It appears as if Porter Moser is Plan A and has a lot of popular support. Including endorsements from many on this Message Board 8-)
What happens if Loyola makes another Final Four run, Porter has a change of heart, and decides he doesn't want to leave Loyola after all. Or Notre Dame fires Brey and suddenly that job is open?
Who is our Best Plan B?
Give me Gates please in that scenario
isn't this the 'rank your candidates' thread but with contraception?
For me its:
- condom
- the pill
- vasectomy
- plan B
.
.
.
.
.
- abstinence
Or if Indiana makes a run at Moser.
Nothing is certain until the contract is signed and the house purchased.
Quote from: Herman Cain on March 25, 2021, 10:41:09 AM
It appears as if Porter Moser is Plan A and has a lot of popular support. Including endorsements from many on this Message Board 8-)
What happens if Loyola makes another Final Four run, Porter has a change of heart, and decides he doesn't want to leave Loyola after all. Or Notre Dame fires Brey and suddenly that job is open?
Who is our Best Plan B?
Not to worry. Marquette is Moser's muse.
BF'ed at dat point, aina?
I would guess Shaka, Gates, or Smith based on some posts here. There's a real chance Shaka isn't coaching Texas next year even if we hire Moser.
If Gates goes to DePaul and Smith to Utah, I'd be pretty worried. But I don't think we get to that point. It doesn't seem either are the top candidate.
Also, I feel Moser is only going to leave for MU. It's close to Chicago and he's lived in Milwaukee before. I think coaching at a school that meant so much to Majerus is key too.
Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on March 25, 2021, 10:42:18 AM
Give me Gates please in that scenario
Same.
Honestly, I think either one would be great.
Crapshoot, aina?
There are many strong, successful and experienced coaches that would be available after Moser (and, for sake of discussion, Gates, Smart, Smith).
I am going to go with a hot-take, but I am predicting the next head coach a wild card/left field candidate. Someone we don't know about yet. Perhaps a P6 head coach that feels he has capped out at his current stop. Just a hunch, no inside knowledge. Right now, it could very well be Moser. Wouldn't be shocked if the search pivots after the weekend, if necessary.
The silence is a great thing. Having a competant AD and President in 2021 has already made this search much more efficient, professional and organized.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 25, 2021, 11:52:52 AM
There are many strong, successful and experienced coaches that would be available after Moser (and, for sake of discussion, Gates, Smart, Smith).
I am going to go with a hot-take, but I am predicting the next head coach a wild card/left field candidate. Someone we don't know about yet. Perhaps a P6 head coach that feels he has capped out at his current stop. Just a hunch, no inside knowledge. Right now, it could very well be Moser. Wouldn't be shocked if the search pivots after the weekend, if necessary.
The silence is a great thing. Having a competant AD and President in 2021 has already made this search much more efficient, professional and organized.
Scholl: Where do we find the money as the rich donors are tapped out.
Lovell: Cracked Sidewalks, Paint Touches and Anonymous Eagle; they got us into this mess!
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 25, 2021, 12:04:27 PM
Scholl: Where do we find the money as the rich donors are tapped out.
Lovell: Cracked Sidewalks, Paint Touches and Anonymous Eagle; they got us into this mess!
;D
If Gates and Smith really have already interviewed than there's your Plan b and c. I don't think mu is going be Shakas safety net.
Not as excited about Moser as the rest of this Board apparently is. Moser is the flavor of the day and while he has done well in the MVC, a steady died of Jay Wright and the Big East is something totally different than winning twice against MVC caliber teams.
I know only what I read but of the mentioned candidates to date, I really like Gates. Has shown he can both recruit on our level and can coach. I'm a believer on him. There are others as good but Gates hits the right buttons for us to be good.
Gary Waters had almost the same record at csu as Gates by year 2. I like him but I don't like the odds of that gamble, though it could pay off big.
I am about 85% sure that if even tries to "buy" Moser at $3+......He would stay away from that dumpster fire.....(he is not Crean.....and we all see what has happened to the last 2 Indiana "buys")
It is a sure fire place where coaches go to die.....
He likes "happy" and if he wants to leave......
He would be looking for the "right" fit.....
Indiana checks no boxes that I believe Moser would value.....
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 25, 2021, 12:22:05 PM
Not as excited about Moser as the rest of this Board apparently is. Moser is the flavor of the day and while he has done well in the MVC, a steady died of Jay Wright and the Big East is something totally different than winning twice against MVC caliber teams.
I know only what I read but of the mentioned candidates to date, I really like Gates. Has shown he can both recruit on our level and can coach. I'm a believer on him. There are others as good but Gates hits the right buttons for us to be good.
Excellent points. What would you say about hiring an America East head coach from Hofstra? Had three straight losing seasons. Finished below 7th twice, and only came in first place twice. Zero NCAAT wins. Do you think he would be able to compete in the Big East? Different animal entirely.
BTW, that coach was Jay Wright before getting hired at Villanova.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 25, 2021, 12:34:21 PM
Excellent points. What would you say about hiring an America East head coach from Hofstra? Had three straight losing seasons. Finished below 7th twice, and only came in first place twice. Zero NCAAT wins. Do you think he would be able to compete in the Big East? Different animal entirely.
BTW, that coach was Jay Wright before getting hired at Villanova.
Then that would make Porter's record look like John Wooden compared to Jay Wright. Can it convert, no one knows. But if someone can win in the tourney against p6 competition and go to a f4 and s16 at Loyola, come on now that's impressive
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 25, 2021, 12:34:21 PM
Excellent points. What would you say about hiring an America East head coach from Hofstra? Had three straight losing seasons. Finished below 7th twice, and only came in first place twice. Zero NCAAT wins. Do you think he would be able to compete in the Big East? Different animal entirely.
BTW, that coach was Jay Wright before getting hired at Villanova.
The difference being that Jay Wright took over a worse program and had a steady upward trajectory for 7 straight seasons. Moser took over a better (but not good) program and has ultimately has ended up going way up...but it was up, down, up down, up down, to get there. He belongs in the conversation, but that inconsistency makes me nervous.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 25, 2021, 12:51:03 PM
The difference being that Jay Wright took over a worse program and had a steady upward trajectory for 7 straight seasons. Moser took over a better (but not good) program and has ultimately has ended up going way up...but it was up, down, up down, up down, to get there. He belongs in the conversation, but that inconsistency makes me nervous.
I have zero concerns about Moser's tenure at Loyola. In is undeniable that he has elevated Loyola into a high-major basketball program (when it was mid-major when he started). Last four years have had 1st or 2nd place finishes, a Final Four and (at least) a Sweet 16 to boot. We can criticize earlier years at Loyola all we want, but then we should be critical of Gates' first year (11-21), Shaka's second year at Texas (11-22), etc. IMO, those all cancel each other out, resume wise. Moser has taken the least and made it, consistently, the best.
What I would say is an absolute knock against Moser is not his tenure at Loyola, but rather his tenure at ISU. He was fine at UA-Little Rock. He was not good at ISU. Jankovich, his successor, did more in his four years than Moser did in his. That, to me, is the fascinating "mark" on his resume. Would enjoy hearing him speak on his experiences there, how it shaped him as a head coach, and what let him to change at SLU and Loyola.
