Endless Internet Argument - A Summertime Tradition

[ChicosBailBonds]

Actually, if that lasts more than 4 hours,  I am pretty sure that is a side effect you should consult your physician about.

Fortunately I haven't arrived at that point in my life that I need to be sitting in a bath tub next to my wife for that to happen.   

[Dr. Blackheart]

Fortunately I haven't arrived at that point in my life that I need to be sitting in a bath tub next to my wife for that to happen.  

Me either...I just overheard it on a tv ad....although you would have a place to hang your hat  

[4everwarriors]

Fortunately I haven't arrived at that point in my life that I need to be sitting in a bath tub next to my wife for that to happen.   

So, you're really not 60 yet?

[NersEllenson]

I'll take a shot at that, even though it wasn't directed at me.

Buzz inherited 4 players that ended up in the top 10 all-time in MU scoring, a 3 straight NCAA tournament team, etc, etc

Crean inherited one varsity player that was a walk-on the year before and averaged less than 3 minutes per game and scored less than 30 points his entire career.

MU isn't on probation.  IU is.   The IU Administration, from the President on down to Fred Glass, laid out exactly who IU could go after and who they couldn't.  That mean a lot of players in the first few years were off limits to them.  There would be no quick fixes, plain and simple.

So that's for starters.   You can go from there if you wish, but to ignore that is about as silly as it gets.  Don't get me wrong, Crean's a d-bag but your question is bizarre....really, it is.

Did I ask for an explanation of IU's on court performance measured against MU's the last 2 years?  NO.  So what do the Big 3 and Lazar have to do with anything?  I know this is the argument you and 84 have been trumpeting for the last 2 years..but all of Crean's recruits are gone at MU now.  I asked for an explanation as to how you can explain the differnce in talent level at MU and IU at present day??  The bolded part above is a new offering on your part Chicos - now IU could only go after certain types of players in Crean's first 2 years?  Hey Tom - come Coach here and get us back on track, but you are restricted as to what types of players you can bring in.  Furthermore, even though Indiana shows up on many of the same prospect lists that Marquette does - Indiana still has had to bring in a certain type of player.  Don't argue JUCO's because we know Crean has brought in several of those in the last 2 years.  I'm not surprised 84 didn't answer the question, because there really is no comparison to the state of the two programs at present day. 

And let's not imply that the probation IU is on is any type of death sentence or highly restrictive type of probation. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

You're right Ners....having a successful program with successful players doesn't lead to more successful players coming in behind as they leave.   Instead, coming into a program that is decimated and on probation is the way to go and sure fired path to success, especially when you are also handcuffed by your administration with no quick fixes....unlike Kentucky, Memphis, etc  


And you, quite frankly, know nothing of the restrictions internally that were put on IU by Glass and McRobbie or you wouldn't have made that last statement.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So, you're really not 60 yet?

Not yet....is that when you lost rigidity?       RIMSHOT   

[4everwarriors]

I'll let you know when I get there.

[Marquette84]

If you believe every letter of the law in college basketball recruiting is being followed to a "T," and interpreted in the most strict way - you are naive.  All high-major schools push the envelop about as far as they can.    Villanova has had a number of players go to prep school.  Teams oversign.  Kids transfer and break their initial commitment to universities.  Buzz had to replace Taylor and Williams who were let out of their LOI's.

So you're saying its okay if Buzz cheats a little bit because all schools do it?

BTW, what Villanova player had his LOI yanked?

[Marquette84]

Correct. Damien Saunders' SAT scores were fine. Tragedy what Crean did to that young man.

Other than offer him a scholarship, what did Crean do to Saunders? 

[NersEllenson]

You're right Ners....having a successful program with successful players doesn't lead to more successful players coming in behind as they leave.   Instead, coming into a program that is decimated and on probation is the way to go and sure fired path to success, especially when you are also handcuffed by your administration with no quick fixes....unlike Kentucky, Memphis, etc  


And you, quite frankly, know nothing of the restrictions internally that were put on IU by Glass and McRobbie or you wouldn't have made that last statement.

Coupld things Chicos - It's Indiana.  It's Indiana - pretty much guaranteed sure-fire success, right?  Isn't that why TC went there?  Why would he leave MU?  Not for more money...Okay, can you enlighten me as to the "interanl restrictions put on IU as far as recruiting?"  I'm aware a school HAS to self-impost restrictions due to improper recruiting in the past.  But what restrictions have made this such an uphill battle for TC?  Please do share. Thanks.

