I watched Tony Miller as a kid but didn't see the players of the 60's, 70's. and 80's.
I will defer to the experts but do we agree with Miller and Diener in the top 5? Is Worthern there? I know times have changed but who were our best conductors at the 1?
Tony Miller was the first person I thought of when I saw the title of the thread. Pure PG through and through. A distributor. I think he may have even been a QB in high school; QBs often times make strong point guards as they both require strong field/court vision and anticipation.
I would definitely start with Tony Miller, Lloyd Walton and Sam Worthen.
I've watched Worthen a bit on video. I know there have been a plethora of cool MU players but I would have to think he's 1st team. He seemed to be in total control and saw the floor quite well.
Forget the best one, Dean Menninger, the dream.
Quote from: BCHoopster on April 12, 2021, 10:40:41 PM
Forget the best one, Dean Menninger, the dream.
Yep. I totally forgot about Dean. Doh!
But was Dean a pure PG? I know he may be the MU goat at the 1 but wasn't he more of a scorer? Clearly he had jets off the bounce and that's very important regardless of overall assist totals.
Pure pg? Diener. Hands down
nm
Travis...by a lot.
Dwayne Wade should be eligible for this discussion. Don't forget Doc Rivers either.
Quote from: MuggsyB on April 12, 2021, 10:46:21 PM
But was Dean a pure PG? I know he may be the MU goat at the 1 but wasn't he more of a scorer? Clearly he had jets off the bounce and that's very important regardless of overall assist totals.
Al played a different game back then, once MU got up by 10, with no thirty second clock, Dean had the ball in his hands all the time and barely turned it over. One of the best dribblers of all time, decent passer. So quick.
Quote from: BCHoopster on April 12, 2021, 10:55:33 PM
Al played a different game back then, once MU got up by 10, with no thirty second clock, Dean had the ball in his hands all the time and barely turned it over. One of the best dribblers of all time, decent passer. So quick.
Fair point. And this is so, so, important. It's part of many reasons I respect Muggsy so much. He couldn't be pressed even in the hand checking era with far more physicality. It's the combination of quicks, handles, and poise that we should all admire. A more modern example would be Peyton Siva when he played at L'Ville. He wasn't much of a shooter but you could just give him the ball down the stretch. I like guys that are under control and equipped with supreme quickness and handles.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 12, 2021, 10:50:45 PM
Travis...by a lot.
I love Travis, but as a "pure" PG I'd put Tony first. Travis was more of a scoring PG, Tony a floor general. The dude averaged almost 8 assists per game for his career, in KO's grinding system.
Travis could have played as an off guard, Tony could only be a PG.
Quote from: BCHoopster on April 12, 2021, 10:55:33 PM
Al played a different game back then, once MU got up by 10, with no thirty second clock, Dean had the ball in his hands all the time and barely turned it over. One of the best dribblers of all time, decent passer. So quick.
Yep. Dean was most definitely a PG. He scored a lot of points, but he also led the team in assists and had the ball in his hands when it mattered.
If we are going to limit the definition of "pure PG" to those guys who got a lot of assists but didn't score much, the list would start and end with Tony Miller.
Hutch?
Quote from: jaygall31 on April 12, 2021, 11:25:11 PM
Hutch?
Hutch was awesome, but I view him more as a shooting guard who was forced to play the point. Kind of like Markus.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on April 12, 2021, 11:19:11 PM
I love Travis, but as a "pure" PG I'd put Tony first. Travis was more of a scoring PG, Tony a floor general. The dude averaged almost 8 assists per game for his career, in KO's grinding system.
Travis could have played as an off guard, Tony could only be a PG.
Travis was 4th in assist rate his junior year and 1st in the country his senior year.
Travis's Senior year pre injury is so underrated, because the rest of the team was rough, minus steve.
Lloyd Walton was like Tony Miller as well. Set the offense up, got it going. Lloyd might have been the best if Al did not walk the ball up the court. The 76 team would be fun to watch in this era. Butch, Lloyd, Earl, Bo and Whitehead. All made the show.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on April 12, 2021, 11:19:11 PM
I love Travis, but as a "pure" PG I'd put Tony first. Travis was more of a scoring PG, Tony a floor general. The dude averaged almost 8 assists per game for his career, in KO's grinding system.
Travis could have played as an off guard, Tony could only be a PG.
Travis was a modern pg before the modern-day pg.
Anthony Candelino. The only MU starting PG who could go to the rec center and get torched by at least 15 different guys.
Quote from: jfp61 on April 12, 2021, 11:29:50 PM
Travis was 4th in assist rate his junior year and 1st in the country his senior year.