Ultimately, I would like a coach that has won at multiple places. Moser won at UA-Little Rock and Loyola; he did not win at Illinois State. I think perhaps that is why he spoke so highly of Majerus, as perhaps it was him who really helped transformed him as a head coach and allowed him to be better. That, among many other reasons, is why I think it would be a great story for Moser to be the guy. It would be full circle.
We will see though. I agree with the knocks on ISU tenure, I don't have any knocks on his Loyola tenure.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 25, 2021, 01:09:50 PM
I have zero concerns about Moser's tenure at Loyola. In is undeniable that he has elevated Loyola into a high-major basketball program (when it was mid-major when he started).
This is ridiculous. Gonzaga operates like a high major, but they are not one. Loyola neither operates nor is a high major. Success doesn't change your league affiliation and they aren't recruiting or getting national attention regularly like a high major. After their last Final Four run, they became sub-100 for 2 years. Against top-100 non-con competition, they went 1-9 between NCAA Tournament appearances. They're nothing like a high major.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 25, 2021, 01:20:11 PM
This is ridiculous. Gonzaga operates like a high major, but they are not one. Loyola neither operates nor is a high major. Success doesn't change your league affiliation and they aren't recruiting or getting national attention regularly like a high major. After their last Final Four run, they became sub-100 for 2 years. Against top-100 non-con competition, they went 1-9 between NCAA Tournament appearances. They're nothing like a high major.
Agree. Loyola has had incredible success given their league affiliation, but they are still a mid-major program.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 25, 2021, 01:09:50 PM
We can criticize earlier years at Loyola all we want,
I'm not that worried about his early years at Loyola. I'm worried about the two before this one. He raised expectations with his Final Four run and the next two years were farts. Yes, yes, they finished top two in the MVC. That tells me more about the MVC those years than it does about Loyola.
He's back now and better than the Final Four year. That earns him a spot in the conversation. But the two year stumble between great seasons is concerning to me.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 25, 2021, 11:52:52 AM
There are many strong, successful and experienced coaches that would be available after Moser (and, for sake of discussion, Gates, Smart, Smith).
I am going to go with a hot-take, but I am predicting the next head coach a wild card/left field candidate. Someone we don't know about yet. Perhaps a P6 head coach that feels he has capped out at his current stop. Just a hunch, no inside knowledge. Right now, it could very well be Moser. Wouldn't be shocked if the search pivots after the weekend, if necessary.
The silence is a great thing. Having a competant AD and President in 2021 has already made this search much more efficient, professional and organized.
Couldn't agree more, I have that same sense. Wojo at the time wasn't on anyone's radar but was well received once announced.
Quote from: naginiF on March 25, 2021, 10:48:03 AM
isn't this the 'rank your candidates' thread but with contraception?
For me its:
- condom
- the pill
- vasectomy
- plan B
.
.
.
.
.
- abstinence
Plan B bailed me out a few times at MU.
Quote from: cheese ball chaser on March 25, 2021, 01:31:23 PM
Couldn't agree more, I have that same sense. Wojo at the time wasn't on anyone's radar but was well received once announced.
That is very much up for debate, and was not the case here on scoop.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=43397.0
Check out the posts from that period of time
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?board=2.11800
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 25, 2021, 01:29:54 PM
I'm not that worried about his early years at Loyola. I'm worried about the two before this one. He raised expectations with his Final Four run and the next two years were farts. Yes, yes, they finished top two in the MVC. That tells me more about the MVC those years than it does about Loyola.
He's back now and better than the Final Four year. That earns him a spot in the conversation. But the two year stumble between great seasons is concerning to me.
Whatever happened to your whole "down year" and "up year" thing you always used to defend Wojo? That Loyola FF team started three seniors and two juniors. They lost a lot of production the next two years. Definitely due for a "down year" in your book, especially considering the FF seemingly came out of nowhere and Moser would need some time to build off that success. Or does that line of thinking only apply to Wojo? Christ, somehow, every freaking Wojo season was somehow justified as a "down year" in your book.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 25, 2021, 01:29:54 PM
I'm not that worried about his early years at Loyola. I'm worried about the two before this one. He raised expectations with his Final Four run and the next two years were farts. Yes, yes, they finished top two in the MVC. That tells me more about the MVC those years than it does about Loyola.
He's back now and better than the Final Four year. That earns him a spot in the conversation. But the two year stumble between great seasons is concerning to me.
Similarly, Smart's six year stumble at Texas is concerning to me. I've read your explanations (and others) that provide some justification for it and explain why he is not Wojo. I don't disagree. But, it's concerning.
There is no ideal candidate out there. Moser is concerning because he hasn't recruited high major talent and because you view him as inconsistent. Smart is concerning because even with UT's resources he hasn't gotten it done. Gates is concerning because he hasn't been a head coach for long.
Although it's not a deciding factor, I do have to say I'd rather hire a coach where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth at his old school because of his departure than a coach where everyone at his old school is thanking the heavens that you took him off their hands. I want MU to break LUC (or CSU) fans' hearts, not make UT fans celebrate.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 25, 2021, 01:46:35 PM
Whatever happened to your whole "down year" and "up year" thing you always used to defend Wojo? That Loyola FF team started three seniors and two juniors. They lost a lot of production the next two years. Definitely due for a "down year" in your book, especially considering the FF seemingly came out of nowhere and Moser would need some time to build off that success. Or does that line of thinking only apply to Wojo? Christ, somehow, every freaking Wojo season was somehow justified as a "down year" in your book.
Still here. Loyola finished around 30 in KenPom the Final Four year. Preseason the year after they were ranked 66. They finished around 131. Drop was expected. Not a 100 point drop.
Wojo had three down years. Year 1, 4, and 7. You will never find a post of mine arguing otherwise but good try.
By the end of Wojo's last down year I was calling for him to be fired because he down year was too far down. There's still expectations to be met in a down year, it's not a get out of jail free card.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 25, 2021, 01:48:49 PM
Similarly, Smart's stumbling at Texas is concerning to me. I've read your explanations (and others) that provide some justification for it and explain why he is not Wojo. I don't disagree. But, it's concerning.
There is no ideal candidate out there. Moser is concerning because he hasn't recruited high major talent and because you view him as inconsistent. Smart is concerning because even with UT's resources he hasn't gotten it done. Gates is concerning because he hasn't been a head coach for long.
Although it's not a deciding factor, I do have to say I'd rather hire a coach where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth at his old school because of his departure than a coach where everyone at his old school is thanking the heavens that you took him off their hands. I want MU to break LUC fans' hearts, not make UT fans celebrate.
Texas is a miserable fanbase. More than Marquette. They want anything gone that isn't shiny and new. Big Pond, small pond and their fanbase reaction doesn't really matter to me.
If I am Scholl, I am looking first and foremost for a coach that plays in a style that attracts recruits here, has a strong personality that can get those recruits to commit, and demonstrated success as a head coach. That's the future of high-level college ball--a system that gets the kids excited.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 25, 2021, 01:48:49 PM
Similarly, Smart's six year stumble at Texas is concerning to me. I've read your explanations (and others) that provide some justification for it and explain why he is not Wojo. I don't disagree. But, it's concerning.
