How interesting that Big Men now get some special attention from Crean

[77ncaachamps]

McLeod joins Hoosier staff

BLOOMINGTON, Ind. (AP) -- Former NBA player Roshown McLeod has been hired as an assistant coach at Indiana.

New coach Tom Crean said Thursday that McLeod will work with the Hoosiers' inside players. The 6-foot-8 McLeod played at St. John's and Duke and was a first-round pick by Atlanta in the 1998 NBA draft.

He later played for Philadelphia and Boston and averaged 7.2 points and 2.7 rebounds in 113 career games. He later was an assistant at Fairfield and coach and director of basketball operations at Woodward Academy in Atlanta.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/basketball/ncaa/08/14/mcleod.ap/index.html


So who was hired by Crean to work with our inside players when Stephens left?

[MUSF]

I'm sure that good big men coaches, just like good big men, are not a dime a dozen.

Do you really think Crean woke up every day at MU and said, "you know what, F*** big men, don't want 'em, don't need 'em, don't really want to teach and train the ones I've got."  It may be that it is slightly easier to attract these guys to Indiana than MU.

I know a lot of you are still butt hurt about Crean but please, move on.

[MR.HAYWARD]

well actually i think it is kind of funny.  first of all the guy is 6'8" tall and if any of you remeber him he was by no means a "big Man"  actually more a 3 than a 4.  but whatever ...kind of a moot point any way...you do not need to be an ex player or 7 feet tall to teach big men.
recruiting them would be a start and he nether did it here or has done it at Iu.  meanwhile Buzz has already beagan to rectify the issue.

[Pakuni]

What's really funny is that 4+ months after the fact, some around here continue to obsess over every move, no matter how minor, of the former coach.
Get over it, already.

[MUSF]

well actually i think it is kind of funny.  first of all the guy is 6'8" tall and if any of you remeber him he was by no means a "big Man"  actually more a 3 than a 4.  but whatever ...kind of a moot point any way...you do not need to be an ex player or 7 feet tall to teach big men.
recruiting them would be a start and he nether did it here or has done it at Iu.  meanwhile Buzz has already beagan to rectify the issue.

Really, Buzz is rectifiying the issue? Don't get me wrong, I love the recruiting job Buzz is doing but I would hardly call an unproven kid and a relatively unknown Canadian a rectification.

Maybe you are right. Maybe Buzz will be more successful with bigs but I wouldn't count your chickens.

Bottom line; elite bigs are hard to come by.  That's why most of them end up at traditionally elite schools.  Sometimes schools get lucky with projects.  More often, they don't.  Please, let's put this to bed and dance with the girl we brought.

[Mayor McCheese]

didn't Robert Jackson help with the team... I thought he did.  Not positive on this one though.

[Murffieus]

Crean's offense is NOT big man friendly----all they do in the crean offense is go out on the perimeter and sit picks for guards-----or hide behind the backboard waiting for dishoffs from penetrating guards.

No opportunity for bigs to create their own shot downlow off a postup. Burke came here as a frosh with some excellent postup moves and savvy-----then a combination of too much weightlifting and not getting the reps posting up and he's regressed as a postup operator.

[muball]

Agree the offense did not provide alot of opportunities for post players, or could it be the post players just were not good offensive players, we can discuss that forever. Burke did not come to MU with the post moves that you suggest. At Katrina he spent alot of time working on the moves by himself on a side basket and I believe Dan P was working with him (Dan left after one year) in the scrimmage he really didnt show any offense being a freshman and adjusting to the intense level of play. 

[tower912]

Murf, you don't have the nerve to post anything about TC's offense being unfriendly to bigs on Dodd's board, having been thoroughly beaten on that one.   Either TC couldn't recruit them or couldn't develop them, but when he had the one accomplished post player in his MU tenure, RJax got lots of touches in the post.    Go back and look at those 2003 tapes and say again that a big man with skills won't get used in Crean's offense.    Just another case of Murf world vs. reality.    Now, perhaps other coaches used that premise to recruit big men Crean was after, thereby denying him quality bigs, thereby perpetuating the myth.    But, RJax, and to a lesser extent Merrit (though he got the ball too damn often in the wide post) got their touches in the Crean offense.    Go to the tapes.

[Murffieus]

Agree the offense did not provide alot of opportunities for post players, or could it be the post players just were not good offensive players, we can discuss that forever. Burke did not come to MU with the post moves that you suggest. At Katrina he spent alot of time working on the moves by himself on a side basket and I believe Dan P was working with him (Dan left after one year) in the scrimmage he really didnt show any offense being a freshman and adjusting to the intense level of play. 

You must have seen a different scrimmage than I saw. maybe you were too close to the floor----maybe you got Burke mixed up with Lott-----maybe you don't understand the postup concept-----I don'y know what your problem is here, but I know what I saw-----I saw a very promising postup prospect who could go right or left with his back to the hoop.

