Belichick 6 NFL Championships in 29 seasons; Vince Lombardi 5 NFL Championships in 10 seasons. Thoughts?
1. Lombardi
2. Belichick
3. Halas (6 'Chips)
Belichick.
Vincent T. Lombardi. I would argue the greatest head coach in any sport.
Belichick was mediocre at best in Cleveland and mediocre to lousy without Brady. It's not him. Lombardi was never mediocre. He was going to make Washington great too.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 11, 2024, 08:38:24 PM
Vincent T. Lombardi. I would argue the greatest head coach in any sport.
Belichick was mediocre at best in Cleveland and mediocre to lousy without Brady. It's not him. Lombardi was never mediocre. He was going to make Washington great too.
He would have except for F-ing Dan Snyder!
Quote from: MU1in77 on January 11, 2024, 08:14:43 PM
Belichick 6 NFL Championships in 29 seasons; Vince Lombardi 5 NFL Championships in 10 seasons. Thoughts?
16 teams and 4 playoff spots. Talent pool extraordinarily deeper in modern era. I give it to Bill, far more difficult to win one now. If Lombardi made Washington a dynasty maybe that changes my answer.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 11, 2024, 08:28:17 PM
1. Lombardi
2. Belichick
3. Halas (6 'Chips)
Others to consider:
Saban
Wooden
Bear Bryant
Shula
K
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 11, 2024, 09:00:54 PM
Others to consider:
Saban
Wooden
Bear Bryant
Shula
K
Gotta have Phil Jackson in that list.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 11, 2024, 09:09:57 PM
Gotta have Phil Jackson in that list.
I didn't notice the NFL in caps right in front of me - my bad
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 11, 2024, 08:38:24 PM
Belichick was mediocre at best in Cleveland and mediocre to lousy without Brady. It's not him. Lombardi was never mediocre. He was going to make Washington great too.
Belichick took over an absolute dumpster fire in Cleveland. The year before he was hired was the literal worst defense in the NFL in the entire 90s. And the offense was lead by a broken Kosar who had just had the worst season of his career. Belichick turned them into a very good playoff team in 4 years. Entered his final year as a presumptive Super Bowl contender and then Modell dropped a bomb on the franchise and the city and the season imploded. Looking at BB and Cleveland his last two years, its not hard to see the makings of what then happened in New England.
Plus his staff between the 94 and 95 seasons had 3 future NFL head coaches, plus Nick Saban and Kirk Ferentz, and also Pat Hill who coached Fresno State for 15 years.
Lombardi never had a losing season. The Packers were 1-10-1 when he took over. The Redskins were 5-9 the year before he arrived. He had the Packers in the NFL championship two years in and never lost a championship game after that loss to Philly (in Philly).
He produced HOF at such a ridiculous level, it became a voter topic and bias there were too many of his Packers already in. This in an era where head coaches didn't have a small army of assistants and head coaches played a huge role on both sides of the ball and player development.
Lombardi= GOAT
Quote from: JWags85 on January 11, 2024, 09:58:11 PM
Belichick took over an absolute dumpster fire in Cleveland. The year before he was hired was the literal worst defense in the NFL in the entire 90s. And the offense was lead by a broken Kosar who had just had the worst season of his career. Belichick turned them into a very good playoff team in 4 years. Entered his final year as a presumptive Super Bowl contender and then Modell dropped a bomb on the franchise and the city and the season imploded. Looking at BB and Cleveland his last two years, its not hard to see the makings of what then happened in New England.
Plus his staff between the 94 and 95 seasons had 3 future NFL head coaches, plus Nick Saban and Kirk Ferentz, and also Pat Hill who coached Fresno State for 15 years.
He had 4 losing seasons in 5 at Cleveland with a wild card win. It's generous my labeling his body of work there mediocre. And his coaching tree is a really weak argument. As great as Saban became it was entirely off his college record.
Hutch knows football! Lombardi was relentless and so many coaches(good ones) modeled their style after him.
He took guys who's 2nd jobs were used car salesmen, bartenders, etc and turned them into winning athletes at highest level at that time. talent pool was all relative. He'd do the same today with the 24/7 athlete or they'd be full time used car salesmen and bartenders
Lombardi was the best ever.
His downfall was he wasn't a great personnel guy. Look up Jack Vainisi to see who the hero was in that regard.
Lombardi's style would never work today.
It's Belichick for navigating the salary cap era.
Lombardi is in the discussion, but then so is Paul Brown and Chuck Noll and Tom Landry and Don Shula and Joe Gibbs.