Oh absolutely. I want to be clear, Shaka would not be my pick based on what I know. Of the known candidates, I'm Team Craig Smith with Dennis Gates as a backup. But if the choice is Shaka/Moser, I'd personally go with Shaka.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 25, 2021, 01:51:48 PM
Still here. Loyola finished around 30 in KenPom the Final Four year. Preseason the year after they were ranked 66. They finished around 131. Drop was expected. Not a 100 point drop.
Wojo had three down years. Year 1, 4, and 7. You will never find a post of mine arguing otherwise but good try.
By the end of Wojo's last down year I was calling for him to be fired because he down year was too far down. There's still expectations to be met in a down year, it's not a get out of jail free card.
1) I am less interested in preseason expectations any year. Your results are your results.
2) We can cherry pick a lot of coaches that have had this. John Beilein and Michigan were a top 25 Pre-Season KenPom 2014-2015. They finished 74th.
Why not Mark Turgeon, he should be ahead of Moser frankly
A great coach that has won in the Big 12 and Big 10 and could be looking to benefit from a change of scenery. Great guy and devout Catholic with midwest roots so he's an excellent cultural fit as well
Quote from: Resilient on March 25, 2021, 02:12:50 PM
Why not Mark Turgeon, he should be ahead of Moser frankly
A great coach that has won in the Big 12 and Big 10 and could be looking to benefit from a change of scenery. Great guy and devout Catholic with midwest roots so he's an excellent cultural fit as well
He hasn't been on anyone's lists. A devout Catholic who starts fights, and isn't well liked.
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 25, 2021, 12:22:05 PM
Not as excited about Moser as the rest of this Board apparently is. Moser is the flavor of the day and while he has done well in the MVC, a steady died of Jay Wright and the Big East is something totally different than winning twice against MVC caliber teams.
I know only what I read but of the mentioned candidates to date, I really like Gates. Has shown he can both recruit on our level and can coach. I'm a believer on him. There are others as good but Gates hits the right buttons for us to be good.
This is where I am, too.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 25, 2021, 02:04:32 PM
1) I am less interested in preseason expectations any year. Your results are your results.
Of course. But it gives you a neutral baseline by which to judge a coach. It's one tool of many.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 25, 2021, 02:04:32 PM
2) We can cherry pick a lot of coaches that have had this. John Beilein and Michigan were a top 25 Pre-Season KenPom 2014-2015. They finished 74th.
Doing that to Beilein would be cherry picking as it is his worst underperformance by far and he only had two other seasons at Michigan (out of 12) where he underperformed expectations. With Moser? He's underperformed in 4/10 seasons and the year after his final four was not his worst underperformance. He's overperformed 5 times and met expectations once. He's very up/down. More than most coaches. He may regulate if elevated to a higher level but it still gives me pause.
*Disclaimer: I think Moser would be a solid hire, I just prefer others to him*
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 25, 2021, 02:28:05 PM
Of course. But it gives you a neutral baseline by which to judge a coach. It's one tool of many.
Doing that to Beilein would be cherry picking as it is his worst underperformance by far and he only had two other seasons at Michigan (out of 12) where he underperformed expectations. With Moser? He's underperformed in 4/10 seasons and the year after his final four was not his worst underperformance. He's overperformed 5 times and met expectations once. He's very up/down. More than most coaches. He may regulate if elevated to a higher level but it still gives me pause.
*Disclaimer: I think Moser would be a solid hire, I just prefer others to him*
The ups and downs are my concerns. No coach is perfect, but I'd rather we have one that has performed at a high level in a major conference and also plays a style of ball that can be sold to the level of recruits necessary to compete at that level. Moser would be fine, but a lot of stock is being put in just the postseason stuff.
In disclosure, I am in the Shaka/Gates camp (I think Smith won't leave so I am keeping him out).
Well apparently plan B is not Pat Kelsey, who is leaving Winthrop to go to.....THE College of Charlestown
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 25, 2021, 01:20:11 PM
This is ridiculous. Gonzaga operates like a high major, but they are not one. Loyola neither operates nor is a high major. Success doesn't change your league affiliation and they aren't recruiting or getting national attention regularly like a high major. After their last Final Four run, they became sub-100 for 2 years. Against top-100 non-con competition, they went 1-9 between NCAA Tournament appearances. They're nothing like a high major.
Respectfully, there are major, high-major conferences, mid-major and low-major conferences, and then there are also major, high-major, mid-major and low-major programs. Gonzaga may not be in high-major conference, but they have produced high-major results. Their conference affiliation does not shackle them from competing from #1 seeds or the possibility of competing for national championships.
Loyola is not in a major or high-major conference. However, they now have had more tournament success in the past four seasons than a majority of major/high-major programs have had. Similarly, Northwestern is in a major conference, but - historically - they are a low-major program. Take Cincinnati and Memphis; they are not in a major conference, but those two programs have more basketball history and success than many programs in major conferences. In additions, those jobs are more valuable towards winning at a higher level than, say (historically) a TCU, Rutgers, Washington State, Nebraska, etc.
Titles aside, Loyola is miles better today than when they were when Moser took over. That is certain.
Quote from: lessthannick11 on March 25, 2021, 02:50:01 PM
Well apparently plan B is not Pat Kelsey, who is leaving Winthrop to go to.....THE College of Charlestown
CoachingChanges gonna hate this
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 25, 2021, 01:29:54 PM
I'm not that worried about his early years at Loyola. I'm worried about the two before this one. He raised expectations with his Final Four run and the next two years were farts. Yes, yes, they finished top two in the MVC. That tells me more about the MVC those years than it does about Loyola.
He's back now and better than the Final Four year. That earns him a spot in the conversation. But the two year stumble between great seasons is concerning to me.
You are aware the 2018 team was loaded with seniors right? And that he wouldn't have had the recruiting bump leading into the immediate following season?
Quote from: lessthannick11 on March 25, 2021, 02:50:01 PM
Well apparently plan B is not Pat Kelsey, who is leaving Winthrop to go to.....THE College of Charlestown
Hm, actually thought Kelsey would get (or eventually go to) a bigger step up.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 25, 2021, 02:28:05 PM
Of course. But it gives you a neutral baseline by which to judge a coach. It's one tool of many.
Doing that to Beilein would be cherry picking as it is his worst underperformance by far and he only had two other seasons at Michigan (out of 12) where he underperformed expectations. With Moser? He's underperformed in 4/10 seasons and the year after his final four was not his worst underperformance. He's overperformed 5 times and met expectations once. He's very up/down. More than most coaches. He may regulate if elevated to a higher level but it still gives me pause.
*Disclaimer: I think Moser would be a solid hire, I just prefer others to him*
It's also of course much easier to win at Michigan than Loyola, which I'm sure you'd acknowledge.
I understand it as something to look at once in a while. It isn't something I would use or consider often or every time as a baseline. I think its something you value much more than me. For me it's more of how does Team A do this particular season. I mentioned it because many coaches are going to over-perform or underperform KenPom expectations some of the time. What matters most are results regardless of over or under performing. What are your results for a particular season? And what are your collective results?
KenPom
2012 SLU 14 VCU 46
2013 SLU 19 VCU 18
2014 SLU 35 VCU 25
League Finishes
2012 SLU 2nd VCU 2nd
2013 SLU 1st VCU 2nd
2014 VCU 1st VCU 2nd
*All finishes are A-10 except VCU played in Colonial 2012.