Travis's Senior year pre injury is so underrated, because the rest of the team was rough, minus steve.
I've never understood why some people refuse to label someone a "pure PG" if they score too much. That doesn't make any sense to me.
Yeah a "floor general" is nice. But one that can score is even better.
Quote from: BCHoopster on April 12, 2021, 10:40:41 PM
Forget the best one, Dean Menninger, the dream.
By a country mile.
Quote from: BCHoopster on April 12, 2021, 10:40:41 PM
Forget the best one, Dean Menninger, the dream.
End of thread, aina?
Doc and BC,
Pretty big miss on the point PG's ever.
To summarize - Top 5 pure PGs since the 1960s: (chronological)
Meminger
Walton
Worthen
Miller
Diener
Quote from: BrewCity83 on April 13, 2021, 08:52:41 AM
To summarize - Top 5 pure PGs since the 1960s: (chronological)
Meminger
Walton
Worthen
Miller
Diener
Yep.
I agree with the list.
Having said that, if we're talking pure point guards I gotta give Mo Aker a shoutout. He was huge for 2008-2010 teams.
Plus TBT. I bet if you looked at it he'd lead the TBT team in total minutes played since they started
Quote from: swoopem on April 13, 2021, 09:15:23 AM
I agree with the list.
Having said that, if we're talking pure point guards I gotta give Mo Aker a shoutout. He was huge for 2008-2010 teams.
Plus TBT. I bet if you looked at it he'd lead the TBT team in total minutes played since they started
Agree. His decision to return was critical to us making the dance win 09-10, after the Amigos graduated.
Looking at the stats for that team, I also noticed something that seems pretty unusual - we had
five guys who averaged 2.0 or more assists per game. Acker led the way with 3.7, but Cubillan, DJO, Buycks and JFB also averaged 2.0 or more.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 13, 2021, 10:07:29 AM
Agree. His decision to return was critical to us making the dance win 09-10, after the Amigos graduated.
Looking at the stats for that team, I also noticed something that seems pretty unusual - we had five guys who averaged 2.0 or more assists per game. Acker led the way with 3.7, but Cubillan, DJO, Buycks and JFB also averaged 2.0 or more.
I think it's because that team was so efficient that no matter who you passed to they were likely to score.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 13, 2021, 10:07:29 AM
Agree. His decision to return was critical to us making the dance win 09-10, after the Amigos graduated.
Looking at the stats for that team, I also noticed something that seems pretty unusual - we had five guys who averaged 2.0 or more assists per game. Acker led the way with 3.7, but Cubillan, DJO, Buycks and JFB also averaged 2.0 or more.
Getting that team to the tournament was Buzz's best coaching job. Totally changed his system to accommodate a smaller, less athletic team, and still won with them. I think most Marquette fans would've been happy with the NIT that year and he earned a 6-seed. Really impressive.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on April 13, 2021, 10:11:53 AM
I think it's because that team was so efficient that no matter who you passed to they were likely to score.
Yep. Maybe the most balanced MU team ever. Everyone was a good ball handler, passer and shooter.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 13, 2021, 10:15:25 AM
Getting that team to the tournament was Buzz's best coaching job. Totally changed his system to accommodate a smaller, less athletic team, and still won with them. I think most Marquette fans would've been happy with the NIT that year and he earned a 6-seed. Really impressive.
Totally agree.
Quote from: Goose on April 13, 2021, 08:14:01 AM
Doc and BC,
Pretty big miss on the point PG's ever.
Dean the Dream shot 46% and dished out 3.4 dimes per game. Travis had a eFg% of .532 with 5 dimes per game. Travis with a Final 4. Different eras I know.
I always felt those Dean teams fell just short of their potential (Vesties, feel free to skewer me). Lots of reasons for that (Al mad at NCAAs, refs, seeding, internal bickering) but glad to hear your evidence. No question Dean was a great one but MU has only retired one PG's number and I am not sure that was deserved.
Now, defensively, it's not close in Dean's favor over Travis but we are talking PG offense (I think).
Quote from: swoopem on April 13, 2021, 09:15:23 AM
I agree with the list.
Having said that, if we're talking pure point guards I gotta give Mo Aker a shoutout. He was huge for 2008-2010 teams.
Plus TBT. I bet if you looked at it he'd lead the TBT team in total minutes played since they started
Not sure how you mention Mo Acker and not Dominic James, who he backed up (and was obviously not as good as when he did).
4.9 apg over his career, great ballhandler, tremendous ball hawk on D.
