MUScoop

McLeod joins Hoosier staff

BLOOMINGTON, Ind. (AP) -- Former NBA player Roshown McLeod has been hired as an assistant coach at Indiana.

New coach Tom Crean said Thursday that McLeod will work with the Hoosiers' inside players. The 6-foot-8 McLeod played at St. John's and Duke and was a first-round pick by Atlanta in the 1998 NBA draft.

He later played for Philadelphia and Boston and averaged 7.2 points and 2.7 rebounds in 113 career games. He later was an assistant at Fairfield and coach and director of basketball operations at Woodward Academy in Atlanta.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/basketball/ncaa/08/14/mcleod.ap/index.html


So who was hired by Crean to work with our inside players when Stephens left?

I'm sure that good big men coaches, just like good big men, are not a dime a dozen.

Do you really think Crean woke up every day at MU and said, "you know what, F*** big men, don't want 'em, don't need 'em, don't really want to teach and train the ones I've got."  It may be that it is slightly easier to attract these guys to Indiana than MU.

I know a lot of you are still butt hurt about Crean but please, move on.

well actually i think it is kind of funny.  first of all the guy is 6'8" tall and if any of you remeber him he was by no means a "big Man"  actually more a 3 than a 4.  but whatever ...kind of a moot point any way...you do not need to be an ex player or 7 feet tall to teach big men.
recruiting them would be a start and he nether did it here or has done it at Iu.  meanwhile Buzz has already beagan to rectify the issue.

What's really funny is that 4+ months after the fact, some around here continue to obsess over every move, no matter how minor, of the former coach.
Get over it, already.

Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on August 16, 2008, 10:25:21 PM
well actually i think it is kind of funny.  first of all the guy is 6'8" tall and if any of you remeber him he was by no means a "big Man"  actually more a 3 than a 4.  but whatever ...kind of a moot point any way...you do not need to be an ex player or 7 feet tall to teach big men.
recruiting them would be a start and he nether did it here or has done it at Iu.  meanwhile Buzz has already beagan to rectify the issue.

Really, Buzz is rectifiying the issue? Don't get me wrong, I love the recruiting job Buzz is doing but I would hardly call an unproven kid and a relatively unknown Canadian a rectification.

Maybe you are right. Maybe Buzz will be more successful with bigs but I wouldn't count your chickens.

Bottom line; elite bigs are hard to come by.  That's why most of them end up at traditionally elite schools.  Sometimes schools get lucky with projects.  More often, they don't.  Please, let's put this to bed and dance with the girl we brought.

didn't Robert Jackson help with the team... I thought he did.  Not positive on this one though.

Crean's offense is NOT big man friendly----all they do in the crean offense is go out on the perimeter and sit picks for guards-----or hide behind the backboard waiting for dishoffs from penetrating guards.

No opportunity for bigs to create their own shot downlow off a postup. Burke came here as a frosh with some excellent postup moves and savvy-----then a combination of too much weightlifting and not getting the reps posting up and he's regressed as a postup operator.

Agree the offense did not provide alot of opportunities for post players, or could it be the post players just were not good offensive players, we can discuss that forever. Burke did not come to MU with the post moves that you suggest. At Katrina he spent alot of time working on the moves by himself on a side basket and I believe Dan P was working with him (Dan left after one year) in the scrimmage he really didnt show any offense being a freshman and adjusting to the intense level of play. 

Murf, you don't have the nerve to post anything about TC's offense being unfriendly to bigs on Dodd's board, having been thoroughly beaten on that one.   Either TC couldn't recruit them or couldn't develop them, but when he had the one accomplished post player in his MU tenure, RJax got lots of touches in the post.    Go back and look at those 2003 tapes and say again that a big man with skills won't get used in Crean's offense.    Just another case of Murf world vs. reality.    Now, perhaps other coaches used that premise to recruit big men Crean was after, thereby denying him quality bigs, thereby perpetuating the myth.    But, RJax, and to a lesser extent Merrit (though he got the ball too damn often in the wide post) got their touches in the Crean offense.    Go to the tapes.

Quote from: muball on August 17, 2008, 10:15:38 AM
Agree the offense did not provide alot of opportunities for post players, or could it be the post players just were not good offensive players, we can discuss that forever. Burke did not come to MU with the post moves that you suggest. At Katrina he spent alot of time working on the moves by himself on a side basket and I believe Dan P was working with him (Dan left after one year) in the scrimmage he really didnt show any offense being a freshman and adjusting to the intense level of play. 

You must have seen a different scrimmage than I saw. maybe you were too close to the floor----maybe you got Burke mixed up with Lott-----maybe you don't understand the postup concept-----I don'y know what your problem is here, but I know what I saw-----I saw a very promising postup prospect who could go right or left with his back to the hoop.

Quote from: tower912 on August 17, 2008, 11:31:05 AM
Murf, you don't have the nerve to post anything about TC's offense being unfriendly to bigs on Dodd's board, having been thoroughly beaten on that one.   Either TC couldn't recruit them or couldn't develop them, but when he had the one accomplished post player in his MU tenure, RJax got lots of touches in the post.    Go back and look at those 2003 tapes and say again that a big man with skills won't get used in Crean's offense.    Just another case of Murf world vs. reality.    Now, perhaps other coaches used that premise to recruit big men Crean was after, thereby denying him quality bigs, thereby perpetuating the myth.    But, RJax, and to a lesser extent Merrit (though he got the ball too damn often in the wide post) got their touches in the Crean offense.    Go to the tapes.

What are you talking about?  I've been talking about TC's offense not being friendly to bigs for years on the Scout board.

RJax came to MU as an already established postup----he was a two time all SE conference center-----he wasn't recruited by TC, he fell into TC's lap------recruits end up in places where they will be developed----under Crean quality HS bigs didn't see any future at MU.

Classic Murf.   Your original point is that TC's offense is unfriendly to post players.   Silver Warior (IIRC) completely debunked that notion.  RJax's touches and Merrit's touches completely debunk the notion.   So in your latest, you say that RJax arrived as a completed product and say that TC couldn't develop bigs.   And there we agree.  RJax was a fairly finished product.   TC had trouble developing bigs, IMO his greatest weakness as a coach, and I can't decide if he can't develop them because he can't recruit them, or can't recruit them because he can't develop them.     But it had nothing to do with the offense that was run and RJax proves it.   When TC had a post player that was skilled, that post player got touches in the exact same offense he used every other year he was here.     So, if you say TC couldn't develop/recruit quality bigs, we agree.   If you say the offense he ran is the culprit, we disagree.   

Tower, do you think some recruits (bigs) were turned off by the guard-oriented offense that dominated TC's offense for most of his tenure?  I think it's definite possibility.

Quote from: tower912 on August 17, 2008, 01:01:28 PM
Classic Murf.   Your original point is that TC's offense is unfriendly to post players.   Silver Warior (IIRC) completely debunked that notion.  RJax's touches and Merrit's touches completely debunk the notion.   So in your latest, you say that RJax arrived as a completed product and say that TC couldn't develop bigs.   And there we agree.  RJax was a fairly finished product.   TC had trouble developing bigs, IMO his greatest weakness as a coach, and I can't decide if he can't develop them because he can't recruit them, or can't recruit them because he can't develop them.     But it had nothing to do with the offense that was run and RJax proves it.   When TC had a post player that was skilled, that post player got touches in the exact same offense he used every other year he was here.     So, if you say TC couldn't develop/recruit quality bigs, we agree.   If you say the offense he ran is the culprit, we disagree.   

Tower----You mean you have one year out of nine years where a big (RJAX) got some touches and that is 5 years ago? Recruits don't base their decisions on what took place years ago------they want to see where they fit NOW. Besides RJAX wasn't developed at MU----he came in an established postup (a 2 time all SE player)-----Crean had no history whatsoever in developing a big ---NONE, ZIP----and the proof lies in the fact that he could never -----and I mean NEVER recruit a quality postup out of HS once it became known that all they were used for in his offense was as canon fodder for guards!

Quote from: MUSF on August 16, 2008, 10:17:41 PM
I'm sure that good big men coaches, just like good big men, are not a dime a dozen.

