MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MuggsyB on September 17, 2022, 10:55:44 AM
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Could this be the year where we turn the corner, literally and figuratively, in the backcourt.? During our decade of mediocrity we have have not had an explosive blow-by guy with handles. ....a.k.a. zoomability. When you have a kid that can get into the paint and create it absolutely changes everything.
Jones squared could be the beginning of a new era in MU hoops. The emergence of Kam's game excites me greatly. He's a young man that can get buckets a la Nick Van Exel. What I think we will see is more effectiveness off the bounce from Kam, increased upper body strength, and better control and shot selection.
And let's not forget Stevie and Kolek. We have great potential on the perimeter and guys with multiple skill-sets. Obviously the glass and interior is a bit of a question mark. We need O-Max and Oso in particular to find a way to defend inside and usurp rebs. But I expect a lot of small ball in '22-23. Maybe Joplin breaks out? Losing Lewis clearly hurts but we have a number of guys capable of elevating their play. I fully expect this group to be super competitive and as good or better than last year. There will be more balance, more transition hoops, less predictability and an exciting group 1-12.
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Could this be the year where we turn the corner, literally and figuratively, in the backcourt.? During our decade of mediocrity we have have not had an explosive blow-by guy with handles. ....a.k.a. zoomability. When you have a kid that can get into the paint and create it absolutely changes everything.
Jones squared could be the beginning of a new era in MU hoops. The emergence of Kam's game excites me greatly. He's a young man that can get buckets a la Nick Van Exel. What I think we will see is more effectiveness off the bounce from Kam, increased upper body strength, and better control and shot selection.
And let's not forget Stevie and Kolek. We have great potential on the perimeter and guys with multiple skill-sets. Obviously the glass and interior is a bit of a question mark. We need O-Max and Oso in particular to find a way to defend inside and usurp rebs. But I expect a lot of small ball in '22-23. Maybe Joplin breaks out? Losing Lewis clearly hurts but we have a number of guys capable of elevating their play. I fully expect this group to be super competitive and as good or better than last year. There will be more balance, more transition hoops, less predictability and an exciting group 1-12.
Well said. I believe you're point on. Let's play ball!
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Kam could easily be the best guard next year because of his offensive upside.
But only Emarion, Joplin, and the walkons had worse NET ratings than him last year. Lets pump the breaks a little. Its not "early september" hype worthy.
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Lets pump the breaks a little. Its not "early september" hype worthy.
Let him be. Muggsy gotta muggsy.
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I needed a zoomability reference, its been a while.
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Let him be. Muggsy gotta muggsy.
Here's Muggsy:
Put on Marquette gear, start a new thread, put gear away. Get new Marquette gear, put on, start a new thread......repeat.
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Here's Muggsy:
Put on Marquette gear, start a new thread, put gear away. Get new Marquette gear, put on, start a new thread......repeat.
LMAO!
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Here's Muggsy:
Put on Marquette gear, start a new thread, put gear away. Get new Marquette gear, put on, start a new thread......repeat.
Exactly.
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I needed a zoomability reference, its been a while.
I liked the “usurp” reference to rebounds. 😂
Muggsy is right….We need to establish some BigEast backcourt hegemony. And it starts with big, er medium size (for now) guards snaring some unlikely rebounds.
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ppl putting massive expectations on the 5 10.frosh.
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I liked the “usurp” reference to rebounds. 😂
Muggsy is right….We need to establish some BigEast backcourt hegemony. And it starts with big, er medium size (for now) guards snaring some unlikely rebounds.
No expectations for rebounds, rebounds no matta.
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I think Stevie sees the most minutes at Pg this year. We haven’t had a player on the roster in years whose defense gave him minutes early in his career. Love the energy and effectiveness he brought day 1 on that side of the floor. By the end of the season, he was making plays on the offensive end of the floor as well. Hes going to be one of if not the most improved player next year imo.
I see Jones as a similar energy type role guy off the bench that Stevie played last year. Completely different players but will fill the same spot/need in the rotation this year.
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ppl putting massive expectations on the 5 10.frosh.
A few. Not that widespread. I think we will need more from Gold than we do from Sean. I think SJ (perfect for a Jesuit school) and Ross are going to be depth and situational.
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A few. Not that widespread. I think we will need more from Gold than we do from Sean. I think SJ (perfect for a Jesuit school) and Ross are going to be depth and situational.
Stevie was what I'd call a "situational" player last season. He'd most sit, with many games of only 2 or 3 or 5 minutes, but then Shaka would throw him out there to harass an opposing guard.
I sure hope we get a lot more out of Sean Jones than a similar "situational" contribution, tower, at least the way I think we'd both define the term.
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A few. Not that widespread. I think we will need more from Gold than we do from Sean. I think SJ (perfect for a Jesuit school) and Ross are going to be depth and situational.
Gold can be a difference maker.
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My roster assessment:
Tier 1: Penciled in starters
Kolek
O-Max
Oso
Tier 2: Fringe starters and rotation players
S. Jones
Mitchell
K. Jones
Wright
Gold
Tier 3: Wildcard
Joplin
Tier 4: Wait and see
Ross
Itejere
Injured/Probable redshirt
Ellis
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I would move Kam to 1.1 tier
Wright to a 1.25
I believe Jop will be a Tier 1.5player.
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Gold in front of Joplin is criminal
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I would move Kam to 1.1 tier
Wright to a 1.25
I believe Jop will be a Tier 1.5player.
Wrightsil and Joplin's production are a huge key to the ultimate success of this team. My gut feeling is Gold won't play all that much.
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Wrightsil and Joplin's production are a huge key to the ultimate success of this team. My gut feeling is Gold won't play all that much.
Insiders please correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Gold supposed to be a major contributor this year? I thought he was supposed to be one of the better players in practice. Maybe that’s wishful thinking on my part. Don’t want Froling part two.
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Insiders please correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Gold supposed to be a major contributor this year? I thought he was supposed to be one of the better players in practice. Maybe that’s wishful thinking on my part. Don’t want Froling part two.
I hope I'm wrong but it is usually takes time for bigs to develop. I fully expect Wrightsil to be a major contributor. My guess is we start either:
Kolek
Kam
ZWright
O-Max
Oso
Or we start Stevie instead of Zach.
