How interesting that Big Men now get some special attention from Crean

[nola03]

2) I think there is merit to look back at Crean's accomplishments and struggles at MU. To address all Crean mentions with "Get over it" is nonsense.

If those mentions dealt with Marquette exclusively, you wouldn't ever see a "get over it".

When people post things about who Crean has hired at INDIANA, what kind of pants Crean's assistant coach from INDIANA is wearing, which latest recruit committed to Crean at INDIANA, etc., then they deserve a "get over it".

For the next 6-18 months there will be a segment of fans (i.e. Buzz' Bulldog) who claim they couldn't care less about Crean anymore yet they'll provide a near once-weekly update of the latest goings on in Bloomington that makes their declaration look foolish. They have to "get over it".

If it continues deep into 2009, we'll have our own version of the Bill Self-obsessed Illinois fans.

[tower912]

When we had big men with more than rudimentary skills, RJax and Merrit, they got touches, RJax down low, Merrit in the high, low, and wide posts.    This was in the same offense that TC ran all 9 years.  Ergo, the problem was not the offense, it was in the quality of bigs that TC landed and how he developed them.   And then it became self-perpetuating.   Big men would look at MU and decide the offense wasn't for them, so we never got a quality big man and the offense never focused on getting the ball to the post.   However, to say it was an inherent flaw in the offense is to ignore how it was run in 03.   I was never sure which way the causality went, if it was the fact that he couldn't develop them the reason he couldn't land them, or that the fact he couldn't land quality kept him from developing them.    And he never had one leave with more skills than they arrived with.   That we can all agree on.    But, when he had big men with a modicum, they got touches.   That is fact.   Was I the only one praying at times they would STOP giving Merrit the ball?

[MUSF]

79Warrior et all who are complaining about this post.  It's called sarcasm, joking around, having fun...whatever you want to call it. 

Settle down on your +1's and "stop obsessing over Crean rants"

Yeah, it is a lot of fun.

[MUSF]

Hmmm. Nice interactions.

1) I think Crean's inability to land bigger guys was due to two reasons: a) no big man developer as an assistant and b) the shift to smaller guards. The latter begs the question: Was the shift due to the lack of landing effective, quality big men or simply a coaching preference? (A "chicken or the egg" question)

2) I think there is merit to look back at Crean's accomplishments and struggles at MU. To address all Crean mentions with "Get over it" is nonsense.

1) Why do you insist on ignoring c) there aren't a lot of quality bigs out there to land, most are projects.

2) What merit is there in a post that clearly infers the same tired theory that somehow Crean intentionally decided not to recruit or develop bigs? IMO, that theory is ridiculous.

[77ncaachamps]

1) Why do you insist on ignoring c) there aren't a lot of quality bigs out there to land, most are projects.

2) What merit is there in a post that clearly infers the same tired theory that somehow Crean intentionally decided not to recruit or develop bigs? IMO, that theory is ridiculous.

#1 - Well then, almost all D-I prospects are projects. Yes, big men are hard to find but essential to a championship. Merritt was a solid frontcourt player and we didn't have a recruit that contributed as much as he did during the Crean tenure. What makes me hopeful that we will be able to recruit and develop the bigs (better than the previous staff) is that Buzz and Layer were on the CSU staff that developed Sixer C Jason Smith, and Benford helped recruit and develop Pacer F Ike Diogu and King F/C Kenny Thomas.

2) Make the inference, but I think it is worthy of debate. We know Stephens was the big-man coach, but who replaced him? Crean? One of his assistants? I think the discussion about development of big men in this thread is showing a dichotomy of recruitment (and maybe development) of bigs under Buzz as opposed to Crean.

And to Nola's comment - "If it continues deep into 2009, we'll have our own version of the Bill Self-obsessed Illinois fans": I don't think that will happen. Self won an NCAA Championship...Crean's got a long way to go. And hopefully Buzz can beat him to it!

[bma725]

Hmmm. Nice interactions.

1) I think Crean's inability to land bigger guys was due to two reasons: a) no big man developer as an assistant and b) the shift to smaller guards. The latter begs the question: Was the shift due to the lack of landing effective, quality big men or simply a coaching preference? (A "chicken or the egg" question)

The notion that he didn't have a big man developer as an assistant just isn't true at all.  Even after Dwayne Stephens left, he still had guys in there that were noted for their development of big men in other places, it just didn't work out at MU. 

Dan Pannagio is considered one of the best coaches in the country at developing big men.  That's what he specialized in with the Trailblazers, that's what he did at Indiana, it's how he's made a living in the coaching profession.   Bo Ellis was the big man coach under Dukiet, O'Neill and Deane, and did a damn good job of it then...and he had the same responsibilities under Crean.  Even Rabadeuax was a big man coach in the past.  He did it under Sampson at OU, working with Najera and Aaron McGhee.

For whatever reason, it just didn't work out at MU.  But they had the coaches in place to develop the players.  So the question becomes was it Crean going away from that style, or was it the players they brought in not having enough talent regardless of how well coached they may have been.

[bma725]

Thanks Chicos for the clarification.  I did mean landed, and modified accordingly.  And if you want to talk about "post players" that list of 12 (forgot Barro) 13 with Sanders shrinks to: Barro, Lott, Burke, MJax, Rjax, Mbakwe Grimm, Sanders, and Merritt.

I just think there must be something there if TC could only land 9 guys with a jump hook.  And of those 9, Barro was a massive project, RJax was a transfer, and MJax was forced to play guard because MU didn't have anyone else to bring the ball up court.