[NersEllenson]

So you're saying its okay if Buzz cheats a little bit because all schools do it?

BTW, what Villanova player had his LOI yanked?

This is now the 3rd time you are asking me to clarify a point, which I've been willing to do..but I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how the IU and MU program present day, are at such different talent levels?  Chicos has been trying for you..and threw out the inherited 4 of Top 10 scorers in program history...and that because we had recent success it would trump It's Indiana, It's Indiana...but Zar, DJ, Rel, and Matthews aren't relevant anymore..and Crean has had the same amount of time as Buzz has had to build a roster - and the disparity in talent is startling.  Please fill me in.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'm still waiting for you to address the state of the Indiana basketball program currently, against the Marquette program.  Both Buzz and TC have had the same amount of time to impact their program - why such a disparity in talent?   I mean Buzz doesn't have 6-8 Top 100 players in his own state, nor is Marqueette the flagship program of the state of Wisconsin - how is he assembling Top 100/Juco 1st team All American/Player of the Year talent up and down the roster, and Tom Crean can't do that at Indiana?

I don't want to get tied into the minutia, but WTF does IU and TC sucking ass have to do with Buzz Williams or DJ Newbill?

IU does suck pretty bad, but that really has doesn't have anything to do with Buzz Williams. Nothing.

Maybe you guys should start another Buzz vs TC thread. That would be awesome.

[77ncaachamps]

[Marquette84]

This is now the 3rd time you are asking me to clarify a point, which I've been willing to do..but I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how the IU and MU program present day, are at such different talent levels?  Chicos has been trying for you..and threw out the inherited 4 of Top 10 scorers in program history...and that because we had recent success it would trump It's Indiana, It's Indiana...but Zar, DJ, Rel, and Matthews aren't relevant anymore..and Crean has had the same amount of time as Buzz has had to build a roster - and the disparity in talent is startling.  Please fill me in.

Didn't you already answer this?  You claim Buzz is willing to "push the envelope" or even break a few rules (like adding conditions to LOIs) in order to get better players. 

BTW, what Villanova player had his LOI yanked?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Coupld things Chicos - It's Indiana.  It's Indiana - pretty much guaranteed sure-fire success, right?  Isn't that why TC went there?  Why would he leave MU?  Not for more money...Okay, can you enlighten me as to the "interanl restrictions put on IU as far as recruiting?"  I'm aware a school HAS to self-impost restrictions due to improper recruiting in the past.  But what restrictions have made this such an uphill battle for TC?  Please do share. Thanks.

Ners...he did make more money at IU.  So you're wrong there.

Secondly, last I checked he's only been there two years. 

There's a reason he got a contract as long as he did and there's a BIGGER reason why it was extended before one game was played....because the restrictions that were put on the staff.  IU was embarrassed, something they don't take kindly to.  This is a proud proud university and they were flat out not going to have this happen to them again in terms of probation.   That meant cleaning it up with no borderline kids the first few years.  No Kentucky or Memphis shortcuts.  Glass and McRobbie have made it clear to the entire athletic department that this will never happen again.  I'm sorry you don't understand this and continue to want to compare to Kentucky or some other school with zero standards, zero academics, etc, but you continue to do so for some inane reason.

You continue to forget IU lost their best player last year before the Big Ten started...that cost them dearly.

Crean = douche?  Check. Agreed

Crean = self centered?  Check.  Agreed


Now, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

[NersEllenson]

Ners...he did make more money at IU.  So you're wrong there.

Secondly, last I checked he's only been there two years. 

There's a reason he got a contract as long as he did and there's a BIGGER reason why it was extended before one game was played....because the restrictions that were put on the staff.  IU was embarrassed, something they don't take kindly to.  This is a proud proud university and they were flat out not going to have this happen to them again in terms of probation.   That meant cleaning it up with no borderline kids the first few years.  No Kentucky or Memphis shortcuts.  Glass and McRobbie have made it clear to the entire athletic department that this will never happen again.  I'm sorry you don't understand this and continue to want to compare to Kentucky or some other school with zero standards, zero academics, etc, but you continue to do so for some inane reason.

You continue to forget IU lost their best player last year before the Big Ten started...that cost them dearly.

