Wojo will be back next season and therein lies a conundrum.
How do we reconcile wanting Wojo gone with wanting Marqueete to win? The more Wojo wins next year, the more likely we keep him around.
A scenario: next year Wojo eeks out .500 BE season and makes it to Dayton, where he loses.
I think that would be a better season finish than most of us predict, incl the Board who could grasp on to "progress" and this year being a COVID year, and then give Wojo an extension (assuming they don't this year). We are then stuck in mediocrity hell. 1st round NCAA exits are would just good enough to keep Wohljo around forever.
Better that we finish 10th so there is no question about starting over?
I think the more Wojo wins next year, the more likely it is he jumps ship to another job. I can't see Carton and Garcia staying for 2022-23. Wojo will have nothing left, and he'll need to jump ship if he does well. Whether he wins or loses, he'll only be our coach for one more season.
I want him gone now, though.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 12, 2021, 06:31:50 AM
I think the more Wojo wins next year, the more likely it is he jumps ship to another job. I can't see Carton and Garcia staying for 2022-23. Wojo will have nothing left, and he'll need to jump ship if he does well. Whether he wins or loses, he'll only be our coach for one more season.
I want him gone now, though.
Nail on the head and why this is the biggest problem with him. He has to know the fan base doesn't want him here. He's a lame duck coach going into next year and it's just another year of the program barely treading water. He's fired or he takes a job elsewhere.
I don't think he'll come close to achieving results that would appease all parties involved at MU next season.
I'd love to see MU win next year, be a relevant program, and have Wojo be courted by someone else. Perfect scenario.
The anti-Wojo crowd is now at the Dukiet level, and likely worse. Far worse than Deane level; Deane actually had supporters. Wojo has no support outside of the person(s) that matter.
Quote from: Warrior of Law on March 12, 2021, 06:38:08 AM
I'd love to see MU win next year, be a relevant program, and have Wojo be courted by someone else. Perfect scenario.
The anti-Wojo crowd is now at the Dukiet level, and likely worse. Far worse than Deane level; Deane actually had supporters. Wojo has no support outside of the person(s) that matter.
So you would like for us to finally have a successful season only to have to start all over again with a new guy? Makes sense.
There is no conundrum. I always want the team to do well.
Quote from: Warrior of Law on March 12, 2021, 06:38:08 AM
I'd love to see MU win next year, be a relevant program, and have Wojo be courted by someone else. Perfect scenario.
The anti-Wojo crowd is now at the Dukiet level, and likely worse. Far worse than Deane level; Deane actually had supporters. Wojo has no support outside of the person(s) that matter.
The only reason you think its at the Dukiet level is because its social media time now and people are more outspoken.
I don't care who's coaching at Marquette. I will support whoever is in charge unless they are breaking rules.
I reconcile it the same way I did this year. I want Marquette to win. And I would love for Wojo to still prove me wrong. If he finishes near the top of the Big East, makes the tourney, I'll be cheering for the team all the way.
I think the kids are a big part of it too. Last year, I desperately wanted Markus to go out on a high, even as I saw more and more clearly the flaws in the Wojo system. This year, I wanted to see Theo, Jamal, and Koby have a successful season.
Just like this year, I couldn't cheer against the team even when I knew fire losing was the only thing that would get Wojo expelled.
There is no conundrum. MU is a program not a coach. I just want a winning team and don't care who the coach is. If MU does well and extends Wojo and he does well moving forward, great.
I won't root for or against MU based on a coach's job status.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 12, 2021, 07:35:48 AM
Just like this year, I couldn't cheer against the team even when I knew fire losing was the only thing that would get Wojo expelled.
Even worse, it turns out that wasn't important in the decision.
Quote from: tower912 on March 12, 2021, 06:53:35 AM
There is no conundrum. I always want the team to do well.
This is it. Thread closed.
I've moved on from wanting wojo fired. That's like needing air to breathe, it can be assumed that is what everyone wants. We should probably turn our attention to the jackasses who got us in a situation where we can't afford to fire an underperforming coach. The board of trustees, the university executives. They've guided the whole university into the toilet, not just the basketball program.
I agree ....
It's time to put some pressure on the
BOT. They have sat by while Lovell has the entire university on a downward trajectory.
I know two BOT members and will be making calls.
Quote from: Mu8891 on March 12, 2021, 08:08:34 AM
I know two BOT members and will be making calls.
Fight the good fight.
Quote from: Mu8891 on March 12, 2021, 08:08:34 AM
I agree ....
It's time to put some pressure on the
BOT. They have sat by while Lovell has the entire university on a downward trajectory.
I know two BOT members and will be making calls.
Scoop letter writing campaign?
I want to win and if we win win Wojo that would be great. The reason we want Wojo gone is that it is obvious that we are not going to finish in the top half of the league next year.
How about we support the women's program with money and attendance. Show everyone that success matters and we fully support a program that succeeds. Top 3 finishes and NCAA tourny berths is the expectation and the men's program has failed badly on that front over Wojo's tenure.
Agree with those who say it's no conundrum at all.
I will root for us to win every single game next season, and for us to have a great season overall. I believe Wojo should have been fired, but I am hoping he proves me and everybody else wrong next season.
All "conundrums" should be solved this easily.
We Are Marquette!
I want Wojo gone, I believe he's a terrible coach.
However, if Marquette were to right the ship next year and make a deep ncaa run, I'll be rooting for wojo to succeed.
However, I don't think that will happen.
Assuming Norlander is correct, which at this moment I believe he is but things can change, the best thing for the program would be for Wojo to improve as a coach, prove us all wrong, and lead us to a high seed in the NCAAT accompanied by a few wins in March, and for him to stay and continue on that path. I don't think it is the most realistic, but it is the best. I'll hope for the best until the best becomes impossible.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 12, 2021, 09:37:37 AM
Assuming Norlander is correct, which at this moment I believe he is but things can change, the best thing for the program would be for Wojo to improve as a coach, prove us all wrong, and lead us to a high seed in the NCAAT accompanied by a few wins in March, and for him to stay and continue on that path. I don't think it is the most realistic, but it is the best. I'll hope for the best until the best becomes impossible.
This. Maybe he performs better with a fire under his ass and that's what gets him over the hump.
One thing is for sure and that's that Wojo will either be a man on a mission over the next year or he'll be completely checked out. I'd prefer the former but if it's the later then he's gone anyways.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 12, 2021, 09:40:43 AM
This. Maybe he performs better with a fire under his ass and that's what gets him over the hump.
One thing is for sure and that's that Wojo will either be a man on a mission over the next year or he'll be completely checked out. I'd prefer the former but if it's the later then he's gone anyways.
If he stays, he needs to accept his failures and make changes. New assistants and stronger emphasis on protecting the ball (not popping balloons).
It's going to be ugly next year and he needs to sell himself and the program to disgruntled fans. Same Wojo won't work.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 12, 2021, 09:37:37 AM
Assuming Norlander is correct, which at this moment I believe he is but things can change, the best thing for the program would be for Wojo to improve as a coach, prove us all wrong, and lead us to a high seed in the NCAAT accompanied by a few wins in March, and for him to stay and continue on that path. I don't think it is the most realistic, but it is the best. I'll hope for the best until the best becomes impossible.
