MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: TheyWereCones on March 03, 2020, 11:12:47 PM
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Why do we all have to assume that a new coach means a complete rebuild and several horrible years? It might? But it's certainly not guaranteed. Look at Buzz, looks at Gard, look at Jordan (Butler)...it's not that it always works that way but it's not impossible either. I still believe that MARQUETTE has a lot to offer and Wojo is one variable in that. Regardless of coach, there are a lot of reasons to play here.
Who here is not FAR more impressed by Coach Duffy and the women's team this year than the men's? Picked to finish 9th, gets the team to buy-in and scrap all season to a 2nd place finish. Give me that team, that attitude, that heart.
Wojo never exceeds expectations and I can't stand listening to him anymore. The timeout debacle at Butler was bad and today was bad and it's mostly been hard to cheer for. I am super excited about Justin, Oso, & Dawson. I would love to see them here with a new coach but I don't see all 4 of those things happening.
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+1 on the Megan Duffy call
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Wojos comments in the recent press conferences are highly concerning. He kept saying “there was a LOT of work to do when I got here. There was a LOT of work to do.”
It’s like he felt he was taking over a program that was transitioning from DII. Marquette is a program that should be competing at the highest level and this whole “complete rebuild” is just a wojo narrative.
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Wojo walked into a dumpster fire of a roster.
If wojo gets canned, his replacements walks into a similar dumpster fire (all recruits de-commit, a couple transfer out).
3-5 years from then and Marquette might be successful again.
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Wojos comments in the recent press conferences are highly concerning. He kept saying “there was a LOT of work to do when I got here. There was a LOT of work to do.”
It’s like he felt he was taking over a program that was transitioning from DII. Marquette is a program that should be competing at the highest level and this whole “complete rebuild” is just a wojo narrative.
He got to build a roster with almost all of his guys in year two. That should, if done correctly, accelerate a rebuild.
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Wojo walked into a dumpster fire of a roster.
If wojo gets canned, his replacements walks into a similar dumpster fire (all recruits de-commit, a couple transfer out).
3-5 years from then and Marquette might be successful again.
What MU coach in the past 30 years took 5 years to build a competitive team?
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What MU coach in the past 30 years took 5 years to build a competitive team?
You probably can't see it, but that's called exaggeration. Wojo has a very competitive team this year! An NCAA team even.
Deano took 5 years to kill a competitive team. That's the beginning and end of the list you asked for.
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Have lost to 9/10 teams that were quality opponents and just lost to depaul minus Paul reed - keep telling yourself the they are competitive.
You probably can't see it, but that's called exaggeration. Wojo has a very competitive team this year! An NCAA team even.
Deano took 5 years to kill a competitive team. That's the beginning and end of the list you asked for.
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You probably can't see it, but that's called exaggeration. Wojo has a very competitive team this year! An NCAA team even.
Deano took 5 years to kill a competitive team. That's the beginning and end of the list you asked for.
In Billy Madison, this is what’s known as “loser denial”.
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Wojo walked into a dumpster fire of a roster.
If wojo gets canned, his replacements walks into a similar dumpster fire (all recruits de-commit, a couple transfer out).
3-5 years from then and Marquette might be successful again.
More like 4-6 years and “slight chance” rather than “might” be successful. This is the end of a proud program. Short of hiring Stan, it’s all over. You don’t throw a class like this to the wind. The loss of recruiting momentum is just too great. Stan would likely salvage all these recruits, and I think he deserves a chance.
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You probably can't see it, but that's called exaggeration. Wojo has a very competitive team this year! An NCAA team even.
Deano took 5 years to kill a competitive team. That's the beginning and end of the list you asked for.
Sorry, my bad. This implosion of MU must be affecting my sense of sarcasm and exaggeration.
The rebuild with a new coach will not be fun but IMO a necessary evil. And no reason to believe we can't be competitive with in 2-3 years.
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More like 4-6 years and “slight chance” rather than “might” be successful. This is the end of a proud program. Short of hiring Stan, it’s all over. You don’t throw a class like this to the wind. The loss of recruiting momentum is just too great. Stan would likely salvage all these recruits, and I think he deserves a chance.
