Is anyone else concerned about this team's extremely poor free throw shooting? In a close game, it could make a difference.
Quote from: Disco Hippie on March 03, 2024, 01:29:33 PM
Is anyone else concerned about this team's extremely poor free throw shooting? In a close game, it could make a difference.
There are a number of things that concern me, but that's pretty far down the list. Not much can be done about it anyway.
Sultan
Serious question, aside from injuries, what are your concerns the rest the way?
Quote from: Goose on March 03, 2024, 01:35:15 PM
Sultan
Serious question, aside from injuries, what are your concerns the rest the way?
Ability to score against a physical defense is my top concern. A poor three point shooting night is probably second.
Sultan
Agree on both. Have said multiple times, if the season ends with a loss we will not need to have much debate on what happened. A cold shooting night is number for me.
I will add, they do need to shoot FT better, especially the bonus. They miss too many front ends and that is big in the tournament.
I continue to be surprised that good shooters like Kam and Joplin are meh from the FT line.
But I agree with y'all that there are bigger concerns.
Quote from: Disco Hippie on March 03, 2024, 01:29:33 PM
Is anyone else concerned about this team's extremely poor free throw shooting? In a close game, it could make a difference.
No
Quote from: Goose on March 03, 2024, 02:00:49 PM
Sultan
Agree on both. Have said multiple times, if the season ends with a loss we will not need to have much debate on what happened. A cold shooting night is number for me.
I will add, they do need to shoot FT better, especially the bonus. They miss too many front ends and that is big in the tournament.
What frustrates me more is our rebounding, especially offensively. Four of our guys around the basket yet the one opposing player under the basket gets the ball and scores.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 03, 2024, 02:17:19 PM
No
You injured your oblique again. Sorry I misdiagnosed, its chronic.
Quote from: Disco Hippie on March 03, 2024, 01:29:33 PM
Is anyone else concerned about this team's extremely poor free throw shooting? In a close game, it could make a difference.
no largely doesn't matter at all
Quote from: jfp61 on March 03, 2024, 02:44:46 PM
no largely doesn't matter at all
And yet we sweated the end of our game at St. John's because of poor FT shooting. All points matter.
Teams usually have at least a couple of weak spots in a game. While FTs may not be high on the list, they do sometimes matter. However, you did qualify your post by saying "largely". I agree with that. It's just as easy to blame a loss on missed rebounds, poor 3 point shooting, turnovers, etc. I really do not like sentences beginning with the word "if" in comments after a loss. At the end of those sentences, you
know there will be something along the lines "...then we would have won". But we didn't.
Quote from: Goose on March 03, 2024, 01:35:15 PM
Sultan
Serious question, aside from injuries, what are your concerns the rest the way?
Goose
#1 for me is also a poor shooting night
#2 is a "let them play" ref crew against a physical, "bully ball" team.
Quote from: Disco Hippie on March 03, 2024, 01:29:33 PM
Is anyone else concerned about this team's extremely poor free throw shooting? In a close game, it could make a difference.
I shan't sleep.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on March 03, 2024, 01:33:16 PM
There are a number of things that concern me, but that's pretty far down the list. Not much can be done about it anyway.
Not a Big concern in Big East, because there are not many fouls called. It is a problem, if there are a lot of fouls called in an NCAA tournament game.
Lenny
I think #1 is the biggest fear and hard to ignore it. All they need is a hot 6 game run and I like their chances. That said, it only takes one bad night.
If they are going deep, they likely will need to find a way to overcome at least below average shooting night. Defense will need to be their calling card in the tournament.
Shooting free throws at home, away and on neutral court are probably all different.
Opposing student sections behind the basket waving any distracting thing they can and shouting at the top of their lungs has to challenge one's concentration.
Versus a very still, calm student section at the Fiserv.
Quote from: Goose on March 03, 2024, 06:37:26 PM
Lenny
I think #1 is the biggest fear and hard to ignore it. All they need is a hot 6 game run and I like their chances. That said, it only takes one bad night.
