Wojo vs. KO

[forgetful]

Nothing in this post alters the FACT that your previous post was one falsehood after another.

But you've added a few new falsehoods:

1. Buzz inherited a decent roster. VT was 9-22 the year before Buzz arrived. The roster was full of bad players, bad attitudes or both. Before this year started all were gone.

2.Many figured Pierce would start from day one. Price was a major project (ranked sub 200 by all). Nobody who knew anything about basketball thought he would start. Played 6 minutes a game on an 11-22 VT squad as a freshman, 13 as a sophomore before transferring.

Players on that VT roster that he ran off:

Adam Smith  G   Averaged 11 ppg shooting 36% from 3 before Buzz came:  Currently averaging 15 ppg and shooting 41% from 3 for Georgia Tech.  USG 25%; Ortg 119

Trevor Thompson 7' center averaging 11 pts/9 rbs/2 blks for Ohio State

Those two's stats match JJJ and Luke

The other Brew mentioned that were run off as well are equivalent to the MU roster fill-out.  Fine role players, bad starters. 

You say these guys were bad players (not true) or must have had bad attitudes (seems to be working fine for other schools that are a step up from VPI.  So you have little proof there, but MU's top 100 players all had to be great players and have great attitudes but it is Wojo's fault they didn't work out well.

Recruits he either inherited or could bring with him.
Hill>Cohen
Bibbs>Duane
Hudson>Duane/Burton etc.  (he ran him off to Florida)
Pierce, may be a flop, but played 15 minutes per game as a Freshman; Transferred to Penn State and is sitting out this year.

Bibbs and Hudson were both 4-star recruits.  Hill was a star.

What would you rather have:  Hill, Bibbs and Hudson or Cohen?
Luke/JJJ very comparable to Thompson/Smith

2.  For the first half of the season Wojo didn't have a center on the roster.  Our center was 6'7", bad knees Steve Taylor...yes Pierce would have started until Luke was ready...and Luke was no guarantee coming off an injury and a season that was statistically worse than Pierce's freshman year.

[MomofMUltiples]

It's always harder to win at a storied program than at a bottom feeder. It's why guys like Bill Self always leave a Kansas for a DePaul. It's so much easier to win there, dontcha know?

I wasn't addressing the ability to win, I was addressing the fans' feelings about the virtually identical progress of two coaches. And forgetful, they were a perennial bubble team before a bunch of skilled teams from the Old Big East defected to the ACC.  Not sure you can argue that VPI is in the same position as they were last time they had a good coach.

[forgetful]

I wasn't addressing the ability to win, I was addressing the fans' feelings about the virtually identical progress of two coaches. And forgetful, they were a perennial bubble team before a bunch of skilled teams from the Old Big East defected to the ACC.  Not sure you can argue that VPI is in the same position as they were last time they had a good coach.

We are only talking about 2 years.  My point is this.  Perennial ACC bottom feeder is Boston College.

If a job had opened up the same year at BC:

Would Buzz have considered going there?
Would BC pursued Buzz?

The answer to #1 is no, they are a bottom feeder.  VPI had a recent history of success and a very good incoming recruiting class that Buzz was certain he could keep.

The answer to #2 is no.  They wouldn't have spent the money, because neither the university or the boosters, expect success or think they can succeed.  The money was there to get Buzz, because their was still an expectation for success.  Greenberg was fired after 1 bad season, because the boosters/administration considered VPI a team that should regularly be in the NCAAs.  If Buzz doesn't make the NCAAs this year or next, his seat will be very hot.

That is what I was getting at.  Expectations at VPI are lower than at MU, but not by that much.

[MU82]

I like how Wojo vs. KO became Scoop vs. Buzz (and, of course, Lenny)!

We rock!!!!

[Lennys Tap]

We are only talking about 2 years.  My point is this.  Perennial ACC bottom feeder is Boston College.

If a job had opened up the same year at BC:

Would Buzz have considered going there?
Would BC pursued Buzz?

The answer to #1 is no, they are a bottom feeder.  VPI had a recent history of success and a very good incoming recruiting class that Buzz was certain he could keep.

