Rivers to Indiana

[4everwarriors]

Seems to me Crean orchestrated this transfer very well. 

[MR.HAYWARD]

I am not necessarily knocking Creans recruits.  But you also have to add jordan Crawford to the mix who will be a sophomore.  They are in fact solid.  But lets be realistic of these 7 guards he now has in the fold including Roth and Dumes he has no one rated higher than a 3 star recruit using Scout, except for Creek.  In addition to that he has the two forwards from Ohio committed that are both 3 stars as well.  Again is that  aterrible mass of talent..of course not but using the pure objectivity of the Scout rating system it in no way matches the talent that will be entering or is currently at OSU, WIS, Purdue, or Illinois or MSU.  It simply does not...Additional rumors have Maurice sutton an undersized 3 star about to commit along with a 2 star point guard out of Bloomington.  I am sorry but that would be 11 kids 9 of which will be there for the next 4 years.  botom line is no top talnetand only a few schoolies left unless you force kids off the team.

It is in fact less talent than is on the Marqutte roster.  Yes maybe it is deeper as they will have 2 and 3 star types at the 9, 10th etc spots.  But they will only have 1 guard with the incoming hype of the 3 amigos and again that talent for Mu gets us 5th and 6th place type finishes in the BE.  
My point is the talent is fine but it is no where near Big ten winning talent and quite honestly in 3-4-5 years Iu fans will be expecting Big ten titles and elite elite Ncaa finishes.  With the 4 and 5 star packed recruiitng classes that OSU and MSU are amassing no way Iu mathes them talent wise in the next 3 or 4 years.  Purdue, Wis, and Illinois are not getting the uber talent as OSu and MSu but they are going to be very good the next 3-4 years regardless.  Crea appears to be putting together a team that will reflect his teams at MU and the question really is will that be good enough for IU fans in 3-4-5 years beacuse they expect to be back to the "promised land" then!  

[79Warrior]

I completely agree with the post above (first one).  Crean is NOT getting the type of kid to compete with MSU, OSU, Wisconsin or Ill.  Next year they will be 11th in the big ten.  In three years, they are looking at fifth.  Rivers in not the kid to change this and Crean just used up another spot for the next three years.

I don't think IU fans had a fifth place big ten finish in 3 to 4 years as their idea when they hired Crean.

Hoe do you figure IU is fifth in three years. You have no clue whatsoever they type of players he will have then.  You may be in for a rude awakening. Crean is going to get it done at IU.

[HarveysWallbangers]

If Rivers' son is transferring to IU, we'll soon have a very high profile alum who knows full well what a complete pretty boy our former coach is.

This can only be a good thing.

[ChicosBailBonds]

per the Washinton Post.

Now it may just be me but I really think Crean is digging his grave already at IU.  All one has to do is look at the recruitng classes that the top notch Big ten schools are signing.  OSU, MSU and even illinois and Wisconsin are signing or have coming in a whole string of 4 and 5 star recruits. 
Crean has gotten a bunch of kids to commit to the program but none of them have the type of talent that IU fans are going to expect or honestly need to beat their foes. 
Rivers, for example, is a 3 star kid out of HS and we have seen that while he is a decent player and a very solid defender he is not going to lead them anywhere.  Not to mention he will take a scholarship for a year when they need one and will be with the program for 3 years.  He does not match the abilties of the kid's talent on the teams IU is trying to catch.  Another example of that is Capobianco, a 3 star kid that did not exactly have a long line of top programs after him.  Nick Williams and Jones will be solid players in time but again are 3 star type players when their peers are signing 4 and 5 star players.  Creek is more highly rated than the others but there appaers to be no difference makers in his recruits to this point.  The only top notch Big Ten team that gets away with recruitng like that is Wisconsin becuase of their system and becuase as much as I dislike him Bo is an outstanding coach.   It appears to me that his incoming talent that he will be saddled with for the next 4-5 years is no better than a 4th or 5th place finsih in the BIg Ten.  Very similar to his success at MU.  The big difference is while fans at Mu may be happy or content with 4th, 5th, 6th place BE finishes.  IU fans will be more than restless with 4th or 5th palce finishes in the Big Ten come years 4 and 5 in Bloomington.  Crean needs a couple difference makers real soon or his lot will be cast.  It also appears he will have a guard only lineup in Bloomington and then the Iu fans will get to hear how the guards need to rebound better.  It also appears that for the first time in my life I will actually root for Wisconsin even if it is only one or two times a year.   

