RIP Bill Russell

[lawdog77]

Well he's not worng. Way back then 6 teams made the playoffs. The Top seed in each conference were in the conference finals.Just had to win a 5 game series to make the NBA finals.

It's not like he said they were playing against a bunch of plumbers and firemen.

[MuggsyB]

Well he's not worng. Way back then 6 teams made the playoffs. The Top seed in each conference were in the conference finals.Just had to win a 5 game series to make the NBA finals.

It's not like he said they were playing against a bunch of plumbers and firemen.

Again, no one said he was wrong.  No one else stated it was a different game for a reason, it's irrelevant.  We're talking about the single moat important player in the history of NBA basketball.  To write that sentence immediately, to describe this man's career, is honestly insulting.   

[Spotcheck Billy]

There's nothing wrong with ranting a little bit. These are not parallel arguments. 

a little bit?

[lawdog77]

Again, no one said he was wrong.  No one else stated it was a different game for a reason, it's irrelevant.  We're talking about the single moat important player in the history of NBA basketball.  To write that sentence immediately, to describe this man's career, is honestly insulting.

Sultan's not the first, nor the last person on the interwebs to add their opinions to a conversation. Did someone pee in your Kona coffee this morning?

[MuggsyB]

Sultan's not the first, nor the last person on the interwebs to add their opinions to a conversation. Did someone pee in your Kona coffee this morning?

But he's the only one, in a discussion of the single most important player in NBA history, who begins by stating "it was more the times than Bill Russell". As if anyone else had his winning percentage or record in elimination games.  Not to mention the fact that on a daily basis Mr. Russell dealt with terrible racism which probably didn't make playing the game particularly easy.  Fluffy reprimands Scoopers constantly Lawdog, and personally insults people.  I'm belaboring my argument but it's necessary in this particular case. 

[Uncle Rico]

But he's the only one, in a discussion of the single most important player in NBA history, who begins by stating "it was more the times than Bill Russell". As if anyone else had his winning percentage or record in elimination games.  Not to mention the fact that on a daily basis Mr. Russell dealt with terrible racism which probably didn't make playing the game particularly easy.  Fluffy reprimands Scoopers constantly Lawdog, and personally insults people.  I'm belaboring my argument but it's necessary in this particular case.

No, it's not.

[cheebs09]

Again, no one said he was wrong.  No one else stated it was a different game for a reason, it's irrelevant.  We're talking about the single moat important player in the history of NBA basketball.  To write that sentence immediately, to describe this man's career, is honestly insulting.

He was responding to someone saying this will never happen again. This isn't a memorial wall for Russell's family to read.

The only reason this has turned into a multi-page discussion is due to you continuing to talk about it.

[JWags85]

Again, no one said he was wrong.  No one else stated it was a different game for a reason, it's irrelevant.  We're talking about the single moat important player in the history of NBA basketball.  To write that sentence immediately, to describe this man's career, is honestly insulting.

Yet you write completely subjective statements like this as if its some trump card.  You then get worked up if people are not completely effusive in the exact same way as you.  Bringing silly stuff like HS championships into things (when he was not at all a good player, as evidenced by his lack of scholarship offers).

Not a single person has disparaged Bill Russell.  He's an untouchable legend.  But taking early Celtics titles with a grain of salt is completely and unobjectionably fair.

[lawdog77]

But he's the only one, in a discussion of the single most important player in NBA history, who begins by stating "it was more the times than Bill Russell". As if anyone else had his winning percentage or record in elimination games.  Not to mention the fact that on a daily basis Mr. Russell dealt with terrible racism which probably didn't make playing the game particularly easy.  Fluffy reprimands Scoopers constantly Lawdog, and personally insults people.  I'm belaboring my argument but it's necessary in this particular case.

OK, how about if I say, in stats head to head Wilt mopped the floor with Bill. Wilt averaged 30 pts, 28 rebounds, 3.8 assists while shooting 48%. Russell averaged 14.2 points, 23 rebounds, and 4.4 assists while shooting 37%. A big reason why Russell gets so much love is because of his teammates, his coach, and the uneven playing field back then.

That being said, Mr. Russell is an all time great.

[MuggsyB]

OK, how about if I say, in stats head to head Wilt mopped the floor with Bill. Wilt averaged 30 pts, 28 rebounds, 3.8 assists while shooting 48%. Russell averaged 14.2 points, 23 rebounds, and 4.4 assists while shooting 37%. A big reason why Russell gets so much love is because of his teammates, his coach, and the uneven playing field back then.

That being said, Mr. Russell is an all time great.

I stated Chamberlain had better personal stats vs Russell.  Others seem suggest there is more nuance to the actual numbers and point to the win/loss percentage.  That said Chamberlain obviously would have been fine on Boston in lieu of Russell. 