First of all, thank you for the highlighted. Stating unequivocally that Wojo will be back without proof or solid evidence is contrary to our Marquette educations.I agree that we should hope to be proven wrong. Yes, its not realistic but its all we have.
Another poor performance will not help Wojo find a new job. It will, however, present Marquette in a very bad position when trying to attract a good prospective coach and players.
Unfortunately, the school has chosen to be between a rock and a hard place.
In choosing to keep Wojo, between Hausergate, the lack of any postseason success, year-end losing stretches, the blowout losses and the inability to consistently finish in the top-half of the conference, the school is choosing to ignore the failures because of either: the financial cost in making a move and/or the misplaced self-righteousness of ignorantly choosing to keep an optically successful head coach, without the actual results to back it up. If/when Wojo returns next year, fan support will go down. Ticket sales will go down. Optimism is already down. For the fans that still choose to attend games, there will undoubtedly be booing of our own school/team if/when it underachieves and loses.
The problem is that even if Marquette miraculously does well next year, the losses we will experience will be highlighted more than the wins we get - due to the past experiences of this Wojo-era. If we make a run in the tournament, it will be branded as the exception, not the rule, of his run as head coach. In this regard, there is no pathway towards sustainable success under Wojo (however right or wrong that is). Wojo has already established in the eyes of many (not just MU fans) that he is not a consistently successful head coach.
Thus, no matter what, our problems are not easy solvable next year. And the problems are rooted not just in the coaching of the program, but the oversight and direction set forth by the school. Very unfortunate.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 12, 2021, 10:03:07 AM
First of all, thank you for the highlighted. Stating unequivocally that Wojo will be back without proof or solid evidence is contrary to our Marquette educations.I agree that we should hope to be proven wrong. Yes, its not realistic but its all we have.
Another poor performance will not help Wojo find a new job. It will, however, present Marquette in a very bad position when trying to attract a good prospective coach and players.
FWIW
https://twitter.com/CoachingChanges/status/1370377282867580930?s=20
Quote from: panda on March 12, 2021, 10:07:17 AM
FWIW
https://twitter.com/CoachingChanges/status/1370377282867580930?s=20
I don't understand the relevance?
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 12, 2021, 10:19:50 AM
I don't understand the relevance?
Scoop's last sentence implies Marquette will not be able to attract a high level replacement if MU has another poor season.
This post says otherwise, hence "for what it's worth."
Quote from: panda on March 12, 2021, 10:22:35 AM
Scoop's last sentence implies Marquette will not be able to attract a high level replacement if MU has another poor season.
This post says otherwise, hence "for what it's worth."
History proves what coaching changes is saying as false
I think scoop has failed to define what a 'high level replacement' is. Another highly sought after assistant? A mid-major coach ready to make the leap?
Quote from: tower912 on March 12, 2021, 10:28:57 AM
I think scoop has failed to define what a 'high level replacement' is. Another highly sought after assistant? A mid-major coach ready to make the leap?
"Defining things" is well outside our wheelhouse. We are very good at "irrational ranting" however.
I interpreted the statement as we'd be able to compete and win with other schools for highly sought after guys. Contrary to the statement Scoop made.
Nothing more than that.
Quote from: tower912 on March 12, 2021, 10:28:57 AM
I think scoop has failed to define what a 'high level replacement' is. Another highly sought after assistant? A mid-major coach ready to make the leap?
There's the rub, there is no right answer to that question
Even though Coaching Changes has not predicted Wojo to get the axe, it is clearly supporting it. In the past several seasons, they have accurately predicted many coaching changes and hires (Tulane/Ron Hunter, Holtmann/OSU, Howard/UM, Crean/UGA, etc.). Whether or not anyone likes the content, it is run by a number of anonymous D1 assistant coaches (who also share the login to other coaches within their networks). It is funny because, often times, the "writers" will be unsure of who actually is writing on the page. I'm not even sure the anonymous coaches know who has or doesn't have the login information.
Quote from: panda on March 12, 2021, 09:43:22 AM
If he stays, he needs to accept his failures and make changes. New assistants and stronger emphasis on protecting the ball (not popping balloons).
It's going to be ugly next year and he needs to sell himself and the program to disgruntled fans. Same Wojo won't work.
I 100% agree but there's absolutely no reason to believe he'll change assistants. He likes yes men. That's why if Killings gets the Albany job or leaves for another job he'll promote Cam or Danny Mads.
Everyone talks about Wojo being fired but Rob Judson and Jake Preschuiti should've had their desks cleared by the time the plane landed Wednesday night
Quote from: swoopem on March 12, 2021, 10:52:04 AM
I 100% agree but there's absolutely no reason to believe he'll change assistants. He likes yes men. That's why if Killings gets the Albany job or leaves for another job he'll promote Cam or Danny Mads.
Everyone talks about Wojo being fired but Rob Judson and Jake Preschuiti should've had their desks cleared by the time the plane landed Wednesday night
Yep - Or rehiring Gainey. It's insanely tone deaf to continue promoting/rehiring from within when you've proven yourself inept.
Some serious soul searching is required, but I don't think anyone with any influence will force him to look in the mirror.
Quote from: panda on March 12, 2021, 10:54:59 AM
Yep - Or rehiring Gainey. It's insanely tone deaf to continue promoting/rehiring from within when you've proven yourself inept.
Some serious soul searching is required, but I don't think anyone with any influence will force him to look in the mirror.
Of course not. He went to Duke. He's smarter than everyone else
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 12, 2021, 10:06:08 AM
Thus, no matter what, our problems are not easy solvable next year.
I read your previous paragraph and I disagree. Winning solves everything, especially for fans.
Quote from: swoopem on March 12, 2021, 10:52:04 AM
I 100% agree but there's absolutely no reason to believe he'll change assistants. He likes yes men. That's why if Killings gets the Albany job or leaves for another job he'll promote Cam or Danny Mads.
Everyone talks about Wojo being fired but Rob Judson and Jake Preschuiti should've had their desks cleared by the time the plane landed Wednesday night
I agree with all this, especially the part about Presutti and Judson. Those two turds, at the very least, need to be sent packing. Presutti is really, really good at clapping as the players come off the floor before an official timeout. Outside of that, I'm not sure what he does.
If Wojo doesn't get axed this year, winning next year is still the best outcome. I'd rather him leave after we make the S16 and be the most appealing program possible to a solid replacement.
Pressuti seems to be the perfect replacement for Carrawell, who contributed nothing during his tenure outside of the staff's noontime pickup games
Quote from: swoopem on March 12, 2021, 10:52:04 AM
I 100% agree but there's absolutely no reason to believe he'll change assistants. He likes yes men. That's why if Killings gets the Albany job or leaves for another job he'll promote Cam or Danny Mads.
Everyone talks about Wojo being fired but Rob Judson and Jake Preschuiti should've had their desks cleared by the time the plane landed Wednesday night
If Cam or Mads would get promoted, Wojo should be fired immediately. I thought he actually did pretty well early on with his assistants. The bubble we are creating is becoming worrisome.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 12, 2021, 09:37:37 AM
Assuming Norlander is correct, which at this moment I believe he is but things can change, the best thing for the program would be for Wojo to improve as a coach, prove us all wrong, and lead us to a high seed in the NCAAT accompanied by a few wins in March, and for him to stay and continue on that path. I don't think it is the most realistic, but it is the best. I'll hope for the best until the best becomes impossible.
