per the Washinton Post.
Now it may just be me but I really think Crean is digging his grave already at IU. All one has to do is look at the recruitng classes that the top notch Big ten schools are signing. OSU, MSU and even illinois and Wisconsin are signing or have coming in a whole string of 4 and 5 star recruits.
Crean has gotten a bunch of kids to commit to the program but none of them have the type of talent that IU fans are going to expect or honestly need to beat their foes.
Rivers, for example, is a 3 star kid out of HS and we have seen that while he is a decent player and a very solid defender he is not going to lead them anywhere. Not to mention he will take a scholarship for a year when they need one and will be with the program for 3 years. He does not match the abilties of the kid's talent on the teams IU is trying to catch. Another example of that is Capobianco, a 3 star kid that did not exactly have a long line of top programs after him. Nick Williams and Jones will be solid players in time but again are 3 star type players when their peers are signing 4 and 5 star players. Creek is more highly rated than the others but there appaers to be no difference makers in his recruits to this point. The only top notch Big Ten team that gets away with recruitng like that is Wisconsin becuase of their system and becuase as much as I dislike him Bo is an outstanding coach. It appears to me that his incoming talent that he will be saddled with for the next 4-5 years is no better than a 4th or 5th place finsih in the BIg Ten. Very similar to his success at MU. The big difference is while fans at Mu may be happy or content with 4th, 5th, 6th place BE finishes. IU fans will be more than restless with 4th or 5th palce finishes in the Big Ten come years 4 and 5 in Bloomington. Crean needs a couple difference makers real soon or his lot will be cast. It also appears he will have a guard only lineup in Bloomington and then the Iu fans will get to hear how the guards need to rebound better. It also appears that for the first time in my life I will actually root for Wisconsin even if it is only one or two times a year.
not sure about the reasons or TC bringing in the other recruits, but, in Rivers case, could it have been a concession to Doc?
Rivers plans to enroll at Indiana
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
http://washingtontimes.com/article/20080510/SPORTS/541289576/1005/sports
Georgetown guard Jeremiah Rivers, who announced his intention to transfer this past week, plans to enroll at Indiana, according to a source close to the program.
A 6-foot-4 guard who served as the Hoyas' defensive stopper during his two seasons with the Hoyas, Rivers joins another former Big East performer in Bloomington, Ind., where he will attempt to help former Marquette coach Tom Crean rebuild the Hoosiers.
The Hoosiers return only one guard (freshman Jordan Crawford) with any experience after Eric Gordon declared for the NBA Draft, A.J. Ratliff exhausted his eligibility and Armon Bassett and Jamarcus Ellis were dismissed in the past two months.
According to a story published in yesterday's Boston Globe, Celtics coach Doc Rivers was not pleased with his son's decision to leave Georgetown.
But the young guard felt like a shift to Crean's perimeter-oriented system would help him improve on last season's pedestrian production: 2.5 points and 2.4 rebounds in 18.4 minutes.
— Barker Davis
--------------
Boston Globe
May 9, 2008
http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/05/09/garnett_voted_to_nba_first_team/
Georgetown University announced Wednesday that Jeremiah Rivers, son of Doc, has decided to transfer. The elder Rivers said his son, a guard who just completed his sophomore season, is considering four to five schools.
Rivers averaged 2.5 points, 2.4 rebounds, and 1 assist in 18.6 minutes for the Hoyas last season.
"It's something he wanted to do," said Doc Rivers. "I loved where he was at. He wants to be happy in a different system. He loved Coach [John ] Thompson. I love Coach Thompson. It was a tough one.
"I didn't try [to change his mind] because if I did and it didn't work out then it's Dad's fault. I did try to show him where he was at as far as school. He was playing a lot and had a great chance to start the following year.
"Kids, sometimes they want to do things and you just support him. That's what you do as a parent."
That seems to dispel the myth that some have pushed that Rivers didn't want to play for Crean. Unfortunately it seems the kid just didn't want to play at MU, dealing with his father's shadow was too much.
I completely agree with the post above (first one). Crean is NOT getting the type of kid to compete with MSU, OSU, Wisconsin or Ill. Next year they will be 11th in the big ten. In three years, they are looking at fifth. Rivers in not the kid to change this and Crean just used up another spot for the next three years.
I don't think IU fans had a fifth place big ten finish in 3 to 4 years as their idea when they hired Crean.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on May 10, 2008, 10:55:56 AM
per the Washinton Post.
Now it may just be me but I really think Crean is digging his grave already at IU. All one has to do is look at the recruitng classes that the top notch Big ten schools are signing. OSU, MSU and even illinois and Wisconsin are signing or have coming in a whole string of 4 and 5 star recruits.
Crean has gotten a bunch of kids to commit to the program but none of them have the type of talent that IU fans are going to expect or honestly need to beat their foes.
Nick Williams = Four stars, RSCI top 100
Maurice Creek = Four stars, Scout #76
He's been on the job for a month and already landed a couple of four-star, top 100 kids and is on the list of
six of Scout's top 27 players the Class of 2009. He'll do just fine at Indiana and the notion that he won't is wishful thinking among the sour grapes crowd.
Quote from: bma725 on May 10, 2008, 11:03:00 AM
That seems to dispel the myth that some have pushed that Rivers didn't want to play for Crean. Unfortunately it seems the kid just didn't want to play at MU, dealing with his father's shadow was too much.
He could not play for MU, not allowed to transfer to another Big East school
Verdell Jones, Nick Williams, Maurice Creek and Rivers. All guards and in two years watch for the arguments because of playing time.
Quote from: nyg on May 10, 2008, 11:30:28 AM
Verdell Jones, Nick Williams, Maurice Creek and Rivers. All guards and in two years watch for the arguments because of playing time.
not with crean's new 5 guard lineup they won't.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 10, 2008, 11:26:10 AM
He could not play for MU, not allowed to transfer to another Big East school
I know that. I'm talking about the people that blasted Crean during Rivers high school recruitment for not getting a kid when his dad went to MU. They talked non stop about how Rivers would have gone here if it weren't for Crean. Turns out the exact opposite is true.