Maybe my username is a giveaway but Diener is #1 if you include his TBT resume as well ;D
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 13, 2021, 10:51:45 AM
Dean the Dream shot 46% and dished out 3.4 dimes per game. Travis had a eFg% of .532 with 5 dimes per game. Travis with a Final 4. Different eras I know.
I always felt those Dean teams fell just short of their potential (Vesties, feel free to skewer me). Lots of reasons for that (Al mad at NCAAs, refs, seeding, internal bickering) but glad to hear your evidence. No question Dean was a great one but MU has only retired one PG's number and I am not sure that was deserved.
Now, defensively, it's not close in Dean's favor over Travis but we are talking PG offense (I think).
You know you can't say that on this board. Every Al player is 100x the basketball that every player before or after was except for Wade.
Diener was a dime-a-dozen point guard.
Everyone should keep in mind how much talent DJ has as a lead guard. He's certainly not a pure PG, but would improve tremendously with better decision making, and axing the yo-yp lateral dribbling. He's a good passer but just needs to be under better control.
Galway
Diener would be in top five all time PG's and pretty high on the list.
The Dream, Lucky Lloyd, Sudden Sam, Boylan, Doc, Mandy J, Travis
Quote from: Goose on April 13, 2021, 11:19:31 AM
Galway
Diener would be in top five all time PG's and pretty high on the list.
Was just being facetious
Tony Miller has over 300 more career assists than the guy in second place. That's what a pure PG does.
Quote from: Goose on April 13, 2021, 11:19:31 AM
Galway
Diener would be in top five all time PG's and pretty high on the list.
Goose
Sam Worthen was probably the best PG to ever lace 'em up at Marquette. He looked damn fine in that sheepskin, too, I might add
Nice to see Mandy Johnson get a mention. Definitely top 5, especially if you factor in his defense.
Quote from: swoopem on April 13, 2021, 09:15:23 AM
I agree with the list.
Having said that, if we're talking pure point guards I gotta give Mo Aker a shoutout. He was huge for 2008-2010 teams.
Plus TBT. I bet if you looked at it he'd lead the TBT team in total minutes played since they started
If you think Acker was better than Dom James, I don't know what to say.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 13, 2021, 08:08:07 AM
End of thread, aina?
Doc,
Love The Dream but I think Worthen was sublimely brilliant.
They wonder how much greater the Mick would have been had he played without a season-long hangover. I have to think Worthen and Toone would have been All-World if they weren't catatonic every game.
keefe
Worthen was pretty damn good.
Quote from: PJDunn on April 13, 2021, 11:55:43 AM
Nice to see Mandy Johnson get a mention. Definitely top 5, especially if you factor in his defense.
I put MJ on the list because he was a phenomenal talent. Put him on one of Al's teams and he would have been brilliant.
Quote from: Jockey on April 13, 2021, 11:56:23 AM
If you think Acker was better than Dom James, I don't know what to say.
A) I didn't say that
B) I thought we were talking "pure point guards". I wouldn't call Dom a pure point guard. He was awesome and much better than Mo but I don't think he falls in the pure point guard category
Quote from: swoopem on April 13, 2021, 12:03:54 PM
A) I didn't say that
B) I thought we were talking "pure point guards". I wouldn't call Dom a pure point guard. He was awesome and much better than Mo but I don't think he falls in the pure point guard category
Huh??
Very surprising that I have not seen a single mention of Tony Smith.
Quote from: swoopem on April 13, 2021, 12:03:54 PM
A) I didn't say that
B) I thought we were talking "pure point guards". I wouldn't call Dom a pure point guard. He was awesome and much better than Mo but I don't think he falls in the pure point guard category
You need to define for me why Dom isn't a "pure point guard" but Travis is. Because this is starting not to make much sense to me.
Quote from: Jockey on April 13, 2021, 12:16:27 PM
Very surprising that I have not seen a single mention of Tony Smith.
Maybe if he had a semi decent teammate and/or coach we'd see how he'd actually stack up but the lack of team success probably drags him down
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 13, 2021, 12:19:15 PM
You need to define for me why Dom isn't a "pure point guard" but Travis is. Because this is starting not to make much sense to me.
Yeah...I'm not sure what other position Dom could occupy. He sure as hell wasn't a shooting guard. So are we slotting him into the 3 or 4?
Quote from: swoopem on April 13, 2021, 12:03:54 PM
A) I didn't say that
B) I thought we were talking "pure point guards". I wouldn't call Dom a pure point guard. He was awesome and much better than Mo but I don't think he falls in the pure point guard category
James was a pure PG. According to T rank, James had an assist rate of 29.8% and TO rate of 16.6% as a junior and senior (earlier years not available). Those are very good PG numbers.