Your scenario would be ideal. If we are not competitive in the BE next season and fail to make the tourney it will be time to cut him loose.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 12, 2021, 11:38:26 AM
I agree with all this, especially the part about Presutti and Judson. Those two turds, at the very least, need to be sent packing. Presutti is really, really good at clapping as the players come off the floor before an official timeout. Outside of that, I'm not sure what he does.
The guy went from video coordinator to assistant (big jump). I've been convinced for a while now that we don't even watch film so I'm not sure he was even a good video coordinator
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2021, 11:23:52 AM
I read your previous paragraph and I disagree. Winning solves everything, especially for fans.
This.
If Wojo stays, and if we have a great season - defined by me as legitimately contending for the conference title, no late-season fade, and at least a second-weekend NCAAT run - most will be pretty happy about it.
We don't do that if not for significant improvement from DJ, Garcia and Lewis, good contributions from incoming freshmen, and solid performance from an impact transfer or two. In other words, things a coach is supposed to do will have been done.
The idea that Wojo will be retained and then will mail it in is just silly. Why would he do that? He'd get fired, he'd be toxic for years, he might never get a P6 head-coaching job again.
Please note that I am not predicting the great season I talked about earlier. If I really thought all that was likely, I wouldn't have been calling for him to get fired.
But I don't think it's an outlandish prospect, either. He already has had 3 NCAAT seasons, has already had a top-2 BEast finish. To have a season similar to 2018-19 but don't fold down the stretch and do win a couple NCAAT games ... it's not crazy talk.
The beautiful (or ugly) thing is that we'll get to see!
Quote from: MU82 on March 12, 2021, 12:11:16 PM
This.
If Wojo stays, and if we have a great season - defined by me as legitimately contending for the conference title, no late-season fade, and at least a second-weekend NCAAT run - most will be pretty happy about it.
We don't do that if not for significant improvement from DJ, Garcia and Lewis, good contributions from incoming freshmen, and solid performance from an impact transfer or two. In other words, things a coach is supposed to do will have been done.
The idea that Wojo will be retained and then will mail it in is just silly. Why would he do that? He'd get fired, he'd be toxic for years, he might never get a P6 head-coaching job again.
Please note that I am not predicting the great season I talked about earlier. If I really thought all that was likely, I wouldn't have been calling for him to get fired.
But I don't think it's an outlandish prospect, either. He already has had 3 NCAAT seasons, has already had a top-2 BEast finish. To have a season similar to 2018-19 but don't fold down the stretch and do win a couple NCAAT games ... it's not crazy talk.
The beautiful (or ugly) thing is that we'll get to see!
So you need a second week tournament run in addition to your other requirements to consider retaining Wojo.Seems a bit excessive considering from what I've read you consider him a good man who runs a clean program. For me, he needs to have a great season with a high seed after that it really is a crap shoot.
I would hope that if Wojo is indeed retained that we upgrade one of our ACs to a veteran with some more notches on their belt.
Yes, if we get a top 3 finish and go to the S16 next year Wojo can earn another extension. Everyone would prefer that to losing and having Wojo fired. But that's not going to happen .
What is more plausible is Wojo goes 10-10, t6, and loses in a NCAA play in game. That scenario would probably be enough for Wojo to keep his job, but would be no indication that we will escape the morass of mediocrity.
If we don't have the money to fire the head guy, we certainly don't have the money for assistant coach upgrades.
Quote from: panda on March 12, 2021, 10:54:59 AM
Yep - Or rehiring Gainey. It's insanely tone deaf to continue promoting/rehiring from within when you've proven yourself inept.
Wojo has filled an assistant role by promoting from within exactly once.
Gainey, Stan and Killings were all hired from elsewhere. I guess you could spin Gainey as a promotion even though he spent a couple of years at Arizona, but even then half of the assistants he has hired to replace those who departed were sitting on the benches of other major programs and had no prior working relationship with Wojo.
Would be nice if we wouldn't make stuff up to be outraged about.
Quote from: Boozemon Barro on March 12, 2021, 12:44:54 PM
If we don't have the money to fire the head guy, we certainly don't have the money for assistant coach upgrades.
Firing the head guy is literally dozens of times more expensive than firing an AC and hiring a more expensive one
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 12, 2021, 12:48:45 PM
Firing the head guy is literally dozens of times more expensive than firing an AC and hiring a more expensive one
Being in the red and increasing your expenses puts you further in the red. They need to revise their revenue budget for the season ticket renewal decline due to retaining an unpopular coach the fanbase wants to be fired. If you think there is going to any increase in the expense budget you're taking crazy pills IMO.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 12, 2021, 12:47:04 PM
Wojo has filled an assistant role by promoting from within exactly once.
Gainey, Stan and Killings were all hired from elsewhere. I guess you could spin Gainey as a promotion even though he spent a couple of years at Arizona, but even then half of the assistants he has hired to replace those who departed were sitting on the benches of other major programs and had no prior working relationship with Wojo.
Would be nice if we wouldn't make stuff up to be outraged about.
Like I said - Rehiring Gainey....
Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 12, 2021, 06:31:50 AM
I think the more Wojo wins next year, the more likely it is he jumps ship to another job. I can't see Carton and Garcia staying for 2022-23. Wojo will have nothing left, and he'll need to jump ship if he does well. Whether he wins or loses, he'll only be our coach for one more season.
I want him gone now, though.
I fear that he gets another inexplicable extension that keeps the price of ejecting him high. Irrational, I know, but it's there in my mind...
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 12, 2021, 12:35:24 PM
I would hope that if Wojo is indeed retained that we upgrade one of our ACs to a veteran with some more notches on their belt.
Tamu, for how many years has this been suggested (and ignored by Wojo)?
It has to be at least three or four.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on March 12, 2021, 01:08:00 PM
Tamu, for how many years has this been suggested (and ignored by Wojo)?
It has to be at least three or four.
One year. He brought in Judson in response. It hasn't helped. I hope the suggestion is made again and they hire someone better this time.
Quote from: panda on March 12, 2021, 12:57:10 PM
Like I said - Rehiring Gainey....
Rehiring someone who you once had on a staff but went to two different jobs in the meantime is a lot different than a promotion.
Look, the premise was a poor one and doesn't hold up to the actuality.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on March 12, 2021, 01:01:54 PM
I fear that he gets another inexplicable extension that keeps the price of ejecting him high. Irrational, I know, but it's there in my mind...
Any extension without a severely reduced buyout should result in the dismissal of the AD
Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 12, 2021, 01:56:01 PM
Any extension without a severely reduced buyout should result in the dismissal of the AD
I'm very interested about the press release on this one. Do they mention a reduced buyout or does that leak to the Goodman's/Norlander's of the world?
Quote from: cheebs09 on March 12, 2021, 01:57:18 PM
I'm very interested about the press release on this one. Do they mention a reduced buyout or does that leak to the Goodman's/Norlander's of the world?
I don't know. I suspect TAMU or brew would know
Quote from: cheebs09 on March 12, 2021, 01:57:18 PM
I'm very interested about the press release on this one. Do they mention a reduced buyout or does that leak to the Goodman's/Norlander's of the world?
