The Roster of a Contender?

[NersEllenson]

I try to refrain from getting into these arguments, but Ners, your posts are getting ridiculous.  Are you in any way related to Buzz; he got the job by the way.

I honestly think if Buzz read your posts he would tell you to quit.  You come across as a guy trying to glorify Coach's 2 years to overcompensate for some shortcomings you see.  Coach walked into a great situation at MU, much better than the situation Crean walked into here.

I love how "fans" like you say that Wade was the only reason Crean had any success.  I am sure the rest of the players are appreciative of your support (my guess is that they don't give a rip what you say).  Another thing, how did Crean, who supposedly couldn't recruit or coach, win so many games at MU?

I did not like the way Crean left, but to minimize his accomplishments is nuts.  I hope Buzz does take MU to a higher level, but to say he is already better than Crean is reaching.  He won with Crean's players; now we will see how we do with his.

If one wanted to be the anti-Ners, one could say that the only reason we made the tourney this year is because the Big East had a down year.  One could also argue that Buzz's 2009 class was overrated, given the performance of some of our recruits (besides he already lost one of the top recruits of the group).  One could whine that Buzz got lucky that Blue fell into his lap after he had a falling out with UW, since he wanted to stay close to home.  All of this would sound like sour grapes - - good then you get my point.




   

   

Am I in any way related to Buzz??  Are you kidding me?? The answer is no -I just recognize talent when I see it, and a good coach when I see one.  Buzz fits both molds.  Tom Crean, not so much.  Are you sure you aren't related to Tom Crean?? Every single on e of your 24 posts only pertains to defending Tom Crean's legacy at MU, and/or to make excuses for him as to why he is struggling at IU.  I'd bet that you are simply Chicos 2.0..which is funny..that you would resort to making a 2nd account to post the same B.S. you do under Chicos Bailbonds.

[Golden Avalanche]

Robert Jackson.

I have no idea why fans like you want to minimize MU's biggest basketball accomplishment of the last 33 years.  I've heard it all...it was only one player...Kentucky was overrated...we played in a weak conference...  All because people don't like the coach.

It's pathetic really.

Couldn't agree more.

The poster you quoted feels any comment less than complete slurping of Buzz is tantamount to being a traitor to the program.

You can be a great fan and still be critical when necessary. Some fans are too simplistic to get that.

[NersEllenson]

Couldn't agree more.

The poster you quoted feels any comment less than complete slurping of Buzz is tantamount to being a traitor to the program.

You can be a great fan and still be critical when necessary. Some fans are too simplistic to get that.

I agree, I am a great fan, and will be critical when necessary - which is exactly what I am of Tom Crean.  As I've said, I appreciate what the guy did for the program, but really don't think he belongs above Kevin O'Neill in the hierarchy of coaches.  K.O., came into a MUCH tougher situation playing in the MCC, and MU had not been to an NCAA tourney in approximately 10 years when he took over.  Crean did a good job of building on K.O.'s accomplishments and taking the program to the next level.  My only point in all of this is, that Buzz Williams will take the program to even higher levels. 

And I also agree that some fans such as yourself, are too simplistic (or stubborn) to recognize talent and future greatness, when it is on display everyday from the head coach of your favorite team.  If you can't recognize that Buzz Williams has "it," then you my friend, are the simpleton.  Period.

[Marquette84]

I agree, I am a great fan, and will be critical when necessary - which is exactly what I am of Tom Crean. 

And what criticism have you ever posted about Buzz?

Based on your comments, not only have you not been "critical when necessary"--you attack anyone who posts the slightest reasonable criticism of Buzz.

Hell, you even attacked me for suggesting that with the talent we had we should have expected a top-half finish last year. How dare I put such unrealistic expectations on Buzz--I must be trying to tear him down. And who was right in the end? 

If you were completely honest, you'd give Buzz credit for maintaining us at or close to the level that we were at when Crean left--not trying to tear down prior accomplishments for the sole purpose of building Buzz up. 

We haven't improved in the Big East standings--we're getting to about the same level Crean had us.  We haven't made a deeper run in the NCAA tournament.  His recruiting is a mixed bag (as was Crean's).   Basecially what Buzz has done is kept things on an even keel.