Quote from: Pakuni on May 10, 2008, 11:12:44 AM
Nick Williams = Four stars, RSCI top 100
Maurice Creek = Four stars, Scout #76
He's been on the job for a month and already landed a couple of four-star, top 100 kids and is on the list of six of Scout's top 27 players the Class of 2009. He'll do just fine at Indiana and the notion that he won't is wishful thinking among the sour grapes crowd.
I've asked this before and I'll ask it again, when does an elite program stop being an elite program?
IU stinks next year, that is a given. Two years they are 6th ot 7th in the Big Ten, no tourney bid. Years 3 and 4 they are fifth in the big ten and a bubble team. So, four years from today Crean comes calling. Is IU an elite team anymore? Why? The guy will have four years and no tourney bid. He will be indistguishable from Iowa or Michigan. Creek, Jones and Williams are nice players, which is why they will get to fifth place in the big ten. But, look at the rest. He simply does not have the horses to compete and "throwing away" scholarships on Rivers and Copbianco is not going to get him their. We've seen this before, the late season commitments from Brandon Bell, Chartlon Christian and so on.
Quote from: Pakuni on May 10, 2008, 11:12:44 AM
Nick Williams = Four stars, RSCI top 100
Maurice Creek = Four stars, Scout #76
He's been on the job for a month and already landed a couple of four-star, top 100 kids and is on the list of six of Scout's top 27 players the Class of 2009. He'll do just fine at Indiana and the notion that he won't is wishful thinking among the sour grapes crowd.
Scout also says MU is on the list of
nine 4-star and 5-star (wilson) recruits for 2009. Buzz will do just fine and have us in the top five in a few years.
http://marquette.scout.com/a.z?s=415&p=9&cfg=bb&c=4&yr=2009
I'm buying your statement about IU as much as I'm buying the statement I wrote above.
The way I see it - barring top 3 finishes in the Big ten in his first 4 years - Crean's hire was to clean up the mess at Indiana.
Then if the IU fandom is still not pleased (i.e., a top 2 finish or early first round exits in the tourney), Crean's hard work was for nought: he'll get the shaft (and a "Thank You for cleaning up after Sampson") or...
He shafts them and leaves for MSU.
If I was a gambling man, I'll take the early bet on the latter.
I hope he continues to recruit players like Rivers. Better at IU than MU. TC recruits three star players and hopes to lucky. I think Rivers going to IU is one of the funniest things in the whole TC/Buzz mess.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 10, 2008, 11:54:58 AM
Scout also says MU is on the list of nine 4-star and 5-star (wilson) recruits for 2009. Buzz will do just fine and have us in the top five in a few years.
http://marquette.scout.com/a.z?s=415&p=9&cfg=bb&c=4&yr=2009
I'm buying your statement about IU as much as I'm buying the statement I wrote above.
You people are so funny. Crean picks up a shut down defender to come off the bench in 09 when he has no players and tons of availble PT. He's going to land top recruiting classes these next couple of years. He will make the ncaa in 09.
When does a program stop being an eliete program? Right now a top 10 recruit goes to purdue and you say 'how the hell did purdue get him?' if he goes to indiana you say 'figures, must be nice to recruit with a name.' And that's why he's there and that's why he's going to have a good team in two years and a better one in three.
Rawdog---Lot of truth in your comments. However, has IU really been elite the last ten years? I would say UW and MSU are more elite BT programs currently. Granted without the trophy case of IU.
I think TC will have difficult time landing top 10 players because he never has successfully recruiting them. That was my issue when people mentioned Majerus as MU coach. Rick recruits out of ease and I think TC does as well. TC recruits a dozen top 75-100 players and hopes he gets three. Then he hopes one of the three will end up being a top 40 player.
Seldom do coaches change their mindsets. TC has recruited 6-4" guards that are upper midlevel players. That is his style.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 10, 2008, 01:03:49 PM
Rawdog---Lot of truth in your comments. However, has IU really been elite the last ten years? I would say UW and MSU are more elite BT programs currently. Granted without the trophy case of IU.
Both Kentucky and UCLA went through some down times too, but they have bounced back pretty well. That is the case with programs like Indiana - you can fall, but the bounce back is a bit easier.
Quote from: jce on May 10, 2008, 01:14:46 PM
Both Kentucky and UCLA went through some down times too, but they have bounced back pretty well. That is the case with programs like Indiana - you can fall, but the bounce back is a bit easier.
Kentucky boucning back to get a 11th seed is hardly getting them back to elite status. Right now they are just another team in the SEC, interchangeble with LSU.
Quote from: RawdogDX on May 10, 2008, 12:53:32 PM
He will make the ncaa in 09.
the big ten sends 4 or 5 teams to the tourney. In 09 those five teams are (in order) MSU, Wisc., OSU, Ill, Purdue. Which one of these teams does IU beat? Answer none. IU loses in the second round of the NIT in 2009.
Kentucky is an elite program. IU is no Kentucky, even with Kentucky currently down. Kentucky looks for a new coach and it is major national news story. They interviewed Donovan after he just won 2nd championship. Sorry about IU wanting Bennett and then Crean does not scream out elite.
IU was elite for decades and can be elite again. What cracks me up is what defines elite. MU won 2nd most games in 70's and two FF that decade. Why is that an elite program? I think because we do not flaunt our past enough. MU was as close to ground zero in NCCA ball in 70's than any school except UCLA.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 10, 2008, 01:54:50 PM
Kentucky is an elite program. IU is no Kentucky, even with Kentucky currently down. Kentucky looks for a new coach and it is major national news story. They interviewed Donovan after he just won 2nd championship. Sorry about IU wanting Bennett and then Crean does not scream out elite.
So the definition of elite is down how profile you make your coaching search. And, by your example, Kentucky is elite because Donovan said no to them? I guess you think Florida is elite because Donovan stayed even though they did not make the NCAA last year.
I guess we need to define "elite" Elite are the schools that get at least on McDonald's AA every year. By my count their are only five such schools - UNC, Duke, UCLA and G-Town and Kansas. Behond them are 20 to 25 schools that are "high major" In that group are Kentucky, Florida, IU and MU.
I guess Indy gets one back as they lost ewing jr to Gtown.
Quote from: nyg on May 10, 2008, 11:30:28 AM
Verdell Jones, Nick Williams, Maurice Creek and Rivers. All guards and in two years watch for the arguments because of playing time.