[Lennys Tap]

Fluffy isn't wrong.  For whatever reason, this triggers you, Muggsy.

Russell is an all time great.
The game has changed in such a way that 11-13 is unlikely to ever happen again.

Both are true.

True that 11/13 is most likely impossible today in any of the major team sports.

Then again, true also that it was nearly impossible in Russell's day, too - isn't he the only one to do it?

Muggsy taking umbrage at Sultan being a tad pedantic/grumpy is interesting - is he new here?

[JWags85]

True that 11/13 is most likely impossible today in any of the major team sports.

Then again, true also that it was nearly impossible in Russell's day, too - isn't he the only one to do it?

Muggsy taking umbrage at Sultan being a tad pedantic/grumpy is interesting - is he new here?

I mean, Sam Jones won 10 in 12 years.  KC Jones won 8 in 9 years.  Heinsohn won 8 in 9 years,  including one before Russell.  Russell just played a few years longer than a number of those guys.

[lawdog77]

Article written by Sultan:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/441840-bill-russell-an-overrated-nba-legend

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Article written by Sultan:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/441840-bill-russell-an-overrated-nba-legend

Muggsy reaction

[Lennys Tap]

I mean, Sam Jones won 10 in 12 years.  KC Jones won 8 in 9 years.  Heinsohn won 8 in 9 years,  including one before Russell.  Russell just played a few years longer than a number of those guys.

In any true dynasty you'll see this sort of overlap. But only one player was the leader, best player and most important player of the Celtic dynasty - Bill Russell.

[brewcity77]

But he's the only one, in a discussion of the single most important player in NBA history, who begins by stating "it was more the times than Bill Russell". As if anyone else had his winning percentage or record in elimination games.  Not to mention the fact that on a daily basis Mr. Russell dealt with terrible racism which probably didn't make playing the game particularly easy.  Fluffy reprimands Scoopers constantly Lawdog, and personally insults people.  I'm belaboring my argument but it's necessary in this particular case.

It was the times. That's pretty much indisputable.

Russell spent his whole career in Boston, winning 11 titles. Bob Cousy, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn, KC Jones, and Frank Ramsey won titles with him and also all spent their entire careers in Boston. Every one of those names was a Hall of Fame player. You simply don't have that kind of roster consistency where you will line up Hall of Famer after Hall of Famer and have them all stay in the same spot their entire careers.

Saying what Russell did was more about the times than it was Russell isn't disparaging, it's simply an acknowledgment of reality.

[Jockey]

True that 11/13 is most likely impossible today in any of the major team sports.

Then again, true also that it was nearly impossible in Russell's day, too - isn't he the only one to do it?

Muggsy taking umbrage at Sultan being a tad pedantic/grumpy is interesting - is he new here?

The Yankees were in the World Series 29 times in a 43 year stretch.

Boston wasn't a 1-off.

Russell was a great player who won over and over while playing on an all-star team in Boston against inferior opponents. There is a good case that he may be the greatest defensive player ever. He was not a great offensive player.

[The Sultan]

Yes. And every single poster here, and person on the planet,  knows the game has changed  and 11/13 is improbable today.  These are "points" no one mentioned other than Fluffy because they have no reason to be mentioned at all. 

Lol. So now you're pretending to know what I meant all along?

[Lennys Tap]

The Yankees were in the World Series 29 times in a 43 year stretch.

Boston wasn't a 1-off.

The Yankees (like the Celtics) were a dynasty. But the best 13 year run in the 43 year span you reference produced 8 championships, not 11. 11-13 > 8-13 - by a lot.

Boston was a 1-off.

[The Sultan]

It was the times. That's pretty much indisputable.

Russell spent his whole career in Boston, winning 11 titles. Bob Cousy, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn, KC Jones, and Frank Ramsey won titles with him and also all spent their entire careers in Boston. Every one of those names was a Hall of Fame player. You simply don't have that kind of roster consistency where you will line up Hall of Famer after Hall of Famer and have them all stay in the same spot their entire careers.

Saying what Russell did was more about the times than it was Russell isn't disparaging, it's simply an acknowledgment of reality.

Right. Free agency, salary caps, expanded playoffs, many more teams, etc make that type of run nearly impossible in all sports.

And that's good!

And none of that disparages Russell.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Russell only got the easy titles.

[brewcity77]

The Yankees (like the Celtics) were a dynasty. But the best 13 year run in the 43 year span you reference produced 8 championships, not 11. 11-13 > 8-13 - by a lot.

Boston was a 1-off.

Was Boston's dynasty even the most impressive in NBA history? I'd say no. The Bulls winning 6/8 in an era of free agency with 27-29 teams was clearly more impressive. Not to mention Boston only needed to win 8 playoff games most years, while the Bulls needed 15.

