MU Transfer out that hurt the most?

[The Equalizer]

I mentioned Mbakwe because of the fact he is still playing college basketball right now, but had he been with us he wouldnt be here anymore. So it was merely a point that had he never transfered maybe he wouldnt be anywhere near the player he was this year for gophers before the injury.....and hopefully what he will be next year and thats a beast

I'm not talking about 2011-12, so I'm not sure where the injury comes into play.

2007-08:  Freshman: Mbakwe is at MU, Injury year
2008-09:  Would have been a Soph at MU, instead plays the season at Miami Dade
2009-10:  Junior at MU, instead Sits out the season.
2010-11:  Senior at MU, instead a junior at Minny--Not injured, Plays all 31 games, averages 31 mpg, 13.9 ppg, 10.5 rpg

If I understand you correctly, you question whether Mbakwe would have developed anywhere near what he reached in 10-11 had he stayed at MU.  (One year of Miami Dade + one year sitting out + one year of Tubby) is better for development than three solid years under Buzz?   Sorry, but I don't buy it.

[Hoopaloop]

Fact.
ODB transfer hurt the most by far as we would have one the national title.  The upgrade over Townsend who was the weak link of that team factors in huge.

Opinion.

There is no way of knowing with ODB if other players develop or even play.  Players that were key to our success in 2003, including Novak.  ODB was a selfish player that left because he wanted to play at a certain position.  We do not know if he stayed if the selfishness and the desire to be the man would have cratered the team.

[flash]

Scott Christopherson.  It would have been nice to have had his perimeter scoring and 3 point shooting this season, especially when we went on those pitiful scoring droughts. 

[Lennys Tap]

Scott Christopherson.  It would have been nice to have had his perimeter scoring and 3 point shooting this season, especially when we went on those pitiful scoring droughts. 

He wouldn't have been here this season - had he stayed at MU his eligibility would have been used up in 2010-11.

[Shooter Flatch]

Roman Mueller

[White Shaq]

Two words: Alton. Mason.

[CTWarrior]

To suggest that Blankston, Bradley, Mason, Amo, et al leaving was anything akin to losing Chones

I don't think anyone does equate those guys with Chones.  Chones didn't transfer to another school, so I think most people didn't consider him relevant to the discussion.

Earlier I said Bradley was the one I thought hurt the most.  I stand by that because watching us try to play basketball without a PG was excruciating.

The truth is, I don't think any of the guys that transferred out hurt us all that much.  Mbakwe would have had to stay healthy, Maymon was never gonna reach his potential here for non-basketball reasons, and some of the other guys that left were solid but not necessarily a good fit for us and were better off leaving.  Also, nothing occurs in a vacuum.  Every departure opened a door for another player.  For example, if Maymon stays, maybe Crowder doesn't come.  So we lost a good player and were able to replace him with a better one.  I feel better about about Buzz replacing transfers with quality than I did with Crean.

[Dawson Rental]

from a pure talent and dominant standpoint at a position we always need help, it has to be Mbakwe but considering the fact that hed be long gone by now had he stayed at MU there is no saying what player hed actually be.

A real inside presence to play with the three amigos their last year?  Definitely Mbakwe.  Done.

[dgies9156]

If we had lost by 2 or 5 or even 8 to Kansas, I could see making the argument that ODB's presence might have made a difference, but thinking he could have caused a 35 point swing is wishful thinking.   

+10000000000000000000000000

After the Pitt and Kentucky games in Minneapolis in 2003, be began believing our own press clippings. The edge that we had in Minneapolis gave way to an overconfidence against Kansas that was exploited to the hilt. We looked like my grade school team playing the Los Angeles Lakers or something.

If there was ever a moment where I thought TV Tommy was badly out-coached, it was in the Final Four against Kansas. Our guys just weren't ready for the challenge before them. They somehow forgot that videotape had found its way to Kansas and that, gee, they saw what DWade did to Kentucky.

ODB might of helped, but he was not by himself going to get us to the promised land.

[dgies9156]

NO

Chones left for the ABA. He didn't transfer.

Incidentally, I would argue that if you are going the Chones route, then you also ought to be thinking Maurice Lucas leaving for the ABA in 1974. We were coming off the NCAA Championship in 1973-1974 and had all the pieces back, plus Butch Lee. We were primed for another run to the Final Four when Lucas cut the heart out of that team.

There was some waivering and Marquette was ready to go to court to enjoin the NCAA from prohibiting Lucas from playing -- and then it all fell apart.

[Dawson Rental]

Roman Mueller

He transferred?  On bad days, I wonder if he's still there.

[4everwarriors]

Biggest sleeper since Rip Van Winkle.