Lombardi had the luxury of roster continuity. He saw the writing on the wall when he left.
Also, I'd pay top dollar to see Lombardi take used car salesman and try to win football games today
Bill Walsh?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 12, 2024, 07:23:27 AM
It's Belichick for navigating the salary cap era.
Lombardi is in the discussion, but then so is Paul Brown and Chuck Noll and Tom Landry and Don Shula and Joe Gibbs.
Lombardi had the luxury of roster continuity. He saw the writing on the wall when he left.
Also, I'd pay top dollar to see Lombardi take used car salesman and try to win football games today
I agree Belichick was for a long time was the best GM in the game on top of being an all time coach.
If we are including non-coaching duties and contributions, hands down it's Halas for me. There is no NFL without Halas.
Quote from: tower912 on January 12, 2024, 07:30:08 AM
Bill Walsh?
Most influential offensive coach of the modern era. Cultivated a lineage down to Andy Reid, born from Paul Brown.
In '86, Niners lost Montana in week one. Navigated the team to a 4-3-1 record with Jeff Kemp and Mike Moroski at QB. Saved Steve Young. He's in the discussion. Wouldn't be my choice but I'd listen
Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 12, 2024, 07:38:00 AM
I agree Belichick was for a long time was the best GM in the game on top of being an all time coach.
If we are including non-coaching duties and contributions, hands down it's Halas for me. There is no NFL without Halas.
His legacy and lineage is long, too. Definitely can't have the discussion without him
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 12, 2024, 07:41:20 AM
Most influential offensive coach of the modern era. Cultivated a lineage down to Andy Reid, born from Paul Brown.
In '86, Niners lost Montana in week one. Navigated the team to a 4-3-1 record with Jeff Kemp and Mike Moroski at QB. Saved Steve Young. He's in the discussion. Wouldn't be my choice but I'd listen
GOAT discussions bore me. I agree with your assessment about Walsh. But he belongs in the discussion.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 12, 2024, 07:42:45 AM
His legacy and lineage is long, too. Definitely can't have the discussion without him
He was a complicated man. Still not sure if Ditka loved him or hated him.
He was the hard nosed SOB needed to make the NFL endure and become successful. He started the NFL when there was
no interest in professional football.
Quote from: tower912 on January 12, 2024, 07:45:58 AM
GOAT discussions bore me. I agree with your assessment about Walsh. But he belongs in the discussion.
Correct about the discussion aspect, especially if someone tells you his or her choice is the only option. I think it's Belichick in the NFL and Saban in college. Might be right, might not be. All subjective
Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 12, 2024, 07:48:43 AM
He was a complicated man. Still not sure if Ditka loved him or hated him.
He was the hard nosed SOB needed to make the NFL endure and become successful. He started the NFL when there was no interest in professional football.
It's interesting how college athletics dominated outside boxing and baseball because of the amateurism aspect in da dey der.
I'll always maintain football's rise at the pro level was as much about gambling as TV. Probably a combo of both. And Pete Rozelle
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 12, 2024, 06:47:27 AM
Lombardi's style would never work today.
Maybe. I think most people would agree with you. But coaching still comes down to relationships. That was Lombardi's strength. He didn't know more X's and O's Than other guys. Parcells is a more modern coach who was Lombardi-ish.
Tomlin also follows in that tradition and certain guys can't play for him, especially wide receivers. But I've never seen a 'tough guy' who wanted out in Pittsburgh because Tomlin was too hard on players.
Anyway, I'd put Shula, Lombardi, and Parcells ahead of Belichick.
Quote from: Jockey on January 12, 2024, 09:03:53 AM
Maybe. I think most people would agree with you. But coaching still comes down to relationships. That was Lombardi's strength. He didn't know more X's and O's Than other guys. Parcells is a more modern coach who was Lombardi-ish.
Tomlin also follows in that tradition and certain guys can't play for him, especially wide receivers. But I've never seen a 'tough guy' who wanted out in Pittsburgh because Tomlin was too hard on players.
Anyway, I'd put Shula, Lombardi, and Parcells ahead of Belichick.
Lombardi's personal skills were excellent. Very progressive for his times, yet demanding. Lot more CEO than people realize
Quote from: tower912 on January 12, 2024, 07:45:58 AM
GOAT discussions bore me.
You much prefer Mount Rushmore discussions, I hear.
Lombardi, Belichick, Shula, Walsh?
Uh-oh ... no Halas there. D'oh!