Crean = douche?  Check. Agreed

Crean = self centered?  Check.  Agreed


Now, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

We've been down this debate many times over - unfortunately I got involved with 84 continuing to belabor how bad Buzz behaved in this Newbill situation, and how Crean in the Saunders situation is absolved of any guilt.  Chicos - at least you post new topics an dcontent that aren't Tom Crean related, and debate many things non Tom Crean related.  84?  Seems the only topics he gets involved with are Tom Crean, or to discredit Buzz Williams.

At the end of the day 84 has no good explanation fow how the state of MU and IU are so different with regard to talent on the current roster.  He has lamely used a point I made to imply that we are only this talented because Buzz pushes the limits of the recruiting rules in place (just as every other high major program does).  It is a competitive business, and you do everything you can to the extent the rules allow...

The last reality is that Tom Crean has been able to bring in recruits from JUCO's, and IU shows up on many of the "interest/offer" lists of players MU is also recruiting.  The handcuffs you speak of on Crean at IU aren't too restrictive.  The bottom line is that Bzz has done a better job than most anyone would have guessed with bringing talent to MU..and maybe MU has more talent on its roster 1-12 now, than ever before in program history..so..Crean has a lot to "match up against," if looking at the two programs at present day.

Idid not intend to have this devlove into another Tom Crean/Buzz Williams debate..but rather point out that 84 has 2 dimensions to his content on this board - defend Tom Crean toill death, or discredit Buzz Williams at any opportunity.  I leave the last word to you..I'm out.

[Litehouse]

Didn't you already answer this?  You claim Buzz is willing to "push the envelope" or even break a few rules (like adding conditions to LOIs) in order to get better players. 

BTW, what Villanova player had his LOI yanked?

I believe the Nova player people are referring to is Markus Kennedy.  He signed for the 2010 class, but will now spend another year in prep school and be part of Nova's 2011 class.
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/colleges/20100420_Recruit_Markus_Kennedy_won_t_join_Villanova_basketball_until_2011.html

[Marquette84]

We've been down this debate many times over - unfortunately I got involved with 84 continuing to belabor how bad Buzz behaved in this Newbill situation, and how Crean in the Saunders situation is absolved of any guilt.  Chicos - at least you post new topics an dcontent that aren't Tom Crean related, and debate many things non Tom Crean related.  84?  Seems the only topics he gets involved with are Tom Crean, or to discredit Buzz Williams.

You're wrong about which thread I get involved with.  I actually started the thread on the final 2010 RSCI, as just one example.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21034.0

At the end of the day 84 has no good explanation fow how the state of MU and IU are so different with regard to talent on the current roster. 

As many others have pointed out this is an irrelevant point.  Its no different than trying to make the case that O'Neill was a lousy recruiter at MU because he failed at Tennessee or Northwestern. 

Idid not intend to have this devlove into another Tom Crean/Buzz Williams debate.

Actually, you DID intend to turn this into a discussion of Tom Crean.  I asked you to come up with your scenario on Newbill, and your response was a demand I explain an irrelevant point about Crean's recruiting at IU. 

.but rather point out that 84 has 2 dimensions to his content on this board - defend Tom Crean toll death, or discredit Buzz Williams at any opportunity. 

Again, I have to remind you that I was on the Buzz bandwagon long before you were.  Go back and read the threads from April of 2008. 

The difference is that I don't hate Crean, nor feel that Buzz is beyond reproach.  He's making some mistakes, and the difference between you and me is that I'm at least willing to call him on them.  Nor am I going to make the same lies and misrepresentations about Crean in an ill-fated attempt to make Buzz look better by comparison.

Lets face it, everything to you is filtered through a "how does this make Crean look bad or Buzz look good," to the point where you fabricate things ("Crean ran off Saunders") or condone cheating ("all programs push the envelope") to fit with your agenda.

The irony is that you tear down Buzz all the time.

For example, I complemented him on the talent he brought in with Butler and DJO and Buycks and thought he'd keep the program in the top half of the league.  You argued that those recruits weren't very good, and therefore we would struggle. 

I said Buzz had more talent last year than Crean did in his worst season, and you argued that I was wrong, that the "cupboard was bare" even though it consisted of mostly Buzz's own recruits.  The fact that the supposedly "bare" cupboard included one of 15 top guards invited to the elite Chris Paul camp, one of the top 10 returning seniors-to-be (and named most underrated player in NCAA), and a first round draft pick--only the 2nd since 1978.  But you still claim Buzz had little to work with. 