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Kolek expectations?
I really hope he finds his shot this season.
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Gold in front of Joplin is criminal
Only, if Gold is not good.
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Wrightsil and Joplin's production are a huge key to the ultimate success of this team. My gut feeling is Gold won't play all that much.
I think we are worse than 9th place, if Gold is not good enough to play a significant role.
Joplin would need a huge step up (which is certainly possible) to be a game changer.
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I think we are worse than 9th place, if Gold is not good enough to play a significant role.
Joplin would need a huge step up (which is certainly possible) to be a game changer.
9th???!!!
No confidence in Oso?
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Only, if Gold is not good.
Why don’t you charge for these takes ?!
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I think we are worse than 9th place, if Gold is not good enough to play a significant role.
Joplin would need a huge step up (which is certainly possible) to be a game changer.
What makes you think gold will be a starter/main contributor?
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A fine nomination for the position of President of COLE.
I think we are worse than 9th place, if Gold is not good enough to play a significant role.
Joplin would need a huge step up (which is certainly possible) to be a game changer.
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I think we have enough talent/options for a successful season without Gold being a major contributor.
He could be an X-Factor in significantly over performing though.
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He is big that can shoot 3’s, he will play
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He is big that can shoot 3’s, he will play
We’re in big trouble if he’s ahead of Joplin or Omax on the depth chart.
His best shot at consistent minutes will be behind oso. He may be a decent shooter next year, but lack of athleticism and strength will limit his minutes year 1.
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We’re in big trouble if he’s ahead of Joplin or Omax on the depth chart.
His best shot at consistent minutes will be behind oso. He may be a decent shooter next year, but lack of athleticism and strength will limit his minutes year 1.
Panda, do you know this from the coaching staff or watching him play extensively?
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Panda, do you know this from the coaching staff or watching him play extensively?
No inside info - just my opinion that if he’s playinng in front of omax and Joplin we’ve either unearthed one of the best talents in cbb or two of our main contributors for next season made zero improvements from last season to this season (unlikely).
I am curious to see if hes able to play the 5. Mainly on the defensive end. That will be his most positive impact spot on next years team as we’re extremely thin there .
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He is big that can shoot 3’s, he will play
But if cannot defend, he will not.
Joplin can shoot the three, but his D was behind last year…..so he was limited.
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Insiders please correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Gold supposed to be a major contributor this year? I thought he was supposed to be one of the better players in practice. Maybe that’s wishful thinking on my part. Don’t want Froling part two.
I think he's been one of the better offensive players in practice, not necessarily best overall players and Shaka is definitely a coach that values defense over offense. But I think he will be better than Froling and I think he's got a lot of upside.
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I think he will be better than Froling
That bar's so low that even most Scoopers ain't lying under it in their own vomit.
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My roster assessment:
Tier 1: Penciled in starters
Kolek
O-Max
Oso
Tier 2: Fringe starters and rotation players
S. Jones
Mitchell
K. Jones
Wright
Gold
Tier 3: Wildcard
Joplin
Tier 4: Wait and see
Ross
Itejere
Injured/Probable redshirt
Ellis
I remember a team that had an S. Jones and a K. (C.) Jones - they did OK.
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I am bullish on the composition of our squad this year. MU can compete well in The Big East and that is our primary goal as a team . A solid Big East performance will get MU in the tournament .
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I am bullish on the composition of our squad this year. MU can compete well in The Big East and that is our primary goal as a team . A solid Big East performance will get MU in the tournament .
What's our Defcon 1 line-up Herman?
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I am bullish on the composition of our squad this year. MU can compete well in The Big East and that is our primary goal as a team . A solid Big East performance will get MU in the tournament .
I hope the team doesn't go into the season believing they can compete well and that is their primary goal.
I hope they go into the season believing they can win every game and that is their primary goal.
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That bar's so low that even most Scoopers ain't lying under it in their own vomit.
Why are you anti Marquette? You seem to be the most negative nellie on scoop.
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Bwahahahahaha
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But if cannot defend, he will not.
Joplin can shoot the three, but his D was behind last year…..so he was limited.
I have seen Gold enough to realize he has more skills then Novak had as a freshman. He can run the floor and dribble it up the floor on a rebound. He is a 3 that will have to guard 4’s and 5’s.
Remember one thing, 5’s will have a real hard time guarding him. MU might have to try zone at times to hide him
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Why are you anti Marquette? You seem to be the most negative nellie on scoop.
How was that post anti marquette or negative?
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I have seen Gold enough to realize he has more skills then Novak had as a freshman. He can run the floor and dribble it up the floor on a rebound. He is a 3 that will have to guard 4’s and 5’s.
Remember one thing, 5’s will have a real hard time guarding him. MU might have to try zone at times to hide him
Adama sanogo/Ryan kalkbrenner v Ben gold on the defensive end :-\
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I have seen Gold enough to realize he has more skills then Novak had as a freshman. He can run the floor and dribble it up the floor on a rebound. He is a 3 that will have to guard 4’s and 5’s.
Remember one thing, 5’s will have a real hard time guarding him. MU might have to try zone at times to hide him
Well, he cant guard a 3……and he can’t most 5s so I hope his offense is so lights out that Shaka cant take him off of the floor.
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Adama sanogo/Ryan kalkbrenner v Ben gold on the defensive end :-\
He was guarding grown men in the FIBA games with NZ. They weren't as good or as athletic, but they were physical. Gold got beat sometimes. But he competed. And he was able to finish through contact with either hand.
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Wrightsil on the floor might help
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He was guarding grown men in the FIBA games with NZ. They weren't as good or as athletic, but they were physical. Gold got beat sometimes. But he competed. And he was able to finish through contact with either hand.
Not as good or athletic being very important operative words. Jordan and Saudi Arabia mines well be rec league teams in relation to the international basketball scene. I’m not going to read much into those performances.
To clarify - love his skill set. I just don’t buy the fact he’s going to be a major contributor next year as some here claim.
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Not as good or athletic being very important operative words. Jordan and Saudi Arabia mines well be rec league teams in relation to the international basketball scene. I’m not going to read much into those performances.