Moser recruited the bulk of those players for SLU before leaving for Loyola Chicago HC. VCU's coach (Shaka Smart) was a strong candidate for MUBB at the time after the 2014 season.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 25, 2021, 02:53:44 PM
CoachingChanges gonna hate this
What Coaching Changes won't tell you is the Sandy Hook families approached Pat Kelsey, not the other way around.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 25, 2021, 02:57:16 PM
What Coaching Changes won't tell you is the Sandy Hook families approached Pat Kelsey, not the other way around.
The account has some... strange... fixations/obsessions on certain individuals and other... specific... topics.
Which one of us uses it as a burner? ;D
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 25, 2021, 02:53:23 PM
Respectfully, there are major, high-major conferences, mid-major and low-major conferences, and then there are also major, high-major, mid-major and low-major programs.
Hard disagree. Those are conference designations. Gonzaga is a top-10 program in a mid-major conference. Those two are not conflicting statements.
And Loyola simply doesn't have the resources, exposure, or long-term consistency to be considered on par with high-majors or top-10 programs. No one would confuse Loyola with Gonzaga. Maybe in 15-20 years.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 25, 2021, 02:57:16 PM
What Coaching Changes won't tell you is the Sandy Hook families approached Pat Kelsey, not the other way around.
I'm aware, I wanted us to interview Pat
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 25, 2021, 02:55:15 PM
Hm, actually thought Kelsey would get (or eventually go to) a bigger step up.
I think this seems about right. He's had success, but the Big South is really bad. Add to that the hiring SNAFUs. CoachingChanges hammers the Sandy Hook, but Ive heard buzz multiple times about the NKU and UMass situations giving him a bit of a bad rep in coaching circles. CofC lets him continue to build in that region and sets him up for an ACC or SEC job in 3-4 years if he shows it can translate out of a one-bid 14-16 seed conference. I mean Gregg Marshall didn't even jump to a high major conference and his results at Winthrop dwarfed Kelsey's. Interestingly enough, he also accepted and then backed out of CofC the year before he left for Wichita St.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 25, 2021, 03:05:22 PM
Hard disagree. Those are conference designations. Gonzaga is a top-10 program in a mid-major conference. Those two are not conflicting statements.
And Loyola simply doesn't have the resources, exposure, or long-term consistency to be considered on par with high-majors or top-10 programs. No one would confuse Loyola with Gonzaga. Maybe in 15-20 years.
So, Gonzaga is a major program in a mid-major conference. We agree.
Loyola is not on the same level as Gonzaga. Again, we agree.
Quote from: lessthannick11 on March 25, 2021, 02:50:01 PM
Well apparently plan B is not Pat Kelsey, who is leaving Winthrop to go to.....THE College of Charlestown
unless Ryan Odom turned this one down this is a very surprising hire. Not because Kelsey isn't a highly qualified coach (I'd have taken him at MU), but rather CofC hired a search firm run by Odom's father.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 25, 2021, 11:52:52 AM
I am going to go with a hot-take, but I am predicting the next head coach a wild card/left field candidate. Someone we don't know about yet. Perhaps a P6 head coach that feels he has capped out at his current stop. Just a hunch, no inside knowledge.
So reading between the lines, you are guaranteeing Bruce Weber is the next Marquette coach.
What's the whole pat kelsey Sandy hook thing people keep mentioning?
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 25, 2021, 03:26:59 PM
So, Gonzaga is a major program in a mid-major conference. We agree.
Loyola is not on the same level as Gonzaga. Again, we agree.
Who is?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 25, 2021, 03:58:08 PM
Funny coming from the Beav, aina?
watch out. he has Wally and Eddie Haskell backing him. And be especially wary about June.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 25, 2021, 04:18:33 PM
What's the whole pat kelsey Sandy hook thing people keep mentioning?
Here's a few articles about it.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2012/12/18/winthrop-pat-kesley-sandy-hook-shooting/1778835/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2012/12/18/winthrop-pat-kesley-sandy-hook-shooting/1778835/)
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/race4chase-sandy-hook-winthrop-pat-kelsey-rebecca-kowalski-triathlon/8gj5trmpn6sj1rttqqx9y0amg (https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/race4chase-sandy-hook-winthrop-pat-kelsey-rebecca-kowalski-triathlon/8gj5trmpn6sj1rttqqx9y0amg)
Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on March 25, 2021, 02:54:10 PM
You are aware the 2018 team was loaded with seniors right? And that he wouldn't have had the recruiting bump leading into the immediate following season?
If by "loaded with seniors" you mean they had two senior starters and a senior who was the second guy off the bench than sure, they were loaded. I'd argue that their best players that season were a junior and a freshman.
A drop off from should have been expected the following year. 100% agree.
Dropping 100 spots in KenPom while losing 10 games to teams ranked outside the top 100 and winning 0 games against teams ranked in the top 134 should not have been expected. Moser underperformed bigly that year. He's redeemed himself this season and earned his way back in the conversation. I just don't like inconsistency like that.
Quote from: RJax55 on March 25, 2021, 04:26:58 PM
Here's a few articles about it.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2012/12/18/winthrop-pat-kesley-sandy-hook-shooting/1778835/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2012/12/18/winthrop-pat-kesley-sandy-hook-shooting/1778835/)
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/race4chase-sandy-hook-winthrop-pat-kelsey-rebecca-kowalski-triathlon/8gj5trmpn6sj1rttqqx9y0amg (https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/race4chase-sandy-hook-winthrop-pat-kelsey-rebecca-kowalski-triathlon/8gj5trmpn6sj1rttqqx9y0amg)
This is keeping him from jobs somehow? How is any of that controversial?
Quote from: shoothoops on March 25, 2021, 02:55:18 PM
It's also of course much easier to win at Michigan than Loyola, which I'm sure you'd acknowledge.
To win? Sure. But that's not the conversation we were having. We were having a conversation about overperforming/underperforming compared to KenPom (though you could substitute whatever metric service you want) preseason expectations. In that case, it is much easier to overperform at Loyola than it is at Michigan given their respective expectations.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 25, 2021, 02:55:18 PM
I understand it as something to look at once in a while. It isn't something I would use or consider often or every time as a baseline. I think its something you value much more than me. For me it's more of how does Team A do this particular season. I mentioned it because many coaches are going to over-perform or underperform KenPom expectations some of the time. What matters most are results regardless of over or under performing. What are your results for a particular season? And what are your collective results?
KenPom
2012 SLU 14 VCU 46
2013 SLU 19 VCU 18
2014 SLU 35 VCU 25
League Finishes
2012 SLU 2nd VCU 2nd
2013 SLU 1st VCU 2nd
2014 VCU 1st VCU 2nd
*All finishes are A-10 except VCU played in Colonial 2012.
Moser recruited the bulk of those players for SLU before leaving for Loyola Chicago HC. VCU's coach (Shaka Smart) was a strong candidate for MUBB at the time after the 2014 season.
I think I would very much love to hire Rick Majerus. I think trying to compare Shaka's head coaching record to Porter Moser's assistant coaching record is disingenuous at best.
Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on March 25, 2021, 04:49:28 PM
This is keeping him from jobs somehow? How is any of that controversial?
Honestly, it is only the dumb Coaching Changes twitter that seems to care. Either they:
Hate what he said (possible)
Or feel that Kelsey used Sandy Hook to further his brand/image (I think this is more likely).