I know it won't happen, and I'm not sure he's the answer anyway, but if we lose Saturday and I ran the world, Stan would he HC by 7:45 pm. See what he can do in two(+) games that matter and then let him compete for the job after the end of the season.
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You don’t throw a class like this to the wind. The loss of recruiting momentum is just too great.
Well, based on the past one recruit will get the ball all the time (DG), one will be a contributor in time, and two will transfer.
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I know it won't happen, and I'm not sure he's the answer anyway, but if we lose Saturday and I ran the world, Stan would he HC by 7:45 pm. See what he can do in two(+) games that matter and then let him compete for the job after the end of the season.
Here’s a wild thought: I don’t trust the administration to make a smart hire. So, if Wojo leaves after the season, does MU do the dumb thing and...retain Stan as HC to try and keep the recruiting class? I have no idea if Stan would be a good coach. I’m certainly not one of those advocating for his hire. But I think that scenario is a real possibility.
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Here’s a wild thought: I don’t trust the administration to make a smart hire. So, if Wojo leaves after the season, does MU do the dumb thing and...retain Stan as HC to try and keep the recruiting class? I have no idea if Stan would be a good coach. I’m certainly not one of those advocating for his hire. But I think that scenario is a real possibility.
So you have no idea if he’d be a good coach, but it’s de facto “dumb” to hire a guy who we KNOW will at worst mean not setting the program back another 6-8 years?!
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Why do we all have to assume that a new coach means a complete rebuild and several horrible years? It might? But it's certainly not guaranteed. Look at Buzz, looks at Gard, look at Jordan (Butler)...it's not that it always works that way but it's not impossible either. I still believe that MARQUETTE has a lot to offer and Wojo is one variable in that. Regardless of coach, there are a lot of reasons to play here.
Every one of the examples you give here except Buzz (assuming you are talking about his VT years) walked into a much better situation than what the next coach would be walking into next season.
The other more pertinent reason is that rebuilds take time. Sure there are examples of coaches "rebuilding" in 2 years or less but the long term data on them is terrible. Most either get poached by a bigger school or are unable to maintain their initial success and eventually get fired. The most successful rebuilds long term take 4-6 years before they have a team going to the NCAA tournament multiple years in a row.
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So you have no idea if he’d be a good coach, but it’s de facto “dumb” to hire a guy who we KNOW will at worst mean not setting the program back another 6-8 years?!
I’m saying it would be a “dumb” move to hire a coach to keep one recruiting class. But if Stan ends up doing well, it may not be so dumb after all. My main point was that I could see this admin making a move like that.
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Every one of the examples you give here except Buzz (assuming you are talking about his VT years) walked into a much better situation than what the next coach would be walking into next season.
The other more pertinent reason is that rebuilds take time. Sure there are examples of coaches "rebuilding" in 2 years or less but the long term data on them is terrible. Most either get poached by a bigger school or are unable to maintain their initial success and eventually get fired. The most successful rebuilds long term take 4-6 years before they have a team going to the NCAA tournament multiple years in a row.
We are in year six, as you know. Maybe we get one this year, we shall see. Mick Cronin has UCLA playing pretty good ball in year 1.
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Interim head coach Stan.
#donedeal
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Every one of the examples you give here except Buzz (assuming you are talking about his VT years) walked into a much better situation than what the next coach would be walking into next season.
I guess that's all we need to know about Wojo's stewardship of our program. Very sad.
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Interim head coach Stan.
#donedeal
Honestly, it would be pretty cool if they tried it. Absolutely nothing to lose at this point, and Markus is Stan’s player. But there’s no way Scholl and Lovell have the balls to make a move like that.
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Stan is literally crying out to be a head coach. He is passionate, busts his a$$, articulate, recruits lights-out, is well-liked and trusted by the players and recruits, and looks extremely in command of the time-out huddles. Yet it’s dumb to take a chance on him and likely retain a “WOW” factor recruiting class and “smart” to blow everything to pieces on the chance we find a hidden gem somewhere?! Silent Verbal, I just saw your explanation and I get it, I just think based on pure probabilities, WarriorNation would be almost guaranteed sitting on Angst overload in 2022-23 with a blow-up. That level of fan and booster anxiety can take decades to recover from.