To clarify - love his skill set. I just don’t buy the fact he’s going to be a major contributor next year as some here claim.
You are correct the bracket they played in sucked. The Americas and Europe brackets are a world of difference in FIBA
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I think he's been one of the better offensive players in practice, not necessarily best overall players and Shaka is definitely a coach that values defense over offense. But I think he will be better than Froling and I think he's got a lot of upside.
Thanks TAMU.
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Fair. However, there are 11 players and, according to Coach Nevada, they are playing even faster this summer. If MU is going to play faster, all 11 are going to play until they slow down. So, I don't KNOW if any of the freshmen are going to be huge contributors. I do know if MU is going to play fast, they are all going to have to play minutes like Joplin and early Stevie last year.
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Fair. However, there are 11 players and, according to Coach Nevada, they are playing even faster this summer. If MU is going to play faster, all 11 are going to play until they slow down. So, I don't KNOW if any of the freshmen are going to be huge contributors. I do know if MU is going to play fast, they are all going to have to play minutes like Joplin and early Stevie last year.
Agreed - he’ll play a role next year but it won’t be a leading one as someone said earlier.
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Why are you anti Marquette? You seem to be the most negative nellie on scoop.
Teal?
I mean, I even stood by Wojo for far too long.
And …
How was that post anti marquette or negative?
We Are Marquette!
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What makes you think gold will be a starter/main contributor?
We have plenty of guards and very few big men. We need Gold to be good, if we are going to be good.
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9th???!!!
No confidence in Oso?
Oso cannot do it on his own.
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We’re in big trouble if he’s ahead of Joplin or Omax on the depth chart.
His best shot at consistent minutes will be behind oso. He may be a decent shooter next year, but lack of athleticism and strength will limit his minutes year 1.
I do not expect him to be better than Omax. All Joplin could do last year was come in and shoot threes.
Gold as a freshman hopefully is better than Joplin was as freshman.
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Adama sanogo/Ryan kalkbrenner v Ben gold on the defensive end :-\
Joplin is not going to be able to guard them. Oso and Prosper are going to play the most. I do not see Gold as a center. I am saying he needs to be a better option than Joplin off the bench.
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I do not expect him to be better than Omax. All Joplin could do last year was come in and shoot threes.
Gold as a freshman hopefully is better than Joplin was as freshman.
Joplin’s role last year was to spell omax and Justin. Take a couple shots in a 2 minute ish stretch and compete defensively. He did a completely adequate job throughout the season and made some big buckets.
Just my personal opinion, but Joplin will be first or second leading scorer this season. Saying gold will outperform him is dexter akanno mixtape levels of hyperbole.
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Joplin’s role last year was to spell omax and Justin. Take a couple shots in a 2 minute ish stretch and compete defensively. He did a completely adequate job throughout the season and made some big buckets.
Just my personal opinion, but Joplin will be first or second leading scorer this season. Saying gold will outperform him is dexter akanno mixtape levels of hyperbole.
First or second leading scorer? I don’t see that happening. I just don’t think he’ll get the minutes for that.
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First or second leading scorer? I don’t see that happening. I just don’t think he’ll get the minutes for that.
Starting five is -
Mitchell
Kolek
Jones/Joplin
Omax/Joplin
Oso
I really love Jop’s game and would start him if I’m shaka, but practically, he provides a lot more flexibility as the first option to spell a guard or Omax after the first tv time out.
Jop is way too talented offensively not to get major minutes this season. Especially with a roster that doesn’t have a bonafide go to scorer.
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Joplin’s role last year was to spell omax and Justin. Take a couple shots in a 2 minute ish stretch and competent defensively. He did a completely adequate job throughout the season and made some big buckets.
Just my personal opinion, but Joplin will be first or second leading scorer this season. Saying gold will outperform him is dexter akanno mixtape levels of hyperbole.
Nope he wasn't. Him and Kam were clearly the worst two defenders on the team, and his defense was far off being competent. Filtering out garbage time, when Joplin was on the court, marquette gave up 1.068 ppp. That was the worst on the team. Unlike Kam, David offense wasn't really up to scratch either. Sub 30% from three, 50% from the line. Nothing to indicate high level scoring beyond a willingness to take shots. He refused to rebound.
If he is a positive contributor next year. That is a coaching success in itself. I would expect Wrightsil or Gold to play over him unless our offense bottoms out to a dangerously low level.
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Nope he wasn't. Him and Kam were clearly the worst two defenders on the team, and his defense was far off being competent. Filtering out garbage time, when Joplin was on the court, marquette gave up 1.068 ppp. That was the worst on the team. Unlike Kam, David offense wasn't really up to scratch either. Sub 30% from three, 50% from the line. Nothing to indicate high level scoring beyond a willingness to take shots. He refused to rebound.
If he is a positive contributor next year. That is a coaching success in itself. I would expect Wrightsil or Gold to play over him unless our offense bottoms out to a dangerously low level.
Meant to say compete - my bad. Agree he struggled defensively
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Nope he wasn't. Him and Kam were clearly the worst two defenders on the team, and his defense was far off being competent. Filtering out garbage time, when Joplin was on the court, marquette gave up 1.068 ppp. That was the worst on the team. Unlike Kam, David offense wasn't really up to scratch either. Sub 30% from three, 50% from the line. Nothing to indicate high level scoring beyond a willingness to take shots. He refused to rebound.
If he is a positive contributor next year. That is a coaching success in itself. I would expect Wrightsil or Gold to play over him unless our offense bottoms out to a dangerously low level.
Watching him in high school and aau told me he is a more than capable scorer. How many coaches have you heard say a player will end up being the programs leading scorer when it’s all said and done?
Using stats to bury a guy who played like 5 mins/game in conference isn’t a fair reflection of his overall abilities. He played the role he was asked last season and will most likely play a much larger role this year.
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He refused to rebound.
Shaka: “We need you to rebound, Jop.”
Jop: “Sorry, coach, but I refuse.”
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Watching him in high school and aau told me he is a more than capable scorer. How many coaches have you heard say a player will end up being the programs leading scorer when it’s all said and done?