As I've said, I appreciate what the guy did for the program,

No you don't.  In fact, you're constantly ripping on his biggest accomplishments and positives as if they never occurred or Crean had nothing to do with them.

but really don't think he belongs above Kevin O'Neill in the hierarchy of coaches. 

By any objective measure, Crean accomplished more.

But let me state it in terms you might understand.  Other than O'Neill's Sweet 16 run, he never won an NCAA tournament game at Marquette. In fact, that run at Marquette contains his only NCAA or NIT wins of his entire career!

Frankly, if for no other reason than his parting shot at MU as he departed, he should be forever discredited.  Publicly telling the world that he took the program as far it could possibly go, that the fans and administration are completely unrealistic, and recommending his friend, Mr. NIT, as his successor, he set MU back at least as far as we were when he took over.

K.O., came into a MUCH tougher situation playing in the MCC, and MU had not been to an NCAA tourney in approximately 10 years when he took over.  Crean did a good job of building on K.O.'s accomplishments and taking the program to the next level. 

One has to be completely insane to think its MUCH tougher to win in the MCC as compared to the Big East.  The MCC/Horizon was and still is a cakewalk compared to the Big East.  With even the slighest recruiting success, a coach can clean house.  Not only is it easier to win because of lesser competition--that winning is recognized nationally Xavier and Butler have regularly run to top 25 rankings in that conference.  In fact, It took Bruce Pearl one year to make it to the NCAA, and three to make it to the Sweet 16. 

So don't give us this BS that O'Neill had a "MUCH tougher" situation.  Frankly, Crean had the MUCH tougher situation to win in a league that regularly has five or six top 25 teams.

Furthermore, Crean wasn't building on O'Neill's accomplishments--he was rebuilding a losing program from Deane.
The team O'Neill inherited went 13-15 the year before.
The team Crean inherited was a 14-15 program the year before.

In other words, the program had nearly fallen to the level it was when O'Neill took over. 

My only point in all of this is, that Buzz Williams will take the program to even higher levels. 

He might.  He might not.  Nobody can gripe if you make a prediction with a reasonable basis. 

Your problem is that you keep saying that Buzz has ALREADY accomplished it.   

And I also agree that some fans such as yourself, are too simplistic (or stubborn) to recognize talent and future greatness, when it is on display everyday from the head coach of your favorite team. 

What is more simplistic than your Buzz=good/Crean=bad filter on life? 

What is worse is your double standard.  For example: when MU loses McNeal for the NCAA in 2007, its part of your "Look at Crean's record-- he didn't go deep in the tournament" broad-brush indictment.  When MU loses James in 2009, suddenly your argument is "Can't blame Buzz--did you really expect a deep run with James injured?" 

If you can't recognize that Buzz Williams has "it," then you my friend, are the simpleton.  Period.

And if you can't admit that Tom Crean also had "it,", then you are just as much a simpleton.  Period.

[wildbillsb]

84 -
I'm not one of the ringside judges, but for my money, you won this round.  +10

[muchalktalk]

Ners,

I just don't understand why fans like you want to minimize the successes our teams achieved and the players we had just because you didn't like the coach.  By saying that all of our success was due to D Wade, you disrespect all the other guys who invested time and sweat-equity to put our team back on the map. 

If you think we hadn't fallen off of the map, then you were not following MU then.  Toward the end of Crean's tenure, we became a consistent Top 25 team.  I will be forever thankful for the Final Four run, as it was a great experience.

I hope to heck that Buzz can take us back to the Final Four, even win a National Championship. 

[NersEllenson]

84 - I'm not going to go point by point over every comment you make..nobody wants to read posts that long.  The reality is Buzz has been here 2 years...okay??  As I've said before, give him 9 and lets see where he's at.  And are you knocking K.O. for only winning 2 NCAA tourney games??  Other than the final four run - Tom Crean won 1 NCAA tourney games...in 9 freakin' years.  K.O. was here what..6 years?  You are the one who makes invalid comparison because you don't measure things against the same sample size.  I'm taking the data we have avaliable currently, and pointing out how similar things are - even tho Buzz is in year 2, as opposed to year 9.