Do you really think Crean woke up every day at MU and said, "you know what, F*** big men, don't want 'em, don't need 'em, don't really want to teach and train the ones I've got."  It may be that it is slightly easier to attract these guys to Indiana than MU.

I know a lot of you are still butt hurt about Crean but please, move on.

+1.

When are some of these guys going to get over it. Crean moved on, they should to.

79Warrior et all who are complaining about this post.  It's called sarcasm, joking around, having fun...whatever you want to call it. 

Settle down on your +1's and "stop obsessing over Crean rants"

I really don't care what Crean does anymore.  What MU and Buzz does, I am very interested in.

Quote from: reinko on August 17, 2008, 01:12:14 PM
Tower, do you think some recruits (bigs) were turned off by the guard-oriented offense that dominated TC's offense for most of his tenure?  I think it's definite possibility.

I think tower's point was that the reason it was 'guard-oriented' was because it couldn't be big man oriented with the personal we have.  If crean had recruited post players then the offence would not have been guard dominated because then he would have players to use.  WHat was he supposed to do with the dearth of post talent he brought in?  Tripple barro's shot attempts per game in order to attract some recruits?  We would have lost those games.

Quote from: RawdogDX on August 17, 2008, 04:07:40 PM
I think tower's point was that the reason it was 'guard-oriented' was because it couldn't be big man oriented with the personal we have.  If crean had recruited post players then the offence would not have been guard dominated because then he would have players to use.  WHat was he supposed to do with the dearth of post talent he brought in?  Tripple barro's shot attempts per game in order to attract some recruits?  We would have lost those games.

I hear you that on RawDog.  But if you look the ALL the players TC ever landed, the vast majority of them were 6'7" and under.  After some quick research here is the list of players above 6'7".  Sorry if I missed a couple...

~Fitz 6'8
~Burke 6'9
~Blackledge 6'8
~Mbakwe 6'8
~Kinsella 7'0
~Lott 6'8
~Novak 6'10
~Grimm 6'10
~M. Jackson 6'8
~Merritt 6'11
~R. Jackson 6'11

You are looking at 11 players over 6'7''.  And if you look at that group, 2 were transfers (Blackledge and RJax, 2 were tall shooting guards (Novak and fitz), 1 one was kinda useless (Kinsella).  And what do you have left? Merritt, Grimm, Mbakwe, Marcus Jackson.

I think there is something to the point that Crean peaked at his "big" recruiting with Scott Merritt in his first class.

Thoughts??

Quote from: reinko on August 17, 2008, 04:27:41 PM
I hear you that on RawDog.  But if you look the ALL the players TC ever recruited, the vast majority of them were 6'7" and under.  After some quick research here is the list of players above 6'7".  Sorry if I missed a couple...

~Fitz 6'8
~Burke 6'9
~Blackledge 6'8
~Mbakwe 6'8
~Kinsella 7'0
~Lott 6'8
~Novak 6'10
~Grimm 6'10
~M. Jackson 6'8
~Merritt 6'11
~R. Jackson 6'11

You are looking at 11 players over 6'7''.  And if you look at that group, 2 were transfers (Blackledge and RJax, 2 were tall shooting guards (Novak and fitz), 1 one was kinda useless (Kinsella).  And what do you have left? Merritt, Grimm, Mbakwe, Marcus Jackson.

I think there is something to the point that Crean peaked at his "big" recruiting with Scott Merritt in his first class.

Thoughts??Acutally MJax played quite well once he was healthy.  Mbakwe will do fine.

How tall was Sanders?

Quote from: reinko on August 17, 2008, 04:27:41 PM
I hear you that on RawDog.  But if you look the ALL the players TC ever recruited, the vast majority of them were 6'7" and under.  After some quick research here is the list of players above 6'7".  Sorry if I missed a couple...

~Fitz 6'8
~Burke 6'9
~Blackledge 6'8
~Mbakwe 6'8
~Kinsella 7'0
~Lott 6'8
~Novak 6'10
~Grimm 6'10
~M. Jackson 6'8
~Merritt 6'11
~R. Jackson 6'11

You are looking at 11 players over 6'7''.  And if you look at that group, 2 were transfers (Blackledge and RJax, 2 were tall shooting guards (Novak and fitz), 1 one was kinda useless (Kinsella).  And what do you have left? Merritt, Grimm, Mbakwe, Marcus Jackson.

I think there is something to the point that Crean peaked at his "big" recruiting with Scott Merritt in his first class.

Thoughts??

I think you need to change your post....he recruited plenty of over 6'7" kids, he just didn't land them.  Big difference.

It will be interesting to see if Crean is still unable to land those types of players at IU and whether Buzz can get them to Marquette consistently.

Thanks Chicos for the clarification.  I did mean landed, and modified accordingly.  And if you want to talk about "post players" that list of 12 (forgot Barro) 13 with Sanders shrinks to: Barro, Lott, Burke, MJax, Rjax, Mbakwe Grimm, Sanders, and Merritt.

I just think there must be something there if TC could only land 9 guys with a jump hook.  And of those 9, Barro was a massive project, RJax was a transfer, and MJax was forced to play guard because MU didn't have anyone else to bring the ball up court.

Hmmm. Nice interactions.

1) I think Crean's inability to land bigger guys was due to two reasons: a) no big man developer as an assistant and b) the shift to smaller guards. The latter begs the question: Was the shift due to the lack of landing effective, quality big men or simply a coaching preference? (A "chicken or the egg" question)

2) I think there is merit to look back at Crean's accomplishments and struggles at MU. To address all Crean mentions with "Get over it" is nonsense.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 17, 2008, 04:59:04 PM
I think you need to change your post....he recruited plenty of over 6'7" kids, he just didn't land them.  Big difference.

It will be interesting to see if Crean is still unable to land those types of players at IU and whether Buzz can get them to Marquette consistently.

If Buzz incorporates Burke & Mbakwe into the offense and lets them create their own shot and teaches them how----the bigs will come-----however if he continues the practice of having his bigs just setting picks for guards and hiding his bigs behind the backboard waiting for dishoffs, he'll have a lot of trouble landing quality bigs.

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 17, 2008, 06:06:35 PM
2) I think there is merit to look back at Crean's accomplishments and struggles at MU. To address all Crean mentions with "Get over it" is nonsense.

If those mentions dealt with Marquette exclusively, you wouldn't ever see a "get over it".

When people post things about who Crean has hired at INDIANA, what kind of pants Crean's assistant coach from INDIANA is wearing, which latest recruit committed to Crean at INDIANA, etc., then they deserve a "get over it".

For the next 6-18 months there will be a segment of fans (i.e. Buzz' Bulldog) who claim they couldn't care less about Crean anymore yet they'll provide a near once-weekly update of the latest goings on in Bloomington that makes their declaration look foolish. They have to "get over it".

If it continues deep into 2009, we'll have our own version of the Bill Self-obsessed Illinois fans.

When we had big men with more than rudimentary skills, RJax and Merrit, they got touches, RJax down low, Merrit in the high, low, and wide posts.    This was in the same offense that TC ran all 9 years.  Ergo, the problem was not the offense, it was in the quality of bigs that TC landed and how he developed them.   And then it became self-perpetuating.   Big men would look at MU and decide the offense wasn't for them, so we never got a quality big man and the offense never focused on getting the ball to the post.   However, to say it was an inherent flaw in the offense is to ignore how it was run in 03.   I was never sure which way the causality went, if it was the fact that he couldn't develop them the reason he couldn't land them, or that the fact he couldn't land quality kept him from developing them.    And he never had one leave with more skills than they arrived with.   That we can all agree on.    But, when he had big men with a modicum, they got touches.   That is fact.   Was I the only one praying at times they would STOP giving Merrit the ball?

Quote from: reinko on August 17, 2008, 03:46:25 PM
79Warrior et all who are complaining about this post.  It's called sarcasm, joking around, having fun...whatever you want to call it. 

Settle down on your +1's and "stop obsessing over Crean rants"

Yeah, it is a lot of fun. ?-(

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 17, 2008, 06:06:35 PM
Hmmm. Nice interactions.

1) I think Crean's inability to land bigger guys was due to two reasons: a) no big man developer as an assistant and b) the shift to smaller guards. The latter begs the question: Was the shift due to the lack of landing effective, quality big men or simply a coaching preference? (A "chicken or the egg" question)

2) I think there is merit to look back at Crean's accomplishments and struggles at MU. To address all Crean mentions with "Get over it" is nonsense.