Of course they wouldn't mention a reduced buy out. No need to undermine a coach like that. My guess is that any extension would be quietly released on some Friday with a couple softball quotes.
I'm not certain that Harbaughing is the correct move anymore. Sends a stronger message to not extend. Sure it hurts recruiting but with Wojo's name on every hotseat list the damage is already done.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 12, 2021, 03:30:05 PM
I'm not certain that Harbaughing is the correct move anymore. Sends a stronger message to not extend. Sure it hurts recruiting but with Wojo's name on every hotseat list the damage is already done.
If you think about it, giving Wojo an extension with a sharply reduced buy-out is actually in Marquette's best interests. It likely isn't in Wojo's.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 12, 2021, 03:30:05 PM
I'm not certain that Harbaughing is the correct move anymore. Sends a stronger message to not extend. Sure it hurts recruiting but with Wojo's name on every hotseat list the damage is already done.
Yeah. Why would Wojo even sign it.
Scholl: Steve, great news: We are extending you for 10 more years for making it through the COVID years.
Steve: Why is my buy-out reduced from $6 million to $1977?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 12, 2021, 03:37:14 PM
If you think about it, giving Wojo an extension with a sharply reduced buy-out is actually in Marquette's best interests. It likely isn't in Wojo's.
Absolutely. But you also have to figure out how to spin announcing an extension to a coach coming off a losing season. Sure the savvy fans would know what is going on but it would scream tone deaf. You also lose security on the off chance that the ploy works and Wojo is successful enough next season that you want to retain him but can now be scooped up for pennies on the dollar. I don't know what the number is, but those factors are worth paying at least a little bit more.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 12, 2021, 03:50:26 PM
Yeah. Why would Wojo even sign it.
Scholl: Steve, great news: We are extending you for 10 more years for making it through the COVID years.
Steve: Why is my buy-out reduced from $6 million to $1977?
It's been done at other universities. Its essentially asking the coach to bet on himself to be successful next season.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 12, 2021, 04:48:13 PM
Absolutely. But you also have to figure out how to spin announcing an extension to a coach coming off a losing season. Sure the savvy fans would know what is going on but it would scream tone deaf. You also lose security on the off chance that the ploy works and Wojo is successful enough next season that you want to retain him but can now be scooped up for pennies on the dollar. I don't know what the number is, but those factors are worth paying at least a little bit more.
It's been done at other universities. Its essentially asking the coach to bet on himself to be successful next season.
Restructure the contract with extension as performance based. Buyout & Salary goes up for winning (even above current level), and trends to zero at .500 seasons. This might also placate faculty a little - and of course Wojo would bet on himself to win.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 12, 2021, 04:48:13 PM
It's been done at other universities. Its essentially asking the coach to bet on himself to be successful next season.
Here is my math. I make $2 million. I can get a three year paid vacation of $6 million. I am betting on myself that I can get a $3 million, 5 year deal in the next three years.
7 years and we are still hoping for the best. Just one more year, just one more year. Wake me up when they pull the plug on this guy. I think we can agree we can no longer blame Buzz for this nightmare.
In my eyes, Wojo is a lame duck next season if he is incomprehensively retained for next season. He is basically marketing himself for his next job and after next season, that job won't be and had better not be Marquette. That's his incentive to do well next year and if he does, I'll root for the team but when it's over, it's over. He doesn't have the previous success to mail it in so if he wants to continue to be a head coach, it's all in front of him. No amount of winning next season is going to make me think that will be nothing more than an aberration. No sudden turns of the corner. No he finally figured it out in year 8 because he hasn't. He is who we know he is at this point and that is a guy who just isn't a good coach who at this point is fortunate that he is employed by clowns above him who appear to be as equally incompetent at their jobs as he is at his.
IMO, He should have been dumped after year 5 when they embarrassed themselves in the tourney and then he lost 2 guys to transfers after the team fell apart down the stretch. There was plenty there at the time to indicate that he wasn't going to get us to where we felt we needed to be.
People are deluding themselves thinking oh, if we get these guys to come in and he recruits that guy, we'll be ok. It's fools gold. He's still the one who has to coach the kids and we know how that's turned out over the past 7 years.
So next year is the last year if he gets a next year. If we keep playing this what if game, we risk the whole program if it isn't irreparably damaged already. Read the back half of the Joey Meyer era at DePaul and what that spawned...and what they haven't yet recovered from.
Quote from: panda on March 12, 2021, 06:37:48 AM
Nail on the head and why this is the biggest problem with him. He has to know the fan base doesn't want him here. He's a lame duck coach going into next year and it's just another year of the program barely treading water. He's fired or he takes a job elsewhere.
I don't think he'll come close to achieving results that would appease all parties involved at MU next season.
All the more reason to can his ass.
Coach K's assistants generally have not been great. However, they keep getting jobs. I do not expect this to be Wojo's last job no matter how good or bad next season is.
Kinda crazy but as I was looking at the bubble and contemplating Marquette's situation - I realized we've only been safely in the tournament once during Wojo's tenure. Pathetic.
Quote from: tower912 on March 12, 2021, 06:53:35 AM
There is no conundrum. I always want the team to do well.
Yep. Wojo figures out the secret sauce, MU wins it all, and we're trying to figure out how to wrap him up.
There's a lot of question-not-being-answered going on in this thread. I don't think there's anyone out there (including myself) that is so spiteful of Wojo that we would actively cheer against Marquette on their way to a great season or big run in the tourney (i.e. Sweet Sixteen, Elite Eight or further).
The question would essentially be - what if this year happens all over again? What if we get to the point where we are out, or virtually out, of NCAA tourney contention in late January? Do we cheer for some meaningless wins at the end of the season (such as the UNC or DePaul wins this year)? Or do we hope that the team goes quietly into the night so as to leave no doubt (and no excuse for the BOT) about what we should do with Wojo?
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 12, 2021, 08:38:44 PM
There's a lot of question-not-being-answered going on in this thread. I don't think there's anyone out there (including myself) that is so spiteful of Wojo that we would actively cheer against Marquette on their way to a great season or big run in the tourney (i.e. Sweet Sixteen, Elite Eight or further).
The question would essentially be - what if this year happens all over again? What if we get to the point where we are out, or virtually out, of NCAA tourney contention in late January? Do we cheer for some meaningless wins at the end of the season (such as the UNC or DePaul wins this year)? Or do we hope that the team goes quietly into the night so as to leave no doubt (and no excuse for the BOT) about what we should do with Wojo?
Yes. I will want Marquette to win whenever we take the floor.
If the BOT hasn't made up its mind by late January if we are hopelessly out of contention, there's no hope anyway.
Oh ... and of course there will be people out there rooting against Wojo to win every single game next season. Are you new here?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 12, 2021, 05:20:35 PM
Here is my math. I make $2 million. I can get a three year paid vacation of $6 million. I am betting on myself that I can get a $3 million, 5 year deal in the next three years.
I'm right there with you. But I don't think coaches think about these things the same way that you and I do.