Quote from: Jockey on January 12, 2024, 09:03:53 AM
Maybe. I think most people would agree with you. But coaching still comes down to relationships. That was Lombardi's strength. He didn't know more X's and O's Than other guys. Parcells is a more modern coach who was Lombardi-ish.
Tomlin also follows in that tradition and certain guys can't play for him, especially wide receivers. But I've never seen a 'tough guy' who wanted out in Pittsburgh because Tomlin was too hard on players.
Anyway, I'd put Shula, Lombardi, and Parcells ahead of Belichick.
Good points.
Quote from: MU82 on January 12, 2024, 09:10:36 AM
You much prefer Mount Rushmore discussions, I hear.
Lombardi, Belichick, Shula, Walsh?
Uh-oh ... no Halas there. D'oh!
Check your hearing.
Lombardi: Great coach
Hoodie Bill: Great Coach
Landry, Walsh, Cowher, Ditka, Shula, Tuna, etc... Great coaches all.
Quote from: tower912 on January 12, 2024, 09:23:03 AM
Check your hearing.
Lombardi: Great coach
Hoodie Bill: Great Coach
Landry, Walsh, Cowher, Ditka, Shula, Tuna, etc... Great coaches all.
I think you got the answer. Maybe there wasn't a "greatest". Rather, there were a lot of greats.
Same could be said of almost every sport.
Quote from: Jockey on January 12, 2024, 10:10:41 AM
I think you got the answer. Maybe there wasn't a "greatest". Rather, there were a lot of greats.
Same could be said of almost every sport.
What fun is that? Gotta argue about this, and remember that my greatest is absolutely THE greatest!!!
Quote from: tower912 on January 12, 2024, 09:23:03 AM
Check your hearing.
Lombardi: Great coach
Hoodie Bill: Great Coach
Landry, Walsh, Cowher, Ditka, Shula, Tuna, etc... Great coaches all.
I assumed the question was, as always, who is the GOAT after Ditka.
The relevant Ditka question is 'God or Ditka?'. Coin flip for me.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 12, 2024, 11:02:02 AM
I assumed the question was, as always, who is the GOAT after Ditka.
The relevant Ditka question is 'God or Ditka?'. Coin flip for me.
Definitely in the conversation for most overrated coach of all time.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 12, 2024, 02:58:38 PM
Definitely in the conversation for most overrated coach of all time.
Is he in the GOAT discussion? Absolutely not. But if you're talking coaches who coached over 100 games, his winning percentage in Chicago is top 12 all time.
I don't think anyone outside of Chicago meatballs think he's an all time legend. But he was a very good coach in his prime. Taking the Saints job was foolish and tarnished an otherwise very good coaching resume. He's a prime example of a very good coach who also underachieved significantly. Honestly, a lot of similarities with a similarly maligned Mike Tomlin.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 12, 2024, 03:35:48 PM
Is he in the GOAT discussion? Absolutely not. But if you're talking coaches who coached over 100 games, his winning percentage in Chicago is top 12 all time.
I don't think anyone outside of Chicago meatballs think he's an all time legend. But he was a very good coach in his prime. Taking the Saints job was foolish and tarnished an otherwise very good coaching resume. He's a prime example of a very good coach who also underachieved significantly. Honestly, a lot of similarities with a similarly maligned Mike Tomlin.
Thanks buddy Ryan
Quote from: JWags85 on January 12, 2024, 03:35:48 PM
Is he in the GOAT discussion? Absolutely not. But if you're talking coaches who coached over 100 games, his winning percentage in Chicago is top 12 all time.
I don't think anyone outside of Chicago meatballs think he's an all time legend. But he was a very good coach in his prime. Taking the Saints job was foolish and tarnished an otherwise very good coaching resume. He's a prime example of a very good coach who also underachieved significantly. Honestly, a lot of similarities with a similarly maligned Mike Tomlin.
Thank you Jim Finks & Buddy Ryan,
Yours truly,
Michael D.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 12, 2024, 02:58:38 PM
Definitely in the conversation for most overrated coach of all time.
Maybe Ditka is but Mini Ditka is awesome!
Pass me a kielbasa.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 12, 2024, 02:58:38 PM
Definitely in the conversation for most overrated coach of all time.
True. God often disappoints
But who would win between a hurricane and Ditka?
Quote from: lawdog77 on January 12, 2024, 06:55:57 PM
But who would win between a hurricane and Ditka?
A hurricane named Michael?