1) Why do you insist on ignoring c) there aren't a lot of quality bigs out there to land, most are projects.

2) What merit is there in a post that clearly infers the same tired theory that somehow Crean intentionally decided not to recruit or develop bigs? IMO, that theory is ridiculous.

Quote from: MUSF on August 17, 2008, 08:32:09 PM
1) Why do you insist on ignoring c) there aren't a lot of quality bigs out there to land, most are projects.

2) What merit is there in a post that clearly infers the same tired theory that somehow Crean intentionally decided not to recruit or develop bigs? IMO, that theory is ridiculous.

#1 - Well then, almost all D-I prospects are projects. Yes, big men are hard to find but essential to a championship. Merritt was a solid frontcourt player and we didn't have a recruit that contributed as much as he did during the Crean tenure. What makes me hopeful that we will be able to recruit and develop the bigs (better than the previous staff) is that Buzz and Layer were on the CSU staff that developed Sixer C Jason Smith, and Benford helped recruit and develop Pacer F Ike Diogu and King F/C Kenny Thomas.

2) Make the inference, but I think it is worthy of debate. We know Stephens was the big-man coach, but who replaced him? Crean? One of his assistants? I think the discussion about development of big men in this thread is showing a dichotomy of recruitment (and maybe development) of bigs under Buzz as opposed to Crean.

And to Nola's comment - "If it continues deep into 2009, we'll have our own version of the Bill Self-obsessed Illinois fans": I don't think that will happen. Self won an NCAA Championship...Crean's got a long way to go. ;) And hopefully Buzz can beat him to it!

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 17, 2008, 06:06:35 PM
Hmmm. Nice interactions.

1) I think Crean's inability to land bigger guys was due to two reasons: a) no big man developer as an assistant and b) the shift to smaller guards. The latter begs the question: Was the shift due to the lack of landing effective, quality big men or simply a coaching preference? (A "chicken or the egg" question)

The notion that he didn't have a big man developer as an assistant just isn't true at all.  Even after Dwayne Stephens left, he still had guys in there that were noted for their development of big men in other places, it just didn't work out at MU. 

Dan Pannagio is considered one of the best coaches in the country at developing big men.  That's what he specialized in with the Trailblazers, that's what he did at Indiana, it's how he's made a living in the coaching profession.   Bo Ellis was the big man coach under Dukiet, O'Neill and Deane, and did a damn good job of it then...and he had the same responsibilities under Crean.  Even Rabadeuax was a big man coach in the past.  He did it under Sampson at OU, working with Najera and Aaron McGhee.

For whatever reason, it just didn't work out at MU.  But they had the coaches in place to develop the players.  So the question becomes was it Crean going away from that style, or was it the players they brought in not having enough talent regardless of how well coached they may have been.

Quote from: reinko on August 17, 2008, 05:13:48 PM
Thanks Chicos for the clarification.  I did mean landed, and modified accordingly.  And if you want to talk about "post players" that list of 12 (forgot Barro) 13 with Sanders shrinks to: Barro, Lott, Burke, MJax, Rjax, Mbakwe Grimm, Sanders, and Merritt.

I just think there must be something there if TC could only land 9 guys with a jump hook.  And of those 9, Barro was a massive project, RJax was a transfer, and MJax was forced to play guard because MU didn't have anyone else to bring the ball up court.

You forgot Amoroso as well.  He's 6'8.  And while he did play on the perimeter occasionally, the vast majority of his play was in the post.

Quote from: bma725 on August 17, 2008, 11:07:14 PM
The notion that he didn't have a big man developer as an assistant just isn't true at all.  Even after Dwayne Stephens left, he still had guys in there that were noted for their development of big men in other places, it just didn't work out at MU. 

Dan Pannagio is considered one of the best coaches in the country at developing big men.  That's what he specialized in with the Trailblazers, that's what he did at Indiana, it's how he's made a living in the coaching profession.   Bo Ellis was the big man coach under Dukiet, O'Neill and Deane, and did a damn good job of it then...and he had the same responsibilities under Crean.  Even Rabadeuax was a big man coach in the past.  He did it under Sampson at OU, working with Najera and Aaron McGhee.

For whatever reason, it just didn't work out at MU.  But they had the coaches in place to develop the players.  So the question becomes was it Crean going away from that style, or was it the players they brought in not having enough talent regardless of how well coached they may have been.

Thank you for some clarity...I was going to say the same thing, but people are just set in their views on this stuff.  Of course we had big men coaches after Stephens, to suggest otherwise is plain wrong.

Just like the statement that no big man ever left any better when he came in.  Come on.  As much as people get on Merritt, he left a better player then he was coming in.  RJax was better at MU then at MSU.  etc, etc.

Crean wanted quality bigs, he didn't get them.  At the same time, the guards on MU's team were blowing up left and right so MU got pegged as a place for premier guards.  It would have been great to land a Stiemsma, Butch, Nankivil, McFarland, etc., but MU didn't for whatever reason.

My point is that the offensive system is not inherently biased against bigs.

Crean's offense not biased against bigs per se----but the way Crean structured his "guard friendly" offense, the bigs were biased against playing for MU.

Quote from: Murffieus on August 18, 2008, 07:18:48 AM
Crean's offense not biased against bigs per se----but the way Crean structured his "guard friendly" offense, the bigs were biased against playing for MU.

That is not factual, that is your speculation.

Crean recruited a lot of big men who ultimately decided to attend different universities. There are a ton of reasons why kids chose certain schools (over MU).

We all know it's not as simple as "Crean's offense is too guard friendly".

Let's not apply one rationale as a blanket answer. That's silly.

It may have been the other way around.  If you are unable to get big men then your offense is forced to be built around guards.

From what I understand, Crean prefers big women.

Ah, maybe he prefers big men?

Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 18, 2008, 08:50:35 AM
Ah, maybe he prefers big men?

Joani does.

Ah, maybe he prefers big men?


Joani does.

I can verify that.

ok, people, let's move along here.

Quote from: reinko on August 17, 2008, 03:46:25 PM
79Warrior et all who are complaining about this post.  It's called sarcasm, joking around, having fun...whatever you want to call it. 

Settle down on your +1's and "stop obsessing over Crean rants"

We have just as much a right to complain about your Crean issues as you have to post them.

Quote from: 2002mualum on August 18, 2008, 08:07:38 AM
That is not factual, that is your speculation.

Crean recruited a lot of big men who ultimately decided to attend different universities. There are a ton of reasons why kids chose certain schools (over MU).

We all know it's not as simple as "Crean's offense is too guard friendly".

Let's not apply one rationale as a blanket answer. That's silly.

You pan my statement that MU's offense was "too guard friendly"-----but then you say that they simply decided to go elsewhere-----well that begs the question----WHY DID THEY CHOOSE TO GO ELSEWHERE?

There is no other explanation as Crean NEVER was able to successfully recruit a quality HS postup/big since Merritt in his first recruiting class!

I think a lot of people are making strong points on both sides of the arguement.  Obvioulsy TC tried to recruit big men, he just wasn't all that sucessful at landing them.  So you have to explore why?  Well initially, when TC came in, we were a middle of the road C-USA team.  We are not going to land any stud big guys unless it involved an Escalade and duffle bag full of cash.

So then why not in the later years?  Well, my best guess, is after the Final Four, TC had a fresh opportunity to go out and recruit at a whole new level.    If you look at who TC landed the 2 years after the FF: Brandon Bell (transfer), Carlton Christian (transfer), Dameon Mason (transfer), Niv Berkowitz (transfer), Amaroso (transfer), Ooze (4 years).  Then his transfers: MJax and Kinsella.

And in the subsequent years he landed the big 3, and thus destined to be a guard oriented offense, and any well-polished big men would go to another school where they would be the focal point of the offense, or at the very least the secondary option.

I think where the true arguement lays, is did TC value guard play, athleticism, and the 3-point shot more than post players?  In my opinion yes.

At a team function a then current big man told our table straight out that MU did zero big man drills in practice. 

We all nearly threw up. 