If they are going deep, they likely will need to find a way to overcome at least below average shooting night. Defense will need to be their calling card in the tournament.
MU is very difficult to stop when their main guys are shooting well from deep. It's time for an MU squad to get hot in March, and not just the BE tournament. If good Kam, Kolek and Jolp show up I feel good about elite 8 or better.
Quote from: Disco Hippie on March 03, 2024, 01:29:33 PM
Is anyone else concerned about this team's extremely poor free throw shooting? In a close game, it could make a difference.
Yes too many of our top players frequently miss critical free throws down the stretch.
Nothing can be done in season to change . Hopefully they all work on it off season.
Raising our season FT% by 4% would put us in the top 50 nationally for FT%.
Raising it by 4% would also have resulted in us making 17.8 more FTs. Divide that by the 29 games we've played and that's a whopping 0.61 points a game.
So, no. Im not really worried about our FT%.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 03, 2024, 02:20:59 PM
What frustrates me more is our rebounding, especially offensively. Four of our guys around the basket yet the one opposing player under the basket gets the ball and scores.
What you describe is defensive rebounding.
Quote from: Disco Hippie on March 03, 2024, 01:29:33 PM
Is anyone else concerned about this team's extremely poor free throw shooting? In a close game, it could make a difference.
I am. It's not only that we miss them, but we seem to miss them at crucial junctures. We do so much else well hopefully it won't come back to bite us.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 03, 2024, 11:09:09 PM
Raising our season FT% by 4% would put us in the top 50 nationality for FT%.
Raising it by 4% would also have resulted in us making 17.8 more FTs. Divide that by the 29 games we've played and that's a whopping .61 points a game.
So, no. Im not really worried about our FT%.
This
MU shoots FTs at 72%, the national average. FTR is a 2 correlate to MU's offensive efficiency, while eFG% is 98. Shoot eFG% at 57 or better and MU wins most times (only two losses in Shaka's three years when that happened, none this year). Let's focus our collective Scoop angst on Trey shooting consistency.
Quote from: Disco Hippie on March 03, 2024, 01:29:33 PM
Is anyone else concerned about this team's extremely poor free throw shooting? In a close game, it could make a difference.
No
Quote from: Disco Hippie on March 03, 2024, 01:29:33 PM
Is anyone else concerned about this team's extremely poor free throw shooting? In a close game, it could make a difference.
Good teams make free throws, especially in the stretch.
Good teams rebound.
This team has played well despite not consistently doing both well, it WILL catch up to them.
Quote from: SonOfWarrior on March 04, 2024, 12:31:46 PM
Good teams make free throws, especially in the stretch.
Not much correlation that I can tell.
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/150
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on March 04, 2024, 12:34:58 PM
Not much correlation that I can tell.
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/150
Yeah, 2012 UK who a lot consider the best team of the past 15 years shot an identical FT% as 2024 MU. 3 of the past 6 national champions shot worse than this MU team.
Much ado about nothing.
#FTsNoMatta
Our performance when at the line represents elite offense
Quote from: tower912 on March 04, 2024, 05:38:37 AM
What you describe is defensive rebounding.
Well both then. We suck under the basket.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 04, 2024, 02:25:43 PM
Well both then. We suck under the basket.
We're much better than we were a year ago. And we'll never be a great defensive rebounding team using this system, yet we have a top-20 defense. Our defense is designed to create pressure, turn teams over, and limit how much of the the shot clock they productively use. That's going to lead to offensive rebounds.
Marquette is #15 in turnover rate, but #257 in defensive rebounding rate. But of the top-20 teams in turnover rate, only ONE is in the top-200 of defensive rebounding rate, and that's Houston at #190. Nine of the top-20 are #300 or worse, like we were a year ago.