And dude - Crean never won the Big East..not even close.  He played in Conference USA, which at very least was a step up from the MCC, but not a very tough league.  It was in those years that Crean cleaned up and got us a high seed in the NCAA tourney - granted we lost as a 5 with D-Wade to Tulsa, but were able to squeak through as a 3 against Holy Cross...( on a team with 3 future NBA players) remarkable coaching there to get is into a nail bitter against a 14 seed.

And please, make points that coincide - Buzz got us out of the first round without DJames.  Crean couldn't get us out of the first round against MSU without McNeal.  And lets face it, you picked MU 5th in the Big East this year so you could say Buzz didn't live up to expectations - I think a lot of us thought they'd be better than 12th as virtually every single "expert" had MU - but not many genuinely thought this team would finish 5th..especially not after losing Otule, Maymon and Cadougan.

And no - I don't criticize Buzz, because up to this point - I can't really find anything to complain about.  Lastly 84, why can't Tom Crean land a better recruiting class at IU (It is Indiana after all), with a ton of playing time available, than Buzz landed at MU with limited playing time available?  And why does Tom Crean still have to tweet about the Big 3.  And why does Wes Matthews say things like 'i felt like the shackles were taken off, once Buzz became coach?"

Crean's a fraud.  Deal with it.  D-Wade made him who he is..and he still tries to leverage the crap out of that relationship..it's all he's got.

[Golden Avalanche]

I agree, I am a great fan, and will be critical when necessary - which is exactly what I am of Tom Crean.  As I've said, I appreciate what the guy did for the program, but really don't think he belongs above Kevin O'Neill in the hierarchy of coaches.  K.O., came into a MUCH tougher situation playing in the MCC, and MU had not been to an NCAA tourney in approximately 10 years when he took over.  Crean did a good job of building on K.O.'s accomplishments and taking the program to the next level.  My only point in all of this is, that Buzz Williams will take the program to even higher levels. 

And I also agree that some fans such as yourself, are too simplistic (or stubborn) to recognize talent and future greatness, when it is on display everyday from the head coach of your favorite team.  If you can't recognize that Buzz Williams has "it," then you my friend, are the simpleton.  Period.

Seems to me Tom Crean is the only target of your criticism. You hate Tom Crean. Understandable. Makes you a simpleton to then hate everything he accomplished (which is what you do repeatedly with his Final Four). You don't do this with KO, Deane, or probably even Majerus -- even though he totally dicked MU.

And your last paragraph sounds like excerpts from a cult member. Future greatness on display every day???? Like the day he blew a fuse and went after Mac on the radio? Or the day he accepted a player into the family who then got arrested for rape? Or the day he went against the advice of nearly every prep coach in the state and recruited the Maymons? Or the day his team lost a 17-point lead in the second half (only to show a propensity of repeating this feat throughout the season)? Or the day he refused to call a timeout when a woeful offensive team punched us in the face coming out of halftime?

Look, Ners, Buzz has the makings of a very good coach. He's young. Got energy. Attractive personality on the recruiting trail. Executes off-beat thinking on the court. But to claim he's done nothing to deserve criticism, and overlook his mistakes because of your hope he one day becomes a great coach, smacks of blind homersim.

It's starting to feel like 2002-2004 again around here where there are staunch defenders of the coach and those who do anything less then slurp Buzz are deemed surplus to requirements and bad fans.

[Marquette84]

84 - I'm not going to go point by point over every comment you make..nobody wants to read posts that long.

Of course you aren't.  Because you can't.

• You can't argue that Buzz hasn't accomplished anything other than keeping us at the level we were at because its true.
  
• You can't argue that O'Neill didn't do anything outside his Sweet 16 run because its true.
• You can't argue my point that its tougher to win in the Big East than in the MCC because its true.
• You can't argue you don't have a double standard, because you do

 The reality is Buzz has been here 2 years...okay??  As I've said before, give him 9 and lets see where he's at.

No, that's not what you said before.  What you said before was that Buzz has ALREADY surpassed Crean's accomplishments.

I'm happy to give him more time--but you're not willing to even concede that the jury is still out.  You're saying Buzz has accomplished more.  Already.  Based on what he has already done.