I'm pretty cynical, but that's a step way too far for me.
Anyway, Kelsey's bigger issue to me is the fact that he walked away from two jobs (UMass & Northern Kentucky) after agreeing to terms.
Quote from: RJax55 on March 25, 2021, 04:57:39 PM
Anyway, Kelsey's bigger issue to me is the fact that he walked away from two jobs (UMass & Northern Kentucky) after agreeing to terms.
Did he walk away because his wife told him to?
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 25, 2021, 05:04:21 PM
Did he walk away because his wife told him to?
If I was the College of Charleston, I would still have my plan B ready.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 25, 2021, 05:04:21 PM
Did he walk away because his wife told him to?
Jokes aside, he was well farther along in both those coaching hires before backing out than Shaka was with Marquette. #DoneDeal tweets and new reports are one thing, I can't even imagine this place if a coaching hire backed out less than 30 min before their introductory press conference.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 25, 2021, 04:56:59 PM
To win? Sure. But that's not the conversation we were having. We were having a conversation about overperforming/underperforming compared to KenPom (though you could substitute whatever metric you want) preseason expectations. In that case, it is much easier to overperform at Loyola than it is at Michigan given their respective expectations.
I think I would very much love to hire Rick Majerus. I think trying to compare Shaka's head coaching record to Porter Moser's assistant coaching record is disingenuous at best.
I'm more interested in results than over or underperforming KenPom annually. It's easier to achieve those results at Michigan and other Power 5 schools. I think we can agree on that. I can recognize ober/under performing preseason predictions can be an occasional part of a discussion and valuation. It seems to be the almost "only" thing or default every post/discussion thing for you.
This allows examples of the many other coaches who's results can be, and have been uneven. Lon Kruger announced his retirement today. He went from 10 KenPom to 65 and 48 after his Final Four OU team, from 2016-2018. But hey it happens.
Seems disingenous to omit Moser's role there entirely during that overlapping time frame, and the results of the teams, when you frequently referencing Smart and MUBB after the 2014 season. (I may have missed your post about it)
*Disclaimer, I am not advocating for Moser to be MUBB HC.
Quote from: JWags85 on March 25, 2021, 05:25:15 PM
Jokes aside, he was well farther along in both those coaching hires before backing out than Shaka was with Marquette. #DoneDeal tweets and new reports are one thing, I can't even imagine this place if a coaching hire backed out less than 30 min before their introductory press conference.
what's worse was Dana Altman doing the introductory press conference at Arkansas then going back to Creighton the next day. Bobby Cremins did the same at South Carolina, his alma mater, and went back to Ga Tech a few days later.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 25, 2021, 06:19:21 PM
what's worse was Dana Altman doing the introductory press conference at Arkansas then going back to Creighton the next day. Bobby Cremins did the same at South Carolina, his alma mater, and went back to Ga Tech a few days later.
Majerus at USC
My Plan B is Kenpom.
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 25, 2021, 12:22:05 PM
Not as excited about Moser as the rest of this Board apparently is. Moser is the flavor of the day and while he has done well in the MVC, a steady died of Jay Wright and the Big East is something totally different than winning twice against MVC caliber teams.
THIS
I know only what I read but of the mentioned candidates to date, I really like Gates. Has shown he can both recruit on our level and can coach. I'm a believer on him. There are others as good but Gates hits the right buttons for us to be good.
Quote from: MU82 on March 25, 2021, 07:52:29 PM
My Plan B is Kenpom.
Pass
KenPom always underperforms his preseason KenPom.
Quote from: GOO on March 25, 2021, 10:50:21 AM
Or if Indiana makes a run at Moser.
Nothing is certain until the contract is signed and the house purchased.
Until somebody sees him driving northbound on I94 eating Arby's.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 25, 2021, 05:28:01 PM
I'm more interested in results than over or underperforming KenPom annually. It's easier to achieve those results at Michigan and other Power 5 schools. I think we can agree on that. I can recognize ober/under performing preseason predictions can be an occasional part of a discussion and valuation. It seems to be the almost "only" thing or default every post/discussion thing for you.
I think you may have forgotten how Michigan got brought into this conversation.
Another poster compared an argument I had made about Wojo to one I was making about Moser. I pointed out the differences with mutliple stats, including underperforming preseason predictions.
You joined in and focused on the preseason expectations piece. To try to discredit this, you posted that John Beinlein once underperformed his preseason KP expectations. I pointed out that over a 12 year stay at Michigan, he had actually rarely underperformed and usually overperformed. You tried to dismiss this by saying it's easier to win at Michigan...which was a goalpost shift from your last post about Beilein underperforming KP expectations. I pointed out that its actually harder to overperform at Michigan because when you start ranked 34 or higher in KenPom (as Beilein did his last 9 years), it's hard to move up than if you start 55 or lower (as Moser understandably has always done). Now you would like to shift again to a different argument.
It's not the only thing. I've posted plenty of things I like and dislike about various candidates. I wrote 3,000 some words on it for Paint Touches if you want to look at it. With Moser, there are things I like and don't like. The most alarming stat is his inconsistency, so I bring it up when people are talking about Moser.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 25, 2021, 05:28:01 PM
This allows examples of the many other coaches who's results can be, and have been uneven. Lon Kruger announced his retirement today. He went from 10 KenPom to 65 and 48 after his Final Four OU team, from 2016-2018. But hey it happens.
10 to 65 and 48 is much better than 33 to 131 and 101. I think you and I can agree on that. I think you would also agree that Lon Krueger lost a lot more talent to graduation than Moser did. Whereas Moser lost 2 starters and 1 top bench player, Kreuger lost 3 starters, including a consensus AA/Wooden Award winner/Naismith Award winner/Big12 POY/future lottery pick/future NBA All-Rookie.
Moser had a disappointing season after his FF. It's okay to acknowledge that. He has plenty of other positives on his resume.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 25, 2021, 05:28:01 PM
Seems disingenous to omit Moser's role there entirely during that overlapping time frame, and the results of the teams, when you frequently referencing Smart and MUBB after the 2014 season. (I may have missed your post about it)
I honestly don't know what you mean by "when you frequently referencing Smart and MUBB after 2014 season." But I can promise you I'm not considering Smart's time as an assistant coach when I'm posting that I prefer Smart over Moser. I'm considering both of their times as head coaches.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 25, 2021, 05:28:01 PM
*Disclaimer, I am not advocating for Moser to be MUBB HC.
Who are you advocating for?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 25, 2021, 09:58:11 PM
I think you may have forgotten how Michigan got brought into this conversation.
Another poster compared an argument I had made about Wojo to one I was making about Moser. I pointed out the differences with mutliple stats, including underperforming preseason predictions.
You joined in and focused on the preseason expectations piece. To try to discredit this, you posted that John Beinlein once underperformed his preseason KP expectations. I pointed out that over a 12 year stay at Michigan, he had actually rarely underperformed and usually overperformed. You tried to dismiss this by saying it's easier to win at Michigan...which was a goalpost shift from your last post about Beilein underperforming KP expectations. I pointed out that its actually harder to overperform at Michigan because when you start ranked 34 or higher in KenPom (as Beilein did his last 9 years), it's hard to move up than if you start 55 or lower (as Moser understandably has always done). Now you would like to shift again to a different argument.