[warthog-driver]

I don't think anyone does equate those guys with Chones.  Chones didn't transfer to another school, so I think most people didn't consider him relevant to the discussion.

I think Lenny and I opened up the definition to player departing for whatever reason. Both Chones and Lucas left early and their departures crippled strong teams that were poised to win it all.

Another early departure was Larry McNeill. Al often said The Hawk was his greatest player ever. It is ridiculous the amount of talent Al brought in to MU. The goddam ABA derailed what could have been a much more significant run.

[Golden Avalanche]

Crean should be ashamed for what he did to DJ. He was in the Top 15 on the draft boards. The Baked Behemoth talked that young man out of multi-generational financial security. Now, he fights for European table scraps while the Bloomington Blowhard leads post-game chants at Assembly Hall.

You're assuming an awful lot in this post.

[brewcity77]

I think it's tough to say, but here are my thoughts on the five biggest losses of the past decade or so.

Blankson: That Final Four team was our best of the past 34 years, and would have been better with Blankson. We can debate all day about how other guys would have developed, but Wade coexisted with him for a year and would have again. I liked Townsend, but he was no ODB. I don't know if we would have won the NC, but we certainly would have fared better against Kansas with him in the lineup (though as mentioned, 35 points is a big swing). I imagine he would have helped us get back to the NCAAs as another option for the 2003-04 team.

Christopherson: I think it's important to take the context of when he'd have been here. First, he'd barely have sniffed the court in 2008-09 as a sophomore behind the Amigos. He would have got time in 09-10, but that team didn't need another three-point shooter. Would he have helped? Yeah, but he wouldn't have radically changed that team. Where he would have helped most is in 10-11, when we could have used another shooter and someone who could take some of the PG role that Junior wasn't quite ready for and Buycks wasn't quite suited for. But does he make that team Elite Eight? I don't think so. Sad to see him go, but I really do think this worked out best for both parties.

Mbakwe: If you're talking strictly talents, this might be the biggest loss. We lost three years of a guy at a position that was highly needed. He would have likely started as an undersized center for two years, but been better than Burke in 2008-09 and bigger (and better suited for the position) than Lazar in 2009-10. He also would have given us some length and athleticism inside that was missing against UNC in 2011. Still think we lose that game, though.

Mason: Surprised he hasn't been mentioned more, I think his move worked out badly for both sides. Mason never reached the potential he was starting to scratch (11.9/5.6 as a soph) after getting to LSU and Marquette could have used another experienced scorer with Novak. Of course, the Amigos stepped in admirably from day one, but the pressure would have been less with Mason still around, and Crean might have made it out of the first weekend one of those two years with Mason in the lineup.

Bradley: Of the five guys I'm going to mention, I think this is the biggest loss. Diener's injury in 04-05 was backbreaking and having Bradley around would have certainly made that more manageable, and I think we'd have made the tournament. We went 14-4 before his injury and 5-8 after it. He played in 5 of those 13 games and nearly got us a bid back (going 3-2), but that team was woeful without him. Bradley would have been a big difference maker. I also think he would have helped the Amigos, especially James, who despite being excellent from day one, might have had a better development curve if he had been able to learn behind Bradley for a year.

[Dawson Rental]

I think it's tough to say, but here are my thoughts on the five biggest losses of the past decade or so.

Blankson: That Final Four team was our best of the past 34 years, and would have been better with Blankson. We can debate all day about how other guys would have developed, but Wade coexisted with him for a year and would have again. I liked Townsend, but he was no ODB. I don't know if we would have won the NC, but we certainly would have fared better against Kansas with him in the lineup (though as mentioned, 35 points is a big swing). I imagine he would have helped us get back to the NCAAs as another option for the 2003-04 team.

Christopherson: I think it's important to take the context of when he'd have been here. First, he'd barely have sniffed the court in 2008-09 as a sophomore behind the Amigos. He would have got time in 09-10, but that team didn't need another three-point shooter. Would he have helped? Yeah, but he wouldn't have radically changed that team. Where he would have helped most is in 10-11, when we could have used another shooter and someone who could take some of the PG role that Junior wasn't quite ready for and Buycks wasn't quite suited for. But does he make that team Elite Eight? I don't think so. Sad to see him go, but I really do think this worked out best for both parties.

Mbakwe: If you're talking strictly talents, this might be the biggest loss. We lost three years of a guy at a position that was highly needed. He would have likely started as an undersized center for two years, but been better than Burke in 2008-09 and bigger (and better suited for the position) than Lazar in 2009-10. He also would have given us some length and athleticism inside that was missing against UNC in 2011. Still think we lose that game, though.