Quote from: reinko on August 18, 2008, 12:13:35 PM
So then why not in the later years?  Well, my best guess, is after the Final Four, TC had a fresh opportunity to go out and recruit at a whole new level.    If you look at who TC landed the 2 years after the FF: Brandon Bell (transfer), Carlton Christian (transfer), Dameon Mason (transfer), Niv Berkowitz (transfer), Amaroso (transfer), Hanley (transfer), Ooze (4 years).  Then his transfers: MJax and Kinsella.

Hanley was a walk on, not a scholarship player.  And he didn't transfer, he blew out his knee and had to stop playing basketball.

Quote from: bma725 on August 18, 2008, 01:42:33 PM
Hanley was a walk on, not a scholarship player.  And he didn't transfer, he blew out his knee and had to stop playing basketball.

What about Shane Grube?

Quote from: bma725 on August 18, 2008, 01:42:33 PM
Hanley was a walk on, not a scholarship player.  And he didn't transfer, he blew out his knee and had to stop playing basketball.

]

Modified.  Thanks for the correction.

Quote from: marqptm on August 18, 2008, 01:43:37 PM
What about Shane Grube?

Also a walk on, not a scholarship player.  Made the team because he's Travis Diener's cousin.  Transferred to Division III Lakeland College in Sheboygan which was a more appropriate level for him.

Quote from: bma725 on August 18, 2008, 02:30:39 PM
Also a walk on, not a scholarship player.  Made the team because he's Travis Diener's cousin.  Transferred to Division III Lakeland College in Sheboygan which was a more appropriate level for him.

Sorry, forgot the sarcasm font.

Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on August 18, 2008, 12:39:54 PM
At a team function a then current big man told our table straight out that MU did zero big man drills in practice. 

We all nearly threw up. 

As would I.

Good points, Reinko.

The inability to capitalize on a Final Four berth and recruit some quality players (esp. bigs) really is mindnumbing (especially looking at the amount of transfers).

But to Crean's credit, he got the Three Amigos in. So I guess it's almost a wash.

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 18, 2008, 04:15:21 PM

The inability to capitalize on a Final Four berth and recruit some quality players (esp. bigs) really is mindnumbing (especially looking at the amount of transfers).

But to Crean's credit, he got the Three Amigos in. So I guess it's almost a wash.

This doesn't make sense, he couldn't get recruits after the final four, but he did???

Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on August 18, 2008, 12:39:54 PM
At a team function a then current big man told our table straight out that MU did zero big man drills in practice. 

We all nearly threw up. 

I've watched Crean practices and individual workouts with assistant coaches.  Both of which included big man drills.  Maybe your mysterious MU big man was mistaken.

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 18, 2008, 04:15:21 PM
The inability to capitalize on a Final Four berth and recruit some quality players (esp. bigs) really is mindnumbing (especially looking at the amount of transfers).

I agree with the other poster who is dumbfounded. It seems like you're upset about not maximizing the Final Four yet you give him great credit for the first class he could really capitalize off the Final Four.

Another interesting point to bring up is that Crean recruited some high quality players and kept the transfers down once we stepped up a class to the Big East. As many have said, Crean being a first time coach needed to learn how to do things and it seems he learned in that regard.

Quote from: MUSF on August 18, 2008, 07:28:29 PM
I've watched Crean practices and individual workouts with assistant coaches.  Both of which included big man drills.  Maybe your mysterious MU big man was mistaken.

I double the beginning of this point. I've seen multiple practices -- both between games and day of game walkthroughs -- where big man drills were present and almost a focus.

That being said, the poster who wrote that isn't one to make stuff up.

Quote from: herboturbo on August 18, 2008, 04:39:23 PM

This doesn't make sense, he couldn't get recruits after the final four, but he did???

Not to mention the number of Final Four teams who have done much worse than MU since their FF. LSU, Ok. St, Ga Tech, come to mind.

Convetional wisdom isn't always correct guys.

That is the problem I have with threads like this. Someone, makes an observation that is generally accepted as fact, in this case MUs difficulty recruiting and developing bigs, and then starts guessing and speculating what the reason might be. The rest of us are then expected to accept these theories as valid opinion when there is absolutely no factual information to back them up.

Let's see...
Crean didn't hire someone to develop bigs after Stephens. - Not true.

Crean tailors his offense around guards not bigs. - When Crean had good offensive bigs, they got plenty of opportunities in his offense. More likely, Crean tailored his offense to the talent on the roster not the roster to the offense.

Crean didn't recruit bigs. - Not true.

I could probably keep going. Look, don't tell me I have to respect your opinion when the facts aren't on your side. Your anti-Crean agenda is clouding your view of reality.  I don't respect the opinion that we never landed on the moon or the world is 3,000 years old and I put the Crean didn't care about recruiting or developing bigs in that same category.

"I think where the true arguement lays, is did TC value guard play, athleticism, and the 3-point shot more than post players?  In my opinion yes."

As does pretty much every college coach in America because it is the easiest recipe for success. 

This is not where the argument lays.  If it were, then there wouldn't be much argument.

Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on August 18, 2008, 12:39:54 PM
At a team function a then current big man told our table straight out that MU did zero big man drills in practice. 

We all nearly threw up. 

I believe that had already been debunked several times.

Quote from: MUSF on August 18, 2008, 08:14:22 PM
Not to mention the number of Final Four teams who have done much worse than MU since their FF. LSU, Ok. St, Ga Tech, come to mind.

Conventional wisdom isn't always correct guys.

That is the problem I have with threads like this. Someone, makes an observation that is generally accepted as fact, in this case MUs difficulty recruiting and developing bigs, and then starts guessing and speculating what the reason might be. The rest of us are then expected to accept these theories as valid opinion when there is absolutely no factual information to back them up.

Let's see...
Crean didn't hire someone to develop bigs after Stephens. - Not true.

Crean taylors his offense around guards not bigs. - When Crean had good offensive bigs, they got plenty of opportunities in his offense. More likely, Crean taylored his offense to the talent on the roster not the roster to the offense.

Crean didn't recruit bigs. - Not true.

I could probably keep going. Look, don't tell me I have to respect your opinion when the facts aren't on your side. Your anti-Crean agenda is clouding your view of reality.  I don't respect the opinion that we never landed on the moon or the world is 3,000 years old and I put the Crean didn't care about recruiting or developing bigs in that same category.

Crean did tailor his offense to the talent of his recruits. I do agree with that statement.

Crean also did recruit bigs, but didn't land many of them.

But who was hired specifically to recruit and develop big men after Stephens?

Was Rabadeux hired with the intent to fill Stephens's shoes and recruit and develop big men? Maybe Bo, but he only lasted a year. Do you even recall or can you reference another assistant introduced as the "coach of the Marquette post players"?

Is it "conventional wisdom" that since Stephens left, the play and quality of MU's post players took a down turn from the production of Jackson and Merritt (heck, Nnamaka or Blankson)?

Also, is it "conventional wisdom" that WITH Stephens on the MSU staff, he has helped recruit and develop Paul Davis and Goran Sutton and "in 2006-07, the Spartan big men led a defensive attack that set a school record in blocks and led the conference in rebound margin for the second time in three years?"

I contend that the loss of Stephens and the inability by Crean to replace him had direct effects on the lack of consistency, development, and production of the Marquette front court.

But that may change in the near future.

I think - though he was on staff for about a year - Buzz's interview (see another post) sheds light on what he saw (as an assistant) as an area that was under-addressed: the development of the front court players. The obvious recruitment of bigger players paired with his statements in the interview shows that he is dedicated to having a more traditional basketball team.

Furthermore, any criticism of Crean's handling of the team while at Marquette should be welcome and not all are simply "Anti-Crean" threads. The same should go for any Marquette player, coach, administrator, etc. These folks are not idols on pedestals.

NOTA BENE: I never asked you to respect my opinion.  ;)

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 18, 2008, 10:17:30 PM
Crean did tailor his offense to the talent of his recruits. I do agree with that statement.

Crean also did recruit bigs, but didn't land many of them.

But who was hired specifically to recruit and develop big men after Stephens?

Was Rabadeux hired with the intent to fill Stephens's shoes and recruit and develop big men? Maybe Bo, but he only lasted a year. Do you even recall or can you reference another assistant introduced as the "coach of the Marquette post players"?