I do recall a time when Crean tried to turn James into a SG but he never thrived as a primary scorer. Much better facilitator and complementary scorer.
The thread is titled "pure point guard". I didn't make the thread. Of course Dom was a point guard, but to me he was always a score first point guard. Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure there'll be a bunch of numbers and stats to say otherwise but to me, he was a score first point guard.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on April 13, 2021, 12:25:06 PM
James was a pure PG. According to T rank, James had an assist rate of 29.8% and TO rate of 16.6% as a junior and senior (earlier years not available). Those are very good PG numbers.
I do recall a time when Crean tried to turn James into a SG but he never thrived as a primary scorer. Much better facilitator and complementary scorer.
You posted this while I was typing my other post. I knew there'd be some numbers to say otherwise
Quote from: Galway Eagle on April 13, 2021, 12:21:56 PM
Maybe if he had a semi decent teammate and/or coach we'd see how he'd actually stack up but the lack of team success probably drags him down
Yeah, I think that may be the case, but we are talking PGs, not teams.
Quote from: swoopem on April 13, 2021, 12:27:47 PM
The thread is titled "pure point guard". I didn't make the thread. Of course Dom was a point guard, but to me he was always a score first point guard. Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure there'll be a bunch of numbers and stats to say otherwise but to me, he was a score first point guard.
Maybe his freshman and sophomore years.
His senior year, he was fourth on the team in per game FG, FGA and points. And lead the team in assists.
He was a point guard.
DJames makes my top five PG list.
Quote from: Goose on April 13, 2021, 01:19:53 PM
DJames makes my top five PG list.
I think Dom James wakes up every morning and curses Too Tanned Tommy. Crean cost that kid millions.
Quote from: Goose on April 13, 2021, 01:19:53 PM
DJames makes my top five PG list.
DJames, Jim Boylan, Dean Meminger, Travis Diener,
Marcus Jackson
lawdog77
Interesting. I do not think Marcus Jackson would make many all time PG lists, but what the hell do I know?
Quote from: keefe on April 13, 2021, 11:59:30 AM
I put MJ on the list because he was a phenomenal talent. Put him on one of Al's teams and he would have been brilliant.
Loved watching Mandy play. Absolute bulldog on defense.
Mandy could not dribble to save his life but sure could play D. Had a lot of classes with Mandy and enjoyed hanging with him.
Quote from: Goose on April 13, 2021, 03:57:17 PM
Mandy could not dribble to save his life but sure could play D. Had a lot of classes with Mandy and enjoyed hanging with him.
Cain dribble
Quote from: Goose on April 13, 2021, 03:57:17 PM
Mandy could not dribble to save his life but sure could play D. Had a lot of classes with Mandy and enjoyed hanging with him.
You're not as old as I thought you were.
tower
Gee, thanks!
Quote from: tower912 on April 13, 2021, 05:09:50 PM
You're not as old as I thought you were.
He isn't, but I'm older than him and feel younger it seems.
Quote from: Goose on April 13, 2021, 03:57:17 PM
Mandy could not dribble to save his life but sure could play D. Had a lot of classes with Mandy and enjoyed hanging with him.
Mandy was as all right handed with his dribble and Haanif was all left handed.
Meminger ... Walton ... Worthen ... Miller ... Diener ... James
That's 6, and that's fine with me. Loved 'em all.
The "pure" PG discussion is kind of silly. Not sure why a "pure" PG can't score, too.
Quote from: tower912 on April 13, 2021, 05:09:50 PM
You're not as old as I thought you were.
Mandy wuz der befour me, hey?
Quote from: MU82 on April 13, 2021, 06:41:22 PM
Meminger ... Walton ... Worthen ... Miller ... Diener ... James
That's 6, and that's fine with me. Loved 'em all.
The "pure" PG discussion is kind of silly. Not sure why a "pure" PG can't score, too.
Tony Smith was good enough to play in the NBA for 9 years. I think Meminger and Worthen were clearly the 2 best. I'd put Smith 3rd. Then Miller and Diener in some order for 4th and 5th.
Allie McGuire.
Discuss.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on April 12, 2021, 11:19:11 PM
I love Travis, but as a "pure" PG I'd put Tony first. Travis was more of a scoring PG, Tony a floor general. The dude averaged almost 8 assists per game for his career, in KO's grinding system.
Travis could have played as an off guard, Tony could only be a PG.
Travis made the NBA and Miller did not.
Meminger and Walton made the NBA and Worthen did not.
Best freshmen point guard was Dominic James, but he seemed to regress after his freshmen year.