The answer to #2 is no.  They wouldn't have spent the money, because neither the university or the boosters, expect success or think they can succeed.  The money was there to get Buzz, because their was still an expectation for success.  Greenberg was fired after 1 bad season, because the boosters/administration considered VPI a team that should regularly be in the NCAAs.  If Buzz doesn't make the NCAAs this year or next, his seat will be very hot.

That is what I was getting at.  Expectations at VPI are lower than at MU, but not by that much.

How can a guy with your brains write this stuff?

VPI isn't a bottom feeder? Expectations at VPI are not much lower than at Marquette?

Really? The year before Buzz arrived VPI was 2-16 (last) in the ACC. BC was 4-12.

The year before that VPI was 4-14 (last) in the ACC. BC was 7-11.

The year before that VPI was 4-12 (tied for last) in the ACC. BC was also 4-12.

The year before Wojo arrived at MU we were 9-9 in the Big East.

The year before that we were 14-4, Big Eat regular season champs, and made the Elite 8.

The year before that we were 14-4 in the Big East and made the Sweet 16.

And here's a little more history on the team with similar expectations to Marquette's. They've been to the NCAAs 2 times in the 28 years prior to Buzz's arrival and won zero NCAA tournament games in that time.

Yep, Wojo and Buzz inherited programs with similar histories and similar expectations. Sure.

[brewcity77]

Wojo and Buzz have virtually identical results. Both chose the situations they went to carefully. Saying that Buzz should be given credit for having a tougher situation is a load of utter and complete BS because HE PICKED THAT GODDAMN SITUATION!!! Buzz chose to LEAVE here and GO there. He doesn't get bonus points for choosing to jump into a marginal situation and forcing out every player on the roster, some of which who were legitimate D1 star power talents, some of which were viable role-players.

What the crap? Seriously. Giving Buzz extra credit for doing the EXACT SAME JOB Wojo did, and more credit because he decided to run people off (HIS choice) and picked a school more vested in football (HIS choice) that doesn't have as much basketball history as Marquette (HIS choice) is just dumber than dumber than dumber than dumb.

If Buzz wanted a challenge, he should have tried to stick around and abide by the desires of the BoT, and do so with the roster that he built (never mind that multiple players Wojo retained would have left had Buzz stayed). That would have been an impressive rebuild, but he didn't do that because he was afraid he'd lose his reputation if he stayed here longer, so he DELIBERATELY went to a crappy program because it was no-lose.

Character goddamn revealed. He was a coward who couldn't face up to the trainwreck he created, so he grabbed the silver out of the drawer and ran off into the night, expecting that he'd be praised as a genius when he took a crappy school with no expectations or restrictions to the Dance. Give me a freaking break.

[Lennys Tap]

Players on that VT roster that he ran off:

Adam Smith  G   Averaged 11 ppg shooting 36% from 3 before Buzz came:  Currently averaging 15 ppg and shooting 41% from 3 for Georgia Tech.  USG 25%; Ortg 119

Trevor Thompson 7' center averaging 11 pts/9 rbs/2 blks for Ohio State

Those two's stats match JJJ and Luke

The other Brew mentioned that were run off as well are equivalent to the MU roster fill-out.  Fine role players, bad starters. 

You say these guys were bad players (not true) or must have had bad attitudes (seems to be working fine for other schools that are a step up from VPI.  So you have little proof there, but MU's top 100 players all had to be great players and have great attitudes but it is Wojo's fault they didn't work out well.

Recruits he either inherited or could bring with him.
Hill>Cohen
Bibbs>Duane
Hudson>Duane/Burton etc.  (he ran him off to Florida)
Pierce, may be a flop, but played 15 minutes per game as a Freshman; Transferred to Penn State and is sitting out this year.

Bibbs and Hudson were both 4-star recruits.  Hill was a star.

What would you rather have:  Hill, Bibbs and Hudson or Cohen?
Luke/JJJ very comparable to Thompson/Smith

2.  For the first half of the season Wojo didn't have a center on the roster.  Our center was 6'7", bad knees Steve Taylor...yes Pierce would have started until Luke was ready...and Luke was no guarantee coming off an injury and a season that was statistically worse than Pierce's freshman year.

This is tiresome, but here are some more factually false statements in this post:

Hudson was not a 4 star. He was a low 3 star with a composite 191 ranking.