Is it "conventional wisdom" that since Stephens left, the play and quality of MU's post players took a down turn from the production of Jackson and Merritt (heck, Nnamaka or Blankson)?

Also, is it "conventional wisdom" that WITH Stephens on the MSU staff, he has helped recruit and develop Paul Davis and Goran Sutton and "in 2006-07, the Spartan big men led a defensive attack that set a school record in blocks and led the conference in rebound margin for the second time in three years?"

I contend that the loss of Stephens and the inability by Crean to replace him had direct effects on the lack of consistency, development, and production of the Marquette front court.

But that may change in the near future.

I think - though he was on staff for about a year - Buzz's interview (see another post) sheds light on what he saw (as an assistant) as an area that was under-addressed: the development of the front court players. The obvious recruitment of bigger players paired with his statements in the interview shows that he is dedicated to having a more traditional basketball team.

Furthermore, any criticism of Crean's handling of the team while at Marquette should be welcome and not all are simply "Anti-Crean" threads. The same should go for any Marquette player, coach, administrator, etc. These folks are not idols on pedestals.

NOTA BENE: I never asked you to respect my opinion.  ;)

I don't mind criticism of Crean, really, I don't.  You are building a straw man.  I'm not putting anyone on a pedestal.  What is ridiculous is the inference in the title of the thread and the direct claims by some that Crean didn't care about recruiting or developing post players.

Dude, read your own words.

"How interesting that Big Men now get some special attention from Crean."

Clearly, you think they got no special attention from him when he was at MU.  Now, if you don't think he did an adequate job recruiting and developing post players, that is fine.  You could easily make that argument.  However, this thread started out with a silly insinuation that for some reason it was intentional.  You can back away from that now, but to me it is pretty clear.

Thewre are big man drills and there are big man drills (group "big man drills" are of limited value)-----but the best way to develop a postup is to first of all to have a coach on staff who knows how to develop a big.

The next step is to have the big on the side basket for 20 minutes each day with the coach standing right over him going through his reps at first one on nothing and then when the big has the footwork down go one on one with the reps.

I've seen Burke's and Barro's postup development which is next to ZERO-----so it's  obvious they didn't get those reps in practice. Furthermore even if they had developed postup technique it would have been worthless in Crean's offense because since he went to the 3 guard offense the centers are seldom in postup position to get the ball-----they are out on the perimeter setting picks or hiding behind the hoop for dish offs!

Quote from: Murffieus on August 18, 2008, 11:41:07 AM
You pan my statement that MU's offense was "too guard friendly"-----but then you say that they simply decided to go elsewhere-----well that begs the question----WHY DID THEY CHOOSE TO GO ELSEWHERE?

There is no other explanation as Crean NEVER was able to successfully recruit a quality HS postup/big since Merritt in his first recruiting class!

Let me get this straight:

You believe that Crean's offense is the single reason why thousands of big men didn't line-up to enroll at MU every fall?

Again, I'm not arguing about his offense (there are plenty of other postings about that)... I'm simply stating the realistic notion that there are many reasons why a high school player would chose a specific school. Proximity, program history, family history at the school, facilities, conference, coaches, overall scheme and style of play, campus environment, academic advantages, majors available, etc. etc.

You can't just boil down an argument to "Crean didn't have a big man's offense... so he failed". It's not that simple, and you know that, Murf.

C'mon dude.

Very entertaining to see the inane banter about did we finish 5th or 6th in the BE.  Now let's see, where were we picked to finish and what were Tommy's groupies saying?

An interesting example in this stdy is Bobby Capobianco, a player that Crean was trying to land at MU, and eventually did land at IU.

Putting aside the argument that Crean "stole" a guy he was recruiting at MU, keep in mind that this is a kid who could have verballed to Crean at any time prior to April 1, but didn't.

He did, however, verbal to IU within days of Crean's arrival.

According to this article Capobianco liked Huggins and Crean as coaches, but really wanted to play at IU. 
http://blogs.heraldtimesonline.com/iusp/?p=1923

This is a perfect example of a kid who didn't avoid MU because of coaching style (after all, he eventually committed to the very same coach), but apparently because of the school.

On the other hand, Otule, Mbakwe, Capobianco are the types of big men that apparently were willing to sign with Crean. 

I know this doesn't fit the nice little theory that "big men won't play for Crean."  However, I think there is sufficient evidence to suggest that perhaps there are additional issues other than the coach driving the decisions.

Quote from: wampum77 on August 19, 2008, 10:07:52 AM
Very entertaining to see the inane banter about did we finish 5th or 6th in the BE.  Now let's see, where were we picked to finish and what were Tommy's groupies saying?

this can't be inane banter because you seem to be talking to yourself.  Does that make it an inane rambling? 

Quote from: wampum77 on August 19, 2008, 10:07:52 AM
Very entertaining to see the inane banter about did we finish 5th or 6th in the BE.  Now let's see, where were we picked to finish and what were Tommy's groupies saying?

Which year?  I remember one year we were picked to finish 12th and we actually finished 4th.  Another year we were picked 3rd and finished 5th.   That's why they play the games.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 18, 2008, 10:08:12 PM
I believe that had already been debunked several times.

I was there...now maybe the player was lying, but it was said.

Quote from: Murffieus on August 19, 2008, 07:30:42 AM
Thewre are big man drills and there are big man drills (group "big man drills" are of limited value)-----but the best way to develop a postup is to first of all to have a coach on staff who knows how to develop a big.

The next step is to have the big on the side basket for 20 minutes each day with the coach standing right over him going through his reps at first one on nothing and then when the big has the footwork down go one on one with the reps.

I've seen Burke's and Barro's postup development which is next to ZERO-----so it's  obvious they didn't get those reps in practice. Furthermore even if they had developed postup technique it would have been worthless in Crean's offense because since he went to the 3 guard offense the centers are seldom in postup position to get the ball-----they are out on the perimeter setting picks or hiding behind the hoop for dish offs!

Again, complete speculation.

Some of you obviously didn't take Logic 001 at MU.

Quote from: MUSF on August 19, 2008, 03:52:27 PM
Again, complete speculation.

Some of you obviously didn't take Logic 001 at MU.

Murf: "...but the best way to develop a postup is to first of all to have a coach on staff who knows how to develop a big."

MUSF, which assistant coach was the big man specialist during Crean's (post-Stephens) tenure?

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 19, 2008, 04:17:09 PM
Murf: "...but the best way to develop a postup is to first of all to have a coach on staff who knows how to develop a big."

MUSF, which assistant coach was the big man specialist during Crean's (post-Stephens) tenure?

This thread has officially gotten too long, because I'm pretty sure that was addressed.

77, I believe this answers your question about coaching.

Quote from: bma725 on August 17, 2008, 11:07:14 PM
The notion that he didn't have a big man developer as an assistant just isn't true at all.  Even after Dwayne Stephens left, he still had guys in there that were noted for their development of big men in other places, it just didn't work out at MU. 

Dan Pannagio is considered one of the best coaches in the country at developing big men.  That's what he specialized in with the Trailblazers, that's what he did at Indiana, it's how he's made a living in the coaching profession.   Bo Ellis was the big man coach under Dukiet, O'Neill and Deane, and did a damn good job of it then...and he had the same responsibilities under Crean.  Even Rabadeuax was a big man coach in the past.  He did it under Sampson at OU, working with Najera and Aaron McGhee.

For whatever reason, it just didn't work out at MU.  But they had the coaches in place to develop the players.  So the question becomes was it Crean going away from that style, or was it the players they brought in not having enough talent regardless of how well coached they may have been.

Quote from: MUSF on August 19, 2008, 03:52:27 PM
Again, complete speculation.

Some of you obviously didn't take Logic 001 at MU.

MUSF----Speculation You say! Well you're mistaken-----the best way to develop a big is in  individual postup drills one on one 20 minutes a day before practice with the coach who knows what he is doing standing over his every  that's not "speculation"------developing a big is easier than developing perimeter people to the guy who knows what he's doing

Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on August 19, 2008, 03:24:10 PM
I was there...now maybe the player was lying, but it was said.

I understand, but what makes no sense is that plenty of people have been to practices and they ran big man drills all the time.  I guess I don't understand the player's comments when faced with the reality of what happened.