I can only hope that by retaining him this year, the BOT is looking at this as purely a transactional move: The University can't absorb the cost to get rid of him now or he would have already been removed. Their thinking shouldn't change no matter what happens. They "should" have seen enough as have most of us. You move on after next year no matter what.
As a fan, you root for MU to win and if they win great. However, if I'm thinking at that point if they win this will somehow endear him to the BOT to keep him on, then I have no faith in the BOT and their ability to do right by Marquette. Unfortunately, if that is the case, then we are in for a lot more disappointment to go along with what we already have.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 12, 2021, 08:38:44 PM
There's a lot of question-not-being-answered going on in this thread. I don't think there's anyone out there (including myself) that is so spiteful of Wojo that we would actively cheer against Marquette on their way to a great season or big run in the tourney (i.e. Sweet Sixteen, Elite Eight or further).
The question would essentially be - what if this year happens all over again? What if we get to the point where we are out, or virtually out, of NCAA tourney contention in late January? Do we cheer for some meaningless wins at the end of the season (such as the UNC or DePaul wins this year)? Or do we hope that the team goes quietly into the night so as to leave no doubt (and no excuse for the BOT) about what we should do with Wojo?
Yes - maybe I wasn't clear enough with the topic. I was not proposing a choice between MU going 30-0 and 0-30 - of course the former would be awesome and I'd rename my son Steve. It would also be awesome to win the lottery.
The conundrum is between a 10-10 BE finish, an invite to Dayton and a first round loss vs. MU doing poorly enough to ensure that Wojo gets fired. The former almost certainly keeps Wojo around, and if he doesn't get one this year, probably also buys him some kind of extension (because how do you recruit if not?). I guess would you rather burn a season or have Wojo do "just well enough" to lock us into a further, extended, period of mediocrity?
Wojo is the Peter Gibbons of basketball coaches.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/914bb0630fce67f61fae8026c7cf81b6/tenor.gif)
Dodds, Tower and the BOT talking to Wojo.
Quote from: joparks on March 12, 2021, 11:08:43 PM
I can only hope that by retaining him this year, the BOT is looking at this as purely a transactional move: The University can't absorb the cost to get rid of him now or he would have already been removed. Their thinking shouldn't change no matter what happens. They "should" have seen enough as have most of us. You move on after next year no matter what.
No matter what? So a top three conference finish and a run to the S16 should mean he would be let go?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 12, 2021, 11:04:35 PM
I'm right there with you. But I don't think coaches think about these things the same way that you and I do.
But their lawyers and agents do.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 13, 2021, 06:38:40 AM
But their lawyers and agents do.
True but they get paid by the coach not the other way around.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 13, 2021, 06:28:18 AM
No matter what? So a top three conference finish and a run to the S16 should mean he would be let go?
The if's like these are the reason we are in this type of situation in the first place. Let's face it, the guy has shown over the last 7 years that this would be more of an exception than a rule.
So you have to ask yourself, if you hired someone to do something and they got it right 1 out of 8 times, with the 1 time coming on the 8th try, would you be willing to trust your business going forward with that person?
There is nothing that tells me Wojo could even accomplish such a feat, let alone duplicate it. Duplication was a minimum expectation over the last 7 years. When the school hired him, I hope they weren't thinking of being satisfied with 1 S16 ending in 8 years after the previous coach got us to 3 in a row and the one before took us to a Final 4.
Quote from: joparks on March 13, 2021, 11:47:13 AM
The if's like these are the reason we are in this type of situation in the first place. Let's face it, the guy has shown over the last 7 years that this would be more of an exception than a rule.
So you have to ask yourself, if you hired someone to do something and they got it right 1 out of 8 times, with the 1 time coming on the 8th try, would you be willing to trust your business going forward with that person?
There is nothing that tells me Wojo could even accomplish such a feat, let alone duplicate it. Duplication was a minimum expectation over the last 7 years. When the school hired him, I hope they weren't thinking of being satisfied with 1 S16 ending in 8 years after the previous coach got us to 3 in a row and the one before took us to a Final 4.
I am just asking. You said "no matter what." And a top 3 finish and a second weekend finish isn't completely out of the realm of possibilities. I mean, I think he should be fired today, but clearly if he attains that finish next year, he won't be fired.
Do you think he should be if he does?
Here's the deal
Wojo has proven he CANNOT get it done.
When I look at the team that ( hopefully) returns next year + a few recruits, best case scenario is a 10 seed and first round exit. More likely an
NIT bid ... and
per Lovell / BOT / Dodds et al:
They are young... don't have a PG ...
Got " tired " ... etc etc etc, so that will be just fine.
Let's start a pool: at what time next year is the 1 - 6 swoon ?
It's a train wreck
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 13, 2021, 11:53:00 AM
I am just asking. You said "no matter what." And a top 3 finish and a second weekend finish isn't completely out of the realm of possibilities. I mean, I think he should be fired today, but clearly if he attains that finish next year, he won't be fired.
Do you think he should be if he does?
Yes, I do. Or he should be told to seek out other employment so that maybe he doesn't actually get fired, he leaves.
Here's my thinking, sorry for the length.
Other people have said if he has success next year we should extend him and place a incentive buyout program on the extension. Why? This is a let's try to get the best of both worlds here but really it doesn't fix the problem. I honestly don't think incentives matter in this case. I don't think he was trying to lose, I think he wants to win. I also don't think he lacks effort. I believe he works hard. I don't think if he tried harder, he would see any different results. He just doesn't have the skillset to coach a team to consistently meet the minimum expectations (top 3 or better in conference, s16 or better result) of our fanbase. Given the resources the school puts into the program, I don't think our expectations are out if line. He's just not talented enough to accomplish it so incentivizing him will have no impact on results.
He's the problem. It's taken a while for a lot of people here to come to grips with this. Great recruiting classes don't mean anything if you aren't a talented coach and he's not. For whatever reason, he just doesn't have it. He doesn't have the ability to develop kids and he can't get a team to perform at a level greater than the sum of it's parts. Can he recruit? Sure, but he still needs to develop 3, 4 and 5 star players and have a system that allows these players to grow and shine. These 3 and 4 star guys he brings in are the class of their HS teams but they have trouble finding cohesion in his system. It's led people to wonder if he even has a system. He doesn't adapt which is why we usually get our lunch handed to us late in the season after there is plenty of tape to review.
These are all knowns at this point. It's great that the kids are better people when they leave than when they come in but his job is to make his players better ball players than when they come in. Make his teams better at the end of the year than at the beginning. I can't say much for the former, it's hit and miss and the hits are marginal at best. The latter is obvious. Translation, he's not the right person for the job.
Now that this is obvious to everyone, you move on, you don't get swayed by a pocket of success because it's just a pocket, it's not the whole pant. I'm evaluating him on his whole body of work and even if he somehow manages something in a low expectation environment (meaning "we should be good in a down Big East next year"), it's not enough for me to think he's on to something. We used to be good (before Wojo) in years the BE was loaded - when the conference was a gauntlet. Now we hope to compete when it's down? Have we softened our expectations?