It's not the only thing. I've posted plenty of things I like and dislike about various candidates. I wrote 3,000 some words on it for Paint Touches if you want to look at it. With Moser, there are things I like and don't like. The most alarming stat is his inconsistency, so I bring it up when people are talking about Moser.
10 to 65 and 48 is much better than 33 to 131 and 101. I think you and I can agree on that. I think you would also agree that Lon Krueger lost a lot more talent to graduation than Moser did. Whereas Moser lost 2 starters and 1 top bench player, Kreuger lost 3 starters, including a consensus AA/Wooden Award winner/Naismith Award winner/Big12 POY/future lottery pick/future NBA All-Rookie.
Moser had a disappointing season after his FF. It's okay to acknowledge that. He has plenty of other positives on his resume.
I honestly don't know what you mean by "when you frequently referencing Smart and MUBB after 2014 season." But I can promise you I'm not considering Smart's time as an assistant coach when I'm posting that I prefer Smart over Moser. I'm considering both of their times as head coaches.
Who are you advocating for?
Even Pakuni posted jokingly that KenPom underperforms preseason KenPom. I laughed.
Why are we here? Are we here because we would like to see MUBB win, and get results? Or are we here to see if MUBB over or under performs KenPom? Let's see the forest for the trees here.
Lots and lots of coaches have uneven KenPom results year to year. Some of them went to a Final Four one year, then missed the NCAA's and took a few years to win another NCAA game. Beilein, Kruger, it happened with Thad Matta, all kinds of coaches. It also wasn't a big negative for me when other coaches did it too.
You seem to forget that you are often in your posts comparing Loyola's MVC results with those of Power 5 programs instead of its peers. This isn't apples to apples. It's okay to acknowledge that. I mentioned that it's easier for some of those Power 5 schools to get results, and therefore have higher expectations. So when a school such as Texas has a 61 or 70 KenPom in recent years, or other examples, that stands out, considering the school.
For example, when MUBB had an Elite 8 with Buzz, there were some big predictions by some for the following season. Then Vander leaves etc...we know the results. I care about the results that year the same as I would any other year, not based on predictions, but just for the results themselves. How did MUBB do that year vs its peers? I don't get caught up in over/under performing, or this and that vs rosters. There will be other years where MUBB does better than expectations etc...
You have posted several times about Shaka Smart, including referencing his past VCU days. At one point after the 2014 season Smart was a serious candidate for Marquette HC.
I pointed out that their results while good, were not as good as SLU during those seasons SLU played with players largely recruited by Moser. In addition to that, when it was pointed out to you, you have multiple times now said that you only compare head coaches to head coaches. No one said Moser was the head coach at the time. (Although 5 different times he was the HC when Majerus took 5 different leaves of absence.) Moser's contributions to those overlapping seasons have considerable value, and, they are relevant considering Smart was an MUBB HC candidate at the time. That value won't be ignored because he wasn't the head coach. Nah.
In the two seasons between their Final Four, and this season, Loyola won their league once, finished 2nd once. No MVC had a better KenPom than them one year, and one did the next. Apples to apples. It's okay to acknowledge that.
I have said several times I am interested in apples to apples results.
If you want to post something here or link something here that you have written about the pros and cons of candidates, I will take a look at it. Otherwise all I can go by is what you post here. 👍
Quote from: shoothoops on March 25, 2021, 11:54:13 PM
I pointed out that their results while good, were not as good as SLU during those seasons SLU played with players largely recruited by Moser. In addition to that, when it was pointed out to you, you have multiple times now said that you only compare head coaches to head coaches. No one said Moser was the head coach at the time. (Although 5 different times he was the HC when Majerus took 5 different leaves of absence.) Moser's contributions to those overlapping seasons have considerable value, and, they are relevant considering Smart was an MUBB HC candidate at the time. That value won't be ignored because he wasn't the head coach. Nah.
I still don't understand what you are getting at with this paragraph. How is comparing SLU's record while Moser was an AC in 2012-2014 to VCU's record while Smart was a head coach during the same time period relevant to who the better head coach of Marquette would be in 2021? Show me where the apples to apples comparison is because I'm not seeing it.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 25, 2021, 11:54:13 PM
On the two seasons between their Final Four, and this season, Loyola won their league once, finished 2nd once. No MVC had a better KenPom than them one year, and one did the next. Apples to apples. It's okay to acknowledge that.
So what I'm getting here is that you only care about "results", specifically, league finish because if you're beating your peers, you are doing well. There's some truth to that but there are results you are ignoring. #131 in KenPom, a bad result for a team that just made the final four. Going 0-5 against the top 134 teams in KenPom. Bad result. Losing 10 games to teams ranked #127 and lower in KenPom. Bad result. If you play in a bad league (and the MVC isn't bad every year but it was bad that year) league finish isn't a good barometer for me.
What I'm getting from the rest of your post is that there is some data that you just don't value. And that's fine. There some data I value and other data that I don't. I think the decision makers do value some of that data and I'm glad they do.
I noticed you didn't answer my question about who you are advocating for since you have repeatedly said you are not advocating for Moser. I'm hoping for Craig Smith. I don't think he'll be the pick but based on the information available he's who I'd hire. Who are you hoping for?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 26, 2021, 01:02:11 AM
I still don't understand what you are getting at with this paragraph. How is comparing SLU's record while Moser was an AC in 2012-2014 to VCU's record while Smart was a head coach during the same time period relevant to who the better head coach of Marquette would be in 2021? Show me where the apples to apples comparison is because I'm not seeing it.
I'm told that while Hologram Al is retired, Moser wants to fill the Associate Head Coach role with Phantom Rick, so it's basically the same staff as SLU with the roles reversed.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 26, 2021, 05:28:44 AM
I'm told that while Hologram Al is retired, Moser wants to fill the Associate Head Coach role with Phantom Rick, so it's basically the same staff as SLU with the roles reversed.
Stay classy. At least you are consistent when you don't know what else to say when your inconsistencies are pointed out.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 26, 2021, 01:02:11 AM
I still don't understand what you are getting at with this paragraph. How is comparing SLU's record while Moser was an AC in 2012-2014 to VCU's record while Smart was a head coach during the same time period relevant to who the better head coach of Marquette would be in 2021? Show me where the apples to apples comparison is because I'm not seeing it.
So what I'm getting here is that you only care about "results", specifically, league finish because if you're beating your peers, you are doing well. There's some truth to that but there are results you are ignoring. #131 in KenPom, a bad result for a team that just made the final four. Going 0-5 against the top 134 teams in KenPom. Bad result. Losing 10 games to teams ranked #127 and lower in KenPom. Bad result. If you play in a bad league (and the MVC isn't bad every year but it was bad that year) league finish isn't a good barometer for me.
What I'm getting from the rest of your post is that there is some data that you just don't value. And that's fine. There some data I value and other data that I don't. I think the decision makers do value some of that data and I'm glad they do.
I noticed you didn't answer my question about who you are advocating for since you have repeatedly said you are not advocating for Moser. I'm hoping for Craig Smith. I don't think he'll be the pick but based on the information available he's who I'd hire. Who are you hoping for?
It's relevant to compare overlapping time periods in the same league, whether that is as an assistant or head coach. Both you and BrewCity77 have referenced Shaka's time at VCU. Another candidate for the Marquette job worked at a different school in the same league at the same time. That seems to be relevant information. I forgot when Rick Majerus went to Andre Miller's high school instead of Donny Daniels.