Bottom line, if you want a great defensive rebounding team, you probably need to wait for a different coach to get it. Shaka has never had a team in the top-140 of DR%. And yet he's had a top-55 defense 13 straight years (and top-40 11/13). You have to take the bad with the good.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2024, 02:35:04 PM
We're much better than we were a year ago. And we'll never be a great defensive rebounding team using this system, yet we have a top-20 defense. Our defense is designed to create pressure, turn teams over, and limit how much of the the shot clock they productively use. That's going to lead to offensive rebounds.
Marquette is #15 in turnover rate, but #257 in defensive rebounding rate. But of the top-20 teams in turnover rate, only ONE is in the top-200 of defensive rebounding rate, and that's Houston at #190. Nine of the top-20 are #300 or worse, like we were a year ago.
Bottom line, if you want a great defensive rebounding team, you probably need to wait for a different coach to get it. Shaka has never had a team in the top-140 of DR%. And yet he's had a top-55 defense 13 straight years (and top-40 11/13). You have to take the bad with the good.
Facts don't belong on Scoop
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2024, 02:35:04 PM
But of the top-20 teams in turnover rate, only ONE is in the top-200 of defensive rebounding rate, and that's Houston at #190. Nine of the top-20 are #300 or worse, like we were a year ago.
I normally am ok w people slighting MU West, but Iowa State has better %s than Houston in both to% and dr% (ranking #2 and #148, respectively)
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2024, 02:35:04 PM
We're much better than we were a year ago. And we'll never be a great defensive rebounding team using this system, yet we have a top-20 defense. Our defense is designed to create pressure, turn teams over, and limit how much of the the shot clock they productively use. That's going to lead to offensive rebounds.
Marquette is #15 in turnover rate, but #257 in defensive rebounding rate. But of the top-20 teams in turnover rate, only ONE is in the top-200 of defensive rebounding rate, and that's Houston at #190. Nine of the top-20 are #300 or worse, like we were a year ago.
Bottom line, if you want a great defensive rebounding team, you probably need to wait for a different coach to get it. Shaka has never had a team in the top-140 of DR%. And yet he's had a top-55 defense 13 straight years (and top-40 11/13). You have to take the bad with the good.
OK, but that does not explain why one opponent player still manages to get the ball and score surrounded by three of our players. I have seen it too many times. Its like our guys have teflon hands while their one guy has velcro.
Quote from: Goose on March 03, 2024, 02:00:49 PM
Sultan
Agree on both. Have said multiple times, if the season ends with a loss we will not need to have much debate on what happened. A cold shooting night is number for me.
I will add, they do need to shoot FT better, especially the bonus. They miss too many front ends and that is big in the tournament.
I don't get those who blow off the poor free throw shooting while grinding their dentures over "other stuff".
if we are struggling from the 3 point line, it makes free throw shooting all the more important
if we are struggling with fill-in-the-blank "stuff" FT matta A FU**ing LOT MORE
if we are playing a perfect game and winning by 10 with 30 seconds to go, maybe not so much
Quote from: rocket surgeon on March 04, 2024, 05:25:44 PM
I don't get those who blow off the poor free throw shooting while grinding their dentures over "other stuff".
if we are struggling from the 3 point line, it makes free throw shooting all the more important
if we are struggling with fill-in-the-blank "stuff" FT matta A FU**ing LOT MORE
if we are playing a perfect game and winning by 10 with 30 seconds to go, maybe not so much
It's just math.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=65839.msg1631032#msg1631032
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on March 04, 2024, 05:42:25 PM
It's just math.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=65839.msg1631032#msg1631032
Won't understand
When's team plays balls out defense and never slows down the offense their heart and breathing rates are higher than any attempted scrimmage at that level, you are going to miss the otherwise automatic free throws. Is it worth it, you bet in our case.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 03, 2024, 11:09:09 PM
Raising our season FT% by 4% would put us in the top 50 nationally for FT%.
Raising it by 4% would also have resulted in us making 17.8 more FTs. Divide that by the 29 games we've played and that's a whopping 0.61 points a game.
So, no. Im not really worried about our FT%.