Have you seen the 4 and 5 star recruits he's already in on....he's going to load up.  He'll struggle for two years and then they will explode on the scene.  If he gets even 15% of those 4 and 5 star recruits he's got it made

[Tugg Speedman]

Have you seen the 4 and 5 star recruits he's already in on....he's going to load up.  He'll struggle for two years and then they will explode on the scene.  If he gets even 15% of those 4 and 5 star recruits he's got it made

Chico, tell me why you think that IU will be passing OSU, MSU and Wisc in three years?  These teams are highly ranked NOW and getting 5-star recruits to re-load NOW.  What are they doing wrong?  What is Tommy going to do better?  My answer, he's not passing them.  He going to peak at 3rd or 4th in the big ten over the next five years.

Remember before the scandal hit, Sampson had IU #8 in the nation and hoosier nation was complaining about "what's wrong with the team?"  To be blunt, IU fans remind me of MU fans in the early 1980s.  IU is no longer what it thinks it is.  Like MU fans had to come to grips with Al leaving, IU fans have to understand that Knight is no longer walking their campus.  Their day has come and gone. (Note, Duke is next up when Cocah K leaves).

They will settle into being a nice consistent top 25 team in the upper half of the big ten.  In other words, it will settle into what MU has been the last three years and what it will be next year.  And when this happens, it won't cut it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Hoe do you figure IU is fifth in three years. You have no clue whatsoever they type of players he will have then.  You may be in for a rude awakening. Crean is going to get it done at IU.

+1

Yes he will....an awful lot of people here are thinking with their hurt egos and not their brain.  Crean will definitely get it done at IU, too many kids are already falling over themselves to play for him and that includes some blue chippers coming up in classes ahead.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chico, tell me why you think that IU will be passing OSU, MSU and Wisc in three years?  These teams are highly ranked NOW and getting 5-star recruits to re-load NOW.  What are they doing wrong?  What is Tommy going to do better?  My answer, he's not passing them.  He going to peak at 3rd or 4th in the big ten over the next five years.

Remember before the scandal hit, Sampson had IU #8 in the nation and hoosier nation was complaining about "what's wrong with the team?"  To be blunt, IU fans remind me of MU fans in the early 1980s.  IU is no longer what it thinks it is.  Like MU fans had to come to grips with Al leaving, IU fans have to understand that Knight is no longer walking their campus.  Their day has come and gone. (Note, Duke is next up when Cocah K leaves).

They will settle into being a nice consistent top 25 team in the upper half of the big ten.  In other words, it will settle into what MU has been the last three years and what it will be next year.  And when this happens, it won't cut it.

Where did I say they were going to win the Big Ten title or anything like that?  I think they will be one of the top 4 or 5 teams consistently in the Big Ten and every few years will contend.  Knight was very similar. 

IU fans want them to compete and do it "right" and that's what this hire is all about.   

OSU, MSU and UW-madison will continue to do well also but I am of the belief the Big Ten is actually going to be a real league for the first time in about 5 or 6 years after IU's first season.  Minny is coming on, Purdue is good, MSU, OSU, UW-madison and Illinois has a terrific two classes coming up.  It will be tough to win championships there, but still easier then in the Big East.

As for MU and IU fans, there is no comparison.  IU fans demand more.  IU isn't what they used to be, but they're a lot closer to getting there then MU is, and that's just a fact of life.

[Tugg Speedman]

+1

Yes he will....an awful lot of people here are thinking with their hurt egos and not their brain.  Crean will definitely get it done at IU, too many kids are already falling over themselves to play for him and that includes some blue chippers coming up in classes ahead.

Let me try it this way .....