You forgot Amoroso as well.  He's 6'8.  And while he did play on the perimeter occasionally, the vast majority of his play was in the post.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The notion that he didn't have a big man developer as an assistant just isn't true at all.  Even after Dwayne Stephens left, he still had guys in there that were noted for their development of big men in other places, it just didn't work out at MU. 

Dan Pannagio is considered one of the best coaches in the country at developing big men.  That's what he specialized in with the Trailblazers, that's what he did at Indiana, it's how he's made a living in the coaching profession.   Bo Ellis was the big man coach under Dukiet, O'Neill and Deane, and did a damn good job of it then...and he had the same responsibilities under Crean.  Even Rabadeuax was a big man coach in the past.  He did it under Sampson at OU, working with Najera and Aaron McGhee.

For whatever reason, it just didn't work out at MU.  But they had the coaches in place to develop the players.  So the question becomes was it Crean going away from that style, or was it the players they brought in not having enough talent regardless of how well coached they may have been.

Thank you for some clarity...I was going to say the same thing, but people are just set in their views on this stuff.  Of course we had big men coaches after Stephens, to suggest otherwise is plain wrong.

Just like the statement that no big man ever left any better when he came in.  Come on.  As much as people get on Merritt, he left a better player then he was coming in.  RJax was better at MU then at MSU.  etc, etc.

Crean wanted quality bigs, he didn't get them.  At the same time, the guards on MU's team were blowing up left and right so MU got pegged as a place for premier guards.  It would have been great to land a Stiemsma, Butch, Nankivil, McFarland, etc., but MU didn't for whatever reason.

[tower912]

My point is that the offensive system is not inherently biased against bigs.

[Murffieus]

Crean's offense not biased against bigs per se----but the way Crean structured his "guard friendly" offense, the bigs were biased against playing for MU.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Crean's offense not biased against bigs per se----but the way Crean structured his "guard friendly" offense, the bigs were biased against playing for MU.

That is not factual, that is your speculation.

Crean recruited a lot of big men who ultimately decided to attend different universities. There are a ton of reasons why kids chose certain schools (over MU).

We all know it's not as simple as "Crean's offense is too guard friendly".

Let's not apply one rationale as a blanket answer. That's silly.

[radome]

It may have been the other way around.  If you are unable to get big men then your offense is forced to be built around guards.

[RedWebster]

From what I understand, Crean prefers big women.

[4everwarriors]

Ah, maybe he prefers big men?

[🏀]

Ah, maybe he prefers big men?

Joani does.

[MR.HAYWARD]

Ah, maybe he prefers big men?


Joani does.

I can verify that.

[mu_hilltopper]

ok, people, let's move along here.

[79Warrior]

79Warrior et all who are complaining about this post.  It's called sarcasm, joking around, having fun...whatever you want to call it. 

Settle down on your +1's and "stop obsessing over Crean rants"

We have just as much a right to complain about your Crean issues as you have to post them.

[Murffieus]

That is not factual, that is your speculation.

Crean recruited a lot of big men who ultimately decided to attend different universities. There are a ton of reasons why kids chose certain schools (over MU).

We all know it's not as simple as "Crean's offense is too guard friendly".

Let's not apply one rationale as a blanket answer. That's silly.

You pan my statement that MU's offense was "too guard friendly"-----but then you say that they simply decided to go elsewhere-----well that begs the question----WHY DID THEY CHOOSE TO GO ELSEWHERE?

There is no other explanation as Crean NEVER was able to successfully recruit a quality HS postup/big since Merritt in his first recruiting class!

[reinko]

I think a lot of people are making strong points on both sides of the arguement.  Obvioulsy TC tried to recruit big men, he just wasn't all that sucessful at landing them.  So you have to explore why?  Well initially, when TC came in, we were a middle of the road C-USA team.  We are not going to land any stud big guys unless it involved an Escalade and duffle bag full of cash.

So then why not in the later years?  Well, my best guess, is after the Final Four, TC had a fresh opportunity to go out and recruit at a whole new level.    If you look at who TC landed the 2 years after the FF: Brandon Bell (transfer), Carlton Christian (transfer), Dameon Mason (transfer), Niv Berkowitz (transfer), Amaroso (transfer), Ooze (4 years).  Then his transfers: MJax and Kinsella.

And in the subsequent years he landed the big 3, and thus destined to be a guard oriented offense, and any well-polished big men would go to another school where they would be the focal point of the offense, or at the very least the secondary option.

I think where the true arguement lays, is did TC value guard play, athleticism, and the 3-point shot more than post players?  In my opinion yes.

[The Lens]

At a team function a then current big man told our table straight out that MU did zero big man drills in practice. 

We all nearly threw up. 

[bma725]

So then why not in the later years?  Well, my best guess, is after the Final Four, TC had a fresh opportunity to go out and recruit at a whole new level.    If you look at who TC landed the 2 years after the FF: Brandon Bell (transfer), Carlton Christian (transfer), Dameon Mason (transfer), Niv Berkowitz (transfer), Amaroso (transfer), Hanley (transfer), Ooze (4 years).  Then his transfers: MJax and Kinsella.

Hanley was a walk on, not a scholarship player.  And he didn't transfer, he blew out his knee and had to stop playing basketball.

[🏀]

Hanley was a walk on, not a scholarship player.  And he didn't transfer, he blew out his knee and had to stop playing basketball.

What about Shane Grube?

[reinko]

Hanley was a walk on, not a scholarship player.  And he didn't transfer, he blew out his knee and had to stop playing basketball.

]

Modified.  Thanks for the correction.

[bma725]

What about Shane Grube?

Also a walk on, not a scholarship player.  Made the team because he's Travis Diener's cousin.  Transferred to Division III Lakeland College in Sheboygan which was a more appropriate level for him.