[Murffieus]

Murf, you don't have the nerve to post anything about TC's offense being unfriendly to bigs on Dodd's board, having been thoroughly beaten on that one.   Either TC couldn't recruit them or couldn't develop them, but when he had the one accomplished post player in his MU tenure, RJax got lots of touches in the post.    Go back and look at those 2003 tapes and say again that a big man with skills won't get used in Crean's offense.    Just another case of Murf world vs. reality.    Now, perhaps other coaches used that premise to recruit big men Crean was after, thereby denying him quality bigs, thereby perpetuating the myth.    But, RJax, and to a lesser extent Merrit (though he got the ball too damn often in the wide post) got their touches in the Crean offense.    Go to the tapes.

What are you talking about?  I've been talking about TC's offense not being friendly to bigs for years on the Scout board.

RJax came to MU as an already established postup----he was a two time all SE conference center-----he wasn't recruited by TC, he fell into TC's lap------recruits end up in places where they will be developed----under Crean quality HS bigs didn't see any future at MU.

[tower912]

Classic Murf.   Your original point is that TC's offense is unfriendly to post players.   Silver Warior (IIRC) completely debunked that notion.  RJax's touches and Merrit's touches completely debunk the notion.   So in your latest, you say that RJax arrived as a completed product and say that TC couldn't develop bigs.   And there we agree.  RJax was a fairly finished product.   TC had trouble developing bigs, IMO his greatest weakness as a coach, and I can't decide if he can't develop them because he can't recruit them, or can't recruit them because he can't develop them.     But it had nothing to do with the offense that was run and RJax proves it.   When TC had a post player that was skilled, that post player got touches in the exact same offense he used every other year he was here.     So, if you say TC couldn't develop/recruit quality bigs, we agree.   If you say the offense he ran is the culprit, we disagree.   

[reinko]

Tower, do you think some recruits (bigs) were turned off by the guard-oriented offense that dominated TC's offense for most of his tenure?  I think it's definite possibility.

[Murffieus]

Classic Murf.   Your original point is that TC's offense is unfriendly to post players.   Silver Warior (IIRC) completely debunked that notion.  RJax's touches and Merrit's touches completely debunk the notion.   So in your latest, you say that RJax arrived as a completed product and say that TC couldn't develop bigs.   And there we agree.  RJax was a fairly finished product.   TC had trouble developing bigs, IMO his greatest weakness as a coach, and I can't decide if he can't develop them because he can't recruit them, or can't recruit them because he can't develop them.     But it had nothing to do with the offense that was run and RJax proves it.   When TC had a post player that was skilled, that post player got touches in the exact same offense he used every other year he was here.     So, if you say TC couldn't develop/recruit quality bigs, we agree.   If you say the offense he ran is the culprit, we disagree.   

Tower----You mean you have one year out of nine years where a big (RJAX) got some touches and that is 5 years ago? Recruits don't base their decisions on what took place years ago------they want to see where they fit NOW. Besides RJAX wasn't developed at MU----he came in an established postup (a 2 time all SE player)-----Crean had no history whatsoever in developing a big ---NONE, ZIP----and the proof lies in the fact that he could never -----and I mean NEVER recruit a quality postup out of HS once it became known that all they were used for in his offense was as canon fodder for guards!

[79Warrior]

I'm sure that good big men coaches, just like good big men, are not a dime a dozen.

Do you really think Crean woke up every day at MU and said, "you know what, F*** big men, don't want 'em, don't need 'em, don't really want to teach and train the ones I've got."  It may be that it is slightly easier to attract these guys to Indiana than MU.

I know a lot of you are still butt hurt about Crean but please, move on.

+1.

When are some of these guys going to get over it. Crean moved on, they should to.

[reinko]

79Warrior et all who are complaining about this post.  It's called sarcasm, joking around, having fun...whatever you want to call it. 

Settle down on your +1's and "stop obsessing over Crean rants"

[Daniel]

I really don't care what Crean does anymore.  What MU and Buzz does, I am very interested in.

[RawdogDX]

Tower, do you think some recruits (bigs) were turned off by the guard-oriented offense that dominated TC's offense for most of his tenure?  I think it's definite possibility.

I think tower's point was that the reason it was 'guard-oriented' was because it couldn't be big man oriented with the personal we have.  If crean had recruited post players then the offence would not have been guard dominated because then he would have players to use.  WHat was he supposed to do with the dearth of post talent he brought in?  Tripple barro's shot attempts per game in order to attract some recruits?  We would have lost those games.