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I guess that's all we need to know about Wojo's stewardship of our program. Very sad.
With the recruiting class, I think we'd be an NIT team. If he lands Mane or a quality grad transfer, I see a bubble team that either just makes it in or misses. With both I see a team that makes it into the postseason. It's not an awful place to be in an rebuilding year.
Without the recruiting class and little to no time to replenish it....that's a dumpster fire
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People are right here. I don’t think Scholl and Lovell will fire Wojo. What really sucks is the way the whole Buzz thing went down and how the PR thing hamstrings us now. You can’t “fire” a guy like Wojo who has painstakingly built a program which has good kids who go to class and do things the right way. And yet you can’t let him just leave after the end of the season to save face either. We will look to the rest of the college hoops world like we are being “VA Teched” and spurned once again by our coach for a lesser (or equal) program...albeit it will be much less embarrassing as presumably Wojo is not about to go on an elite8 run, and few people will even notice the move. Yet, umm, duh, maybe it will be even MORE embarrassing because a coach who has achieved little here will be making a lateral move to a Wake Forest or something similar. We are in a bad spot going forward.
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With the recruiting class, I think we'd be an NIT team. If he lands Mane or a quality grad transfer, I see a bubble team that either just makes it in or misses. With both I see a team that makes it into the postseason. It's not an awful place to be in an rebuilding year.
Without the recruiting class and little to no time to replenish it....that's a dumpster fire
I admire your optimism and faith in Wojo's coaching ability. I think we take a step back next year in the Big East. MH, SA & JJ are very good players that I think freshmen will be hard pressed to even be as good as and most likely will not. If we end up 8-10 this year, next year looks like 4-14. I predict that MU will be picked 8th in the BE next season. IMO, .500 would be a good year for Wojo and the team.
Should Wojo find another "opportunity" after this season, I think MU can be competitive in 2 or 3 years.
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Serious question: is it actually a rebuild if the guy before you never built a damn thing?
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I admire your optimism and faith in Wojo's coaching ability. I think we take a step back next year in the Big East. MH, SA & JJ are very good players that I think freshmen will be hard pressed to even be as good as and most likely will not. If we end up 8-10 this year, next year looks like 4-14. I predict that MU will be picked 8th in the BE next season. IMO, .500 would be a good year for Wojo and the team.
Should Wojo find another "opportunity" after this season, I think MU can be competitive in 2 or 3 years.
Saying that we're 8-10 in Big East this season (assuming a loss to St. John's) so we will go 4-14 next season ignores the quality of the other teams in the Big East. Conference strength changes year to year. Next season there will be a bigger divide between the haves and have nots. As things stand, Creighton and Nova will be the runaway favorites in the Big East. I think Georgetown, SJU, and Depaul end up back in the gutter (assuming Yurtseven and Reed are gowne). Providence loses more than we do and doesn't have a recruiting class to fall back on. Barring some major late additions I think they end up in the basement as well. That leaves Butler, Marquette, Seton Hall, and Xavier in the middle between the haves and have nots. Right now, I would put us towards the bottom of that group but Mane or a good transfer could change that quickly.
TLDR: I think we take a step back overall but I think we may actually finish with a similar or better conference record.
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You probably can't see it, but that's called exaggeration. Wojo has a very competitive team this year! An NCAA team even.
Deano took 5 years to kill a competitive team. That's the beginning and end of the list you asked for.
Sorry Rocky this ain't an NCAA team, regardless if they get in. The guy cant coach, and after 6 years that is Capt. Obvious
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Sorry Rocky this ain't an NCAA team, regardless if they get in. The guy cant coach, and after 6 years that is Capt. Obvious
Uh, if they make the NCAA, they are an NCAA team. Saying that, I am not sure they are in. If I had to guess, they are a 10 now. Lose to St John's=11 seed, Lose first round BET=12/out. We need at least 1 win.
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Wojo walked into a dumpster fire of a roster.
If wojo gets canned, his replacements walks into a similar dumpster fire (all recruits de-commit, a couple transfer out).
3-5 years from then and Marquette might be successful again.