Four, 6'4" guards in one week...TC is going with his system. He has already recruited over Nick Williams to build depth in the back court. These guys are all lower rated than who left IU, decommitted, quit or transferred. TC is doing it his way--but far from elite. Buzz's one commit (EW) is higher rated than any of these guys. But they are all
solid--which is what TC needs for the next two years.
BTW, nothing about JR taking a scholie. Preferred walk-on? Smart move by TC.
When we start talking about how great IU will be in a few years (after probation), think back to the last seconds of the G'town and Stanford games. Yes, he'll do OK because the Big Ten sucks. That's it.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 10, 2008, 11:54:58 AM
Scout also says MU is on the list of nine 4-star and 5-star (wilson) recruits for 2009. Buzz will do just fine and have us in the top five in a few years.
http://marquette.scout.com/a.z?s=415&p=9&cfg=bb&c=4&yr=2009
I'm buying your statement about IU as much as I'm buying the statement I wrote above.
What statement about IU? That Crean will do fine?
Ummm ... OK. Landing two top 100 guys in a matter of weeks, and a solid rotational player in Rivers (who we'd all be happy to have at MU) clearly portends disaster, as you guys think. Crean kept Marquette in the top 5 of the Big East with, by and large, lesser recruits, but you think he's going to struggle to get IU in the top half of the Big Televen?
Sure. Keep telling yourself that.
And you're seriously equating MU being on the list of a bunch of top 75-150 guys with IU being on the list of top 25-30 guys?
I only wish it was the same thing.
When letters of intent get signed next November, come back and tell me that Crean won't be able to keep IU competitive with Wisconsin.
Seems to me Crean orchestrated this transfer very well. ;D
I am not necessarily knocking Creans recruits. But you also have to add jordan Crawford to the mix who will be a sophomore. They are in fact solid. But lets be realistic of these 7 guards he now has in the fold including Roth and Dumes he has no one rated higher than a 3 star recruit using Scout, except for Creek. In addition to that he has the two forwards from Ohio committed that are both 3 stars as well. Again is that aterrible mass of talent..of course not but using the pure objectivity of the Scout rating system it in no way matches the talent that will be entering or is currently at OSU, WIS, Purdue, or Illinois or MSU. It simply does not...Additional rumors have Maurice sutton an undersized 3 star about to commit along with a 2 star point guard out of Bloomington. I am sorry but that would be 11 kids 9 of which will be there for the next 4 years. botom line is no top talnetand only a few schoolies left unless you force kids off the team.
It is in fact less talent than is on the Marqutte roster. Yes maybe it is deeper as they will have 2 and 3 star types at the 9, 10th etc spots. But they will only have 1 guard with the incoming hype of the 3 amigos and again that talent for Mu gets us 5th and 6th place type finishes in the BE.
My point is the talent is fine but it is no where near Big ten winning talent and quite honestly in 3-4-5 years Iu fans will be expecting Big ten titles and elite elite Ncaa finishes. With the 4 and 5 star packed recruiitng classes that OSU and MSU are amassing no way Iu mathes them talent wise in the next 3 or 4 years. Purdue, Wis, and Illinois are not getting the uber talent as OSu and MSu but they are going to be very good the next 3-4 years regardless. Crea appears to be putting together a team that will reflect his teams at MU and the question really is will that be good enough for IU fans in 3-4-5 years beacuse they expect to be back to the "promised land" then!
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 10, 2008, 11:07:19 AM
I completely agree with the post above (first one). Crean is NOT getting the type of kid to compete with MSU, OSU, Wisconsin or Ill. Next year they will be 11th in the big ten. In three years, they are looking at fifth. Rivers in not the kid to change this and Crean just used up another spot for the next three years.
I don't think IU fans had a fifth place big ten finish in 3 to 4 years as their idea when they hired Crean.
Hoe do you figure IU is fifth in three years. You have no clue whatsoever they type of players he will have then. You may be in for a rude awakening. Crean is going to get it done at IU.
If Rivers' son is transferring to IU, we'll soon have a very high profile alum who knows full well what a complete pretty boy our former coach is.
This can only be a good thing.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on May 10, 2008, 10:55:56 AM
per the Washinton Post.
Now it may just be me but I really think Crean is digging his grave already at IU. All one has to do is look at the recruitng classes that the top notch Big ten schools are signing. OSU, MSU and even illinois and Wisconsin are signing or have coming in a whole string of 4 and 5 star recruits.
Crean has gotten a bunch of kids to commit to the program but none of them have the type of talent that IU fans are going to expect or honestly need to beat their foes.
Rivers, for example, is a 3 star kid out of HS and we have seen that while he is a decent player and a very solid defender he is not going to lead them anywhere. Not to mention he will take a scholarship for a year when they need one and will be with the program for 3 years. He does not match the abilties of the kid's talent on the teams IU is trying to catch. Another example of that is Capobianco, a 3 star kid that did not exactly have a long line of top programs after him. Nick Williams and Jones will be solid players in time but again are 3 star type players when their peers are signing 4 and 5 star players. Creek is more highly rated than the others but there appaers to be no difference makers in his recruits to this point. The only top notch Big Ten team that gets away with recruitng like that is Wisconsin becuase of their system and becuase as much as I dislike him Bo is an outstanding coach. It appears to me that his incoming talent that he will be saddled with for the next 4-5 years is no better than a 4th or 5th place finsih in the BIg Ten. Very similar to his success at MU. The big difference is while fans at Mu may be happy or content with 4th, 5th, 6th place BE finishes. IU fans will be more than restless with 4th or 5th palce finishes in the Big Ten come years 4 and 5 in Bloomington. Crean needs a couple difference makers real soon or his lot will be cast. It also appears he will have a guard only lineup in Bloomington and then the Iu fans will get to hear how the guards need to rebound better. It also appears that for the first time in my life I will actually root for Wisconsin even if it is only one or two times a year.