And are you knocking K.O. for only winning 2 NCAA tourney games??  

No.  I'm knocking him because outside of the Sweet 16 year, he didn't win ANY NCAA tourney games!!

Other than the final four run - Tom Crean won 1 NCAA tourney games...in 9 freakin' years.

So?  Other than the Sweet 16 year, KO won zero NCAA games.  And Zero NIT games.  

And other than that single win in 2009, Buzz has yet to win an NCAA game!

(Boy, this is fun when we get to exclude each coach's best season!--or can we only do that for Crean?).  

 K.O. was here what..6 years?  You are the one who makes invalid comparison because you don't measure things against the same sample size.  I'm taking the data we have avaliable currently, and pointing out how similar things are - even tho Buzz is in year 2, as opposed to year 9.

So we're supposed to give O'Neill credit for bailing on MU?  Thats a new one.

O'Neill got to a Sweet 16 in his fifth season. Crean got to a Final Four in his fourth season.  Excluding anything that happened after Crean's fifth year, he STILL accomplished more than O'Neill.

As for Buzz, I'm happy to defer judgement to give him time--but you are the one who said said he ALREADY surpassed Crean. I'm looking at Buzz's body of work to see what he has that would surpass either a Sweet 16 or a Final Four--and all I see is one NCAA win over Utah State.

And dude - Crean never won the Big East..not even close.  

Has Buzz?  

How about this:  
Has Buzz surpassed Crean's best Big East finish (4th place)?  No.  
Has Buzz equalled Crean's best Big East finish (4th place)?  No.

But according to you, Buzz has "ALREADY surpassed" Crean.  

I'm willing to concede that Buzz has continued the success that was in place under Crean--which is no small accomplishment.  

But I really have to question definition of "surpassed" that you think Buzz has achieved it.

And lets face it, you picked MU 5th in the Big East this year so you could say Buzz didn't live up to expectations - I think a lot of us thought they'd be better than 12th as virtually every single "expert" had MU - but not many genuinely thought this team would finish 5th..especially not after losing Otule, Maymon and Cadougan.

Those same "experts" you so blindly follow had DJO with a 40 rating.  Think that might have had something to do with their pre-season predictions?

But I'm guessing that you're right there with the experts--nobody could predict what DJO (or Buycks or Butler) would accomplish.  

If this had been Crean, you would be saying that he "lucked into" a great season because nobody knew DJO was going to be as good as he was.

Meanwhile, I based my prediction on the statement that Buycks, DJO and Butler would be at least as good as the Amigos were as frosh.  Therefore, either you think (as I did) that his performance was entirely predictable (in which case Buzz rightly gets props for finding and signing DJO and Buycks specifically ahead others).  

Otherwise, you have to accept that Buzz merely lucked into success this season, because nobody expected DJO (and Buycks and Butler) to perform that well.

[NersEllenson]

Seems to me Tom Crean is the only target of your criticism. You hate Tom Crean. Understandable. Makes you a simpleton to then hate everything he accomplished (which is what you do repeatedly with his Final Four). You don't do this with KO, Deane, or probably even Majerus -- even though he totally dicked MU.

And your last paragraph sounds like excerpts from a cult member. Future greatness on display every day???? Like the day he blew a fuse and went after Mac on the radio? Or the day he accepted a player into the family who then got arrested for rape? Or the day he went against the advice of nearly every prep coach in the state and recruited the Maymons? Or the day his team lost a 17-point lead in the second half (only to show a propensity of repeating this feat throughout the season)? Or the day he refused to call a timeout when a woeful offensive team punched us in the face coming out of halftime?

Sorry, I just don't worship Tom Crean like you, 84, and Chicos do.  Its funny you call me cult-like in my respect and admiration for Buzz, yet you act the exact same way toward Tom Crean.  I don't hate the guy.  Period.  I just don't think he's a very good coach, or recruiter for that matter - evidenced by his performance thus far at IU, and what he accomplished at MU without a once in a century player like DWade..whom was a recruiting afterthought.