In this argument, I assume that Buzz is generally honest but screwed up big time with Newbill.  Meanwhile you think its okay for him to cheat (by making additional conditions on the NLI) because "all schools do it."

And you think I'M trying to discredit Buzz?  You're doing a damn good job yourself.

[NersEllenson]

You're wrong about which thread I get involved with.  I actually started the thread on the final 2010 RSCI, as just one example.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21034.0

As many others have pointed out this is an irrelevant point.  Its no different than trying to make the case that O'Neill was a lousy recruiter at MU because he failed at Tennessee or Northwestern. 

Actually, you DID intend to turn this into a discussion of Tom Crean.  I asked you to come up with your scenario on Newbill, and your response was a demand I explain an irrelevant point about Crean's recruiting at IU. 

Again, I have to remind you that I was on the Buzz bandwagon long before you were.  Go back and read the threads from April of 2008. 

The difference is that I don't hate Crean, nor feel that Buzz is beyond reproach.  He's making some mistakes, and the difference between you and me is that I'm at least willing to call him on them.  Nor am I going to make the same lies and misrepresentations about Crean in an ill-fated attempt to make Buzz look better by comparison.

Lets face it, everything to you is filtered through a "how does this make Crean look bad or Buzz look good," to the point where you fabricate things ("Crean ran off Saunders") or condone cheating ("all programs push the envelope") to fit with your agenda.

The irony is that you tear down Buzz all the time.

For example, I complemented him on the talent he brought in with Butler and DJO and Buycks and thought he'd keep the program in the top half of the league.  You argued that those recruits weren't very good, and therefore we would struggle. 

I said Buzz had more talent last year than Crean did in his worst season, and you argued that I was wrong, that the "cupboard was bare" even though it consisted of mostly Buzz's own recruits.  The fact that the supposedly "bare" cupboard included one of 15 top guards invited to the elite Chris Paul camp, one of the top 10 returning seniors-to-be (and named most underrated player in NCAA), and a first round draft pick--only the 2nd since 1978.  But you still claim Buzz had little to work with. 

In this argument, I assume that Buzz is generally honest but screwed up big time with Newbill.  Meanwhile you think its okay for him to cheat (by making additional conditions on the NLI) because "all schools do it."

And you think I'M trying to discredit Buzz?  You're doing a damn good job yourself.

Blah, blah, blah...another long-winded rebuttal that isn't going to change my mind (or anyone elses) about your intentions.  Don't some here think you actually might be Joanie Crean?  That says enough in itself.  AND THANKS FOR STILL NOT OFFERING AN EXPLANATION AS TO HOW MU AND IU PROGARMS ARE AT SUCH DIFFERENT LEVELS WITH CURRENT TALENT...when both Buzz and Tommy have had the exact same amount of time at their university.

[Marquette84]

Blah, blah, blah...another long-winded rebuttal that isn't going to change my mind (or anyone elses) about your intentions.  Don't some here think you actually might be Joanie Crean?  That says enough in itself.  AND THANKS FOR STILL NOT OFFERING AN EXPLANATION AS TO HOW MU AND IU PROGARMS ARE AT SUCH DIFFERENT LEVELS WITH CURRENT TALENT...when both Buzz and Tommy have had the exact same amount of time at their university.

Dude, what the hell is your problem?  Every single one of your posts is about how you hate Crean, love Buzz, or call someone out because they're not Mr. Buzz Fanboi/Crean Hater just like you.

Now you're going bezerk because I won't answer your stupid, bating, irrelevant question about IU?  Chicos answered it.  He gave a damn fine answer.  I agree with him, and I agree with the others who said you were irrelevant for even asking it.  Let it go already.

[NersEllenson]

Dude, what the hell is your problem?  Every single one of your posts is about how you hate Crean, love Buzz, or call someone out because they're not Mr. Buzz Fanboi/Crean Hater just like you.

Now you're going bezerk because I won't answer your stupid, bating, irrelevant question about IU?  Chicos answered it.  He gave a damn fine answer.  I agree with him, and I agree with the others who said you were irrelevant for even asking it.  Let it go already.

I don't like because you are unsafe.  You are everybodys problem.  Thanks for playing, Tommy Crean Fanboi.  It is impossible to have a relevant debate with you because you see everything through the Tan Colored Lens of your man crush Tom Crean.  I think it is time for you to let Tom Crean go already.  He's yesterday's news at MU - we have a much better coach now.  Your personal TC crusade may now come to an end.