Pierce played 13.8 minutes per game as a freshman, when VPI was 11-22, 2-16. his sophomore year, when VPI was 10-8 in the ACC, he played 6.2 minutes per game. He was not nearly as heralded out of high school, rated in the 200s. Luke and Steve were both top 100.

Hill was a 4 star, but his composite ranking was lower than JJJ's. And he missed last season with a bad knee, contributing nothing to Tech's 10-8 ACC team.

[Lennys Tap]

Wojo and Buzz have virtually identical results. Both chose the situations they went to carefully. Saying that Buzz should be given credit for having a tougher situation is a load of utter and complete BS because HE PICKED THAT GODDAMN SITUATION!!! Buzz chose to LEAVE here and GO there. He doesn't get bonus points for choosing to jump into a marginal situation and forcing out every player on the roster, some of which who were legitimate D1 star power talents, some of which were viable role-players.

What the crap? Seriously. Giving Buzz extra credit for doing the EXACT SAME JOB Wojo did, and more credit because he decided to run people off (HIS choice) and picked a school more vested in football (HIS choice) that doesn't have as much basketball history as Marquette (HIS choice) is just dumber than dumber than dumber than dumb.

If Buzz wanted a challenge, he should have tried to stick around and abide by the desires of the BoT, and do so with the roster that he built (never mind that multiple players Wojo retained would have left had Buzz stayed). That would have been an impressive rebuild, but he didn't do that because he was afraid he'd lose his reputation if he stayed here longer, so he DELIBERATELY went to a crappy program because it was no-lose.

Character goddamn revealed. He was a coward who couldn't face up to the trainwreck he created, so he grabbed the silver out of the drawer and ran off into the night, expecting that he'd be praised as a genius when he took a crappy school with no expectations or restrictions to the Dance. Give me a freaking break.

Be mad at Buzz for leaving if you want. Totally your prerogative. But it doesn't change the fact that the mountain he left to climb was much steeper than the one he was on.

[brewcity77]

I'm fine with him being gone. We're better off with him gone. There's a reason no one stopped him from walking out the door. Good game coach, but came up woefully short in numerous other aspects of the job. But no, he gets no extra credit for picking a bad situation. That's just inane.

[Lennys Tap]

I'm fine with him being gone. We're better off with him gone. There's a reason no one stopped him from walking out the door. Good game coach, but came up woefully short in numerous other aspects of the job. But no, he gets no extra credit for picking a bad situation. That's just inane.

Most people here won't give him extra credit and I understand why. But the non Marquette affiliated basketball world will. Already are, actually.

[forgetful]

This is tiresome, but here are some more factually false statements in this post:

Hudson was not a 4 star. He was a low 3 star with a composite 191 ranking.

Pierce played 13.8 minutes per game as a freshman, when VPI was 11-22, 2-16. his sophomore year, when VPI was 10-8 in the ACC, he played 6.2 minutes per game. He was not nearly as heralded out of high school, rated in the 200s. Luke and Steve were both top 100.

Hill was a 4 star, but his composite ranking was lower than JJJ's. And he missed last season with a bad knee, contributing nothing to Tech's 10-8 ACC team.

For Hudson, I trust ESPN .  He was a 4-star and proved it at the D1 level before transferring.

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/145633/jalen-hudson

As for the rest.  I appreciate your stances, but clearly we disagree.  We differ in that you place a lot of weight on the top 100 rankings, whereas I place more weight on how they perform once they are in college.  I also place a lot of weight on nuances that are not easy to quantify:

e.g. Wojo took over a team that when he showed up only had 9 players, one of whom wasn't eligible for the first semester, another, Mayo was going to be gone regardless, and another Steve whose knees were so bad he was ineffective. He also had much of the core JJJ, Anderson, Burton actively considering transferring.

My point is that one cannot definitively claim anything regarding who had a better scenario, because there are way too many variables.  It becomes a matter of opinion.

The reason I brought it up is people underestimate the talent that was on virginia tech when Buzz came in.  They neglect that Greenberg had established them as a respected mid-level ACC program, that was in year 2 of a failed rebuild.  People also underestimate how bad the situation was at MU. The situations were more similar than they were different.

People championing how great Buzz is doing and criticizing Wojo are not representing reality.  It irritates me, especially how negative the board is lately, so if I'm a little irrational in defense of Wojo I apologize and ask for you to give me some leeway.