Do you know for sure that ALL recruits de-commit? That's not a given, the new coach would have a chance to retain them.
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Do you know for sure that ALL recruits de-commit? That's not a given, the new coach would have a chance to retain them.
Exactly...I keep saying this...depending on who you hired, there's a chance the recruits could stay. Everyone always assumes all recruits leave with a coaching change. Not always..
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Losing recruits over a coaching change is not a bad thing, if it happens. I would never hesitate to fire a coach over incoming recruits or current players bolting. I would much prefer a new coach getting his type of player, even it takes 2-3 years.
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Every one of the examples you give here except Buzz (assuming you are talking about his VT years) walked into a much better situation than what the next coach would be walking into next season.
The other more pertinent reason is that rebuilds take time. Sure there are examples of coaches "rebuilding" in 2 years or less but the long term data on them is terrible. Most either get poached by a bigger school or are unable to maintain their initial success and eventually get fired. The most successful rebuilds long term take 4-6 years before they have a team going to the NCAA tournament multiple years in a row.
Disagree with the 4-6 year requirement. A quick review of Marquette's history and one notes that Kevin O'Neill had the Warriors in the tourney in year 3, and Sweet 16 in year 4.
Marquette was beyond a dumpster fire when he arrived, someone had stolen the dumpster.
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Next year reminds me of the Ellenson year. A lot of promise, but we will get the youth excuse a ton. Plus, the experience we have are decent players, but I don’t see anyone taking over as a go-to guy.
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Losing recruits over a coaching change is not a bad thing, if it happens. I would never hesitate to fire a coach over incoming recruits or current players bolting. I would much prefer a new coach getting his type of player, even it takes 2-3 years.
Exactly.
Some go ape crap every time Wojo lands a recruit like they are the second coming of LeBron. How have all the previous “high level” recruits worked out for the success of the program? Some argue Wojo needs to stay because he is such a good recruiter. I would argue he is an average recruiter. Big East schools should be landing some 4 and even 5 star athletes.
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I'm not getting a warm and fuzzy feeling reading these posts. The situation is grim no matter how it works out.
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For the 100th time, Wojo did not walk into a dumpster fire. PURE Fiction. The reality is, that Wojo cannot coach - in the most important aspects" in-game coaching, roster management, locker room management, rotations, recognizing best lineup combinations.
How many more years and examples do his most staunch supporters need to face reality? He's a nice guy, clean cut, but we are going nowhere with him at the helm, beyond occasional NCAA's and consistent first round exits.
Sad that we have a poster saying the rebuild will be harder than those that Jordan or Gard faced..because of the state of the talent/roster left behind. Says all that needs to be said. Bad enough to finish 9-9 at best in this league with Markus Howard on the roster.
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Gotta wonder about the wisdom of recruits who would bolt because Woj left. What does he bring to the table, really, hey?
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I admire your optimism and faith in Wojo's coaching ability. I think we take a step back next year in the Big East. MH, SA & JJ are very good players that I think freshmen will be hard pressed to even be as good as and most likely will not. If we end up 8-10 this year, next year looks like 4-14. I predict that MU will be picked 8th in the BE next season. IMO, .500 would be a good year for Wojo and the team.
Should Wojo find another "opportunity" after this season, I think MU can be competitive in 2 or 3 years.
Here's the thing about Wojo. He gets a reset when Markus leaves. It is his chance to determine what kind of coach he is ultimately going to be. Is he going to continue to be alpha-dog centric? Or is he going to use this opportunity to be team-oriented (both on offense and defense)? As Cheeks might put it, is he going to coach in a manner where all his players feel they have "skin in the game"? We don't want 80% deferential players on our roster. We want almost all of the guys on the team confident enough to feel like they could take the big shot and confident enough to think any of the other guys could, too. If two of those freshmen are as good as advertised, and the team is coached properly (big if, I know), I could see us being a surprise next year.
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In for the Stan man. Every hire is a crap shoot at some level. You never ultimately know how good your #2 guy is until they have to be #1. As far as recruiting goes... I know Stan would keep Oso. DK would keep on Lewis. Was Garcia a Stan lead? 247 says so, but I haven't seen the obligatory pic of them together.