Using stats to bury a guy who played like 5 mins/game in conference isn’t a fair reflection of his overall abilities. He played the role he was asked last season and will most likely play a much larger role this year.
So it’s not good to use actual stats from games but it’s fine to recall what he did in high school and AAU?
Look I like his potential upside but really think he has a couple steps to take before he can be what you think he can.
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Insiders please correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Gold supposed to be a major contributor this year? I thought he was supposed to be one of the better players in practice. Maybe that’s wishful thinking on my part. Don’t want Froling part two.
Shaka has thrown cold water every time there's an assertion he'll have a major role. That said, everyone who watches him comes away excited with the offensive potential.
The problem is I'm pretty sure he's a 4, not a 5. He'll have a role against teams that play drop coverage on bigs and can create matchup issues, but is his rugby background enough to stand up to Big East physicality?
From time to time he'll probably get run, but if he can't defend, he'll be next to Joplin on the bench.
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My current guess at a starting 5 is:
Kolek
Mitchell
Omax
Wrightsil
Oso
I think Kam will play a super sub role (more minutes than multiple starters but come off the bench).
Joplin and Sean Jones for the next two rotation spots.
Gold in the 9 spot.
Ross/Itejere getting spot minutes
Ellis redshirtting.
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My current guess at a starting 5 is:
Kolek
Mitchell
Omax
Wrightsil
Oso
I think Kam will play a super sub role (more minutes than multiple starters but come off the bench).
Joplin and Sean Jones for the next two rotation spots.
Gold in the 9 spot.
Ross/Itejere getting spot minutes
Ellis redshirtting.
Can we rebound the basketball? The three guys playing the 3/4 have to clean the class TAMU. They simply have to, it's non-negotiable. And that includes attacking the offensive glass on occasion as well. If they can hold their own, and be serviceable helping defend the interior, we very well could be in business. Still, this is my primary concern. Their mindset should be to rebound with the same ferocity as Bears or bald eagles take out salmon.
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My current guess at a starting 5 is:
Kolek
Mitchell
Omax
Wrightsil
Oso
I think Kam will play a super sub role (more minutes than multiple starters but come off the bench).
Joplin and Sean Jones for the next two rotation spots.
Gold in the 9 spot.
Ross/Itejere getting spot minutes
Ellis redshirtting.
That starting 5 may not have a player who can get there own shot. I think you need a little bit more O, so I would start Jones instead.. Can not defend the other
teams 2, pull him right away for Mitchell. Then take out Wrightsil and bring in Jop or Gold for some more O. Shaka has a lot of options this year.
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Only, if Gold is not good.
Seems Gold could be in front of Itejere on the depth chart early on
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That starting 5 may not have a player who can get there own shot. I think you need a little bit more O, so I would start Jones instead.. Can not defend the other
teams 2, pull him right away for Mitchell. Then take out Wrightsil and bring in Jop or Gold for some more O. Shaka has a lot of options this year.
That would be my fear with that starting lineup as well. Where is the scoring coming from? Oso needs to develop an outside shot. Kolek better have his going as well. Should be interesting. Can’t believe Kam and Joplin are incapable of playing defense. They are athletic and long enough. Let’s hope Shaka has coached them up. We’ll need there scoring punch.
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We were worried last year about where scoring was going to come from. And it worked out fine. Players and systems evolve. Shaka will eventually work out a rotation that will take advantage of this. IMO defense is going to be the larger issue this year. Kuath, Elliott and Morsell were all above average defenders and Justin was no slouch.
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We were worried last year about where scoring was going to come from. And it worked out fine. Players and systems evolve. Shaka will eventually work out a rotation that will take advantage of this. IMO defense is going to be the larger issue this year. Kuath, Elliott and Morsell were all above average defenders and Justin was no slouch.
Trust the process
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My current guess at a starting 5 is:
Kolek
Mitchell
Omax
Wrightsil
Oso
I think Kam will play a super sub role (more minutes than multiple starters but come off the bench).
Joplin and Sean Jones for the next two rotation spots.
Gold in the 9 spot.
Ross/Itejere getting spot minutes
Ellis redshirtting.
I think all of this is reasonable. I had Kam in for Stevie, though, but setting the tone defensively + having off the bench instant offense may push it to your lineup
Would love to see Sean Jones, Jop or Gold step up so much that they are a big part of the conversation … just unsure as of yet
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A year ago, the guy who would go on to be an all-league player was coming off a freshman season in which he averaged 7.8 ppg on .417 shooting, including .219 from 3-point range. The player who would become our other go-to guy was coming off a 4-year career at Maryland during which he averaged 8.7 ppg and shot .267 from 3.
In general, players at this level improve. Few of us have any idea how any of our players from last season (and also Wrightsil) have improved. Will one or more make a Lewis-level or at least Morsell-level jump?
Player development is a major part of Shaka's job. Given the way he's built the roster, one could argue that it's THE major part of his job. It will be interesting -- and, I think, lots of fun -- to see how well he's doing his job at getting his players to be better at doing their jobs.
And to get back to the OP ... given the praise Shaka has thrown Sean Jones' way, I expect him to be a real contributor for us this season. If that turns out to have been merely coach-speak ... that's fine, too, as long as those playing ahead of Sean have improved dramatically.
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It's not just a major part of his job, he has staked his career at Marquette in making sure that actually happens.
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It's not just a major part of his job, he has staked his career at Marquette in making sure that actually happens.
As I just said, "one could argue that it's THE major part of Shaka's job." And you did, indeed, just argue that. And I agree - that's why he gets the big bucks.
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We were worried last year about where scoring was going to come from. And it worked out fine. Players and systems evolve. Shaka will eventually work out a rotation that will take advantage of this. IMO defense is going to be the larger issue this year. Kuath, Elliott and Morsell were all above average defenders and Justin was no slouch.
Was Elliott really an above-average defender? He had experience and some length as a guard but I certainly didn't feel like he was a net positive on the defensive side of the ball. And when his 3 point shot was not falling he did not seem to provide much value. Maybe I'm way off-base there.