Have you seen the 4 and 5 star recruits he's already in on....he's going to load up. He'll struggle for two years and then they will explode on the scene. If he gets even 15% of those 4 and 5 star recruits he's got it made
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 10, 2008, 07:18:08 PM
Have you seen the 4 and 5 star recruits he's already in on....he's going to load up. He'll struggle for two years and then they will explode on the scene. If he gets even 15% of those 4 and 5 star recruits he's got it made
Chico, tell me why you think that IU will be passing OSU, MSU and Wisc in three years? These teams are highly ranked NOW and getting 5-star recruits to re-load NOW. What are they doing wrong? What is Tommy going to do better? My answer, he's not passing them. He going to peak at 3rd or 4th in the big ten over the next five years.
Remember before the scandal hit, Sampson had IU #8 in the nation and hoosier nation was complaining about "what's wrong with the team?" To be blunt, IU fans remind me of MU fans in the early 1980s. IU is no longer what it thinks it is. Like MU fans had to come to grips with Al leaving, IU fans have to understand that Knight is no longer walking their campus. Their day has come and gone. (Note, Duke is next up when Cocah K leaves).
They will settle into being a nice consistent top 25 team in the upper half of the big ten. In other words, it will settle into what MU has been the last three years and what it will be next year. And when this happens, it won't cut it.
Quote from: 79Warrior on May 10, 2008, 07:13:48 PM
Hoe do you figure IU is fifth in three years. You have no clue whatsoever they type of players he will have then. You may be in for a rude awakening. Crean is going to get it done at IU.
+1
Yes he will....an awful lot of people here are thinking with their hurt egos and not their brain. Crean will definitely get it done at IU, too many kids are already falling over themselves to play for him and that includes some blue chippers coming up in classes ahead.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 10, 2008, 07:29:49 PM
Chico, tell me why you think that IU will be passing OSU, MSU and Wisc in three years? These teams are highly ranked NOW and getting 5-star recruits to re-load NOW. What are they doing wrong? What is Tommy going to do better? My answer, he's not passing them. He going to peak at 3rd or 4th in the big ten over the next five years.
Remember before the scandal hit, Sampson had IU #8 in the nation and hoosier nation was complaining about "what's wrong with the team?" To be blunt, IU fans remind me of MU fans in the early 1980s. IU is no longer what it thinks it is. Like MU fans had to come to grips with Al leaving, IU fans have to understand that Knight is no longer walking their campus. Their day has come and gone. (Note, Duke is next up when Cocah K leaves).
They will settle into being a nice consistent top 25 team in the upper half of the big ten. In other words, it will settle into what MU has been the last three years and what it will be next year. And when this happens, it won't cut it.
Where did I say they were going to win the Big Ten title or anything like that? I think they will be one of the top 4 or 5 teams consistently in the Big Ten and every few years will contend. Knight was very similar.
IU fans want them to compete and do it "right" and that's what this hire is all about.
OSU, MSU and UW-madison will continue to do well also but I am of the belief the Big Ten is actually going to be a real league for the first time in about 5 or 6 years after IU's first season. Minny is coming on, Purdue is good, MSU, OSU, UW-madison and Illinois has a terrific two classes coming up. It will be tough to win championships there, but still easier then in the Big East.
As for MU and IU fans, there is no comparison. IU fans demand more. IU isn't what they used to be, but they're a lot closer to getting there then MU is, and that's just a fact of life.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 10, 2008, 07:43:55 PM
+1
Yes he will....an awful lot of people here are thinking with their hurt egos and not their brain. Crean will definitely get it done at IU, too many kids are already falling over themselves to play for him and that includes some blue chippers coming up in classes ahead.
Let me try it this way .....
Crean coached in the toughest conference in the country. His team had one of the best practice facilities around. They were regualrly featured on national TV and they palyed in a NBA arena. He had everything to become the "cold weather Duke". So how many 5-star recruits did he land in his nine years? Answer zero.
Now he moves to a program in shambles and the guy who could never land a 5-star recruit is now the second coming of coach K. All of a sudden he's recruting choices are only going to be the McDonald's all-star game?
The problem was not Marquette. The problem was Crean.
Contrast him with Huggins. Cincy was nothing before he got their. He landed tons of 5-star recruits. He took them to the final four and had them ranked #1. He goes to K-State and between heart attacks he gets the best college basketball player in the land to comit.
He goes to WV and between DWIs and falling on his face, he goes to the sweet sixteen.
Huggins can coach. Huggins can recruit. It does't matter to Huggins if its Cincy, K-State or WV, he just gets the job done.
Crean has not shown this ability. People are projecting he will do things he has never shown ability to do.
Crean's glass ceiling at MU was caused by Crean, not MU. That glass ceiling is now at IU.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 10, 2008, 07:56:55 PM
Let me try it this way .....
Crean coached in the toughest conference in the country. His team had one of the best practice facilities around. They were regualrly featured on national TV and they palyed in a NBA arena. He had everything to become the "cold weather Duke". So how many 5-star recruits did he land in his nine years? Answer zero.
Now he moves to a program in shambles and the guy who could never land a 5-star recruit is now the second coming of coach K. All of a sudden he's recruting choices are only going to be the McDonald's all-star game?
The problem was not Marquette. The problem was Crean.
Contrast him with Huggins. Cincy was nothing before he got their. He landed tons of 5-star recruits. He took them to the final four and had them ranked #1. He goes to K-State and between heart attacks he gets the best college basketball player in the land to comit.
He goes to WV and between SWIs and falling on his face, he goes to the sweet sixteen.
Huggins can coach. Huggins can recruit. It does't matter to Huggins if its Cincy, K-State or WV, he just gets the job done.
Crean has not shown this ability. People are projecting he will do things he has never shown ability to do.
Crean's glass ceiling at MU was caused by Crean, not MU. That glass ceiling is now at IU.
Well, here are few counterpoints.
IU is about to build a 160 million arena. I know many of you guys fall over yourselves about playing in a NBA arena, but quite frankly I don't. Quick, name all those top 25 teams that play in a NBA arena.........
IU is opening up a brand new practice facility this year.
Where did I say he was the second coming of coach K...you keep putting words into people's mouths.
Crean is a flawed coach, but he's also not as flawed as you make him out to be. Last I checked he was 3rd in wins in the Big East since he got there...he either recruited well or coached well, that doesn't happen by accident.
Those 5 star players he couldn't get to MU he will get some to IU. First, it's IU. Second, the entire state of players will lean largely to IU. They are raised to be Hoosiers for the most part, do not underestimate that. It's a powerful draw that you are taking much to lightly.