Quote from: Murffieus on August 19, 2008, 07:21:47 PM

Speculation? You say! Well you're mistaken-----the best way to develop a big is in  individual postup drills one on one 20 minutes a day before practice with the coach who knows what he is doing standing over his every  that's not "speculation"------that's a fact!

That not what he is saying you are speculating on.  He is saying you are speculating on if they did the drills or worked on it in practice.  You have no idea because you weren't at practice so it is pure speculation on your part.  You act like you can take any guy that is 6' 10" and turn him into Kareem Abdul-Jabaar.  Some guys (Bukre, Barro) don't posess the skils to develop an effective post-up game whether they work on individual drills or not.

Quote from: Murffieus on August 19, 2008, 07:21:47 PM

Speculation? You say! Well you're mistaken-----the best way to develop a big is in  individual postup drills one on one 20 minutes a day before practice with the coach who knows what he is doing standing over his every  that's not "speculation"------that's a fact!

I'm not questioning that.  Your assumption that those drills were not done under Crean is complete speculation.

I don't care how many exclamation points you use, it is still the definition of speculation.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 19, 2008, 07:23:33 PM
  I guess I don't understand the player's comments when faced with the reality of what happened.

I know we are all thinking it so i guess i'll just be the bad guy and say it...  the 'player' was wasted out of his mind on peyote.

Quote from: MUSF on August 19, 2008, 07:28:00 PM
I'm not questioning that.  Your assumption that those drills were not done under Crean is complete speculation.

I don't care how many exclamation points you use, it is still the definition of speculation.

He may have had big men drills of some sort----but not postup drills----Burke regressed as a postup center and Barro was very crude posting up----not the sign of well drilled postups-----so either Crean's big men drills were very inefective or he didn't spend much time on them----certainly didn't emphasize them or the product would have been better!

Murf, what do you see as the ceiling for Barro and Burke if they had been taught properly?   I think that both could have been significantly better, but Ooze was always going to be hampered by sub-par hands and Burke was always going to be hampered by his height.

Quote from: 2002mualum on August 19, 2008, 04:48:39 PM
77, I believe this answers your question about coaching.

Quote from: Quote from: bma725

The notion that he didn't have a big man developer as an assistant just isn't true at all.  Even after Dwayne Stephens left, he still had guys in there that were noted for their development of big men in other places, it just didn't work out at MU.

Dan Pannagio is considered one of the best coaches in the country at developing big men.  That's what he specialized in with the Trailblazers, that's what he did at Indiana, it's how he's made a living in the coaching profession.   Bo Ellis was the big man coach under Dukiet, O'Neill and Deane, and did a damn good job of it then...and he had the same responsibilities under Crean.  Even Rabadeuax was a big man coach in the past.  He did it under Sampson at OU, working with Najera and Aaron McGhee.

Thanks for the reference.

Panaggio was known as a player developer which did include big men (Wallace, Randolph and Outlaw) and guards (Telfair). But I guess Qyntel Woods blossomed under him as did Ruben Boumtje-Boumtje. No where - I could find - was he exalted as a big man specialist.  Even Crean's first words on his hiring reflected that. (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=346910) And he was at MU for only two seasons since he it seemed that MU was just a transitional stop.

Ellis was a big man coach, but only stayed at MU for a year (post Final Four).

But no way was Rabedeaux a big man coach. Did he recruit big men? Sure, Najera and transfer McGhee do come to mind. But he was a backcourt coach: "In addition to his recruiting duties, Rabedeaux's on-court responsibilities at Oklahoma included developing the team's backcourt players." (http://www.soonersports.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/091099aab.html)

Compare these guys' bios to Stephens's (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=346910):

Among Stephens' many responsibilities, he coaches the Spartan post players, while also handling scouting and recruiting duties. Under his tutelage, Spartan center Paul Davis was a three-time All-Big Ten honoree, including first-team all-conference and Associated Press honorable mention All-America honors in 2003-04, while finishing among the top 10 scorers and rebounders in MSU history. Last season, Goran Suton ranked second in the Big Ten in rebounding at 8.2 boards per contest.

HUGE difference there. It actually mentions his duties. Now THAT is a big-man specialist. Crean just was enamored with filling his assistant coach spots with former coaches and neglected to address Stephens's void.

So, Stephens was replaced with two revolving doors and an inexperienced front court coach. I guess that's why Barro, Burke, and others did not develop fully and possibly why big men shied away from MU.

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 20, 2008, 09:06:10 AM


Thanks for the reference.

Panaggio was known as a player developer which did include big men (Wallace, Randolph and Outlaw) and guards (Telfair). But I guess Qyntel Woods blossomed under him as did Ruben Boumtje-Boumtje. No where - I could find - was he exalted as a big man specialist.  Even Crean's first words on his hiring reflected that. (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=346910) And he was at MU for only two seasons since he it seemed that MU was just a transitional stop.

Ellis was a big man coach, but only stayed at MU for a year (post Final Four).

But no way was Rabedeaux a big man coach. Did he recruit big men? Sure, Najera and transfer McGhee do come to mind. But he was a backcourt coach: "In addition to his recruiting duties, Rabedeaux's on-court responsibilities at Oklahoma included developing the team's backcourt players." (http://www.soonersports.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/091099aab.html)

Compare these guys' bios to Stephens's (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=346910):

Among Stephens' many responsibilities, he coaches the Spartan post players, while also handling scouting and recruiting duties. Under his tutelage, Spartan center Paul Davis was a three-time All-Big Ten honoree, including first-team all-conference and Associated Press honorable mention All-America honors in 2003-04, while finishing among the top 10 scorers and rebounders in MSU history. Last season, Goran Suton ranked second in the Big Ten in rebounding at 8.2 boards per contest.

HUGE difference there. It actually mentions his duties. Now THAT is a big-man specialist. Crean just was enamored with filling his assistant coach spots with former coaches and neglected to address Stephens's void.

So, Stephens was replaced with two revolving doors and an inexperienced front court coach. I guess that's why Barro, Burke, and others did not develop fully and possibly why big men shied away from MU.

Fair enough... we can slice this anyway you want.

I would say that Crean did hire an adequate assistant who specialized in player development, you say he didn't.

We can debate it all day long and research the internet from here to eternity, and it's not going to change your mind or my mind.

Again, I'm not exactly sure why there hasn't been a strong post presence at MU in a long time. I think it's probably a combination of factors (some of which Crean had control of, some of which he didn't).

The only reason I've posted in this thread is because it seems like people love to boil down complex situations to one simple point. "It was Crean's offense", "it was his lack of a big man coach", "it was because Crean hates big men", "it was because he didn't recruit in Wisconsin hard enough", etc. etc.

I can't believe it was/is that simple, guys.

I just can't. 

Quote from: 2002mualum on August 20, 2008, 09:15:05 AM
Fair enough... we can slice this anyway you want.

I would say that Crean did hire an adequate assistant who specialized in player development, you say he didn't.

We can debate it all day long and research the internet from here to eternity, and it's not going to change your mind or my mind.

Again, I'm not exactly sure why there hasn't been a strong post presence at MU in a long time. I think it's probably a combination of factors (some of which Crean had control of, some of which he didn't).

The only reason I've posted in this thread is because it seems like people love to boil down complex situations to one simple point. "It was Crean's offense", "it was his lack of a big man coach", "it was because Crean hates big men", "it was because he didn't recruit in Wisconsin hard enough", etc. etc.

I can't believe it was/is that simple, guys.

I just can't. 

Agreed.

But to Crean, it was that simple: "It's Indiana...It's Indiana." ;)

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 20, 2008, 03:14:10 PM
Agreed.

But to Crean, it was that simple: "It's Indiana...It's Indiana." ;)

You can joke all you want, this was a THE factor for  Copabianco.  He wouldn't give Crean a verbal to come play for him at MU, but did so almost immedeatly after Crean annouced he was going to IU.

Same coach. 
Same offense. 
Different school. 

Different recruiting results.

Maybe TC wasn't pushing that hard at MU...maybe TC saw IU coming...maybe Cappy (or as I like to call him Scott May and Kent Benson in a Blender) didn't want to commit during his HS season...but Joanie, keep thinking it was just the stripped pants, because Joanie, you're never wrong.