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For the 100th time, Wojo did not walk into a dumpster fire. PURE Fiction. The reality is, that Wojo cannot coach - in the most important aspects" in-game coaching, roster management, locker room management, rotations, recognizing best lineup combinations.
Give yourself credit, you've said this more than 100 times. Until you can give me an example of a coach taking over a team that missed the NIT, lost 5 out of its 6 top players, 3 out of 4 its recruits (and that recruit was the third best in the group), and taking it to the postseason in the first year, your words mean nothing. KenPom ranked us 87th in the country preseason (we finished 93rd). The Big East coaches picked us to finish 8th in conference (we finished 9th). Not one projection had us as a tournament team. I call that a dumpster fire, you can call it something else but whatever you call it, it wasn't good.
Sad that we have a poster saying the rebuild will be harder than those that Jordan or Gard faced..because of the state of the talent/roster left behind. Says all that needs to be said. Bad enough to finish 9-9 at best in this league with Markus Howard on the roster.
Not really that sad. Jordan and Gard inherited teams that performed a lot better the season before and lost less than we would lose this offseason. Both walked into good situations. There are plenty of other examples that could have been used but Jordan and Gard were bad ones. And next year is a rebuilding year. Every program has them every 2-3 years. As long as there is a good recruiting class in place to replace the outgoing talent, you should be fine. But if you fire a coach right before a rebuilding year, you likely lose the recruiting class, and that's how years like Wojo's first one happen.
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Disagree with the 4-6 year requirement. A quick review of Marquette's history and one notes that Kevin O'Neill had the Warriors in the tourney in year 3, and Sweet 16 in year 4.
First, that's an example from almost 30 years ago. Basketball has changed.
Second, KO doesn't even fit what I was talking about:
The other more pertinent reason is that rebuilds take time. Sure there are examples of coaches "rebuilding" in 2 years or less but the long term data on them is terrible. Most either get poached by a bigger school or are unable to maintain their initial success and eventually get fired. The most successful rebuilds long term take 4-6 years before they have a team going to the NCAA tournament multiple years in a row.
KO left and MU had to replace him. They ended up with Mike Deane who did his darndest to undo what KO built. The goal is to have a program that is strong for years and years. Not a program that has a couple of NCAA tournament appearances and then has to start over with a new coach.
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In for the Stan man. Every hire is a crap shoot at some level. You never ultimately know how good your #2 guy is until they have to be #1. As far as recruiting goes... I know Stan would keep Oso. DK would keep on Lewis. Was Garcia a Stan lead? 247 says so, but I haven't seen the obligatory pic of them together.
I find it absolutely inconceivable that anyone would want someone from this staff as our head coach.
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More like 4-6 years and “slight chance” rather than “might” be successful. This is the end of a proud program. Short of hiring Stan, it’s all over. You don’t throw a class like this to the wind. The loss of recruiting momentum is just too great. Stan would likely salvage all these recruits, and I think he deserves a chance.
Lol. This is a tournament team this year. Take a chill pill.
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Every one of the examples you give here except Buzz (assuming you are talking about his VT years) walked into a much better situation than what the next coach would be walking into next season.
The other more pertinent reason is that rebuilds take time. Sure there are examples of coaches "rebuilding" in 2 years or less but the long term data on them is terrible. Most either get poached by a bigger school or are unable to maintain their initial success and eventually get fired. The most successful rebuilds long term take 4-6 years before they have a team going to the NCAA tournament multiple years in a row.
I don't disagree, but I have to admit there is something missing about Wojo's ability to motivate his players. I just can't believe a player like Koby can succeed at Utah and be such a bust here.
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I would give Stan the job also.As much as it hurts to say this I don't think MU will be able to get a quality experienced Coach.Just my opinion
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Lol. This is a tournament team this year. Take a chill pill.
Tourney Team this year means nothing. It's basically a participation ribbon with all of the parity in college basketball. Teams 1-60 aren't that much different in terms of talent..... maybe one good player away from being competitive with top #5.
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Honestly, it would be pretty cool if they tried it. Absolutely nothing to lose at this point, and Markus is Stan’s player. But there’s no way Scholl and Lovell have the balls to make a move like that.