If you think MU can go higher, well then let's hope you're right and Buzz is the guy. I'd argue IU in most years has a higher upside on average, not for the next 1 to 2 years, but on average.
Now....Cincy was nothing before Huggins...really....you mean like the three straight national title games they went to with some guy named Oscar Robertson? Junker as the head coach? Cincy has plenty of history and a winning tradition that is very similar to ours. They won two national titles, we've won one. They've been to 24 NCAA tournaments, we've been to 26. They have 6 Final Four appearances (5 before Huggins), we have 3.
etc, etc
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 10, 2008, 07:48:19 PM
Where did I say they were going to win the Big Ten title or anything like that? I think they will be one of the top 4 or 5 teams consistently in the Big Ten and every few years will contend.
Let me be clear here. I think they are going to do the same. That's because you pretty much described what MU has been the last several years. So, we agree that Crean will turn IU into MU.
But it was just this kind of performance that was not good enough to get everyone behind Davis or Sampson. So now what was unsatisifying is now suddenly satisfying? But you also say IU fans are not lowering their expectations.
If they think they are "just another decent big ten bball team" then Crean will do well. If they still think they are among the select few elite teams in the country, he will disappoint.
All about expectations.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 10, 2008, 08:08:17 PM
Well, here are few counterpoints.
Quick, name all those top 25 teams that play in a NBA arena.........
Now....Cincy was nothing before Huggins...really....you mean like the three straight national title games they went to with some guy named Oscar Robertson? Junker as the head coach? Cincy has plenty of history and a winning tradition that is very similar to ours. They won two national titles, we've won one. They've been to 24 NCAA tournaments, we've been to 26. They have 6 Final Four appearances (5 before Huggins), we have 3.
NBA Arenas - 1 MU. But that's the point. How many teams that are rated in the top 25 have a campus that is 6 or 7 blocks from an NBA arena? Answer 1, MU. MU has a unique feature that no other school can claim. Problem is the bucks suck. If they were actually good, it would mean more.
On Cincy, I hear what your saying but by that logic then Loyola Chicago, U of San Fran, Princeton and Texas El Paso (Western) are also semi-destination jobs for the same reasons.
Crean will do fine at IU - I really don't care. How will WE do? That's what I care about.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 10, 2008, 07:56:55 PM
Let me try it this way .....
Crean coached in the toughest conference in the country. His team had one of the best practice facilities around. They were regualrly featured on national TV and they palyed in a NBA arena. He had everything to become the "cold weather Duke". So how many 5-star recruits did he land in his nine years? Answer zero.
Now he moves to a program in shambles and the guy who could never land a 5-star recruit is now the second coming of coach K. All of a sudden he's recruting choices are only going to be the McDonald's all-star game?
The problem was not Marquette. The problem was Crean.
Sometimes I wonder if people here ever watched hoops before...not to quote TC but it's Indy-Fricking-Ana...it's a top 5 gig. And while you'll argue that the kids don't know that, their coaches, AAU pimps & Shoes Nazi's do. A 16 year old opens his mail, tells his AAU pimp about IU and that AAU pimp goes to jello and blubblers on about Jon McGlocklin, Kent Benson, Isaiah, Keith Smart, Cal Cheaney, Coverdale etc etc. Every adult in their little circle will say "Holy crap..IU!, Wow that's hot."
TC is going to get some sick recruits...in fact I think we're going to see the first 16 seed beat a 1 seed once TC gets IU rolling.
QuoteRemember before the scandal hit, Sampson had IU #8 in the nation and hoosier nation was complaining about "what's wrong with the team?" To be blunt, IU fans remind me of MU fans in the early 1980s. IU is no longer what it thinks it is. Like MU fans had to come to grips with Al leaving, IU fans have to understand that Knight is no longer walking their campus. Their day has come and gone.
I do not know what part of the country you live in but you could not be more wrong about IU and its fans. I am a strong supporter of Marquette, but I am also a realist. I was raised in Indiana, and I live in Indiana. I have a degree from Marquette and two from Indiana University, so I feel very comfortable in speaking about what has gone and is going on in Bloomington.
No one complained about IU being ranked at #8. The fans were extremely excited, until Sampson's dark side was exposed. Then the fan base united in realizing he must go. Cheating is completely unacceptable at IU.
Further, IU fans realize Knight is not coming back -- granted it took a while for many to come to grips with that reality -- but the fan base is now more united behind the program than it has been for a decade or so. As I have said before, I credit the Sampson mess with causing that to happen. IU fans stopped squabbling over Knight and Davis and Alford, etc. Instead they realized that the very fiber of the program had been negatively impacted, and something had to be done to fix that.
Crean will get the job done. The media is already eating out of his hand, and the recruits will follow. Simple fact -- recruiting at Indiana is easier than recruiting at Marquette. It is amazing how there has been virtually no news from Purdue since Crean arrived; it has all been IU.
For a guy from Cali, ;D Chico's really understands the mindset and mentality of Indiana and its fans. [I know he went to school there after Marquette, and it is clear he paid attention to what IU basketball means in Indiana and beyond.] And he is absolutely right when he says there is no comparison between MU and IU fans.
Generally speaking, except for kids from the region [Gary/Hammond] and farm kids, most players in Indiana dream of wearing the cream and crimson, including the candy-striped warm-ups!!!
IU is exactly what it thinks it is and to suggest its day has come and gone is wrong.
Who really cares what Tom Crean will do? I think he will do at least as good as he was at Marquette and maybe better since it is a big state school and he can play off of the Indiana tradition like he did here with McGuire. I think the real question is how will we do? Are we getting the players to keep us competitive in the top tier of the Big East?
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 10, 2008, 08:22:00 PM
NBA Arenas - 1 MU. But that's the point. How many teams that are rated in the top 25 have a campus that is 6 or 7 blocks from an NBA arena? Answer 1, MU. MU has a unique feature that no other school can claim. Problem is the bucks suck. If they were actually good, it would mean more.
On Cincy, I hear what your saying but by that logic then Loyola Chicago, U of San Fran, Princeton and Texas El Paso (Western) are also semi-destination jobs for the same reasons.