Quote from: MU82 on April 13, 2021, 06:41:22 PM
Meminger ... Walton ... Worthen ... Miller ... Diener ... James
That's 6, and that's fine with me. Loved 'em all.
The "pure" PG discussion is kind of silly. Not sure why a "pure" PG can't score, too.
My favorite PG was Blanton Simmons. Loved his cross over dribble.
Quote from: MU82 on April 13, 2021, 09:53:37 PM
Not one of the top 5. Or 6.
Also more of a shooter than a PG.
I was a season ticket in 76' and ' 77 ( and before and after) and Dean was the greatest.Especially at the end of the game, whoever was fouled, Al would send Dean to the line, and he rarely missed. A great player who met a tragic end. Sad.
Newsdreams
If you feel younger than me, you have a great life. Like many out there, I truly believe that I am still twenty years younger than my actual age. I have little intention of ever acting, and hopefully not looking, my age.
Quote from: bilsu on April 13, 2021, 08:58:14 PM
Travis made the NBA and Miller did not.
Meminger and Walton made the NBA and Worthen did not.
Best freshmen point guard was Dominic James, but he seemed to regress after his freshmen year.
Worthen played for two seasons in the NBA, albeit as a bit player.
Quote from: harryp on April 14, 2021, 12:11:00 AM
I was a season ticket in 76' and ' 77 ( and before and after) and Dean was the greatest.Especially at the end of the game, whoever was fouled, Al would send Dean to the line, and he rarely missed. A great player who met a tragic end. Sad.
Are you thinking of Butch Lee in '76 and '77? Butch was a 85% career free throw shooter.
Dean played in '68-'71 and was a .647% free throw shooter. So, he missed over a third of his free throws. Is free throw % one of the criteria for a great PG? JayBee is circling.
That said, Dean was a great player at the start of Al's great run. He did indeed have a tragic end. Certainly a top 5 MU PG.
Let's try this. Best "pure PG" by coach as defined by their best year as PG (versus who recruited them). Combo guards don't qualify.
Here are mine:
Al: Dean
Hank: Sam the Sham
Rick: Mandy
Piano: Pop Sims
KO: Tony Miller
Deane O: Hutch
Crean: Diener
Buzz: Dom, senior year
Wojo: Senior year Rowsey
Quote from: harryp on April 14, 2021, 12:11:00 AM
I was a season ticket in 76' and ' 77 ( and before and after) and Dean was the greatest.Especially at the end of the game, whoever was fouled, Al would send Dean to the line, and he rarely missed. A great player who met a tragic end. Sad.
What does "whoever was fouled, Al would send Dean to the line" mean?
I wasn't around back then but I highly doubt that if Chones was fouled Dean was able to shoot the free throws???
Quote from: lawdog77 on April 13, 2021, 02:41:29 PM
Marcus Jackson
F#cking great, man!
(https://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/11-tom-crean-funny-face.gif)
Quote from: Goose on April 13, 2021, 03:57:17 PM
Mandy could not dribble to save his life but sure could play D. Had a lot of classes with Mandy and enjoyed hanging with him.
Yes, but did you drink with him?
keefe
Mandy preferred other methods to relax back in the day.
Quote from: Herman Cain on April 13, 2021, 08:50:52 PM
Allie McGuire.
Discuss.
As Al famously replied when asked why he was starting Allie, "Because I sleep with his mother."
A name not yet mentioned that should be is Marcus Washington. Wash was the captain of the 74 National Championship game team that lost to NC State which had David Thomson, Burleson, Towe.
He was also involved in one of the best Al stories. He and Delsman got into it at a practice and when Al tried to break it up Wash stepped aside but Delsman remained fired up and ended up brawling with Al.
Quote from: Goose on April 14, 2021, 11:58:22 AM
keefe
Mandy preferred other methods to relax back in the day.
He was from the Oliver Lee School of Relaxation Theory?
Quote from: Goose on April 14, 2021, 03:55:36 AM
Newsdreams
If you feel younger than me, you have a great life. Like many out there, I truly believe that I am still twenty years younger than my actual age. I have little intention of ever acting, and hopefully not looking, my age.
Excellent that is the way....
back in the day game goals/targets were set for the players. One of Mandy's was holding the opposing PG to more than 5 points below his scoring average.
The player that achieved the most was allowed to choose the restaurant for the weekly team meal.
And when Mandy won he always picked Red Lobster.
Must have been viewed as the go to spot in Jersey City.
Quote from: oldwarrior81 on April 14, 2021, 12:16:03 PM
Red Lobster.
I just learned of a tragic Covid Casualty: No Name's in Old Seaport, Boston.
Their lobster roll was sublime.