Now, my opinion is that MU was better positioned for long-term success, but the roster makeup/new coach placed him about 1-year behind Buzz in terms of program building.  I think Buzz will outperform Wojo this year and next, but after that I'm very optimistic about Wojo having the better program.

[Lennys Tap]

For Hudson, I trust ESPN .  He was a 4-star and proved it at the D1 level before transferring.

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/145633/jalen-hudson

As for the rest.  I appreciate your stances, but clearly we disagree.  We differ in that you place a lot of weight on the top 100 rankings, whereas I place more weight on how they perform once they are in college.  I also place a lot of weight on nuances that are not easy to quantify:

e.g. Wojo took over a team that when he showed up only had 9 players, one of whom wasn't eligible for the first semester, another, Mayo was going to be gone regardless, and another Steve whose knees were so bad he was ineffective. He also had much of the core JJJ, Anderson, Burton actively considering transferring.

My point is that one cannot definitively claim anything regarding who had a better scenario, because there are way too many variables.  It becomes a matter of opinion.

The reason I brought it up is people underestimate the talent that was on virginia tech when Buzz came in.  They neglect that Greenberg had established them as a respected mid-level ACC program, that was in year 2 of a failed rebuild.  People also underestimate how bad the situation was at MU. The situations were more similar than they were different.

People championing how great Buzz is doing and criticizing Wojo are not representing reality.  It irritates me, especially how negative the board is lately, so if I'm a little irrational in defense of Wojo I apologize and ask for you to give me some leeway.

Now, my opinion is that MU was better positioned for long-term success, but the roster makeup/new coach placed him about 1-year behind Buzz in terms of program building.  I think Buzz will outperform Wojo this year and next, but after that I'm very optimistic about Wojo having the better program.

No worries. We are all Marquette fans and Wojo is our coach. I understand the temptation to massage the  facts to elevate him and denigrate Buzz. When folks massage gently I try to keep my mouth shut, but when they make outrageous claims (that Marquette and VPI have similar histories and expectations, for example) the MU fan and historian (and admittedly the Buzz fan) in me cries foul.

I agree that over time Wojo will have a better program at MU than Buzz at VPI. We have a 50 year history of being a vastly superior program and given our $ commitment I don't expect that to change. And of course I don't want it to change. I root for Buzz, but make no mistake - if there were 35 wins to be had between the two and I got to choose how to divide them Wojo and MU would be 35-0. That said, as a fan I'll reserve the right to opine on what I see and not what I'd like to see.

[Marcus92]

Wojo and Buzz have virtually identical results. Both chose the situations they went to carefully. Saying that Buzz should be given credit for having a tougher situation is a load of utter and complete BS because HE PICKED THAT GODDAMN SITUATION!!! Buzz chose to LEAVE here and GO there. He doesn't get bonus points for choosing to jump into a marginal situation and forcing out every player on the roster, some of which who were legitimate D1 star power talents, some of which were viable role-players.

What the crap? Seriously. Giving Buzz extra credit for doing the EXACT SAME JOB Wojo did, and more credit because he decided to run people off (HIS choice) and picked a school more vested in football (HIS choice) that doesn't have as much basketball history as Marquette (HIS choice) is just dumber than dumber than dumber than dumb.

If Buzz wanted a challenge, he should have tried to stick around and abide by the desires of the BoT, and do so with the roster that he built (never mind that multiple players Wojo retained would have left had Buzz stayed). That would have been an impressive rebuild, but he didn't do that because he was afraid he'd lose his reputation if he stayed here longer, so he DELIBERATELY went to a crappy program because it was no-lose.

Character goddamn revealed. He was a coward who couldn't face up to the trainwreck he created, so he grabbed the silver out of the drawer and ran off into the night, expecting that he'd be praised as a genius when he took a crappy school with no expectations or restrictions to the Dance. Give me a freaking break.

One of my favorite posts of all time.

[Marcus92]

Be mad at Buzz for leaving if you want. Totally your prerogative. But it doesn't change the fact that the mountain he left to climb was much steeper than the one he was on.

If Buzz was a truly great coach, he would have gone to Florida A&M. Obviously he lacks the courage and ability to take on a real challenge.

[Marcus92]

Maybe Buzz will start intentionally recruiting inferior players, just to make his job even more challenging.

Or he could wear a blindfold during games.