a straw man.

I see two challenges that have nothing to do with the character of the players.

First, right now we are seeing the very top end of what we can expect out of a JUCO lineup. This year our primary rotation is a veritable JUCO all-star team.  We have a national POY (Crowder), two more 1st team AAs (Buycks & DJO, both in their 2nd year at MU), a 2nd team AA (Fulce in his 3rd year) and an honorable mention (Butler also in his 3rd year).  This season is what we can expect when we have JUCOs, and most of them are experienced.

The other long term issue is that it doubles the amount of recruiting time simply to continue the current level of success. If we recruit an undergraduate group like James/McNeal/Matthews or Key/Logtermann/McIlvaine, and then let them develop, we don't need to have a replacement read to go in a year or two--we have some breathing room.

Maybe that's as far as 5 jucos can CARRY MU, but why should they have to? There are 6 (were 7) former high schoolers on scholarship, and their contributions pale in comparison to those of our jucos.

And 3 of our 5 jucos will play three full seasons at MU. Considering the rate of transfers in D1 basketball that doesn't indicate instability to me. I'll take the best players/people we can get and not worry how they get here.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

And while Crean may yet turn that ship around, Buzz chose a path he knew in the short term to keep the program competitive.    What shall happen in the long term is yet to be determined, but I would not object to using one of our last two schollies on a JUCO who can contribute right away.   

That is a really great article on Buzz. I wonder what some posters around here would say if Buzz started getting this kind of publicity.

http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/tag/tom-crean/

[brewcity77]

That is a really great article on Buzz. I wonder what some posters around here would say if Buzz started getting this kind of publicity.

http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/tag/tom-crean/

*Sigh*

We can't have a thread about Buzz without it turning into Buzz v Crean, can we? 

Back on topic (or at least that's what I'll attempt, I'm sure that PRN's link will end up dominating another Buzz v TC thread), I started to think more and more about our JUCOs after reading this article. For the past two seasons, we have largely been led by JUCOs. And in terms of talent, it's clear that these guys can deliver on the court. Butler has been the model of consistency over the past two years and is the kind of guy you want on your team both on and off the court. DJO has developed into one of the best pure scoring threats in the entire Big East, averaging a monstrous 20+ ppg in league play. Buycks has gone from a decent bench contributor to a surprisingly solid starting point guard despite being a natural 3. Fulce has been the energy guy off the bench, and recent arrival Crowder has picked up very efficiently where NBA first-rounder Lazar Hayward left off.

The odds are that at least two of those five players will end up playing in the NBA. Even if they aren't first rounders, I expect both JFB and DJO will hear their names on draft night, and at the rate he's going, Crowder could very well join them in that elite club. If that ends up being the case, we'll have pushed three kids from the JUCO ranks to the NBA. How many other schools can boast that success rate with JUCOs in the past few years? Hell, how many can boast that success rate in the past few decades? I remember looking recently online to see how many JUCO kids made it to the NBA, and it was an incredibly minute amount. Yet here we are, making it look easy.

At the end of the day, there are a few factors that will determine a team's success. Having talented kids who can get the job done on the floor is clearly one of those. And right now, we've got five guys who seem to embody that. And not only that, but all of them also seem to be great guys off the court as well. When it comes to the JUCO stigma, we are defying the trends not only in terms of recruiting frontline high-major players but also great character kids.

As much as there is the belief that you can't build around JUCOs, we've done it over the past two years. And be honest, is there any problem with having cornerstone players like JFB, DJO, or Crowder? Wouldn't all three of them likely see significant minutes on 95% of the teams in the country?

To be successful, it's always been thought that you have to build around 4-year players. Because that's how it's always been done. But Buzz is defying that. Now granted, we haven't seen the payoff in March as of yet. And I do think you still need to get some guys in who are there for four years, and if you want to make a run at titles, you probably need some of those one-and-done type talents. But if Buzz can consistently find guys like the five we currently have and supplement the roster with four-year guys, is there really anything wrong with that? I'm sure plenty of people have reasons why, but just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't work.

In addition, think of what it would mean for Marquette's recruiting if we did manage to put those three in the NBA. I imagine most JUCO kids know that their ceiling is playing for a high-major school. There simply aren't that many of them that make it to the top level. But if we put three in the league, suddenly I imagine there will be a light that goes on. Instead of "JUCOs don't go to the NBA" it might become "JUCOs don't go to the NBA unless they transfer to Marquette". Clearly Buzz has a good knack for finding JUCO players that can contribute, but this kind of success might make it even easier as the top JUCO talents would likely also be seeking us out.

Again, to really compete late into March, you still need the top level high school talents. You still need to recruit 4-year players. But just because no one has done it before with a high number of JUCOs doesn't mean it can't be done. Maybe getting a JUCO a year or so could end up being good for the program in the long run, especially if we can prove an ability to be the best place for the top JUCOs to transfer to.

[RawdogDX]

Are their some juco recruits coming in that I don't know about?  If ours were 2 year guys this wouldn't even be a discussion.  Buzz brought in 2, then 2, then 1. 

Even if we bring in another next year that means we'll have 3 on the team.  Is that really that far above average?

[4everwarriors]

Orr sits at the scorers table right by where buzz stands the whole game.  I'm willing to bet that buzz is getting more input from Orr than the other assistants.

Didn't Orr get canned from SH for underperforming?

[brewcity77]

Didn't Orr get canned from SH for underperforming?

No, though definitely a confusing point. That was Louis Orr, former SHU coach and current headman at Bowling Green. Buzz's mentor was Lewis Orr, a Junior College HoF coach. Similar name, but definitely different guys.

[4everwarriors]

I stand erected.