Quote from: tower912 on August 20, 2008, 08:44:57 AM
Murf, what do you see as the ceiling for Barro and Burke if they had been taught properly?   I think that both could have been significantly better, but Ooze was always going to be hampered by sub-par hands and Burke was always going to be hampered by his height.

I think Burke has overlifted as far as weights are concerned-----he's lost agility. He's made up for some of that agility loss by increased strength-----but agility is very important in BB and so his ceiling is lower than it otherwise would be.

Also I mentioned on these boards many times when Barro was a frosh/soph that he should have been on the hand squeezers to strengthen his fingers. Helped me a lot years ago.

Barro was basically slow----that is unless he was familiar with what he was doing (called conditioned reflexes)-----e.g. stepping out from behind the backboard to accept a dish off taking a step and dunking------he did that very quickly and effectively. That leads me to think that he had a lot of quality reps posting up he would have executed that a lot quicker as well.

Murfssius, in your expert trained internet tell all eye which one needs to lay off the weights and which one doesn't?


(http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/1207/nba_g_howard2_200.jpg)(http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/writers/kelly_dwyer/08/20/us.china.wrap/t1_0820_howard_getty.jpg)

or

(http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper1130/stills/ee8nto60.jpg)

Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on August 20, 2008, 03:43:13 PM
Maybe TC wasn't pushing that hard at MU...

Aha--we "cooled" on him!  THAT explains it! 

Did anyone ever tell you that you're sounding more like a rodent every day.

Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on August 20, 2008, 03:43:13 PM
but Joanie, keep thinking it was just the stripped pants, because Joanie, you're never wrong.

LOL.  This is SO funny.  It brings me back to 2005! How DID you come up with that.  You really should be writing for some big-time comedy show.  Your talent is SO wasted on this board.

BTW, Piano Bob, shouldn't you get back for your 2nd afternoon set.  It's almost six and the old-timers are getting worried.

Quote from: Stone Cold on August 20, 2008, 05:37:40 PM
Murfssius, in your expert trained internet tell all eye which one needs to lay off the weights and which one doesn't?


(http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/1207/nba_g_howard2_200.jpg)(http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/writers/kelly_dwyer/08/20/us.china.wrap/t1_0820_howard_getty.jpg)

or

(http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper1130/stills/ee8nto60.jpg)

To answer your question ALL of them should lay off the weights-----but the top picture has sculptured arm musceles in relation to the rest of their body (lithe bodies)-----Burke on the other hand looks like an NFL defensive tackle ----the top guys are going to have significant more body agility.

The difference in agility between an NFL WR and an NFL DT.

Quote from: Murffieus on August 20, 2008, 06:37:33 PM
To answer your question ALL of them should lay off the weights-----but the top picture has sculptured arm musceles in relation to the rest of their body (lithe bodies)-----Burke on the other hand looks like an NFL defensive tackle ----the top guys are going to have significant more body agility.

The difference in agility between an NFL WR and an NFL DT.

Ridiculous..

I don't even know where to begin.

Seriously, it must be fun to not be constrained by logic or proof.  If it pops into your head and makes sense to you, you just roll with it, reality be damned.

Quote from: Marquette84 on August 20, 2008, 05:51:26 PM
Aha--we "cooled" on him!  THAT explains it! 

Did anyone ever tell you that you're sounding more like a rodent every day.



LOL.  This is SO funny.  It brings me back to 2005! How DID you come up with that.  You really should be writing for some big-time comedy show.  Your talent is SO wasted on this board.

BTW, Piano Bob, shouldn't you get back for your 2nd afternoon set.  It's almost six and the old-timers are getting worried.

Not saying TC cooled on him at all, rather TC didn't want him to commit to MU when TC knew he may not be at MU for long.  Groundwork on these coaching searches is laid as soon as the previous coach is gone.  Joanie, I'll be you some of that 27 mill that your boy TC eased up on his pressing for MU commits when old IU was opened. 

Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on August 20, 2008, 10:07:05 PM
Not saying TC cooled on him at all, rather TC didn't want him to commit to MU when TC knew he may not be at MU for long.  Groundwork on these coaching searches is laid as soon as the previous coach is gone.. 

So let me get this straight. . .

Your theory is that with a recruit on the table and IU strongly courting Tony Bennett, Mark Few, and Sean Miller (and who knows who else), Crean is so confident that he's getting the job that he tells Capobianco NOT to make a non-binding verbal to him at MU because he MIGHT leave soon.

Do you ever engage your brain before you start to spew?

Because we all know that if Capobianco makes a VERBAL commitment to Crean at Marquette, he's absolutely LOCKED into MU and there is NO WAY he could ever change his decision if Crean were to leave. 

Meanwhile, since your brain doesn't think two seconds ahead, it may not have occurred to you that telling a recruit not to commit to MU because he's about to leave would put Crean in a pretty bad recruiting position if Tony Bennett (or Sean Miller or Mark Few, or anyone else who was on IU's list) had said "yes".

Because telling a recruit flat out that you're a short-timer at MU is a GREAT way to secure a commitment, wouldn't you say? 



I know that CDS is incurable and drives people to spew an inexhaustible amount of idiocy simply to avoid admitting a simple obvious point:  that some kids would rather attend Indiana than MU and are not concerned with Crean's offense for big men.

Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on August 20, 2008, 10:07:05 PM
Not saying TC cooled on him at all, rather TC didn't want him to commit to MU when TC knew he may not be at MU for long.  Groundwork on these coaching searches is laid as soon as the previous coach is gone.  Joanie, I'll be you some of that 27 mill that your boy TC eased up on his pressing for MU commits when old IU was opened. 

Dude, are you serious with this, or are you just venting about Crean again?

You think Crean limited his interaction with the kid because he knew he'd get the IU job?

C'mon man. Even you can't believe this stuff.

And if applying common sense and rational thought makes me "Joanie" as well... then so be it.  ::)

Quote from: 2002mualum on August 21, 2008, 08:03:21 AM
Dude, are you serious with this, or are you just venting about Crean again?

You think Crean limited his interaction with the kid because he knew he'd get the IU job?

C'mon man. Even you can't believe this stuff.

And if applying common sense and rational thought makes me "Joanie" as well... then so be it.  ::)

02, don't flatter yourself...you're only Riley.  SJS has a stranglehold on Joanie.

And yes I do think it's pausible that he didn't press Cappy for a commit.  I don't put much past the man.

Besides the other point (and perhaps more rationale point) is, how often does a guy commit during the season?  Considering TC joined IU before the Final Four, it's not that surprising that Cappy never committed to MU.  Why is everyone certain he wouldn't have committed to MU?  He never really got the chance, again based on the premise few players commit during the season.

Quote from: 2002mualum on August 21, 2008, 08:03:21 AM
Dude, are you serious with this, or are you just venting about Crean again?

You think Crean limited his interaction with the kid because he knew he'd get the IU job?

C'mon man. Even you can't believe this stuff.

And if applying common sense and rational thought makes me "Joanie" as well... then so be it.  ::)

02,

you have as much credibility on the Crean discussion as those who never gave him credit for anything.  I have never seen more fawning over a sports personality than you over TC.  If you really want to leave it alone, than stop with the Crean love every time someone criticizes him.

I agree that the conspiracy theorists have gone gaga with this Copobianco stuff, but you have zero balance in any Crean discussion.  Your protection of all things Crean is overboard, also.

Quote from: mu-rara on August 21, 2008, 09:31:13 AM
02,

you have as much credibility on the Crean discussion as those who never gave him credit for anything.  I have never seen more fawning over a sports personality than you over TC.  If you really want to leave it alone, than stop with the Crean love every time someone criticizes him.

I agree that the conspiracy theorists have gone gaga with this Copobianco stuff, but you have zero balance in any Crean discussion.  Your protection of all things Crean is overboard, also.

Well, I'm not exactly sure how to respond to this... so I will just go on record with this thought:

Tom Crean did not single handedly build MU, so he doesn't deserve all of the credit when things go right.

Tom Crean did not single handedly build MU, so he doesn't deserve all of the blame when things go wrong.

If people didn't try to pin every bad thing solely on Tom Crean, and diminish the good things he accomplished, I wouldn't be put in the position of "Tom Crean Defender".