Actually USC had a pro NBA arena on their campus for 2 decades and it did them no good whatsoever.
I just don't see what the draw is for an NBA arena....I've been to probably 50 or 60 arenas in this country and I'd take a college arena over a NBA arena for a college basketball game 100 times out of 100 if it's done right. There's just something about the atmosphere, and I fully acknowledge the BC can get really rocking....so can many a college arena.
How is he going to turn IU into MU when IU is completely in the toilet right now? That's part of the reason he took the job, it's never going to be easier then this...never. He has a long honeymoon and the state is excited about IU's basketball coach for the first time in a long time....even though he's a prick, they don't care. Those people LIVE for "my way or the highway". That's Knight personified, that's exactly what they want. They want a prick, but "THEIR PRICK". A PRICK of THEIR OWN.
On Cincy, I don't understand your point at all.....your comment that they were nothing before Huggins was just wrong. They were something before Huggins, something during Huggins and now they're trying to become something after Huggins.
Now, let's hope you're right about MU and Buzz.
scratching my head about this nba arena thing-
I suppose the question ought to be how many perennial top 25's teams are located in an nba city? or vice versa? you might get more of a match.. or not... by taking that into consideration.
No NBA around- it's early so correct the list-:
Duke
UNC
MSU
KY
UConn
UL
UW
Ill.
Kansas
I mean, besides potential matches like Philly/Nova, or NYC/St Johns, or Meadowlands/new equiv./Seton Hall or RU, UCLA?
it seems like nba and ncaa hoops don't coexist well in most instances.
so the how many ncaa teams play in nba arena stuff is jaded at best.
imo
Quote from: Coach Norman Dale on May 11, 2008, 12:21:11 AM
IU is exactly what it thinks it is and to suggest its day has come and gone is wrong.
Coach,
I think we are saying the same thing but I think we are differing on whether that will be sucessful.
In five years, what will Indiana be? I have repeatedly said a top 25 team in the top half of the big ten. I also noted that is exactly what MU is - a top 25 team in the top half of the big east.
The problem is too many big ten schools have too big a lead over IU. MSU has Izzo, enough said. OSU has Motta and he has TWO McDonald's AA coming in next year (Hartman and Mullens). Let's stop right their. These teams are not going downhill (unless Izzo leaves for the NBA) and you should expect them to stay at this level. So, right now IU is playing for third place. Will that make Hoosier nation happy?
The next level is Wisconsin who wins the big ten and Ryan has his next two classes filled out. He probably standing in the way as well. Illinois is at least as good.
My point is not what Crean can do, rather what the rest of the big ten is doing. IU is playing for 3rd to 5th in a few years. The Maurice Suttons, Creeks, Jones, Rivers, Copbianco's are 3rd to 5th talent in the big ten. So, unless he gets 3 or 4 McDonald's AA on his roster over the next five years, he's not breaking through. I know you say he will get the AA's. If and when he signs kids of this cailber, I will agree with you.
But let me focus on this .... in 2012/2013 assume IU has its best season in the last five, 25 wins, finishes tied for 3rd in the big ten, rated #18 and loses in the second round of the tourney (in other words, pretty much what MU did this year). What will the mood of Hoosier nation be? I say "restless and quietly complaining". Again, I'm asking about what do IU fans expect in five years, not what will Crean deliver? I think they expect an "it's Indiana" kind of program. Top 5 pre-seaon regularly because they regularly get top five recruting classes. That means only 4- and 5-start recruits. Am I wrong?
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 10, 2008, 08:22:00 PM
NBA Arenas - 1 MU. But that's the point. How many teams that are rated in the top 25 have a campus that is 6 or 7 blocks from an NBA arena? Answer 1, MU. MU has a unique feature that no other school can claim. Problem is the bucks suck. If they were actually good, it would mean more.
Who cares? I don't think NBA arenas make for a good college basketball atmosphere anyway. For instance, I wish that MU had a on-campus arena of about 10,000 rather than playing in the BC. The BC can really rock, but oftentimes it just seems so sterile.
Quote from: jce on May 11, 2008, 07:55:16 AM
Who cares? I don't think NBA arenas make for a good college basketball atmosphere anyway. For instance, I wish that MU had a on-campus arena of about 10,000 rather than playing in the BC. The BC can really rock, but oftentimes it just seems so sterile.
Then move the games back across the street to the Mecca (11,052). I assume it is still there.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 11, 2008, 08:04:09 AM
Then move the games back across the street to the Mecca (11,052). I assume it is still there.
I for one always thought the atmosphere was better there than the BC. I wouldn't mind that either.
Quote from: jce on May 11, 2008, 07:55:16 AM
Who cares? I don't think NBA arenas make for a good college basketball atmosphere anyway. For instance, I wish that MU had a on-campus arena of about 10,000 rather than playing in the BC. The BC can really rock, but oftentimes it just seems so sterile.
Hmmm...the BE teams get pretty excited to play in the Garden for the BET. SJU has a long storied b-ball history (until their recent scandals). Georgetown has done pretty well playing in an NBA arena all these years. Playing in an NBA arena--where visiting teams practice at The Al--is/can be huge recruiting advantage for MU in a city that isn't as attractive to national recruits. Not to mention the economics of filling all those seats as Milwaukee has been loyal --and the BC's proximity to campus.
The MECCA is a more exciting venue for college bball, though,
Pakuni---You are probably right that TC can be competitive with UW in BT. Unfortunately the type of players he recruited at MU were not competitive with UW. So, do you believe that change of address will make TC more competitive or is UW going to take nose dive?
TC was not competitive with UW the last eight years. I would take UW success over ours during that period. TC arguably had two his top three teams the last two years and UW had greater success or at worst equal. UW was ranked #1 two seasons ago, what was TC's highest ranking. What was his highest seed in NCAA?