So, one more made free throw every 25 attempts and MU's percentage would be elite. Right now, MU is basically 18/25. 19/25 is elite.
Isn't MU near the bottom of the Big East in getting to the line though? That is a bigger issue for me. It would be nice to have some more opportunities for freebies throughout the game.
Quote from: The Thing on March 05, 2024, 07:50:11 AM
Isn't MU near the bottom of the Big East in getting to the line though? That is a bigger issue for me. It would be nice to have some more opportunities for freebies throughout the game.
Yes we're at the bottom of the Big East and yes that's the much bigger issue.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 03, 2024, 04:15:11 PM
Goose
#1 for me is also a poor shooting night
#2 is a "let them play" ref crew against a physical, "bully ball" team.
Far more concerned about a ref ticky tacky touch fouls
When a game is lost by a point or two, fans of the losing team focus like lasers on the last missed FTs or missed final shot. They often refuse to take the entire game into consideration and admit that there were many missed shots, free throws, fouls-questionable and/or missed-and perhaps a technical that could just as easily be identified as the reason their team lost. Defensive failures that allowed the opponents easy opportunities to score often escape blame for the loss. Post game comments begin with the word "IF" and end with "we would have won".
With the clock stopped and everyone nervously watching the FTs leave the shooters hand, I think FTs get more attention than they deserve.
Exactly.
And this is why I have never understood the notion that it is "too early to use your replay challenge" in the NBA. If it is a clear and obvious error that saves your team a possession, it doesn't matter when you use it. But possessions near the end of the game are considered more important, but if a team treats each possession as important, than the end of the game doesn't matter.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on March 05, 2024, 09:14:54 AM
Exactly.
And this is why I have never understood the notion that it is "too early to use your replay challenge" in the NBA. If it is a clear and obvious error that saves your team a possession, it doesn't matter when you use it. But possessions near the end of the game are considered more important, but if a team treats each possession as important, than the end of the game doesn't matter.
I believe the thought is the element of time. Early on, you have plenty of time to make up the 50/50 call, whereas later, you may have just a few possessions. More so, games (especially NBA games) tighten leads later making the appeal more valuable.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 05, 2024, 09:19:48 AM
I believe the thought is the element of time. Early on, you have plenty of time to make up the 50/50 call, whereas later, you may have just a few possessions. More so, games (especially NBA games) tighten leads later making the appeal more valuable.
That is reasonable.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 05, 2024, 09:19:48 AM
I believe the thought is the element of time. Early on, you have plenty of time to make up the 50/50 call, whereas later, you may have just a few possessions. More so, games (especially NBA games) tighten leads later making the appeal more valuable.
Great point, Dr. B. And the Cavaliers sure were glad they had their challenge available right at the very end last night - it literally won them the game vs. the Celtics.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 05, 2024, 08:33:45 AM
When a game is lost by a point or two, fans of the losing team focus like lasers on the last missed FTs or missed final shot. They often refuse to take the entire game into consideration and admit that there were many missed shots, free throws, fouls-questionable and/or missed-and perhaps a technical that could just as easily be identified as the reason their team lost. Defensive failures that allowed the opponents easy opportunities to score often escape blame for the loss. Post game comments begin with the word "IF" and end with "we would have won".
With the clock stopped and everyone nervously watching the FTs leave the shooters hand, I think FTs get more attention than they deserve.
I guess we shouldn't pay attention and just turn off the TV to see if a FT attempt won or lost the game in the closing seconds.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 06, 2024, 09:31:20 AM
I guess we shouldn't pay attention and just turn off the TV to see if a FT attempt won or lost the game in the closing seconds.
You have quite a talent for distorting anything and everything that does not fit into your neat little theories. My
point was that there are many things that happen during a game that can be identified as the reason one's team lost. I listed some and will add a couple more- missed rebound opportunities and turnovers, especially unforced ones. You took my point and
tried to twist it to support an apparent obsession with FTs. Nice try, but no cigar.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 06, 2024, 10:12:51 AM
You have quite a talent for distorting anything and everything that does not fit into your neat little theories. My point was that there are many things that happen during a game that can be identified as the reason one's team lost. I listed some and will add a couple more- missed rebound opportunities and turnovers, especially unforced ones. You took my point and tried to twist it to support an apparent obsession with FTs. Nice try, but no cigar.