Crean coached in the toughest conference in the country.  His team had one of the best practice facilities around.  They were regualrly featured on national TV and they palyed in a NBA arena.  He had everything to become the "cold weather Duke".  So how many 5-star recruits did he land in his nine years?  Answer zero.

Now he moves to a program in shambles and the guy who could never land a 5-star recruit is now the second coming of coach K. All of a sudden he's recruting choices are only going to be the McDonald's all-star game?

The problem was not Marquette.  The problem was Crean.  

Contrast him with Huggins.  Cincy was nothing before he got their.  He landed tons of 5-star recruits.  He took them to the final four and had them ranked #1.  He goes to K-State and between heart attacks he gets the best college basketball player in the land to comit.

He goes to WV and between DWIs and falling on his face, he goes to the sweet sixteen.

Huggins can coach.  Huggins can recruit.  It does't matter to Huggins if its Cincy, K-State or WV, he just gets the job done.

Crean has not shown this ability.  People are projecting he will do things he has never shown ability to do.

Crean's glass ceiling at MU was caused by Crean, not MU.  That glass ceiling is now at IU.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Let me try it this way .....

Crean coached in the toughest conference in the country.  His team had one of the best practice facilities around.  They were regualrly featured on national TV and they palyed in a NBA arena.  He had everything to become the "cold weather Duke".  So how many 5-star recruits did he land in his nine years?  Answer zero.

Now he moves to a program in shambles and the guy who could never land a 5-star recruit is now the second coming of coach K. All of a sudden he's recruting choices are only going to be the McDonald's all-star game?

The problem was not Marquette.  The problem was Crean. 

Contrast him with Huggins.  Cincy was nothing before he got their.  He landed tons of 5-star recruits.  He took them to the final four and had them ranked #1.  He goes to K-State and between heart attacks he gets the best college basketball player in the land to comit.

He goes to WV and between SWIs and falling on his face, he goes to the sweet sixteen.

Huggins can coach.  Huggins can recruit.  It does't matter to Huggins if its Cincy, K-State or WV, he just gets the job done.

Crean has not shown this ability.  People are projecting he will do things he has never shown ability to do.

Crean's glass ceiling at MU was caused by Crean, not MU.  That glass ceiling is now at IU.

Well, here are few counterpoints.

IU is about to build a 160 million arena.  I know many of you guys fall over yourselves about playing in a NBA arena, but quite frankly I don't.  Quick, name all those top 25 teams that play in a NBA arena.........

IU is opening up a brand new practice facility this year.

Where did I say he was the second coming of coach K...you keep putting words into people's mouths. 

Crean is a flawed coach, but he's also not as flawed as you make him out to be.  Last I checked he was 3rd in wins in the Big East since he got there...he either recruited well or coached well, that doesn't happen by accident.

Those 5 star players he couldn't get to MU he will get some to IU.  First, it's IU.  Second, the entire state of players will lean largely to IU.  They are raised to be Hoosiers for the most part, do not underestimate that.  It's a powerful draw that you are taking much to lightly.

If you think MU can go higher, well then let's hope you're right and Buzz is the guy.  I'd argue IU in most years has a higher upside on average, not for the next 1 to 2 years, but on average.

Now....Cincy was nothing before Huggins...really....you mean like the three straight national title games they went to with some guy named Oscar Robertson?  Junker as the head coach?  Cincy has plenty of history and a winning tradition that is very similar to ours.  They won two national titles, we've won one.  They've been to 24 NCAA tournaments, we've been to 26.  They have 6 Final Four appearances (5 before Huggins), we have 3.

etc, etc

[Tugg Speedman]

Where did I say they were going to win the Big Ten title or anything like that?  I think they will be one of the top 4 or 5 teams consistently in the Big Ten and every few years will contend. 

Let me be clear here.  I think they are going to do the same.  That's because you pretty much described what MU has been the last several years.  So, we agree that Crean will turn IU into MU.

But it was just this kind of performance that was not good enough to get everyone behind Davis or Sampson.  So now what was unsatisifying is now suddenly satisfying?  But you also say IU fans are not lowering their expectations.  

If they think they are "just another decent big ten bball team" then Crean will do well.  If they still think they are among the select few elite teams in the country, he will disappoint.