I gave him 5 years, after that, we should have moved on. People said that was ridiculous, we had a good class coming. We just made the tourney (and got hammered), there were Jay Wright comps, we were poised with the returning players to make a deep run in year six, it would be insane to let him go then. The way we lost in the tourney is what got me. He was not prepared and he was thoroughly out coached and classed by Murray State and he had no alternate plan when his first plan bombed. Then he had a mutiny in the locker room. He should have been axed then. Well, we are embarking on year 8 now, the team imploded, the great recruiting class doesn't appear to be as great as we thought, we are further away today from our goals than we have been in years and we can't get rid of him fast enough.
Once you realize the person in charge is not going to get you where you want to go, you don't stay on the bus and see where it takes you. You get off and find someone who else who can. People want to think that we can do this painless. You can't. Rip the band aid off and move on. We all will be glad we did and also wonder why we didn't do this sooner.
No coach has every been fired after a Sweet 16 appearance without off the court issues. Expecting that is crazy
Coaches can improve with time. I don't think Wojo will. But since we're stuck with him for another year, if he proves me wrong next season he'll get another year and that may be the correct choice. My guess is he gets fired next season
Quote from: joparks on March 13, 2021, 01:43:24 PM
Yes, I do. Or he should be told to seek out other employment so that maybe he doesn't actually get fired, he leaves.
Here's my thinking, sorry for the length.
Other people have said if he has success next year we should extend him and place a incentive buyout program on the extension. Why? This is a let's try to get the best of both worlds here but really it doesn't fix the problem. I honestly don't think incentives matter in this case. I don't think he was trying to lose, I think he wants to win. I also don't think he lacks effort. I believe he works hard. I don't think if he tried harder, he would see any different results. He just doesn't have the skillset to coach a team to consistently meet the minimum expectations (top 3 or better in conference, s16 or better result) of our fanbase. Given the resources the school puts into the program, I don't think our expectations are out if line. He's just not talented enough to accomplish it so incentivizing him will have no impact on results.
He's the problem. It's taken a while for a lot of people here to come to grips with this. Great recruiting classes don't mean anything if you aren't a talented coach and he's not. For whatever reason, he just doesn't have it. He doesn't have the ability to develop kids and he can't get a team to perform at a level greater than the sum of it's parts. Can he recruit? Sure, but he still needs to develop 3, 4 and 5 star players and have a system that allows these players to grow and shine. These 3 and 4 star guys he brings in are the class of their HS teams but they have trouble finding cohesion in his system. It's led people to wonder if he even has a system. He doesn't adapt which is why we usually get our lunch handed to us late in the season after there is plenty of tape to review.
These are all knowns at this point. It's great that the kids are better people when they leave than when they come in but his job is to make his players better ball players than when they come in. Make his teams better at the end of the year than at the beginning. I can't say much for the former, it's hit and miss and the hits are marginal at best. The latter is obvious. Translation, he's not the right person for the job.
Now that this is obvious to everyone, you move on, you don't get swayed by a pocket of success because it's just a pocket, it's not the whole pant. I'm evaluating him on his whole body of work and even if he somehow manages something in a low expectation environment (meaning "we should be good in a down Big East next year"), it's not enough for me to think he's on to something. We used to be good (before Wojo) in years the BE was loaded - when the conference was a gauntlet. Now we hope to compete when it's down? Have we softened our expectations?
I gave him 5 years, after that, we should have moved on. People said that was ridiculous, we had a good class coming. We just made the tourney (and got hammered), there were Jay Wright comps, we were poised with the returning players to make a deep run in year six, it would be insane to let him go then. The way we lost in the tourney is what got me. He was not prepared and he was thoroughly out coached and classed by Murray State and he had no alternate plan when his first plan bombed. Then he had a mutiny in the locker room. He should have been axed then. Well, we are embarking on year 8 now, the team imploded, the great recruiting class doesn't appear to be as great as we thought, we are further away today from our goals than we have been in years and we can't get rid of him fast enough.
Once you realize the person in charge is not going to get you where you want to go, you don't stay on the bus and see where it takes you. You get off and find someone who else who can. People want to think that we can do this painless. You can't. Rip the band aid off and move on. We all will be glad we did and also wonder why we didn't do this sooner.
This is a very well reasoned post.
Quote from: joparks on March 13, 2021, 01:43:24 PM
Yes, I do. Or he should be told to seek out other employment so that maybe he doesn't actually get fired, he leaves.
Here's my thinking, sorry for the length.
Other people have said if he has success next year we should extend him and place a incentive buyout program on the extension. Why? This is a let's try to get the best of both worlds here but really it doesn't fix the problem. I honestly don't think incentives matter in this case. I don't think he was trying to lose, I think he wants to win. I also don't think he lacks effort. I believe he works hard. I don't think if he tried harder, he would see any different results. He just doesn't have the skillset to coach a team to consistently meet the minimum expectations (top 3 or better in conference, s16 or better result) of our fanbase. Given the resources the school puts into the program, I don't think our expectations are out if line. He's just not talented enough to accomplish it so incentivizing him will have no impact on results.
He's the problem. It's taken a while for a lot of people here to come to grips with this. Great recruiting classes don't mean anything if you aren't a talented coach and he's not. For whatever reason, he just doesn't have it. He doesn't have the ability to develop kids and he can't get a team to perform at a level greater than the sum of it's parts. Can he recruit? Sure, but he still needs to develop 3, 4 and 5 star players and have a system that allows these players to grow and shine. These 3 and 4 star guys he brings in are the class of their HS teams but they have trouble finding cohesion in his system. It's led people to wonder if he even has a system. He doesn't adapt which is why we usually get our lunch handed to us late in the season after there is plenty of tape to review.
These are all knowns at this point. It's great that the kids are better people when they leave than when they come in but his job is to make his players better ball players than when they come in. Make his teams better at the end of the year than at the beginning. I can't say much for the former, it's hit and miss and the hits are marginal at best. The latter is obvious. Translation, he's not the right person for the job.
Now that this is obvious to everyone, you move on, you don't get swayed by a pocket of success because it's just a pocket, it's not the whole pant. I'm evaluating him on his whole body of work and even if he somehow manages something in a low expectation environment (meaning "we should be good in a down Big East next year"), it's not enough for me to think he's on to something. We used to be good (before Wojo) in years the BE was loaded - when the conference was a gauntlet. Now we hope to compete when it's down? Have we softened our expectations?
I gave him 5 years, after that, we should have moved on. People said that was ridiculous, we had a good class coming. We just made the tourney (and got hammered), there were Jay Wright comps, we were poised with the returning players to make a deep run in year six, it would be insane to let him go then. The way we lost in the tourney is what got me. He was not prepared and he was thoroughly out coached and classed by Murray State and he had no alternate plan when his first plan bombed. Then he had a mutiny in the locker room. He should have been axed then. Well, we are embarking on year 8 now, the team imploded, the great recruiting class doesn't appear to be as great as we thought, we are further away today from our goals than we have been in years and we can't get rid of him fast enough.
Once you realize the person in charge is not going to get you where you want to go, you don't stay on the bus and see where it takes you. You get off and find someone who else who can. People want to think that we can do this painless. You can't. Rip the band aid off and move on. We all will be glad we did and also wonder why we didn't do this sooner.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/l3q2XhfQ8oCkm1Ts4/giphy.gif)
Quote from: joparks on March 13, 2021, 01:43:24 PM
Yes, I do. Or he should be told to seek out other employment so that maybe he doesn't actually get fired, he leaves.