If it's valuable to mention Dennis Gates' assistant coaching experience with Leonard Hamilton, Mike Montgomery etc...(and it is) this is relevant too. It's okay that many of Moser's recruits did a little better than VCU during that time. VCU was good too. Now all of a sudden for you and BrewCity77, Majerus coached SLU all by himself. That's amazing.
I value a wide variety of information, and, a wide variety of results. It is far more likely for a team in a non Power 5/Big East league to have losses against teams with high KenPom based on schedule. As you know getting non-conference games is challenging, especially home and home.
I would have to go look at it but the non-conference record of the top 4 Big 10 teams this year wasn't good. They had a great season but they struggled as a whole in the NCAA's.
I put a disclaimer on some of my posts because I was seeing where some people would jump to conclusions based on discussion of one coach.
Much of the board was dismissive of Moser as a candidate. Even Brian Wardle was BrewCity77's guy all of two months ago. And when being dismissive, the reasons seemed inconsistent. It started as, Wardle has not fared as well as Moser in the MVC in their overlapping time. It was strange to me why Wardle was generating more interest here. Sure he is an MUBB alum. But it was either lazy or bias or both. All depends. That led to other discussions. I point out what I know when and where it adds to the discussion or clears up discussion.
I am not advocating for anyone. But I would like to see Dennis Gates get a chance. He would need to put together a gold varied staff, as would any candidate. But obviously Moser is qualified, likable, and would possibly do well. I think it was Gato78 that came here and said some things he heard from someone. It just so happened I knew those things were different from what he heard, so I spoke up.
If you go back and look at my posting history, I have acknowledged and discussed all aspects of Moser and resume.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 26, 2021, 08:10:44 AM
It's relevant to compare overlapping time periods in the same league, whether that is as an assistant or head coach. Both you and BrewCity77 have referenced Shaka's time at VCU. Another candidate for the Marquette job worked at a different school in the same league at the same time. That seems to be relevant information. I forgot when Rick Majerus went to Andre Miller's high school instead of Donny Daniels.
If it's valuable to mention Dennis Gates' assistant coaching experience with Leonard Hamilton, Mike Montgomery etc...(and it is) this is relevant too. It's okay that many of Moser's recruits did a little better than VCU during that time. VCU was good too. Now all of a sudden for you and BrewCity77, Majerus coached SLU all by himself. That's amazing.
I value a wide variety of information, and, a wide variety of results. It is far more likely for a team in a non Power 5/Big East league to have losses against teams with high KenPom based on schedule. As you know getting non-conference games is challenging, especially home and home.
I would have to go look at it but the non-conference record of the top 4 Big 10 teams this year wasn't good. They had a great season but they struggled as a whole in the NCAA's.
I put a disclaimer on some of my posts because I was seeing where some people would jump to conclusions based on discussion of one coach.
Much of the board was dismissive of Moser as a candidate. Even Brian Wardle was BrewCity77's guy all of two months ago. And when being dismissive, the reasons seemed inconsistent. It started as, Wardle has not fared as well as Moser in the MVC in their overlapping time. It was strange to me why Wardle was generating more interest here. Sure he is an MUBB alum. But it was either lazy or bias or both. All depends. That led to other discussions. I point out what I know when and where it adds to the discussion or clears up discussion.
I am not advocating for anyone. But I would like to see Dennis Gates get a chance. He would need to put together a gold varied staff, as would any candidate. But obviously Moser is qualified, likable, and would possibly do well. I think it was Gato78 that came here and said some things he heard from someone. It just so happened I knew those things were different from what he heard, so I spoke up.
If you go back and look at my posting history, I have acknowledged and discussed all aspects of Moser and resume.
I don't think Brew ever advocated for Wardle.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 26, 2021, 08:20:27 AM
I don't think Brew ever advocated for Wardle.
December 28, 2020, and in follow up posts after, yes.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 26, 2021, 07:49:16 AM
Stay classy. At least you are consistent when you don't know what else to say when your inconsistencies are pointed out.
Good god man, you're tightly wound. Someone clearly can't take a joke.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/d506a63ae8dd6b3f15a1278a0cc0cf80/tenor.gif)
Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 26, 2021, 08:20:27 AM
I don't think Brew ever advocated for Wardle.
I would've happily taken Wardle over Wojo. I would still take Wardle over Wojo. But for those of us living in the present, my preference is Shaka #1, Gates #2, Smith #3, Moser #4. I feel any of the four would be clear upgrades over our departed coach.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 26, 2021, 08:38:02 AM
Good god man, you're tightly wound. Someone clearly can't take a joke.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/d506a63ae8dd6b3f15a1278a0cc0cf80/tenor.gif)
I believe you are projecting.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 26, 2021, 08:39:25 AM
I would've happily taken Wardle over Wojo. I would still take Wardle over Wojo. But for those of us living in the present, my preference is Shaka #1, Gates #2, Smith #3, Moser #4. I feel any of the four would be clear upgrades over our departed coach.
Previously you weren't considering Moser, and you would have taken Wardle over Moser two months ago based on years of information. That's a pretty big two month swing for you.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 26, 2021, 08:44:49 AM
Previously you weren't considering Moser, and you would have taken Wardle over Moser two months ago based on years of information. That's a pretty big two month swing for you.
People are allowed to evolve their opinions.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 26, 2021, 08:46:14 AM
People are allowed to evolve their opinions.
Absolutely, opinions can and do change and evolve over time.
But his post here makes it seem like he would have taken Wardle over Wojo. This omits where it was Wardle over Moser, and Moser was dismissed entirely as a candidate.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 25, 2021, 06:38:56 PM
Majerus at USC
I had forgotten about that. Good call! My buddy, a MU grad, was working at USC at the time and had met with Rick. Apparently the issue was Rick's mom, she was in poor health and she asked him not to move to California.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 26, 2021, 08:10:44 AM
It's relevant to compare overlapping time periods in the same league, whether that is as an assistant or head coach. Both you and BrewCity77 have referenced Shaka's time at VCU. Another candidate for the Marquette job worked at a different school in the same league at the same time. That seems to be relevant information. I forgot when Rick Majerus went to Andre Miller's high school instead of Donny Daniels.
If it's valuable to mention Dennis Gates' assistant coaching experience with Leonard Hamilton, Mike Montgomery etc...(and it is) this is relevant too. It's okay that many of Moser's recruits did a little better than VCU during that time. VCU was good too. Now all of a sudden for you and BrewCity77, Majerus coached SLU all by himself. That's amazing.
Who said Majerus coached SLU by himself? Surely you recognize that a head coach has more responsibility and gets more credit for a team's success than one of his assistants. You say you value apples to apples comparisons but you are comparing team records between a head coach and guy who was recruiting for a future HOF coach. Moser doesn't get the same level of credit for those years at SLU that Shaka gets for VCU. Sure its another experience on Moser's resume, but the fact that SLU had a better team record at that time is not good evidence that Moser would be a better head coach. Let's play this out.