No, I don't think Tom Crean is a saint.

And no, I don't give him credit for everything.

And yes, he talks in coach speak all of the time.

And yes, he has a bad haircut.

And yes, his departure from MU was suspect at best.

And yes, the lack of a big man hurt MU.

And yes, I wish MU wish MU had a better record in the tournament.

And yes, MU wasn't totally prepared for the KU game.

And yes, I wish Crean would use him timeouts.

And yes, DWade is a once in a lifetime player who really helped Crean.

And yes, Crean is a self-promoter. And yes, his IU presser was pretty lame.



I have my criticisms... trust me, it's just that there doesn't seem to be enough room on the "Tom Crean is a jerk" bandwagon for me.

I remember reading an interview that was done in late May or early June with Bennie Seltzer ... In it, the interviewer asked Seltzer what he would have been doing at that time if he was still at MU. Seltzer said that unlike the situation at IU, MU would been done with 09 recruiting and he would have been working on other efforts.

That interview leads me to believe it was very likely that Capobianco would have verbal to MU if Crean was still here. Just because Capobianco didn't committ to MU by March, didn't mean that a future verbal was out of the question. As DKCL points out, player usually don't committ during the basketball season and coaches are focused on upcoming games (especially in Feb/March) rather than recruiting.

Quote from: MUSF on August 20, 2008, 08:32:44 PM
Ridiculous..

I don't even know where to begin.

Seriously, it must be fun to not be constrained by logic or proof.  If it pops into your head and makes sense to you, you just roll with it, reality be damned.

You're talking to someone who lifted weights back when BB players generally didn't touch them (1950s)----helped my rebounding quite a bit (one of only 3 MU BB players ever to average 14 rebs/game for a season), but hurt my agility.

Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on August 20, 2008, 10:07:05 PM
Not saying TC cooled on him at all, rather TC didn't want him to commit to MU when TC knew he may not be at MU for long.  Groundwork on these coaching searches is laid as soon as the previous coach is gone.  Joanie, I'll be you some of that 27 mill that your boy TC eased up on his pressing for MU commits when old IU was opened. 

Why would it matter....it's only a verbal and as we all know, you can get out of a verbal easily.  I have a heard time buying this one to be honest.  Crean could just take the guy along with him as he did with WRITTEN commitments...verbals are even easier.  Besides, what guarantee is there that Crean would have been given the job considering who else they were going after.

Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on August 21, 2008, 09:06:34 AM

Besides the other point (and perhaps more rationale point) is, how often does a guy commit during the season?  Considering TC joined IU before the Final Four, it's not that surprising that Cappy never committed to MU.  Why is everyone certain he wouldn't have committed to MU?  He never really got the chance, again based on the premise few players commit during the season.

Capobianco's season ended 2/24. Capobianco had plenty of time to give his verbal MU even if he DID want to wait until after his season ended.

Oh, wait, we're supposed to believe that Crean wouldn't push for a non-binding verbal from a guy he wanted at MU and instead told him that he was leaving MU to take the Indiana job.  He made this statment MORE THAN A MONTH before IU actually offered the job to Tony Bennett.    

As I said, CDS causes one to say some pretty idiodic things.

Meanwhile, the truth remains:  Capobianco is an example of a big man Crean was recruiting to MU who was unconcerned with Crean's offensive style or big man development.  

Cappy = Amoroso

And 2002...you forgot to mention the tan.

Outside of merritt in Crean's first recruiting class, he was never able to recruit a quality big in the next 8 years at MU-----should be obvious to everyone what the reason was----and that is Crean's offense didn't lend itself to bigs creating their  own shot off postup moves.

Someone who has NBA ambitions want's to be put in circumstances where he has a chance to showcase his abilities-----Creans offense was guard orientated in creating shots-----little opportunity for bigs!

When one is looking for a job------one gravitates to where they will have the most opportunity to develop their skills. A graduate tax lawyer isn't apt to join a firm that specializes in trying personal injury cases----no matter how prestigious that firm might be in that regard.

Quote from: Murffieus on August 21, 2008, 04:41:00 PM
You're talking to someone who lifted weights back when BB players generally didn't touch them (1950s)----helped my rebounding quite a bit (one of only 3 MU BB players ever to average 14 rebs/game for a season), but hurt my agility.

The year you avg 14 boards a game, was that the year MU lost to St Norberts?

No ----the 14 rebound season was the year before MU lost to St Norberts. Please keep in mind that the year
MU lost to St Norbert's, Murf was team MVP-------so you can't pin that one on him----Murf did his job superbly.

Quote from: Murffieus on August 22, 2008, 06:52:18 AM
No ----the 14 rebound season was the year before MU lost to St Norberts. Please keep in mind that the year
MU lost to St Norbert's, Murf was team MVP-------so you can't pin that one on him----Murf did his job superbly.

What a great teammate. You must have been very popular in the locker room.

Murf got/gets along with just about everyone he has ever come in contact with. As a testimonial to that, Murf was elected captain of his MU team by his teammates------teammates don't elect people as their team captain that they don't like.

Murf was also the only 3 time president of the Marquette "M" Club in MU history (1979-82). Again former MU athletes don't re-elect people to that position unless they LIKE that person.

Quote from: Murffieus on August 22, 2008, 07:55:23 AM
Murf got/gets along with just about everyone he has ever come in contact with. As a testimonial to that, Murf was elected captain of his MU team by his teammates------teammates don't elect people as their team captain that they don't like.

Murf was also the only 3 time president of the Marquette "M" Club in MU history (1979-82). Again former MU athletes don't re-elect people to that position unless they LIKE that person.

Well, that all could be true... but a comment like "Murf was team MVP-------so you can't pin that one on him----Murf did his job superbly." is crappy and you know it.

If any team member of MU said that, I would be very disappointed.

Those comments aren't "crappy". Some guy comes on the board trying to diminish Murf by suggesting that Murf was responsible for an MU loss to St Norberts-----I can't let that stand!

Quote from: Murffieus on August 22, 2008, 10:32:24 AM
Those comments aren't "crappy". Some guy comes on the board trying to diminish Murf by suggesting that Murf was responsible for an MU loss to St Norberts-----I can't let that stand!

Either I'm clueless, or entertained with Murf's use of the third person.

Although you did let it go in the last (above) statement.

Quote from: Murffieus on August 22, 2008, 10:32:24 AM
Those comments aren't "crappy". Some guy comes on the board trying to diminish Murf by suggesting that Murf was responsible for an MU loss to St Norberts-----I can't let that stand!

Murf, you were a good player. I know that. Most people know that. I think the poster was trying to make a point that you might not be the "world's authority" on weightlifting for basketball because you did it back in the 50's. You are certainly a bright guy, so surely you must realize that there are some very talented people out their training players today. I doubt that you can tell (from pictures) who needs more or less weight training.

With that said, I'm out of this thread. I've posted WAAAAYYYY too much.

My keyboard has gotten the best of me.

I'm not the world's authority on "weightlifting", but I do understand the basics through personal experience. Like anything else, one can overdo weightlifting and at that point agility suffers.

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 22, 2008, 10:43:59 AM
Either I'm clueless, or entertained with Murf's use of the third person.

Although you did let it go in the last (above) statement.

Maybe Murf is having an out of body experience.  By the way, Murf, do you remember Jim Kollar and Walt Mangham, the dynamic duo from Western PA?  Or Gene "Geno" Suppelsa?  Ahhh, the good old days.

Sure do-----Saw Jim two years ago at our BB reunion-----no one knows what happened to Walt except that I
came up with a picture and article off the internet where he was pictured with the guy who broke his national high jump record. Gene passed away about 6-7 years ago.

I was at the St. Norberts game and remember Mike Moran missing free throws to tie/win with time expired.

You have a very good memory!

You also might recall that they held the ball on us near the mid court line-----that was a very good stratagy as there was no shot clock to force them to shoot------also we had beaten them by 40 points and 30 points the two previous years.

Can we get a check to see if Murff is Rickey Henderson?

All this 3rd person talk, just reminds me of Mr. Henderson way too much

I haven't been reading this thread.  If I had, I would have locked it a while ago for the personal attacks.

I'm really sick of the complete disrespect that's displayed for a former MU basketball player.

Knock it off.