Lombardi =NFL Coach GOAT
He was not only an X and O Coach , he also motivated players to be their best. Many cited their post NFL career success to the lessons and foundations the coach built for them.
Quote from: Herman Cain on January 12, 2024, 09:15:27 PM
Lombardi =NFL Coach GOAT
He was not only an X and O Coach , he also motivated players to be their best. Many cited their post NFL career success to the lessons and foundations the coach built for them.
Yes, no other NFL coach did this for their players.
The Athletic makes a compelling case for Don Shula:
https://theathletic.com/5182515/2024/01/12/bill-belichick-don-shula-patriots-dolphins-colts/
He isn't, but he's worth mentioning, Andy Reid
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 14, 2024, 09:28:15 AM
He isn't, but he's worth mentioning, Andy Reid
I think Andy Reid is the perfect example of someone who learned and grew a ton as a coach, but just needed a change of scenery, personnel, etc... to truly flourish.
He was very good, but not great in Philly and then became great in a hurry in KC. Sure he needed a generational QB to finally get a ring, but what he did even before Mahomes was super impressive. KC made the playoffs 3 times in 15 years before he arrived. He made it twice in his first 3 years and then hasn't lost the division since, now 8 in a row.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 14, 2024, 02:18:27 PM
I think Andy Reid is the perfect example of someone who learned and grew a ton as a coach, but just needed a change of scenery, personnel, etc... to truly flourish.
He was very good, but not great in Philly and then became great in a hurry in KC. Sure he needed a generational QB to finally get a ring, but what he did even before Mahomes was super impressive. KC made the playoffs 3 times in 15 years before he arrived. He made it twice in his first 3 years and then hasn't lost the division since, now 8 in a row.
I would say he was able to transition from a defensive-minded coach to an innovative offensive coach. Plus, he is able to overcome the dumbness that is Matt Nagy.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 16, 2024, 09:28:18 AM
I would say he was able to transition from a defensive-minded coach to an innovative offensive coach. Plus, he is able to overcome the dumbness that is Matt Nagy.
Where do you get he was a defensive minded coach? He's been the playcaller since early in his Eagles days, he was the one who pushed for them to draft McNabb when dual threat QBs were still in their infancy. The Eagles were nearly always top 10, if not top 5/8 in the NFL in scoring when he was in charge.
But to the latter, overcoming Nagy is as compelling as an argument for him in the HoF as his SB wins.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 16, 2024, 10:10:09 AM
Where do you get he was a defensive minded coach? He's been the playcaller since early in his Eagles days, he was the one who pushed for them to draft McNabb when dual threat QBs were still in their infancy. The Eagles were nearly always top 10, if not top 5/8 in the NFL in scoring when he was in charge.
But to the latter, overcoming Nagy is as compelling as an argument for him in the HoF as his SB wins.
Crazy that Nagy won NFL Coach of the Year. Hero to Zero in a snap.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 16, 2024, 10:10:09 AM
Where do you get he was a defensive minded coach? He's been the playcaller since early in his Eagles days, he was the one who pushed for them to draft McNabb when dual threat QBs were still in their infancy. The Eagles were nearly always top 10, if not top 5/8 in the NFL in scoring when he was in charge.
But to the latter, overcoming Nagy is as compelling as an argument for him in the HoF as his SB wins.
Yea, Reid has always coached on the offensive side of the ball. I always remember his reputation being innovative offense, but not great on defense.
Quote from: cheebs09 on January 16, 2024, 01:40:55 PM
Yea, Reid has always coached on the offensive side of the ball. I always remember his reputation being innovative offense, but not great on defense.
He had a very good DC in Philly. Jim Johnson was one of the best.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 16, 2024, 01:45:14 PM
He had a very good DC in Philly. Jim Johnson was one of the best.
Yes. My bad as I remembered Johnson's defenses and conservative games. That said, the RPO has been transformational
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 16, 2024, 01:52:08 PM
Yes. My bad as I remembered Johnson's defenses and conservative games. That said, the RPO has been transformational
Agree.
In an alternate universe, he gets the Packers job after Holmgren. Ron Wolf alludes to as much in his book about his time in Green Bay but he wanted a coach with experience.
Given Reid's relationship with the Dongslinging Welfare Bandit, I wonder if he would have held him responsible instead of what happened which was Rhodes and Sherman not holding him responsible at all while head coach. They might have gotten a second title instead of the Welfare Bandit "gunslinging" it to the opponent like political bribes in the post-season
Honestly I think that's Wolf protecting his legacy a bit - as he is want to do. The Rhodes hire was a terrible one that everyone knew would be terrible.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 16, 2024, 02:07:48 PM
Honestly I think that's Wolf protecting his legacy a bit - as he is want to do. The Rhodes hire was a terrible one that everyone knew would be terrible.