And are you really going to call out last years team for losing several 2nd half leads??  The fact we had leasds or were in as many games as we were given our lack of size, and dpth speaks volumes to how good of coach Buzz Williams is.  Hindsight is always 20-20, and its guys like you that consistently judge things based on hindsight - such as recruiting Maymon.  I like that Buzz took a chance on Maymon - why not??  id it really hurt us - when it may have helped us with regard to landing Vander blue?  And are you really going to blame Buzz for recruiting a kid who never set foot on MU's campus, had never been charged with any type of crime...but goes and does a stupid thing one night while in junior college?  Again, hindsight, 20-20, an that's how you judge things.  I'm making projections and predictions about the success of MU under Buzz - and guys like you ridiculemy enthusiasm.  We'll see how it all plays out over the next 4-7 years..my money is that Buzzz will far surpass Tom Crean..and that is what I'm most thankful to TC for..was bringing Buzz here.  And when Buzz does achieve great things at MU - I'll be sure to remind you, 84 and Chicos about it daily.  Count on it.

[NersEllenson]

84 - I'm done debating with you because you are ridiculous.  I'll say it one last time, give Buzz 7 more years at MU and we'll see how he stacks up against Tom Crean.  At this point he has 7 years to win 4 more NCAA tourney games.  I like his chances.

Lastly, why - if your boy Tom Crean is so awesome - is he consistently getting his ass kicked at IU??  And..with all that playing time available - why can he not land a Top 20 recruiting class?  Hell, he's at Indiana after all...a legendary basketball program.  Please just answer these questions - I look forward to the excuses you try to make to justify what to this point, has been a horse-sh$t job at Indiana.

[cheebs09]

I think it is very premature to say Buzz is better than Crean, but I don't think it is too much to say that many are optimistic that Buzz will be better than Crean. I think Buzz has accomplished something that Crean hasn't. In the year that was supposed to be a rebuilding year, Buzz took us to the tournament and we played down to the wire against an underseeded 11. We lost 3 of our all-time best players.

We had two years where we were in the NIT following the Final Four. Those teams had 2 NBA players (although they could have made the tourney if Diener didn't get hurt) and were in Conference-USA. I hope that argument doesn't hold up and we later find that last years team we had multiple NBA players on last year's team, but as of now I only see Lazar with an outside chance and possibly DJO.

Buzz has a small sample size and could flame out in a few years. Also, I'm sure you can use the argument that he had 3 of Crean's players last year. People say Buzz hasn't proved himself well because of Crean's players, but I think it can be just as tough winning with other players. Do you think Buzz would have recruited Cooby or Acker? Based on the others he has recruited I say no. But he was able to alter his style in order to maximize each of their skills. 

I think we all hope Buzz is better than Crean because that means that we are consistently in the tournament and ranked. I personally think Buzz has a higher ceiling than Crean. I'm sure I'm biased because I like Buzz more than Crean, but I really think that Buzz has the potential to take this program to great heights.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Ners is right! Time to let it go.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=16178.msg156963#msg156963

[Quote from: Ners on November 21, 2009, 03:11:15 PM ]

While I've never had any personal dealings with Tom Crean, and I've read here some people who have thought he evloved into an ass - I do think it is time for people to get off the Tom Crean Hate Wagon.  Stating the obvious, but the Tom Crean era really turned the image and perception of Marquette Basketball around.  The Al MacGuire center became a reality - a much needed facility/tool needed for training and recruiting.  Crean brought Buzz Williams on staff, and left behind a great situation for Buzz.  Buzz is taking the torch and running with it, and all signs indicate he could take the program to a level not seen since Al.  I just wish more MU fans would show some gratitude to Tom Crean.  Some posters here come off as bitter, even whiney girl types.  Who cares is Tom Crean used a tanning bed or not??  Really people.  Stop dissecting the guy and be grateful for what he did for our program.  Time to get over it.
[/quote]

[Golden Avalanche]

Ners is right! Time to let it go.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=16178.msg156963#msg156963

[Quote from: Ners on November 21, 2009, 03:11:15 PM ]

Might be the funniest roast I've ever read on this board. 

Credit to you for checking the record. And that is a great way to end this close-season conversation.

[wadefan#1]

Since I absolutely thrive upon putting the cart about two miles in front of the horse, I had a thought this morning about the Gardner signing... is he the missing piece?