8 of Boston's 11 titles in that stretch came in a league with no more than 9 teams. Yes, you still have to win, but when you had 4 Hall of Famers most years and only needed 8 victories to claim the title, it wasn't nearly the task it was for larger leagues in other sports.

When other teams like the Yankees you cite had their best runs, most were in bigger leagues. The Yankees won 12/18 in an MLB that ranged from 16 to 30 teams (28+ most years). The Packers won 5/7 titles in mostly 14 team leagues in the 1960s. One knock against the Canadiens, who won 15/24 from the 1950s-1970s, was that for a long time the Original Six was just that, a six team NHL (didn't expand until 1967).

All this is to say, it's really hard to compare across generations. Bill Russell was a great of his time. He accomplished things others have been unable to match, for myriad reasons. And I would say that he was a better person than basketball player, which is a truly amazing accomplishment because he was a great basketball player. But acknowledging the reality of what he dealt with isn't a slight, it's just providing necessary context to try to understand how it's relevant today.

EDIT: A little context...Bill Russell and Boston needed 98 wins to secure their 11 NBA titles in 13 years. Michael Jordan and Chicago needed 90 wins to secure their 6 titles in 8 years. Is that a slight to Russell, or just a statement of fact?

[JWags85]

Was Boston's dynasty even the most impressive in NBA history? I'd say no. The Bulls winning 6/8 in an era of free agency with 27-29 teams was clearly more impressive. Not to mention Boston only needed to win 8 playoff games most years, while the Bulls needed 15.

8 of Boston's 11 titles in that stretch came in a league with no more than 9 teams. Yes, you still have to win, but when you had 4 Hall of Famers most years and only needed 8 victories to claim the title, it wasn't nearly the task it was for larger leagues in other sports.

When other teams like the Yankees you cite had their best runs, most were in bigger leagues. The Yankees won 12/18 in an MLB that ranged from 16 to 30 teams (28+ most years). The Packers won 5/7 titles in mostly 14 team leagues in the 1960s. One knock against the Canadiens, who won 15/24 from the 1950s-1970s, was that for a long time the Original Six was just that, a six team NHL (didn't expand until 1967).

All this is to say, it's really hard to compare across generations. Bill Russell was a great of his time. He accomplished things others have been unable to match, for myriad reasons. And I would say that he was a better person than basketball player, which is a truly amazing accomplishment because he was a great basketball player. But acknowledging the reality of what he dealt with isn't a slight, it's just providing necessary context to try to understand how it's relevant today.

EDIT: A little context...Bill Russell and Boston needed 98 wins to secure their 11 NBA titles in 13 years. Michael Jordan and Chicago needed 90 wins to secure their 6 titles in 8 years. Is that a slight to Russell, or just a statement of fact?

Even further.  During that stretch, the Celtics had 5 players on the NBA's 50 greatest list.  During the 10 series stretch ending in '66...they faced 4 others...TOTAL on all the teams. (Baylor, West, Pettit, and Wilt)

[MuggsyB]

Bill Russell still holds the high jump record for USF.  This was pre the f-flop era.  I guess they did it stomach first back then.

Wilt was truly an insane athlete.  You do have to wonder what he could have dome with modern medicine and the comditioning of today.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Was Boston's dynasty even the most impressive in NBA history? I'd say no. The Bulls winning 6/8 in an era of free agency with 27-29 teams was clearly more impressive. Not to mention Boston only needed to win 8 playoff games most years, while the Bulls needed 15.

8 of Boston's 11 titles in that stretch came in a league with no more than 9 teams. Yes, you still have to win, but when you had 4 Hall of Famers most years and only needed 8 victories to claim the title, it wasn't nearly the task it was for larger leagues in other sports.

When other teams like the Yankees you cite had their best runs, most were in bigger leagues. The Yankees won 12/18 in an MLB that ranged from 16 to 30 teams (28+ most years). The Packers won 5/7 titles in mostly 14 team leagues in the 1960s. One knock against the Canadiens, who won 15/24 from the 1950s-1970s, was that for a long time the Original Six was just that, a six team NHL (didn't expand until 1967).

All this is to say, it's really hard to compare across generations. Bill Russell was a great of his time. He accomplished things others have been unable to match, for myriad reasons. And I would say that he was a better person than basketball player, which is a truly amazing accomplishment because he was a great basketball player. But acknowledging the reality of what he dealt with isn't a slight, it's just providing necessary context to try to understand how it's relevant today.

EDIT: A little context...Bill Russell and Boston needed 98 wins to secure their 11 NBA titles in 13 years. Michael Jordan and Chicago needed 90 wins to secure their 6 titles in 8 years. Is that a slight to Russell, or just a statement of fact?

2 natties at USF give some context in his favor too though too. The man clearly elevated teams/programs and had an incredible will to win.