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Was Elliott really an above-average defender? He had experience and some length as a guard but I certainly didn't feel like he was a net positive on the defensive side of the ball. And when his 3 point shot was not falling he did not seem to provide much value. Maybe I'm way off-base there.
He was a better defender than Kam. Now, if Kam steps up defensively, he will certainly be a better overall player. But defensively Elliott could still hold his own out there for stretches.
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Was Elliott really an above-average defender? He had experience and some length as a guard but I certainly didn't feel like he was a net positive on the defensive side of the ball. And when his 3 point shot was not falling he did not seem to provide much value. Maybe I'm way off-base there.
No, you're not off base at all. Elliott was nowhere close to being an above average defender. Both on and off the ball. And you're also exactly right that he provided infinitesimal value when his 3-Ball went brick city. The only reason Kam arguably was a worse defender is because that was his first year of college hoops.
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Elliott was an above average off ball defender. He knew the system that Shaka was running and almost always made the proper rotation. He had issues on ball due to his physical limitations.
I believe that Kam will be better in the long-run. I don't know if he will get there this year.
Regardless, my point is that I am way more worried about defense than offense right now. We will get our points.
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Was Elliott really an above-average defender? He had experience and some length as a guard but I certainly didn't feel like he was a net positive on the defensive side of the ball. And when his 3 point shot was not falling he did not seem to provide much value. Maybe I'm way off-base there.
No, you're not off base at all. Elliott was nowhere close to being an above average defender. Both on and off the ball. And you're also exactly right that he provided infinitesimal value when his 3-Ball went brick city. The only reason Kam arguably was a worse defender is because that was his first year of college hoops.
Greg was not bad off the ball at all.
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Greg defended well in 2019-2020.. Besides that he was pretty equal to Kam on that side of the ball.
He stayed will people off ball minutely better, but that is splitting hairs.
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So it’s not good to use actual stats from games but it’s fine to recall what he did in high school and AAU?
Look I like his potential upside but really think he has a couple steps to take before he can be what you think he can.
Watching a guy play the full flow of a game is more valuable than looking into stats of the same guy only playing 5 minutes a game. Especially given the fact he was playing behind Lewis.
I would be in the wrong if he barely played his first two or three years and I was still talking about aau/hs film but it’s still pertinent now. We’ll see how it all shakes out once the season starts but I’m really excited to see what he can do with consistent playing time.
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Truth is that neither Joplin nor K. Jones showed much defensively last year. Plus, Joplin showed very little inclination to rebound. Whether either of them can improve defensively is yet to be seen, but they are going to have to. If you cannot defend reasonably well, you are simply not going to get big minutes in Shaka's system. Those who think K. Jones will be a starter this year must have a lot more faith in his defensive improvement than I do.
Offensively, I share the concern that some have expressed. But, I have more faith that the offense will work itself out than the defense.
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We were worried last year about where scoring was going to come from. And it worked out fine. Players and systems evolve. Shaka will eventually work out a rotation that will take advantage of this. IMO defense is going to be the larger issue this year. Kuath, Elliott and Morsell were all above average defenders and Justin was no slouch.
At lot of those scoring concerns were unwarranted and I said it repeatedly before the season last year.
It will be interesting to see what Shaka does with the lineup this season. Can kam and Joplin play on the floor together? It was ugly the few times they did it last year. Lots has been said about Kolek playing much better off the ball, but Lewis and Morsell are both gone. Will he still get those good looks off the ball without two confident proven scorers?
Best case is Stevie becomes the steadying force playing extended minutes and Kolek solves his shooting woes which then allows for the untapped talent of our unproven guys to shine. Worst case can get ugly and will be significant issues on the offensive end which won’t be able to be masked on the defensive end after losing Kuath (great rim protecter), Morsell (great perimeter defender) and Lewis (proven rebounder).
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Truth is that neither Joplin nor K. Jones showed much defensively last year. Plus, Joplin showed very little inclination to rebound. Whether either of them can improve defensively is yet to be seen, but they are going to have to. If you cannot defend reasonably well, you are simply not going to get big minutes in Shaka's system. Those who think K. Jones will be a starter this year must have a lot more faith in his defensive improvement than I do.
Offensively, I share the concern that some have expressed. But, I have more faith that the offense will work itself out than the defense.
I do wonder how much of the adversity to rebounding had to do with coaching instruction vs. desire. I could see Shaka trying to cover for Joplin’s half court defensive issues by telling him to fall back instead of crashing the glass.
Even still - not very good on the glass and something that will hopefully improve in extended minutes next year.
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Elliott was an above average off ball defender. He knew the system that Shaka was running and almost always made the proper rotation. He had issues on ball due to his physical limitations.
I believe that Kam will be better in the long-run. I don't know if he will get there this year.
Regardless, my point is that I am way more worried about defense than offense right now. We will get our points.
I guess I just disagree with you and others about GE's defense. But you're right, there is way more concern about our defense than our offense. And potential rebounding woes and overall team toughness has been causing me some anxiety. We have to find a way to rebound the ball and defend 1-5.
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That starting 5 may not have a player who can get there own shot. I think you need a little bit more O, so I would start Jones instead.. Can not defend the other
teams 2, pull him right away for Mitchell. Then take out Wrightsil and bring in Jop or Gold for some more O. Shaka has a lot of options this year.
We won't score 50 pts.
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"they gave up 80 points" will be this year's "they will score in the 50's"
We were worried last year about where scoring was going to come from. And it worked out fine. Players and systems evolve. Shaka will eventually work out a rotation that will take advantage of this. IMO defense is going to be the larger issue this year. Kuath, Elliott and Morsell were all above average defenders and Justin was no slouch.
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If I were in charge and everybody had progressed equally and was healthy....
I would start Kam over Stevie. He can provide early offense. Steve can come in and play either guard position and change the flow.
Likewise, I would bring Joplin off the bench. Wrightsil and Omax can play either forward position. Bring in Joplin when Kam comes out. Because they can provide the same thing, but unless both have made significant strides, you really cannot play them together defensively.
Barring injury and foul trouble, I think Oso goes 28 mpg most night.
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If I were in charge and everybody had progressed equally and was healthy....
I would start Kam over Stevie. He can provide early offense. Steve can come in and play either guard position and change the flow.