Consider this: You have an absolute beast coming in who has size and skill (Gardner).  You have another big in Otule who, if he is progressing as many have said, will be a solid contributor on at least the defensive end.  Jae may very well be Lazar 2.0 if he can score on demand.  Blue and Cadougan will be a two-headed monster at the point (and 2), each with a different skill set.  DJO is, well... DJO (need I say more?).  Give these guys a full year to get it together, and what happens after that?

In 2011-12, MU's is going to return a defensive C, two PF's who can score, two guys who can run the point and penetrate, and a threat from downtown.  Not to mention a bench of further refined talent, and possibly another impact freshman or two.

Is the ceiling high enough to make a return trip to Nola in 2012, or is Buzz still missing a few pieces?

Sounds like one heck of a team.

[El Duderino]

I try to refrain from getting into these arguments, but Ners, your posts are getting ridiculous.  Are you in any way related to Buzz; he got the job by the way.

I honestly think if Buzz read your posts he would tell you to quit.  You come across as a guy trying to glorify Coach's 2 years to overcompensate for some shortcomings you see.  Coach walked into a great situation at MU, much better than the situation Crean walked into here.

I love how "fans" like you say that Wade was the only reason Crean had any success.  I am sure the rest of the players are appreciative of your support (my guess is that they don't give a rip what you say).  Another thing, how did Crean, who supposedly couldn't recruit or coach, win so many games at MU?

I did not like the way Crean left, but to minimize his accomplishments is nuts.  I hope Buzz does take MU to a higher level, but to say he is already better than Crean is reaching.  He won with Crean's players; now we will see how we do with his.

If one wanted to be the anti-Ners, one could say that the only reason we made the tourney this year is because the Big East had a down year.  One could also argue that Buzz's 2009 class was overrated, given the performance of some of our recruits (besides he already lost one of the top recruits of the group).  One could whine that Buzz got lucky that Blue fell into his lap after he had a falling out with UW, since he wanted to stay close to home.  All of this would sound like sour grapes - - good then you get my point.

I'm also not a fan at all of how Crean left and thus it has made me hope he fails at Indiana, but reading this thread, this Ners guy sounds ridiculous.

Who cares whether anyone thinks landing Wade was lucky. Bottom line is what matters in sports and Crean did bring in Wade and did lead Marquette to the best season of my college basketball fan viewing life. The circumstances for how Wade got here are utterly irrelevant to me. People could make a somewhat similar argument that Ron Wolf got lucky in that Brett Favre became a HOF QB which nobody in the NFL at the time would have predicted and thus the trade lead to a Super Bowl win. Who cares if Wolf may have got lucky in Favre turning out so good, all that matters is that Wolf brought Brett in. Wolf and Crean both took over not very enviable situations also. Plus, it's far from shocking in college basketball to see non-five star recruits then turn into great college players which thus help lift up a program as Wade did.

I'm a big fan of Buzz Williams and have relatively high confidence that he'll lead the program to consistent success and maybe even a Final Four run of his own. At the same time it's also not hard at all for me to greatly respect the things Crean did in restoring the program to much higher prominence than before he arrived, in helping make the program attractive enough to be chosen entrance to the Big East, and a wonderful Final Four season. Sadly, Crean's exit of Marquette has tarnished my opinion of him as a person, but that won't turn me into someone who goes into denial over the many fabulous things he accomplished after taking over a program going seriously in the wrong direction.

[brewcity77]

+1

Well stated, Dude.

[NersEllenson]

Might be the funniest roast I've ever read on this board. 

Credit to you for checking the record. And that is a great way to end this close-season conversation.

That post should illustrate that I don't have any hate toward Tom Crean, as well as states that I have some gratitude toward the guy. Nothing I'm posting here takes that away.  I'm simply stating that Tom Crean was overrated as a coach and recruiter.  I look forward to seeing what Buzz does, and am confident he'll take this program farther than Tom Crean did.  In fact, Tom Crean should be thanked for leaving when he did, and for leaving us Buzz.  It is amazing to contrast their public personalities, as well as their results on the court and off the court in recruiting.