[reinko]

I think tower's point was that the reason it was 'guard-oriented' was because it couldn't be big man oriented with the personal we have.  If crean had recruited post players then the offence would not have been guard dominated because then he would have players to use.  WHat was he supposed to do with the dearth of post talent he brought in?  Tripple barro's shot attempts per game in order to attract some recruits?  We would have lost those games.

I hear you that on RawDog.  But if you look the ALL the players TC ever landed, the vast majority of them were 6'7" and under.  After some quick research here is the list of players above 6'7".  Sorry if I missed a couple...

~Fitz 6'8
~Burke 6'9
~Blackledge 6'8
~Mbakwe 6'8
~Kinsella 7'0
~Lott 6'8
~Novak 6'10
~Grimm 6'10
~M. Jackson 6'8
~Merritt 6'11
~R. Jackson 6'11

You are looking at 11 players over 6'7''.  And if you look at that group, 2 were transfers (Blackledge and RJax, 2 were tall shooting guards (Novak and fitz), 1 one was kinda useless (Kinsella).  And what do you have left? Merritt, Grimm, Mbakwe, Marcus Jackson.

I think there is something to the point that Crean peaked at his "big" recruiting with Scott Merritt in his first class.

Thoughts??

[Nukem2]

I hear you that on RawDog.  But if you look the ALL the players TC ever recruited, the vast majority of them were 6'7" and under.  After some quick research here is the list of players above 6'7".  Sorry if I missed a couple...

~Fitz 6'8
~Burke 6'9
~Blackledge 6'8
~Mbakwe 6'8
~Kinsella 7'0
~Lott 6'8
~Novak 6'10
~Grimm 6'10
~M. Jackson 6'8
~Merritt 6'11
~R. Jackson 6'11

You are looking at 11 players over 6'7''.  And if you look at that group, 2 were transfers (Blackledge and RJax, 2 were tall shooting guards (Novak and fitz), 1 one was kinda useless (Kinsella).  And what do you have left? Merritt, Grimm, Mbakwe, Marcus Jackson.

I think there is something to the point that Crean peaked at his "big" recruiting with Scott Merritt in his first class.

Thoughts??Acutally MJax played quite well once he was healthy.  Mbakwe will do fine.

[downtown85]

How tall was Sanders?

[ChicosBailBonds]

I hear you that on RawDog.  But if you look the ALL the players TC ever recruited, the vast majority of them were 6'7" and under.  After some quick research here is the list of players above 6'7".  Sorry if I missed a couple...

~Fitz 6'8
~Burke 6'9
~Blackledge 6'8
~Mbakwe 6'8
~Kinsella 7'0
~Lott 6'8
~Novak 6'10
~Grimm 6'10
~M. Jackson 6'8
~Merritt 6'11
~R. Jackson 6'11

You are looking at 11 players over 6'7''.  And if you look at that group, 2 were transfers (Blackledge and RJax, 2 were tall shooting guards (Novak and fitz), 1 one was kinda useless (Kinsella).  And what do you have left? Merritt, Grimm, Mbakwe, Marcus Jackson.

I think there is something to the point that Crean peaked at his "big" recruiting with Scott Merritt in his first class.

Thoughts??

I think you need to change your post....he recruited plenty of over 6'7" kids, he just didn't land them.  Big difference.

It will be interesting to see if Crean is still unable to land those types of players at IU and whether Buzz can get them to Marquette consistently.

[reinko]

Thanks Chicos for the clarification.  I did mean landed, and modified accordingly.  And if you want to talk about "post players" that list of 12 (forgot Barro) 13 with Sanders shrinks to: Barro, Lott, Burke, MJax, Rjax, Mbakwe Grimm, Sanders, and Merritt.

I just think there must be something there if TC could only land 9 guys with a jump hook.  And of those 9, Barro was a massive project, RJax was a transfer, and MJax was forced to play guard because MU didn't have anyone else to bring the ball up court.

[77ncaachamps]

Hmmm. Nice interactions.

1) I think Crean's inability to land bigger guys was due to two reasons: a) no big man developer as an assistant and b) the shift to smaller guards. The latter begs the question: Was the shift due to the lack of landing effective, quality big men or simply a coaching preference? (A "chicken or the egg" question)

2) I think there is merit to look back at Crean's accomplishments and struggles at MU. To address all Crean mentions with "Get over it" is nonsense.

[Murffieus]

I think you need to change your post....he recruited plenty of over 6'7" kids, he just didn't land them.  Big difference.

It will be interesting to see if Crean is still unable to land those types of players at IU and whether Buzz can get them to Marquette consistently.

If Buzz incorporates Burke & Mbakwe into the offense and lets them create their own shot and teaches them how----the bigs will come-----however if he continues the practice of having his bigs just setting picks for guards and hiding his bigs behind the backboard waiting for dishoffs, he'll have a lot of trouble landing quality bigs.