All  about expectations.

[Tugg Speedman]

Well, here are few counterpoints.

Quick, name all those top 25 teams that play in a NBA arena.........



Now....Cincy was nothing before Huggins...really....you mean like the three straight national title games they went to with some guy named Oscar Robertson?  Junker as the head coach?  Cincy has plenty of history and a winning tradition that is very similar to ours.  They won two national titles, we've won one.  They've been to 24 NCAA tournaments, we've been to 26.  They have 6 Final Four appearances (5 before Huggins), we have 3.

NBA Arenas - 1 MU.  But that's the point.  How many teams that are rated in the top 25 have a campus that is 6 or 7 blocks from an NBA arena?  Answer 1, MU.  MU has a unique feature that no other school can claim.  Problem is the bucks suck.  If they were actually good, it would mean more.

On Cincy, I hear what your saying but by that logic then Loyola Chicago, U of San Fran, Princeton and Texas El Paso (Western) are also semi-destination jobs for the same reasons.

[Daniel]

Crean will do fine at IU - I really don't care.  How will WE do?   That's what I care about. 

[Schoolyard]

Let me try it this way .....

Crean coached in the toughest conference in the country.  His team had one of the best practice facilities around.  They were regualrly featured on national TV and they palyed in a NBA arena.  He had everything to become the "cold weather Duke".  So how many 5-star recruits did he land in his nine years?  Answer zero.

Now he moves to a program in shambles and the guy who could never land a 5-star recruit is now the second coming of coach K. All of a sudden he's recruting choices are only going to be the McDonald's all-star game?

The problem was not Marquette.  The problem was Crean.  

Sometimes I wonder if people here ever watched hoops before...not to quote TC but it's Indy-Fricking-Ana...it's a top 5 gig.  And while you'll argue that the kids don't know that, their coaches, AAU pimps & Shoes Nazi's do.  A 16 year old opens his mail, tells his AAU pimp about IU and that AAU pimp goes to jello and blubblers on about Jon McGlocklin, Kent Benson, Isaiah, Keith Smart, Cal Cheaney, Coverdale etc etc.  Every adult in their little circle will say "Holy crap..IU!, Wow that's hot."

TC is going to get some sick recruits...in fact I think we're going to see the first 16 seed beat a 1 seed once TC gets IU rolling.

[Coach Norman Dale]

Remember before the scandal hit, Sampson had IU #8 in the nation and hoosier nation was complaining about "what's wrong with the team?"   To be blunt, IU fans remind me of MU fans in the early 1980s.  IU is no longer what it thinks it is.  Like MU fans had to come to grips with Al leaving, IU fans have to understand that Knight is no longer walking their campus.  Their day has come and gone.

I do not know what part of the country you live in but you could not be more wrong about IU and its fans.  I am a strong supporter of Marquette, but I am also a realist.  I was raised in Indiana, and I live in Indiana.  I have a degree from Marquette and two from Indiana University, so I feel very comfortable in speaking about what has gone and is going on in Bloomington.

No one complained about IU being ranked at #8.  The fans were extremely excited, until Sampson's dark side was exposed.  Then the fan base united in realizing he must go.  Cheating is completely unacceptable at IU.

Further, IU fans realize Knight is not coming back -- granted it took a while for many to come to grips with that reality -- but the fan base is now more united behind the program than it has been for a decade or so.  As I have said before, I credit the Sampson mess with causing that to happen.  IU fans stopped squabbling over Knight and Davis and Alford, etc.  Instead they realized that the very fiber of the program had been negatively impacted, and something had to be done to fix that.

Crean will get the job done.  The media is already eating out of his hand, and the recruits will follow.  Simple fact -- recruiting at Indiana is easier than recruiting at Marquette.  It is amazing how there has been virtually no news from Purdue since Crean arrived; it has all been IU.

For a guy from Cali,  Chico's really understands the mindset and mentality of Indiana and its fans.  [I know he went to school there after Marquette, and it is clear he paid attention to what IU basketball means in Indiana and beyond.]  And he is absolutely right when he says there is no comparison between MU and IU fans.