Here's my thinking, sorry for the length.
Other people have said if he has success next year we should extend him and place a incentive buyout program on the extension. Why? This is a let's try to get the best of both worlds here but really it doesn't fix the problem. I honestly don't think incentives matter in this case. I don't think he was trying to lose, I think he wants to win. I also don't think he lacks effort. I believe he works hard. I don't think if he tried harder, he would see any different results. He just doesn't have the skillset to coach a team to consistently meet the minimum expectations (top 3 or better in conference, s16 or better result) of our fanbase. Given the resources the school puts into the program, I don't think our expectations are out if line. He's just not talented enough to accomplish it so incentivizing him will have no impact on results.
He's the problem. It's taken a while for a lot of people here to come to grips with this. Great recruiting classes don't mean anything if you aren't a talented coach and he's not. For whatever reason, he just doesn't have it. He doesn't have the ability to develop kids and he can't get a team to perform at a level greater than the sum of it's parts. Can he recruit? Sure, but he still needs to develop 3, 4 and 5 star players and have a system that allows these players to grow and shine. These 3 and 4 star guys he brings in are the class of their HS teams but they have trouble finding cohesion in his system. It's led people to wonder if he even has a system. He doesn't adapt which is why we usually get our lunch handed to us late in the season after there is plenty of tape to review.
These are all knowns at this point. It's great that the kids are better people when they leave than when they come in but his job is to make his players better ball players than when they come in. Make his teams better at the end of the year than at the beginning. I can't say much for the former, it's hit and miss and the hits are marginal at best. The latter is obvious. Translation, he's not the right person for the job.
Now that this is obvious to everyone, you move on, you don't get swayed by a pocket of success because it's just a pocket, it's not the whole pant. I'm evaluating him on his whole body of work and even if he somehow manages something in a low expectation environment (meaning "we should be good in a down Big East next year"), it's not enough for me to think he's on to something. We used to be good (before Wojo) in years the BE was loaded - when the conference was a gauntlet. Now we hope to compete when it's down? Have we softened our expectations?
I gave him 5 years, after that, we should have moved on. People said that was ridiculous, we had a good class coming. We just made the tourney (and got hammered), there were Jay Wright comps, we were poised with the returning players to make a deep run in year six, it would be insane to let him go then. The way we lost in the tourney is what got me. He was not prepared and he was thoroughly out coached and classed by Murray State and he had no alternate plan when his first plan bombed. Then he had a mutiny in the locker room. He should have been axed then. Well, we are embarking on year 8 now, the team imploded, the great recruiting class doesn't appear to be as great as we thought, we are further away today from our goals than we have been in years and we can't get rid of him fast enough.
Once you realize the person in charge is not going to get you where you want to go, you don't stay on the bus and see where it takes you. You get off and find someone who else who can. People want to think that we can do this painless. You can't. Rip the band aid off and move on. We all will be glad we did and also wonder why we didn't do this sooner.
Well stated ... but much of it is unrealistic. As TAMU suggested, if Wojo takes us to the Sweet 16, he simply will not be fired.
Here's how I'm approaching it: We'll see what happens next season when we get well into next season.
I am not going to make threats I won't keep. There are folks here who are OUTRAGED OUTRAGED OUTRAGED! ... but even if we keep Wojo, they say they're still gonna kick out the big bucks for season tickets.
Yeah! That'll show Marquette!
There are levels of disgust. And no matter what one's level is, it doesn't necessarily mean one is a "lesser" fan.
I know that I will continue to watch every game and will root for us to win every individual game. I'll do that if we're 8-1 at the time, or if we're 1-8, or something in between. Marquette basketball isn't my life, but for the 2 hours that we are playing, I am all-in.
If lots of winning means Wojo stays, I can deal with that. Indeed, I hope it happens, and I hope it's the start of something big, and I hope I have to say I was wrong about firing Wojo immediately after the loss to DePaul.
If lots of losing means he goes, that's fine. But I'm never gonna sit there and root for us to lose.
Those who think it's best to sit in front of the TV and scream, "Damn!" when we go on a big run like we did against UNC and Butler and a couple other teams at the end of the season, or who say, "Yay!" when we lose to DePaul ... whatevs.
I agree, it sounds crazy, but crazy or not, it's probably the best solution long term. Rewarding someone after year 8 for accomplishing the minimum expectation for the first time (read - a broken clock is right twice a day) will only set that as the acceptable results bar which everyone else after him will be judged by and would be below everyone's current expectations. We aren't moving the ball forward in this case, we are actually moving it backwards. It would also deal a blow to this program and their fanbase that we are happy with a deep run once a decade. It also really lowers the return on investment the school has with the program considering the amount of resources they dump into it annually. Keep in mind, we aren't evaluating some guy who is in his 3rd or 4th year. This would be year 8 which is why any success has to be viewed as a blind squirrel finding a nut. We all know his deficiencies. I think we are way past the "he's figuring it out phase" so keeping him would only serve as a signal from the BOT that they are ok with that result, which would in turn probably upset many people because that's far below our expectations. Especially when the results turn back to normal, the carriage turns back into a pumpkin the year after.
That said, based on his whole body of work, I find highly unlikely he has success to this level next season. If he somehow does find success, I'm evaluating him off that whole body of work, not the what have you done for me lately. I would encourage him to take his newfound luck and seek employment elsewhere.
He knows the school and the fanbase want to get rid of him. He's aware that his buyout is the only thing possibly preventing that from happening. If I was in his position, I would be looking to move on after next year if he gets a next year regardless of the result. I'm not sure why he would want to stay where he's worn out his welcome and where even if he does have success, his past record makes that success look like a fluke (it would be). He knows now that he's gone whether he jumps or he's pushed. Next year, if he's coaching for us, he's coaching to continue coaching...at another school.
The temptation is to reward his results with a new contract or at least keep him. To fire him after a good season seems crazy and I can see that. But view it from this perspective. When you look at everything, it really would be crazy for the school to keep him...and still claim that they demand the level of program success we all expect. Besides, they have already rewarded his non results with new contracts so the gesture would be meaningless. If they did this after he took the team to the S16 in year 4, that's crazy. After year 8, not as crazy as you think and just because no school has ever done that before, doesn't make it crazy. If you look at it from an ROI perspective and look at the whole body of work and see a S16 run next year for what it would really be - an aberration, it's not crazy at all.
Quote from: joparks on March 13, 2021, 03:05:22 PM
I agree, it sounds crazy, but crazy or not, it's probably the best solution long term. Rewarding someone after year 8 for accomplishing the minimum expectation for the first time (read - a broken clock is right twice a day) will only set that as the acceptable results bar which everyone else after him will be judged by and would be below everyone's current expectations. We aren't moving the ball forward in this case, we are actually moving it backwards. It would also deal a blow to this program and their fanbase that we are happy with a deep run once a decade. It also really lowers the return on investment the school has with the program considering the amount of resources they dump into it annually. Keep in mind, we aren't evaluating some guy who is in his 3rd or 4th year. This would be year 8 which is why any success has to be viewed as a blind squirrel finding a nut. We all know his deficiencies. I think we are way past the "he's figuring it out phase" so keeping him would only serve as a signal from the BOT that they are ok with that result, which would in turn probably upset many people because that's far below our expectations. Especially when the results turn back to normal, the carriage turns back into a pumpkin the year after.