Likewise, I would bring Joplin off the bench. Wrightsil and Omax can play either forward position. Bring in Joplin when Kam comes out. Because they can provide the same thing, but unless both have made significant strides, you really cannot play them together defensively.
Barring injury and foul trouble, I think Oso goes 28 mpg most night.
What do you expect from Oso in 28 mins? He has a lot of skills. Maybe everything comes together and he becomes a standout BEast 5?
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What do you expect from Oso in 28 mins? He has a lot of skills. Maybe everything comes together and he becomes a standout BEast 5?
4 fouls
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What do you expect from Oso in 28 mins? He has a lot of skills. Maybe everything comes together and he becomes a standout BEast 5?
Improvement. He wasn't that far away last year.
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4 fouls
He has to avoid ticky-tack fouls.
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I expect there will be a set where the offense is initiated by giving him the ball just above the foul line and running motion off of that with him distributing the ball or taking the opposing 5 off the dribble. A hint of Loyola under Moser with a more mobile high post.
I doubt that will be the primary set, but I definitely think it will be in the toolbox.
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G- Kolek
G- Mitchell
F- OMax
F- Oso
I think those are your 4 locks for starters. Mitchell is maybe penciled in, but he's an absolute leader and has grown physically. Defense 1st attitude is going to get him a ton of minutes and he just outworks everybody. Kolek, OMax, and Oso are written in ink. LOCKS.
As far as the 5th guy I think it could go a bunch of different ways. If you recall last year, OMax was often guarding the opponents best player regardless of size. He guarded Gillespie and often pressured the ball handler. That allows MU to go big or small with that 5th starter.
If they want a crafty scorer then Kam. If they want some size and scoring then Joplin. Kam and Joplin do need growth defensively though so they may be best suited off the bench. If they want true size with the ability to score from anywhere they could try Gold, but he is inexperienced. It wouldn't surprise me to see Sean Jones or Wrightsil as the 5th starter either.
Should be interesting to see where they turn for that 5th spot, but in my eyes Kolek, Mitchell, OMax, Oso seem to be pretty surefire.
My best guess if I had to...would be
Kolek
Mitchell
Jones
OMax
Oso
or
Kolek
Mitchell
OMax
Joplin
Oso
The reason I lean that route is because Wrightsil plays similarly to Oso but in a shorter wider frame so I anticipate their minutes won't overlap a crazy amount. The same with Kam and Joplin and their defensive deficiencies. They likely won't overlap minutes for significant minutes either.
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Shaka played O-Max 30 minutes in the first UConn game (12/21/21) and mostly stayed with O-Max as a key guy the rest of the way. During those 20 games (18 starts), he shot .513 overall and .366 from 3. He also hit 82% of his free throws over the entire season. So we're not talking about a brick-thrower. Assuming he has worked a lot on his shot during the offseason, he could be a real threat from the perimeter this season.
Oso shot .738 from the line; bigs don't do that unless they can shoot a little. Not sure whether Shaka will incorporate that into the offense at all. Will be interesting to see.
As others say, I think we'll score A-OK.
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I expect there will be a set where the offense is initiated by giving him the ball just above the foul line and running motion off of that with him distributing the ball or taking the opposing 5 off the dribble. A hint of Loyola under Moser with a more mobile high post.
I doubt that will be the primary set, but I definitely think it will be in the toolbox.
Yup. Remember Nevada Smith worked under Spoelstra. I expect to see some of the actions Miami runs with Bam with us using Oso in that spot.
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4 fouls
He is no Theo
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I think all of this is reasonable. I had Kam in for Stevie, though, but setting the tone defensively + having off the bench instant offense may push it to your lineup
Would love to see Sean Jones, Jop or Gold step up so much that they are a big part of the conversation … just unsure as of yet
What you write is exactly why I think Stevie gets the starting role. I think Kam will play more minutes but I think Shaka will reward defense before offense and I think Kam can act like a microwave off the bench. I've also been led to believe that both Kolek and Mitchell have significantly improved their offense. We'll see if that actually translates
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Yup. Remember Nevada Smith worked under Spoelstra. I expect to see some of the actions Miami runs with Bam with us using Oso in that spot.
Bam has elite physical skills. Oso has decent physical skills.
Huge difference.
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What you write is exactly why I think Stevie gets the starting role. I think Kam will play more minutes but I think Shaka will reward defense before offense and I think Kam can act like a microwave off the bench. I've also been led to believe that both Kolek and Mitchell have significantly improved their offense. We'll see if that actually translates
Why are you anti Marquette? You seem to be the most negative nellie on scoop.
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Why are you anti Marquette? You seem to be the most negative nellie on scoop.
Who is anti Marquette?
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It is a response to something that was tossed at him.
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Bam has elite physical skills. Oso has decent physical skills.
Huge difference.
Bam is playing in the NBA. Oso is playing in the Big East.
Huge difference.
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Bam is playing in the NBA. Oso is playing in the Big East.
Huge difference.
All Jockey wrote was "the same actions". He's not comparing them as players.
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All Jockey wrote was "the same actions". He's not comparing them as players.
The “actions” run for Bam may require elite physical skills in the NBA because he is playing against other players with elite physical skills.
If your opponent has only decent physical skills (like most Big East post players)the same “actions” can be run for someone with decent physical skills.
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What makes you think gold will be a starter/main contributor?
Before he even takes the floor, he’s the greatest D1 player ever from New Zealand.
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Before he even takes the floor, he’s the greatest D1 player ever from New Zealand.
Oops I forgot about Kirk Penney 😞
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Oops I forgot about Kirk Penney 😞
Steven Adams !
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Steven Adams !
Doh 😖. PITT will benefit from a healthier Greg.
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Steven Adams !
Funny enough, Steven Adams never played for the Tall Blacks. So the greatest Tall Black title is ripe for the taking
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All Jockey JTJ3 wrote was "the same actions". He's not comparing them as players.
FIFY. Just since it seems like some folks are confused who started this comparison.
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Steven Adams !
I believe Aron Baynes is a 🥝 as well.