Generally speaking, except for kids from the region [Gary/Hammond] and farm kids, most players in Indiana dream of wearing the cream and crimson, including the candy-striped warm-ups!!!

IU is exactly what it thinks it is and to suggest its day has come and gone is wrong.   

[NCMUFan]

Who really cares what Tom Crean will do?  I think he will do at least as good as he was at Marquette and maybe better since it is a big state school and he can play off of the Indiana tradition like he did here with McGuire.  I think the real question is how will we do?  Are we getting the players to keep us competitive in the top tier of the Big East?

[ChicosBailBonds]

NBA Arenas - 1 MU.  But that's the point.  How many teams that are rated in the top 25 have a campus that is 6 or 7 blocks from an NBA arena?  Answer 1, MU.  MU has a unique feature that no other school can claim.  Problem is the bucks suck.  If they were actually good, it would mean more.

On Cincy, I hear what your saying but by that logic then Loyola Chicago, U of San Fran, Princeton and Texas El Paso (Western) are also semi-destination jobs for the same reasons.

Actually USC had a pro NBA arena on their campus for 2 decades and it did them no good whatsoever. 

I just don't see what the draw is for an NBA arena....I've been to probably 50 or 60 arenas in this country and I'd take a college arena over a NBA arena for a college basketball game 100 times out of 100 if it's done right.  There's just something about the atmosphere, and I fully acknowledge the BC can get really rocking....so can many a college arena.

How is he going to turn IU into MU when IU is completely in the toilet right now?  That's part of the reason he took the job, it's never going to be easier then this...never.  He has a long honeymoon and the state is excited about IU's basketball coach for the first time in a long time....even though he's a prick, they don't care.  Those people LIVE for "my way or the highway".  That's Knight personified, that's exactly what they want.  They want a prick, but "THEIR PRICK".  A PRICK of THEIR OWN. 


On Cincy, I don't understand your point at all.....your comment that they were nothing before Huggins was just wrong.  They were something before Huggins, something during Huggins and now they're trying to become something after Huggins.


Now, let's hope you're right about MU and Buzz.

[TVDirector]

scratching my head about this nba arena thing-
I suppose the question ought to be how many perennial top 25's teams are located in an nba city?  or vice versa?  you might get more of a match.. or not... by taking that into consideration.

No NBA around- it's early so correct the list-:
Duke
UNC
MSU
KY
UConn
UL
UW
Ill.
Kansas

I mean, besides potential matches like Philly/Nova, or NYC/St Johns, or Meadowlands/new equiv./Seton Hall or RU, UCLA?
it seems like nba and ncaa hoops don't coexist well in most instances.
so the how many ncaa teams play in nba arena stuff is jaded at best.
imo

[Tugg Speedman]

IU is exactly what it thinks it is and to suggest its day has come and gone is wrong.   

Coach, 

I think we are saying the same thing but I think we are differing on whether that will be sucessful.

In five years, what will Indiana be?  I have repeatedly said a top 25 team in the top half of the big ten. I also noted that is exactly what MU is - a top 25 team in the top half of the big east.

The problem is too many big ten schools have too big a lead over IU.  MSU has Izzo, enough said.  OSU has Motta and he has TWO McDonald's AA coming in next year (Hartman and Mullens).  Let's stop right their.  These teams are not going downhill (unless Izzo leaves for the NBA) and you should expect them to stay at this level.  So, right now IU is playing for third place.  Will that make Hoosier nation happy?

The next level is Wisconsin who wins the big ten and Ryan has his next two classes filled out.  He probably standing in the way as well.  Illinois is at least as good.

My point is not what Crean can do, rather what the rest of the big ten is doing.  IU is playing for 3rd to 5th in a few years.  The Maurice Suttons, Creeks, Jones, Rivers, Copbianco's are 3rd to 5th talent in the big ten.  So, unless he gets 3 or 4 McDonald's AA on his roster over the next five years, he's not breaking through.  I know you say he will get the AA's.  If and when he signs kids of this cailber, I will agree with you.