So for 2002, 84, Chicos, Golden Avalanche - Clearly I don't hate your boy TC, can appreciate what he did while at MU - but also don't think there is anything wrong with comparing him to Buzz Williams and coming to the conclusion that I like Buzz Williams 100% more, and have a lot more confidence in him, than I do/did Tom Crean.  So far the on court results at Indiana, and recruiting results of Indiana, seem to illustrate we are fortunate to have Buzz.

[ChicosBailBonds]

  Am I in any way related to Buzz??  Are you kidding me?? The answer is no -I just recognize talent when I see it, and a good coach when I see one.  Buzz fits both molds.  Tom Crean, not so much.  Are you sure you aren't related to Tom Crean?? Every single on e of your 24 posts only pertains to defending Tom Crean's legacy at MU, and/or to make excuses for him as to why he is struggling at IU.  I'd bet that you are simply Chicos 2.0..which is funny..that you would resort to making a 2nd account to post the same B.S. you do under Chicos Bailbonds.

Sorry, but you are very wrong here and the mods can confirm this.  I'll await your apology and admission of error.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

And dude - Crean never won the Big East..not even close.  He played in Conference USA, which at very least was a step up from the MCC, but not a very tough league.  It was in those years that Crean cleaned up and got us a high seed in the NCAA tourney - granted we lost as a 5 with D-Wade to Tulsa, but were able to squeak through as a 3 against Holy Cross...( on a team with 3 future NBA players) remarkable coaching there to get is into a nail bitter against a 14 seed.

Comical on every level.  CUSA sent 5 teams to the big dance, something even the Big Ten struggles to do.  And you say it was merely a "step up" from the MCC?

Good Christ you make some comments that are remarkably unstable.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ners is right! Time to let it go.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=16178.msg156963#msg156963

[Quote from: Ners on November 21, 2009, 03:11:15 PM ]

LOL.  Now that was beautiful

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

That post should illustrate that I don't have any hate toward Tom Crean, as well as states that I have some gratitude toward the guy. Nothing I'm posting here takes that away.  I'm simply stating that Tom Crean was overrated as a coach and recruiter.  I look forward to seeing what Buzz does, and am confident he'll take this program farther than Tom Crean did.  In fact, Tom Crean should be thanked for leaving when he did, and for leaving us Buzz.  It is amazing to contrast their public personalities, as well as their results on the court and off the court in recruiting.

So for 2002, 84, Chicos, Golden Avalanche - Clearly I don't hate your boy TC, can appreciate what he did while at MU - but also don't think there is anything wrong with comparing him to Buzz Williams and coming to the conclusion that I like Buzz Williams 100% more, and have a lot more confidence in him, than I do/did Tom Crean.  So far the on court results at Indiana, and recruiting results of Indiana, seem to illustrate we are fortunate to have Buzz.

I want to believe you, but then you say things like:

...Crean never won the Big East..not even close.  He played in Conference USA, which at very least was a step up from the MCC, but not a very tough league....

...Crean's a fraud.  Deal with it.  D-Wade made him who he is..

Your first post back in December is level headed and reasonable. I agree with you 100%.

However, since then, your like of Buzz (which I agree with) seems to really have made you dislike former coach.

I think you can appreciate and like them both. No need to retro-actively call Crean "lucky" now that we have seen him struggle at certain points at both MU and IU. Seems like sour grapes.

Buzz is Buzz. We don't need to re-hash Crean's shortcomings to appreciate Buzz. Every Crean loss doesn't make Buzz a better coach. Crean could win 10 National Championships in a row, and it wouldn't make Buzz a better or worse coach.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think you can appreciate and like them both. No need to retro-actively call Crean "lucky" now that we have seen him struggle at certain points at both MU and IU. Seems like sour grapes.

Amen....been saying that for several years now.  Why is it not possible to appreciate them both?  Each are winners, each have done it the right way, kids graduating and winning at a high level.  Yet one guy was "lucky" and the other wasn't?  I guess becoming head coach and having 4 of the top 8 scorers in Marquette history handed to you on your roster was skill?

Appreciate them both.  Let's hope Buzz has the same or better career than Crean had.  We won't know for a number of years.