Duke's Record when Wojo was an assistant:
99: KP 1 ACC 1
00: KP 5 ACC 1
01: KP 1 ACC 1
02: KP 1 ACC 2
03: KP 6 ACC 3
04: KP 1 ACC 1
05: KP 3 ACC 3
06: KP 2 ACC 1
07: KP 10 ACC 6
08: KP 6 ACC 2
09: KP 10 ACC 2
10: KP 1 ACC 1
11: KP 2 ACC 2
12: KP 19 ACC 2
13: KP 6 ACC 2
14: KP 8 ACC 2
Take any slice of this and it is a better record than Roy Williams, Jim Boeheim, Mike Brey, Leonard Hamilton, and every other ACC coach that Wojo assistant coached against. Is this somehow evidence that Wojo is a better coach than all of these coaches?
Quote from: shoothoops on March 26, 2021, 08:10:44 AM
If it's valuable to mention Dennis Gates' assistant coaching experience with Leonard Hamilton, Mike Montgomery etc...(and it is) this is relevant too.
It's valuable because assistant coaches typically are the leads on recruiting. So if Gates landed top 100 players regularly at FSU, that's relevant data. If Moser landed players that fit Majerus' system regularly, that's relevant data. I also find it valuable when a coach has learned under multiple head coaches. But trying to compare the overall team record as an assistant to the overall team record as a head coach is much less relevant.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 26, 2021, 08:10:44 AM
I value a wide variety of information, and, a wide variety of results. It is far more likely for a team in a non Power 5/Big East league to have losses against teams with high KenPom based on schedule. As you know getting non-conference games is challenging, especially home and home.
I've never knocked Moser for not playing enough good teams. Mid-majors understandably have less opportunities. However, I am going to knock him for losing all 5 of his opportunities to beat a team in the top 134 of KenPom in the year we were discussing. I will also knock him for losing 10 times to teams ranked 127 or lower that year. Loyola can only play the schedule in front of them yes, but if its an easier schedule, the expectation should be to win more than he did that year.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 26, 2021, 08:10:44 AM
Much of the board was dismissive of Moser as a candidate. Even Brian Wardle was BrewCity77's guy all of two months ago. And when being dismissive, the reasons seemed inconsistent. It started as, Wardle has not fared as well as Moser in the MVC in their overlapping time. It was strange to me why Wardle was generating more interest here. Sure he is an MUBB alum. But it was either lazy or bias or both. All depends. That led to other discussions. I point out what I know when and where it adds to the discussion or clears up discussion.
I think people were right to be dismissive prior to this season. This year he proved himself a legitimate candidate. Still not my personal pick but he earned his way into the conversation. I can't speak on Wardle because I have never wanted Wardle to be our coach. Would rather have kept Wojo.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 26, 2021, 08:10:44 AM
I am not advocating for anyone. But I would like to see Dennis Gates get a chance. He would need to put together a gold varied staff, as would any candidate. But obviously Moser is qualified, likable, and would possibly do well. I think it was Gato78 that came here and said some things he heard from someone. It just so happened I knew those things were different from what he heard, so I spoke up.
If you go back and look at my posting history, I have acknowledged and discussed all aspects of Moser and resume.
I like Gates too. He's my second pick. Moser is my fourth but think he would be a solid hire.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 26, 2021, 10:19:43 AM
Who said Majerus coached SLU by himself? Surely you recognize that a head coach has more responsibility and gets more credit for a team's success than one of his assistants. You say you value apples to apples comparisons but you are comparing team records between a head coach and guy who was recruiting for a future HOF coach. Moser doesn't get the same level of credit for those years at SLU that Shaka gets for VCU. Sure its another experience on Moser's resume, but the fact that SLU had a better team record at that time is not good evidence that Moser would be a better head coach. Let's play this out.
Duke's Record when Wojo was an assistant:
99: KP 1 ACC 1
00: KP 5 ACC 1
01: KP 1 ACC 1
02: KP 1 ACC 2
03: KP 6 ACC 3
04: KP 1 ACC 1
05: KP 3 ACC 3
06: KP 2 ACC 1
07: KP 10 ACC 6
08: KP 6 ACC 2
09: KP 10 ACC 2
10: KP 1 ACC 1
11: KP 2 ACC 2
12: KP 19 ACC 2
13: KP 6 ACC 2
14: KP 8 ACC 2
Take any slice of this and it is a better record than Roy Williams, Jim Boeheim, Mike Brey, Leonard Hamilton, and every other ACC coach that Wojo assistant coached against. Is this somehow evidence that Wojo is a better coach than all of these coaches?
It's valuable because assistant coaches typically are the leads on recruiting. So if Gates landed top 100 players regularly at FSU, that's relevant data. If Moser landed players that fit Majerus' system regularly, that's relevant data. I also find it valuable when a coach has learned under multiple head coaches. But trying to compare the overall team record as an assistant to the overall team record as a head coach is much less relevant.
I've never knocked Moser for not playing enough good teams. Mid-majors understandably have less opportunities. However, I am going to knock him for losing all 5 of his opportunities to beat a team in the top 134 of KenPom in the year we were discussing. I will also knock him for losing 10 times to teams ranked 127 or lower that year. Loyola can only play the schedule in front of them yes, but if its an easier schedule, the expectation should be to win more than he did that year.
I think people were right to be dismissive prior to this season. This year he proved himself a legitimate candidate. Still not my personal pick but he earned his way into the conversation. I can't speak on Wardle because I have never wanted Wardle to be our coach. Would rather have kept Wojo.
I like Gates too. He's my second pick. Moser is my fourth but think he would be a solid hire.
"It's another experience on a resume" comes across as dismissive. It was never even mentioned until I brought it up. And when it has been it has been a dismissive response. I couldn't disagree more there.
Are you really trying to compare recruiting to SLU at the time to recruiting to Duke? Not exactly apples to apples.
Results matter more than recruiting rankings.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 26, 2021, 10:44:05 AM
Are you really trying to compare recruiting to SLU at the time to recruiting to Duke? Not exactly apples to apples.
I'm doing exactly what you did. Comparing a team's KenPom ranking and league finish during an assistant coach's tenure to other head coaches who coached in the same conference at the same time as that assistant coach.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 26, 2021, 10:44:05 AM
"It's another experience on a resume" comes across as dismissive. It was never even mentioned until I brought it up. And when it has been it has been a dismissive response. I couldn't disagree more there.
I didn't mean for it to be dismissive. And if it was, I feel the same way about all the candidates so it wasn't specific to Moser.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 26, 2021, 10:44:05 AM
Results matter more than recruiting rankings.
I don't think I argued otherwise. But results aren't just based on recruiting. Coaching, development, adjustments, etc...all those contribute to success. Majerus had a bigger role in that than Moser did, as all head coaches have a bigger role in success than their assistants do.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 26, 2021, 11:47:40 AM
I'm doing exactly what you did. Comparing a team's KenPom ranking and league finish during an assistant coach's tenure to other head coaches who coached in the same conference at the same time as that assistant coach.
I didn't mean for it to be dismissive. And if it was, I feel the same way about all the candidates so it wasn't specific to Moser.
I don't think I argued otherwise. But results aren't just based on recruiting. Coaching, development, adjustments, etc...all those contribute to success. Majerus had a bigger role in that than Moser did, as all head coaches have a bigger role in success than their assistants do.
No, results aren't just based on recruiting. But it was and is a relevant thing of value to mention that wasn't mentioned. No one said that is all he did. I perhaps have a bit more info on this than you, and I will leave it at that.