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I can remember 4 or 5 times last season where Oso initiated some sort of offensive set from the top of the key or high post last year. I remember 4 or 5 of those ending in turnovers.
I hope he’s improved enough this offseason to warrant running some offense through him this year. I’m skeptical. And would be about most 6’10” college centers. There aren’t many 6’10” guys with the ability to run an offense in college. The ones that are are usually lottery picks after a year of college basketball. Not a backup through two seasons.
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Who is anti Marquette?
It was a (hilarious) inside-ish joke.
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Funny enough, Steven Adams never played for the Tall Blacks. So the greatest Tall Black title is ripe for the taking
He knew Ben gold was comin
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I can remember 4 or 5 times last season where Oso initiated some sort of offensive set from the top of the key or high post last year. I remember 4 or 5 of those ending in turnovers.
I hope he’s improved enough this offseason to warrant running some offense through him this year. I’m skeptical. And would be about most 6’10” college centers. There aren’t many 6’10” guys with the ability to run an offense in college. The ones that are are usually lottery picks after a year of college basketball. Not a backup through two seasons.
The main offensive set we need to see from Oso is the one where he dunks the ball through the hoop.
That’s actually the main offensive set we need to see from anyone playing the 5.
The thing is, last years team was as Jekyll and Hyde as any MU team I’ve ever seen with it’s offensive ability, and specifically it’s P&R ability and bigs driving to the hoop for easy looks.
That squad, with no major injuries, managed to go from being one of the most offensively efficient teams in the BE to one of the least seemingly overnight.
They were figured out, and when they were figured out it wasn’t pretty.
Koleks play in the second half of the conference season was a big part of that.
Which version will we see this season?
Hopefully Oso and the guards are on the same page, a page that gives him easy looks at and above the hoop, and if so he will thrive.
If not, we will be wondering why Shaka doesn’t have a beefy big on the squad.
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That squad, with no major injuries, managed to go from being one of the most offensively efficient teams in the BE to one of the least seemingly overnight.
They were figured out, and when they were figured out it wasn’t pretty.
Koleks play in the second half of the conference season was a big part of that.
I don’t mean this in the wrong way, but…
Last 10 games of the regular season (pre-conf tourney): MU avg offensive ppp on a per game basis, 106.1. Previous 10 games to those: 104.9.
Same figures.. but for defense.. MU at the end… 104.4.. previous… 97.1
Kolek.. last 10.. 1.6 PRPG!, 97.4 Ortg, 47.1% eFG%, 23.8% TO rate
Kolek, previous 10… 1.3 PRPG!, 92.5 ORtg, 39.9% eFG%, 26.7% TO rate
Kur & Oso weren’t going to be high usage guys no matter who they played with last season.
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Didn't AE do a deep dive on MU's defensive deficiencies down the stretch? Particularly transition defense?
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Kolek must step-up and I expect he will get the job done. We're talking much better shooting, FGP, dimes, and far fewer turns. He's critical to our success this season.
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Again give me speed, handles, and creativity with the rock. Hopefully S. Jones fills this void in due time.
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https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=63350.0
Found it. The big change in MU down the stretch was transition defense.
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https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=63350.0
Found it. The big change in MU down the stretch was transition defense.
Terrible. Ty for the confirmation Tower. We all remember it with horror.
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I don’t mean this in the wrong way, but…
Last 10 games of the regular season (pre-conf tourney): MU avg offensive ppp on a per game basis, 106.1. Previous 10 games to those: 104.9.
Same figures.. but for defense.. MU at the end… 104.4.. previous… 97.1
Kolek.. last 10.. 1.6 PRPG!, 97.4 Ortg, 47.1% eFG%, 23.8% TO rate
Kolek, previous 10… 1.3 PRPG!, 92.5 ORtg, 39.9% eFG%, 26.7% TO rate
Kur & Oso weren’t going to be high usage guys no matter who they played with last season.
Sweet stats
https://twitter.com/franfraschilla/status/1573336895882293248?s=46&t=3KdHgIzlJf497iM_r0lqBA
January 4th, 2022. 88-56.
One team won conference 2 months later, the other lost by 30 and had the worst performance in the NCAA tournament after losing every ounce of itself down the stretch.
Defense was poor and rebounding was brutal, but let’s pretend the offense didn’t lose its magic.
Use the eyes, not the numbers
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Sweet stats
https://twitter.com/franfraschilla/status/1573336895882293248?s=46&t=3KdHgIzlJf497iM_r0lqBA
January 4th, 2022. 88-56.
One team won conference 2 months later, the other lost by 30 and had the worst performance in the NCAA tournament after losing every ounce of itself down the stretch.
Defense was poor and rebounding was brutal, but let’s pretend the offense didn’t lose its magic.
Use the eyes, not the numbers
Wut
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Sweet stats
https://twitter.com/franfraschilla/status/1573336895882293248?s=46&t=3KdHgIzlJf497iM_r0lqBA
January 4th, 2022. 88-56.
One team won conference 2 months later, the other lost by 30 and had the worst performance in the NCAA tournament after losing every ounce of itself down the stretch.
Defense was poor and rebounding was brutal, but let’s pretend the offense didn’t lose its magic.
Use the eyes, not the numbers
I use both. Our offense was fine down the stretch. Our defense went down the crapper
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Sweet stats
https://twitter.com/franfraschilla/status/1573336895882293248?s=46&t=3KdHgIzlJf497iM_r0lqBA
January 4th, 2022. 88-56.
One team won conference 2 months later, the other lost by 30 and had the worst performance in the NCAA tournament after losing every ounce of itself down the stretch.
Defense was poor and rebounding was brutal, but let’s pretend the offense didn’t lose its magic.
Use the eyes, not the numbers
You serious, Clark?
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I use both. Our offense was fine down the stretch. Our defense went down the crapper
Agree. MU's offense was consistently average game by game, but the defense was abysmal the second time through the conference.
Either MU coaches didn't adjust well or they didn't have the personnel to adjust. Has that been fixed? Will MU play at a slower tempo or improve on rebounding to avoid transition breakouts that were use to exploit MU? Will the new and returning personnel fix that gap?
Can't wait to see.