You're right about all this, including what you said about the poster you responded to.
It reminds me of those who actually think
the reason we lost to Purdue was Lance Jones throwing in a 75-foot shot at the halftime buzzer. As if the rest of the game - including the entire 20 minutes of the second half - didn't matter.
Quote from: MU82 on March 06, 2024, 10:34:57 AM
You're right about all this, including what you said about the poster you responded to.
It reminds me of those who actually think the reason we lost to Purdue was Lance Jones throwing in a 75-foot shot at the halftime buzzer. As if the rest of the game - including the entire 20 minutes of the second half - didn't matter.
I will add that any post-game comments that begin with "If" and finish with "we would have won", while technically correct, ignore everything else that transpired. How about this? (St. John's game, NYC) " If" we protected our 13 point lead by solid defense and making shots late in the game, Kolek's missed FTs would not have made anyone nervous.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 05, 2024, 08:33:45 AM
When a game is lost by a point or two, fans of the losing team focus like lasers on the last missed FTs or missed final shot. They often refuse to take the entire game into consideration and admit that there were many missed shots, free throws, fouls-questionable and/or missed-and perhaps a technical that could just as easily be identified as the reason their team lost. Defensive failures that allowed the opponents easy opportunities to score often escape blame for the loss. Post game comments begin with the word "IF" and end with "we would have won".
With the clock stopped and everyone nervously watching the FTs leave the shooters hand, I think FTs get more attention than they deserve.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 06, 2024, 10:12:51 AM
You have quite a talent for distorting anything and everything that does not fit into your neat little theories. My point was that there are many things that happen during a game that can be identified as the reason one's team lost. I listed some and will add a couple more- missed rebound opportunities and turnovers, especially unforced ones. You took my point and tried to twist it to support an apparent obsession with FTs. Nice try, but no cigar.
I am not sure how I twisted anything. You clearly state last missed FT or final shots.
He clearly stated that fans of the losing team focus on last missed FT or final shots.
Quote from: Spotcheck Billy on March 06, 2024, 11:26:34 AM
He clearly stated that fans of the losing team focus on last missed FT or final shots.
...and I am sure fans of the winning team focus on the last missed FTs or final shot as well. Every fan is focused on that last play when it determines the outcome of the game.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 06, 2024, 11:37:14 AM
...and I am sure fans of the winning team focus on the last missed FTs or final shot as well. Every fan is focused on that last play when it determines the outcome of the game.
Read MU 82's post regarding the Purdue game and
maybe you will be able to understand, but only if you read it with an open mind.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 06, 2024, 11:43:00 AM
Read MU 82's post regarding the Purdue game and maybe you will be able to understand, but only if you read it with an open mind.
Look, I'll concede there were some here that complained that circus shot to end the first half against Purdue cost us the game, but again your first sentence clearly says the last missed free throws or final shot and that is what I was commenting about. In fact it was Ty and Kam's failure to tie the game in the final seconds to take the game into OT that cost us a chance to win that game.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 06, 2024, 03:06:06 PM
Look, I'll concede there were some here that complained that circus shot to end the first half against Purdue cost us the game, but again your first sentence clearly says the last missed free throws or final shot and that is what I was commenting about. In fact it was Ty and Kam's failure to tie the game in the final seconds to take the game into OT that cost us a chance to win that game.
And what
follows that first sentence? "They often fail to take the entire game into consideration..." I see the game as a whole.
Of course everyone is watching those last shots, but
again...the reasons that the game is won or lost cannot be assigned to any
one thing. The GAME is won or lost, not the final FTs or shot. They are
part of the whole.
I'm done here.