Mason: Surprised he hasn't been mentioned more, I think his move worked out badly for both sides. Mason never reached the potential he was starting to scratch (11.9/5.6 as a soph) after getting to LSU and Marquette could have used another experienced scorer with Novak. Of course, the Amigos stepped in admirably from day one, but the pressure would have been less with Mason still around, and Crean might have made it out of the first weekend one of those two years with Mason in the lineup.

Bradley: Of the five guys I'm going to mention, I think this is the biggest loss. Diener's injury in 04-05 was backbreaking and having Bradley around would have certainly made that more manageable, and I think we'd have made the tournament. We went 14-4 before his injury and 5-8 after it. He played in 5 of those 13 games and nearly got us a bid back (going 3-2), but that team was woeful without him. Bradley would have been a big difference maker. I also think he would have helped the Amigos, especially James, who despite being excellent from day one, might have had a better development curve if he had been able to learn behind Bradley for a year.

A very well thought out post for the first 80%.  I particularly agree with your assessment of "point blanken" Mbakwe. Then you have to go and say Bradley was the biggest loss!  He was a very good, but short, two guard.  He just did not have point skills.  He was a sub six foot guard who really could fill the hoop in HS to the tune of 35 points or so a game. His failure to develop point skills is the reason he didn't get PT at MU and transferred.  At Wichita State he was allowed to play his game, and was able to really contribute.  MU would have been far worse off trying to have Karon bring the ball up the court instead of Jackson, IMO.

[Golden Avalanche]

I think it's tough to say, but here are my thoughts on the five biggest losses of the past decade or so.

Blankson: That Final Four team was our best of the past 34 years, and would have been better with Blankson. We can debate all day about how other guys would have developed, but Wade coexisted with him for a year and would have again. I liked Townsend, but he was no ODB. I don't know if we would have won the NC, but we certainly would have fared better against Kansas with him in the lineup (though as mentioned, 35 points is a big swing). I imagine he would have helped us get back to the NCAAs as another option for the 2003-04 team.

I just don't get how this ludicrous idea is parroted so often in this thread.

Do people willfully ignore that the performance by Kansas that night was one of the greatest Roy Williams has ever coached? Do they willfully ignore a career game from Langford? Do they willfully ignore an unstoppable secondary break from perhaps the best coach ever to teach the secondary break? Do they willfully ignore that Kansas' NBA draft picks were experienced upperclassmen whereas our NBA draft picks were two Freshmen and a second year player?

MU hung with that squad for seven minutes and got embarrassed for 33 minutes. ODB wasn't going to help the cause against a "pinnacle" performance as mentioned by Roy Boy. Frankly, I'm not sure had Kentucky (who was clearly the best team in the land that season) beat MU that they'd be able to beat Kansas on the night.

[lurch91]

Crean should be ashamed for what he did to DJ. He was in the Top 15 on the draft boards. The Baked Behemoth talked that young man out of multi-generational financial security. Now, he fights for European table scraps while the Bloomington Blowhard leads post-game chants at Assembly Hall.

Regardless where DJ would have been drafted, I think it's ironic that Tyshawn Taylor list one reason he didn't come to MU was that Crean told him (Taylor) that DJ was leaving school after his junior year and Taylor would have the starting PG position all to himself.

[brewcity77]

I just don't get how this ludicrous idea is parroted so often in this thread.

Do people willfully ignore that the performance by Kansas that night was one of the greatest Roy Williams has ever coached? Do they willfully ignore a career game from Langford? Do they willfully ignore an unstoppable secondary break from perhaps the best coach ever to teach the secondary break? Do they willfully ignore that Kansas' NBA draft picks were experienced upperclassmen whereas our NBA draft picks were two Freshmen and a second year player?

Well...to be fair I made sure to mention 35 points was a big swing. I think we'd have done better, but unlike others, I'm not at all convinced we'd have won. All I'm saying is we aren't 35 point losers, not that we're winners.

[brewcity77]

A very well thought out post for the first 80%.  I particularly agree with your assessment of "point blanken" Mbakwe. Then you have to go and say Bradley was the biggest loss!  He was a very good, but short, two guard.  He just did not have point skills.  He was a sub six foot guard who really could fill the hoop in HS to the tune of 35 points or so a game. His failure to develop point skills is the reason he didn't get PT at MU and transferred.  At Wichita State he was allowed to play his game, and was able to really contribute.  MU would have been far worse off trying to have Karon bring the ball up the court instead of Jackson, IMO.

He wouldn't have been a perfect PG, but he certainly improved in that regard at WSU, averaging a 1.6/1 A/T ratio. Not perfect, but an improvement. I think what we get out of Bradley staying is another NCAA berth. I suppose an argument could be made for any of them, but we were exposed without Diener. Marcus did fine considering, but that was not an ideal role for him, and the W/L record supported it.

[warthog-driver]

ODB vs Jim Chones???