But let me focus on this .... in 2012/2013 assume IU has its best season in the last five, 25 wins, finishes tied for 3rd in the big ten, rated #18 and loses in the second round of the tourney (in other words, pretty much what MU did this year).  What will the mood of Hoosier nation be?  I say "restless and quietly complaining".   Again, I'm asking about what do IU fans expect in five years, not what will Crean deliver?  I think they expect an "it's Indiana" kind of program.  Top 5 pre-seaon regularly because they regularly get top five recruting classes.  That means only 4- and 5-start recruits.  Am I wrong?

[jce]

NBA Arenas - 1 MU.  But that's the point.  How many teams that are rated in the top 25 have a campus that is 6 or 7 blocks from an NBA arena?  Answer 1, MU.  MU has a unique feature that no other school can claim.  Problem is the bucks suck.  If they were actually good, it would mean more.

Who cares?  I don't think NBA arenas make for a good college basketball atmosphere anyway.  For instance, I wish that MU had a on-campus arena of about 10,000 rather than playing in the BC.  The BC can really rock, but oftentimes it just seems so sterile.

[Tugg Speedman]

Who cares?  I don't think NBA arenas make for a good college basketball atmosphere anyway.  For instance, I wish that MU had a on-campus arena of about 10,000 rather than playing in the BC.  The BC can really rock, but oftentimes it just seems so sterile.

Then move the games back across the street to the Mecca (11,052).  I assume it is still there.

[jce]

Then move the games back across the street to the Mecca (11,052).  I assume it is still there.

I for one always thought the atmosphere was better there than the BC.  I wouldn't mind that either.

[Pardner]

Who cares?  I don't think NBA arenas make for a good college basketball atmosphere anyway.  For instance, I wish that MU had a on-campus arena of about 10,000 rather than playing in the BC.  The BC can really rock, but oftentimes it just seems so sterile.

Hmmm...the BE teams get pretty excited to play in the Garden for the BET.  SJU has a long storied b-ball history (until their recent scandals).  Georgetown has done pretty well playing in an NBA arena all these years.  Playing in an NBA arena--where visiting teams practice at The Al--is/can be huge recruiting advantage for MU in a city that isn't as attractive to national recruits.  Not to mention the economics of filling all those seats as Milwaukee has been loyal --and the BC's proximity to campus. 

The MECCA is a more exciting venue for college bball, though,

[THEGYMBAR]

Pakuni---You are probably right that TC can be competitive with UW in BT. Unfortunately the type of players he recruited at MU were not competitive with UW. So, do you believe that change of address will make TC more competitive or is UW going to take nose dive?

TC was not competitive with UW the last eight years. I would take UW success over ours during that period. TC arguably had two his top three teams the last two years and UW had greater success or at worst equal. UW was ranked #1 two seasons ago, what was TC's highest ranking. What was his highest seed in NCAA?

[MR.HAYWARD]

AnotherMU84 is dead on correct.... Chicos and norman and others keep saying Crean is going to sign these big time talented 5 star recruits to compete with the top teams in the Big ten.  well if that is the case he better start quickly.   The simple fact is Crean now has 10 scholarships tied up for the next 2 years, he has at least 8 scholarships tied up for the next 4 and possibly nine if sutton commits and by the latest articles he is close.  additionally, he has 2 juniors already commited and another junior from bloomington that seems ready.   so the bottom line is he has a curent list of commits that includes 1 4 star ranking.  basically he is only going to have a total of 2-3 scholarships to give away over this summer and next.  not saying he cannot or will not sign any 5 star guys , my point is if he wants to ahve 2-3 5 star guys on his roster that is all he better recruit or offer becuase he only has a couple left to give  and becuase he kicked, off ran off, or whatever the entire sophomore and junior classes no scholarships are going to be freed up thru graduation.  That is my point, he is in such need to fill a roster that it will be all freshman and sophomores and they are all 2 and 3 star kids.  maybe Crean will run some of those guys oput of the program in the next couple of years to find room for some 5 star guys?  i do not know.  But for all these 5 star kids some say he will get he needs scolly's and this is all presuming the NCaa does not take any away.