He admitted it was a terrible hire and that he screwed the pooch not giving more consideration to Reid
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 16, 2024, 01:45:14 PM
He had a very good DC in Philly. Jim Johnson was one of the best.
Johnson's sickness and untimely passing is what actually predicated the end of Reid in Philly, IMO. McDermott stepped in and did not do well. And Reid, in one of the most bizarre personnel moves in ages, essentially replaced Jim Johnson with Juan Castillo...the OL coach...on a team 2 years removed from the NFCC and who had just won 11 games in back to back years. One of my roommates at the time was a huge Eagles fan and was actually speechless.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 12, 2024, 06:47:27 AM
Lombardi was the best ever.
His downfall was he wasn't a great personnel guy. Look up Jack Vainisi to see who the hero was in that regard.
Lombardi's style would never work today.
Brother Semantics:
Right on! Jack Vainisi built that team, top to bottom. Lombardi worked to get people like Willie Wood, Willie Davis, Henry Jordan and Fuzzy Thurston, but the core of the team came through Vainisi and high draft choices brought about by the Packers general suckiness in the 1950s. Worth reading "When Pride Still Mattered" to see Vainisi's role.
The key on-the-field component was Bart Starr and he was a Lombardi creation. Starr was a 17th round draft choice. He was smart and tougher than nails. Lombardi made him among the best ever. In my view, Tom Brady and Bart Starr were the two best, ever. Starr was an incredibly decent human being to boot.
My choices for best coach ever.
Coach Lombardi
Don Shula
Bill Belichick
Tom Landry
Chuck Noll
Bill Walsh
Joe Gibbs
Bud Grant
Hank Stram
Jim Lee Howell
(spaces are deliberate)
George Halas
Mike Ditka
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 17, 2024, 01:15:38 PM
Brother Semantics:
Right on! Jack Vainisi built that team, top to bottom. Lombardi worked to get people like Willie Wood, Willie Davis, Henry Jordan and Fuzzy Thurston, but the core of the team came through Vainisi and high draft choices brought about by the Packers general suckiness in the 1950s. Worth reading "When Pride Still Mattered" to see Vainisi's role.
The key on-the-field component was Bart Starr and he was a Lombardi creation. Starr was a 17th round draft choice. He was smart and tougher than nails. Lombardi made him among the best ever. In my view, Tom Brady and Bart Starr were the two best, ever. Starr was an incredibly decent human being to boot.
My choices for best coach ever.
Coach Lombardi
Don Shula
Bill Belichick
Tom Landry
Chuck Noll
Bill Walsh
Joe Gibbs
Bud Grant
Hank Stram
Jim Lee Howell
The Vainisi Brothers had quite the legacy. Bud Grant in the Top 8?Good lord.
(space left to replicate the air between your ears)
I like this list.
https://athlonsports.com/nfl/25-greatest-head-coaches-nfl-history
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 17, 2024, 01:15:38 PM
Brother Semantics:
Right on! Jack Vainisi built that team, top to bottom. Lombardi worked to get people like Willie Wood, Willie Davis, Henry Jordan and Fuzzy Thurston, but the core of the team came through Vainisi and high draft choices brought about by the Packers general suckiness in the 1950s. Worth reading "When Pride Still Mattered" to see Vainisi's role.
The key on-the-field component was Bart Starr and he was a Lombardi creation. Starr was a 17th round draft choice. He was smart and tougher than nails. Lombardi made him among the best ever. In my view, Tom Brady and Bart Starr were the two best, ever. Starr was an incredibly decent human being to boot.
My choices for best coach ever.
Coach Lombardi
Don Shula
Bill Belichick
Tom Landry
Chuck Noll
Bill Walsh
Joe Gibbs
Bud Grant
Hank Stram
Jim Lee Howell
(spaces are deliberate)
George Halas
Mike Ditka
Parcells, Reed, and John Harbaugh need to replace the last three on the list.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 17, 2024, 01:56:42 PM
I like this list.
https://athlonsports.com/nfl/25-greatest-head-coaches-nfl-history
Agreed. Good list. I often forget how good Madden was.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 17, 2024, 02:26:59 PM
Agreed. Good list. I often forget how good Madden was.
Always a jolt to be reminded that Madden was just 42 when he retired from coaching.