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Sweet stats
https://twitter.com/franfraschilla/status/1573336895882293248?s=46&t=3KdHgIzlJf497iM_r0lqBA
January 4th, 2022. 88-56.
One team won conference 2 months later, the other lost by 30 and had the worst performance in the NCAA tournament after losing every ounce of itself down the stretch.
Defense was poor and rebounding was brutal, but let’s pretend the offense didn’t lose its magic.
Use the eyes, not the numbers
I will accept, acknowledge, and partake in Marquette criticism until i die.
But Providence praise is unacceptable. The eye test for them was horrible, especially when you compared it to their record. They consistently played Nate Watson despite having a better option on the bench. If you think they were better than UCONN or Nova, you were taking crazy pills.
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Can we talk about how flawed it is to award a conference championship when teams don't play an equal number of games?
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I will accept, acknowledge, and partake in Marquette criticism until i die.
But Providence praise is unacceptable. The eye test for them was horrible, especially when you compared it to their record. They consistently played Nate Watson despite having a better option on the bench. If you think they were better than UCONN or Nova, you were taking crazy pills.
Nova it’d be hard to argue against. Final Four, could’ve won it all if not for injury, beat Providence both games, and finished a half game better than Providence in the standings.
UCONN? Really no argument for them having been better. Providence won the only game between the two (AT UCONN), finished 2 games better than UCONN in the Big East, and made a Sweet Sixteen compared to UCONN’s loss in the 5/12 matchup first round.
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Can we talk about how flawed it is to award a conference championship when teams don't play an equal number of games?
So just don’t call anyone conference champions for the season?
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I will accept, acknowledge, and partake in Marquette criticism until i die.
But Providence praise is unacceptable. The eye test for them was horrible, especially when you compared it to their record. They consistently played Nate Watson despite having a better option on the bench. If you think they were better than UCONN or Nova, you were taking crazy pills.
They won a conference Championship though, which means they deserve praise whether you agree or not.
The coach played who he thought was best, and won a title doing it.
It’s actually more impressive that they won despite being worse than Nova and UConn, in your opinion.
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Nova it’d be hard to argue against. Final Four, could’ve won it all if not for injury, beat Providence both games, and finished a half game better than Providence in the standings.
UCONN? Really no argument for them having been better. Providence won the only game between the two (AT UCONN), finished 2 games better than UCONN in the Big East, and made a Sweet Sixteen compared to UCONN’s loss in the 5/12 matchup first round.
Providence beat UConn without Sanogo.
They finished 2 games better because providence opted out/had covid for tough games.
New Mexico St was better than South Dakota state and Richmond, the two teams Providence beat.
Simulate the season 10 times and UConn is better than providence at least 7/10 times.
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Providence beat UConn without Sanogo.
They finished 2 games better because providence opted out/had covid for tough games.
New Mexico St was better than South Dakota state and Richmond, the two teams Providence beat.
Simulate the season 10 times and UConn is better than providence at least 7/10 times.
Games aren’t simulated. They actually played the games.
The games Providence had cancelled were Georgetown (home), Creighton (away, in the middle of a 6-7 stretch for Creighton, beat once and lost to once), UCONN (home, won at their place), and Seton Hall (away, in the middle of a 6-8 stretch, beat them at home).
Al Durham didn’t play in the game at UCONN (Providence’s leading scorer).
Jared Bynum missed 4 games, AJ Reeves missed 5 games.
Providence also took eventual national champion Kansas down to the wire in the Sweet Sixteen.
There’s literally no argument for UCONN having been better than Providence. Well, besides “if you simulate their seasons 10 times, Providence is worse in 7 of them!” ::)
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There’s literally no argument for UCONN having been better than Providence. Well, besides “if you simulate their seasons 10 times, Providence is worse in 7 of them!” ::)
KenPom… #22 UCoNn… #32 Providence
Bart torvik #25 vs. #34
The reality is, put those two teams against each other on a neutral court, and the betting will go to UCONN
In other words, there are strong arguments that say UCONN was the better team
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KenPom… #22 UCoNn… #32 Providence
Bart torvik #25 vs. #34
The reality is, put those two teams against each other on a neutral court, and the betting will go to UCONN
In other words, there are strong arguments that say UCONN was the better team
There it is. KenPom. Why even play games? The team that was 2 games back in the standings, lost the only head to head matchup (at home), and lost 2 rounds earlier in the Tourney was better because algorithms and math.
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There it is. KenPom. Why even play games? The team that was 2 games back in the standings, lost the only head to head matchup (at home), and lost 2 rounds earlier in the Tourney was better because algorithms and math.
Providence didn’t have as much talent as UConn/nova but they were really, really good winning close games. Some may call it luck, but it’s a team skill/character trait that isn’t easily quantifiable.
It’s no surprise they were a second weekend team last year.
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Providence didn’t have as much talent as UConn/nova but they were really, really good winning close games. Some may call it luck, but it’s a team skill/character trait that isn’t easily quantifiable.
It’s no surprise they were a second weekend team last year.
#crapshoot
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Providence didn’t have as much talent as UConn/nova but they were really, really good winning close games. Some may call it luck, but it’s a team skill/character trait that isn’t easily quantifiable.
It’s no surprise they were a second weekend team last year.
They played Richmond and South Dakota St.
Lets have some perspective.
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They played Richmond and South Dakota St.
Lets have some perspective.
Meanwhile you try to pimp New Mexico State. ;D A team who lost to Utah State, New Mexico, Sam Houston (by 25), Utah Valley, Chicago State, and Steven F Austin while their best win (besides UCONN) was…well, I don’t know. Only high major win was Washington State.
Wonder what the 10 season simulations would say about Richmond vs. South Dakota State vs. New Mexico State (a whopping 5 spots separate those teams in the algorithm, which includes New Mexico State’s win over UCONN bumping them up).
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They played Richmond and South Dakota St.
Lets have some perspective.
Put some respect on the BE champions name
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Here's Muggsy:
Put on Marquette gear, start a new thread, put gear away. Get new Marquette gear, put on, start a new thread......repeat.
Yes, Let’s dis someone who is fired up about the possibilities with MU basketball!
Go back to your mortuary sites and let some one be positive for a while!