AnotherMU84 is dead on correct.... Chicos and norman and others keep saying Crean is going to sign these big time talented 5 star recruits to compete with the top teams in the Big ten. well if that is the case he better start quickly. The simple fact is Crean now has 10 scholarships tied up for the next 2 years, he has at least 8 scholarships tied up for the next 4 and possibly nine if sutton commits and by the latest articles he is close. additionally, he has 2 juniors already commited and another junior from bloomington that seems ready. so the bottom line is he has a curent list of commits that includes 1 4 star ranking. basically he is only going to have a total of 2-3 scholarships to give away over this summer and next. not saying he cannot or will not sign any 5 star guys , my point is if he wants to ahve 2-3 5 star guys on his roster that is all he better recruit or offer becuase he only has a couple left to give and becuase he kicked, off ran off, or whatever the entire sophomore and junior classes no scholarships are going to be freed up thru graduation. That is my point, he is in such need to fill a roster that it will be all freshman and sophomores and they are all 2 and 3 star kids. maybe Crean will run some of those guys oput of the program in the next couple of years to find room for some 5 star guys? i do not know. But for all these 5 star kids some say he will get he needs scolly's and this is all presuming the NCaa does not take any away.
Playing in NBA arena means something to these kids. I do not get it, but it really is an advantage. I have known every MU coach since Al do some extent and everyone of them has stated being an NBA city means something in recruiting. Over the years every MU player has been spottedwatching the Bucks or better yet playing with them in the summer.
The Al and BC are two major recruiting advantages. I'll say again that if MU, and TC did, embraced our history we could proudly state MU is borderline elite. Our history is in the top 20 in the country over the past four decades. We need to stress this to a greater degree.
Quote from: TVDirector on May 11, 2008, 07:08:53 AM
scratching my head about this nba arena thing-
I suppose the question ought to be how many perennial top 25's teams are located in an nba city? or vice versa? you might get more of a match.. or not... by taking that into consideration.
No NBA around- it's early so correct the list-:
Duke
UNC
MSU
KY
UConn
UL
UW
Ill.
Kansas
I mean, besides potential matches like Philly/Nova, or NYC/St Johns, or Meadowlands/new equiv./Seton Hall or RU, UCLA?
it seems like nba and ncaa hoops don't coexist well in most instances.
so the how many ncaa teams play in nba arena stuff is jaded at best.
imo
That is correct, there aren't a ton and somehow those teams excel without an NBA arena. I guess I would position it this way....would you like to have a 15,000 seat arena that is home of MARQUETTE or be a renter of a NBA arena where you are an equal tenant with an IHL hockey team and used to be an equal tenant with an indoor soccer team?
Look, I like the Bradley Center...it's very nice. It serves MU well, but I just don't get all the love for it. Does it really help us? I know some folks think that being in the same city with the Bucks is advantageous because of the players and access. I suppose it might be, but has that hurt Kentucky or Wake Forest, or UNC, or Duke or Gonzaga or any number of other teams from putting players in the NBA since they don't have that "access'? Of course not.
As for schools that share teams in the same city, of course it will be limited. There are only 30 some teams in the NBA. A lot more pedestrian teams then ones that are doing well. Quite frankly, I'd love to see the Bucks leave Milwaukee but that's another story that I'm sure is not shared by 99.99% of Milwaukeans.
Going off memory
UCLA / USC / Loyola Marymount
Utah
Minnesota
Washington
Portland State
Stanford / Cal / USF
Rice / Houston
TCU / SMU
Temple / Villanova / Drexel / Penn / St. Joe's
St. John's
Seton Hall
Georgetown
Miami
Tulane / New Orleans
DePaul / UIC / Northwestern
Arizona State
UT-San Antonio
Detroit-Mercy
IUPUI
Charlotte
Harvard / Boston College / Boston U.
Sacramento State
Denver
Memphis
Cleveland State
Georgia Tech
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on May 11, 2008, 10:09:50 AM
AnotherMU84 is dead on correct.... Chicos and norman and others keep saying Crean is going to sign these big time talented 5 star recruits to compete with the top teams in the Big ten. well if that is the case he better start quickly. The simple fact is Crean now has 10 scholarships tied up for the next 2 years, he has at least 8 scholarships tied up for the next 4 and possibly nine if sutton commits and by the latest articles he is close. additionally, he has 2 juniors already commited and another junior from bloomington that seems ready. so the bottom line is he has a curent list of commits that includes 1 4 star ranking. basically he is only going to have a total of 2-3 scholarships to give away over this summer and next. not saying he cannot or will not sign any 5 star guys , my point is if he wants to ahve 2-3 5 star guys on his roster that is all he better recruit or offer becuase he only has a couple left to give and becuase he kicked, off ran off, or whatever the entire sophomore and junior classes no scholarships are going to be freed up thru graduation. That is my point, he is in such need to fill a roster that it will be all freshman and sophomores and they are all 2 and 3 star kids. maybe Crean will run some of those guys oput of the program in the next couple of years to find room for some 5 star guys? i do not know. But for all these 5 star kids some say he will get he needs scolly's and this is all presuming the NCaa does not take any away.
Scholarships are one year and renewable each year....so yes, I expect some will not cut it, some will choose to leave on their own because they don't like his regimented ways and he will fill their slot with someone better. I also expect he will struggle in year 1 and 2 and then start landing them in year 3 and beyond. Let's mark this post and check back in a few years and see how successful IU is and how successful MU is at that point. Hopefully both programs are doing well.
Chico's---Perfect world MU would be playing in 15,000 seat joint with MU on the wall. I would not lose one second of sleep if the Bucks folded or moved tonight. But, that does not take away the perception of the NBA facility to 17 year old kids. Obviously Kansas and Duke have facilities with their name on it and blows away the NBA theory. Unfortunately we are not Kansas or Duke today. I loved my experience visiting Cameron and a ton of other on campus facilities. I actually LOVE Assembly Hall, but prior to a month ago IU was my 2nd favorite team.
Let me turn the argument around. MU is a small private uran school. It does not have $150 million to build it's own 18,000 seat arena. HOWEVER, it does have one just a FEW BLOCKS OFF CAMPUS (which cannot be said of most of the other schools Chicos listed). So, it can still get a healthy number of students to walk to the games. And for the impressible 17/18 year old recruit, it is awfully exciting the think about playing in an NBA arena.
Consider the alternative, busing kids across town to a stadium or stuck with 6,000 to 8,000 seat oversized AL.