That said, based on his whole body of work, I find highly unlikely he has success to this level next season. If he somehow does find success, I'm evaluating him off that whole body of work, not the what have you done for me lately. I would encourage him to take his newfound luck and seek employment elsewhere.
He knows the school and the fanbase want to get rid of him. He's aware that his buyout is the only thing possibly preventing that from happening. If I was in his position, I would be looking to move on after next year if he gets a next year regardless of the result. I'm not sure why he would want to stay where he's worn out his welcome and where even if he does have success, his past record makes that success look like a fluke (it would be). He knows now that he's gone whether he jumps or he's pushed. Next year, if he's coaching for us, he's coaching to continue coaching...at another school.
The temptation is to reward his results with a new contract or at least keep him. To fire him after a good season seems crazy and I can see that. But view it from this perspective. When you look at everything, it really would be crazy for the school to keep him...and still claim that they demand the level of program success we all expect. Besides, they have already rewarded his non results with new contracts so the gesture would be meaningless. If they did this after he took the team to the S16 in year 4, that's crazy. After year 8, not as crazy as you think and just because no school has ever done that before, doesn't make it crazy. If you look at it from an ROI perspective and look at the whole body of work and see a S16 run next year for what it would really be - an aberration, it's not crazy at all.
Just because you keep saying this -- and saying it well -- doesn't mean it's realistic, jo.
But keep the ... um ... faith?
Kudos to joparks for the best summation of the case of Marquette vs. Wojo I have ever read. If you are not an attorney, you missed your calling.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 13, 2021, 11:53:00 AM
I am just asking. You said "no matter what." And a top 3 finish and a second weekend finish isn't completely out of the realm of possibilities.
Define "completely out". ?-(
Right now not enough talent to move up in the Big East. Now if he can sign 2 kids who can bring something to the table they might be OK, need a couple of kids who can make shots. Freshman as you can tell from last year were very inconsistent.
Quote from: BCHoopster on March 13, 2021, 03:46:50 PM
Right now not enough talent to move up in the Big East. Now if he can sign 2 kids who can bring something to the table they might be OK, need a couple of kids who can make shots. Freshman as you can tell from last year were very inconsistent.
Yes, we need to sign transfers who were at least as effective at their roles as Reinhardt and Rowsey were. I'm not saying we necessarily need those skill-sets (although Rowseyesque shooting would be nice), just that we need immediate, mature, skilled contributors, not posers like Froling or Chartouny.
Quote from: joparks on March 13, 2021, 03:05:22 PM
I agree, it sounds crazy, but crazy or not, it's probably the best solution long term. Rewarding someone after year 8 for accomplishing the minimum expectation for the first time (read - a broken clock is right twice a day) will only set that as the acceptable results bar which everyone else after him will be judged by and would be below everyone's current expectations. We aren't moving the ball forward in this case, we are actually moving it backwards. It would also deal a blow to this program and their fanbase that we are happy with a deep run once a decade. It also really lowers the return on investment the school has with the program considering the amount of resources they dump into it annually. Keep in mind, we aren't evaluating some guy who is in his 3rd or 4th year. This would be year 8 which is why any success has to be viewed as a blind squirrel finding a nut. We all know his deficiencies. I think we are way past the "he's figuring it out phase" so keeping him would only serve as a signal from the BOT that they are ok with that result, which would in turn probably upset many people because that's far below our expectations. Especially when the results turn back to normal, the carriage turns back into a pumpkin the year after.
That said, based on his whole body of work, I find highly unlikely he has success to this level next season. If he somehow does find success, I'm evaluating him off that whole body of work, not the what have you done for me lately. I would encourage him to take his newfound luck and seek employment elsewhere.
He knows the school and the fanbase want to get rid of him. He's aware that his buyout is the only thing possibly preventing that from happening. If I was in his position, I would be looking to move on after next year if he gets a next year regardless of the result. I'm not sure why he would want to stay where he's worn out his welcome and where even if he does have success, his past record makes that success look like a fluke (it would be). He knows now that he's gone whether he jumps or he's pushed. Next year, if he's coaching for us, he's coaching to continue coaching...at another school.
The temptation is to reward his results with a new contract or at least keep him. To fire him after a good season seems crazy and I can see that. But view it from this perspective. When you look at everything, it really would be crazy for the school to keep him...and still claim that they demand the level of program success we all expect. Besides, they have already rewarded his non results with new contracts so the gesture would be meaningless. If they did this after he took the team to the S16 in year 4, that's crazy. After year 8, not as crazy as you think and just because no school has ever done that before, doesn't make it crazy. If you look at it from an ROI perspective and look at the whole body of work and see a S16 run next year for what it would really be - an aberration, it's not crazy at all.
Everyone knows this.
But there is no way he gets fired if he goes to a Sweet 16 next year. Nor should he be.
Quote from: joparks on March 13, 2021, 03:05:22 PM
I agree, it sounds crazy, but crazy or not, it's probably the best solution long term. Rewarding someone after year 8 for accomplishing the minimum expectation for the first time (read - a broken clock is right twice a day) will only set that as the acceptable results bar which everyone else after him will be judged by and would be below everyone's current expectations. We aren't moving the ball forward in this case, we are actually moving it backwards. It would also deal a blow to this program and their fanbase that we are happy with a deep run once a decade. It also really lowers the return on investment the school has with the program considering the amount of resources they dump into it annually. Keep in mind, we aren't evaluating some guy who is in his 3rd or 4th year. This would be year 8 which is why any success has to be viewed as a blind squirrel finding a nut. We all know his deficiencies. I think we are way past the "he's figuring it out phase" so keeping him would only serve as a signal from the BOT that they are ok with that result, which would in turn probably upset many people because that's far below our expectations. Especially when the results turn back to normal, the carriage turns back into a pumpkin the year after.
That said, based on his whole body of work, I find highly unlikely he has success to this level next season. If he somehow does find success, I'm evaluating him off that whole body of work, not the what have you done for me lately. I would encourage him to take his newfound luck and seek employment elsewhere.
He knows the school and the fanbase want to get rid of him. He's aware that his buyout is the only thing possibly preventing that from happening. If I was in his position, I would be looking to move on after next year if he gets a next year regardless of the result. I'm not sure why he would want to stay where he's worn out his welcome and where even if he does have success, his past record makes that success look like a fluke (it would be). He knows now that he's gone whether he jumps or he's pushed. Next year, if he's coaching for us, he's coaching to continue coaching...at another school.
The temptation is to reward his results with a new contract or at least keep him. To fire him after a good season seems crazy and I can see that. But view it from this perspective. When you look at everything, it really would be crazy for the school to keep him...and still claim that they demand the level of program success we all expect. Besides, they have already rewarded his non results with new contracts so the gesture would be meaningless. If they did this after he took the team to the S16 in year 4, that's crazy. After year 8, not as crazy as you think and just because no school has ever done that before, doesn't make it crazy. If you look at it from an ROI perspective and look at the whole body of work and see a S16 run next year for what it would really be - an aberration, it's not crazy at all.
...does the school want to get rid of him? Isn't that the big question mark?