Finally, when MU plays all those December games against lesser talent and the kids are on break, they bearely draw 11,000. Why not plays those games in the MECCA? It would make for an interesting diversion.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 11, 2008, 07:05:00 PM
Let me turn the argument around. MU is a small private uran school. It does not have $150 million to build it's own 18,000 seat arena. HOWEVER, it does have one just a FEW BLOCKS OFF CAMPUS (which cannot be said of most of the other schools Chicos listed). So, it can still get a healthy number of students to walk to the games. And for the impressible 17/18 year old recruit, it is awfully exciting the think about playing in an NBA arena.
Consider the alternative, busing kids across town to a stadium or stuck with 6,000 to 8,000 seat oversized AL.
Finally, when MU plays all those December games against lesser talent and the kids are on break, they bearely draw 11,000. Why not plays those games in the MECCA? It would make for an interesting diversion.
MU is incredibly fortunate to have the BC as close to campus as it is....incredibly fortunate. As I said, it's a nice building, nice arena, but I just don't think it is as advantageous as people make it out to be.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 11, 2008, 07:05:00 PM
Finally, when MU plays all those December games against lesser talent and the kids are on break, they bearely draw 11,000. Why not plays those games in the MECCA? It would make for an interesting diversion.
They have a contract with the Bradley Center that they will only play in that building. My thought was to have the first game of the year (preseason) in the AL considering on 6-8 thousand show up to the game. That would be an awesome way to start off the year.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 11, 2008, 07:05:00 PM
Let me turn the argument around. MU is a small private uran school. It does not have $150 million to build it's own 18,000 seat arena. HOWEVER, it does have one just a FEW BLOCKS OFF CAMPUS (which cannot be said of most of the other schools Chicos listed). So, it can still get a healthy number of students to walk to the games. And for the impressible 17/18 year old recruit, it is awfully exciting the think about playing in an NBA arena.
Consider the alternative, busing kids across town to a stadium or stuck with 6,000 to 8,000 seat oversized AL.
Finally, when MU plays all those December games against lesser talent and the kids are on break, they bearely draw 11,000. Why not plays those games in the MECCA? It would make for an interesting diversion.
When was the last time you were in the MECCA? Its an above ground dump befitting a team the caliper of UWM and nothing more. MU belongs in the BC.
while a little OT, I want to toss my 2 cents in; when the BC was built, and the arena sat 'empty', I advocated MU buying it. We could have renamed it MU Arena, rented it out on non-game nights(UWM, circus, hockey, concerts, etc), and saved the enormous rent we currently pay to play in the BC. While we would have lost 6,000 seats for 3 or 4 games a season, we also would have had a much more exciting atmosphere the rest of the year. Playing in the BC is like playing in somebody's basement- grey, dull, boring, sound absorbing, too-brightly-lit, etc. The arena always had a 'stage' feel. All the lights dimmed and the court lights came up. Much more exciting when the crowd was rocking. Sigh..., what could have been...
MU needs to play in 18K facility to raise revenue. We do not play eight bums a year because we want to, we play them for the money. While I hate we play these teams I understand the amount of revenue that is created. If MU played at MECCA or smaller facility it would cost the school way too much money.
AUGOMAN--Back in the day MECCA rocked. When they went to using the side/stage lighting the place looked unreal. I loved the contrast of the bright lights on the court and darkness of the stands. No doubt MECCA was very cool.
The Mecca/Arena talk is, and has always been, ridiculous.
From a financial standpoint, it would be disastrous. MU averaged 15,345 per game in 2007. So moving to the Arena would cost MU at least 3,000 tickets sold per game. Even at, say, $18 per seat, that's more than $1 million in lost revenue. and that's not even accounting for whatever revenue, no matter how small, MU generates from merchandise and concession sales at the Bradley Center.
Who thinks this is a good idea? Who thinks MU athletics would be better off with less money?
And what does Marquette say to those 3,000+ other fans/future contributors who now are squeezed out from attending games? Sorry, you can't enjoy the game, but the lucky ones who have tickets feel better about their college basketball experience?
Give me a break.
This talk was nonsense 7-8 years ago and it's even more nonsensical today.
Quote from: augoman on May 11, 2008, 09:42:34 PM
while a little OT, I want to toss my 2 cents in; when the BC was built, and the arena sat 'empty', I advocated MU buying it.
MU was offered the Arena back then at a steal of a price, and thankfully had the foresight to turn it down.
Quote from: Pakuni on May 12, 2008, 10:35:51 AM
The Mecca/Arena talk is, and has always been, ridiculous.
From a financial standpoint, it would be disastrous. MU averaged 15,345 per game in 2007. So moving to the Arena would cost MU at least 3,000 tickets sold per game. Even at, say, $18 per seat, that's more than $1 million in lost revenue. and that's not even accounting for whatever revenue, no matter how small, MU generates from merchandise and concession sales at the Bradley Center.
Who thinks this is a good idea? Who thinks MU athletics would be better off with less money?
And what does Marquette say to those 3,000+ other fans/future contributors who now are squeezed out from attending games? Sorry, you can't enjoy the game, but the lucky ones who have tickets feel better about their college basketball experience?
Give me a break.
This talk was nonsense 7-8 years ago and it's even more nonsensical today.
MU makes $0.00 on concessions at the Bradley Center. Part of the analysis is that the 3000 extra people, many were not buying tickets, at least for the dog games. Mostly giveaways and youth donations, etc.
Let's just hope attendance stays up because if it drops considerably, the analysis takes on a different perspective.
Marquette actually played a non-conference game against Ark-Pine Bluff at the Arena back in 2001, during the holiday break. Maybe it was the fact that it wasn't our actual home court, or the lack of the student section (tickets were neither included in the student ticket package nor offered to students as I recall, we ended up picking up 2 from a scalper for $30...), but the only games I can remember at the Bradley Center that felt as lackluster were the sparsely-attended NIT games a few years later. I can't imagine going back there for every game.
We already know that Crean cannot leave a scholarship open, which has not worked well for him. We also know that he will hand out more scholarships than he has. I do not know if he will get 5 star recruits, but I believe he will hand out 5 scholarships when he has only three available. Which means two players of lesser caliber will transfer out. I also believe Indiana might go the way of Michigan. Michigan used to be the big program in Michigan. Now they are not even close to Michigan St. I do not think Indiana is a lock to be a super power again. Even Bobby knight did not do super there his last few years.