Why wouldn’t they give Stan a chance? He has been very active in all our re ruining. What did we think when they hired Buzz? I think we were thinking, “what. This is the best we can do?!” Stan has been active during games, talks to players when they come out and in huddles etc. wouldn’t be that great a risk. But Wojo might stay. And grow, Hmm
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I would give Stan the job also.As much as it hurts to say this I don't think MU will be able to get a quality experienced Coach.Just my opinion
I think we would be able to get a coach who is either a more accomplished assistant or mid major head coach. Either would be preferable to the top assistant of a failed head coach.
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What MU coach in the past 30 years took 5 years to build a competitive team?
As proven last night, calling this team "competitive" (at least on a consistent basis) is a stretch.
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I think we would be able to get a coach who is either a more accomplished assistant or mid major head coach. Either would be preferable to the top assistant of a failed head coach.
I'd stay away from top assistants of a good coach. We got burned on that once.
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Disagree with the 4-6 year requirement. A quick review of Marquette's history and one notes that Kevin O'Neill had the Warriors in the tourney in year 3, and Sweet 16 in year 4.
Marquette was beyond a dumpster fire when he arrived, someone had stolen the dumpster.
This is absolutely true.
I keep bumping into Wojo's ceiling and it is bruising my shins. I, for one, would welcome a dumpster fire at this point on the belief that the MU program's ceiling with another coach is far higher than the slop we have been seeing.
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Fluffy MU went the Mid major route twice and both were disasters.Bob Dukiet and Mike Deane.Neither could recruit a lick.I will pass on that option.Accomplished assistants such as Dwayne Stephens, Norm Roberts, Kenny Payne, Bino Ransom,Sherman Dilliard and Jon Scheyer.I don't think I would hire any of those guys over Stan.
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Fluffy MU went the Mid major route twice and both were disasters.Bob Dukiet and Mike Deane.Neither could recruit a lick.I will pass on that option.Accomplished assistants such as Dwayne Stephens, Norm Roberts, Kenny Payne, Bino Ransom,Sherman Dilliard and Jon Scheyer.I don't think I would hire any of those guys over Stan
This.
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Wojo walked into a dumpster fire of a roster.
If wojo gets canned, his replacements walks into a similar dumpster fire (all recruits de-commit, a couple transfer out).
3-5 years from then and Marquette might be successful again.
yep. And by then, all the same people will be turning on that coach. Its a vicious cycle.
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All BS.KO walked into a dumpster fire after Dukiet was fired and turned it around pretty quickly even being in an inferior league which makes recruiting harder.Crean had a terrible roster when he was hired after Deane got fired and he turned it around quickly also.I just think Wojo does not have it.I would hire Stan.I think he would do a good job.
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People complain about Wojo only having recruiting assistants on the bench and want an experienced X’s and O’s Guy (which is Rob Judson). Why would we think Stan is any better of an Xs and Os coach than Wojo?
Maybe we get Beilein and he brings Yacklich along. I’d also be excited with TJO who has had success as a head coach.
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Cheebs,sometimes you have to give a person a chance.You may hit the lottery.If MU does not give Buzz a chance where is he today?It is like the college graduate that can't get hired because of no experience.KO and Crean were pretty good for MU with no experience
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Cheebs,sometimes you have to give a person a chance.You may hit the lottery.If MU does not give Buzz a chance where is he today?It is like the college graduate that can't get hired because of no experience.KO and Crean were pretty good for MU with no experience
KO and Crean were both assistants for Final Four level programs. I mean, under your logic, they could literally hire anyone because "you may hit the lottery" and "they just need a chance."
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Fluffy MU went the Mid major route twice and both were disasters.Bob Dukiet and Mike Deane.Neither could recruit a lick.I will pass on that option.Accomplished assistants such as Dwayne Stephens, Norm Roberts, Kenny Payne, Bino Ransom,Sherman Dilliard and Jon Scheyer.I don't think I would hire any of those guys over Stan.
the revisionist history about Deane is in full effect. Yeah, Deane had his share of misses (Polo, Miller, Hester) but he also brought in some solid to very good pieces in Wardle, Cordell, Jon Harris, Nnamaka, Mike Bargan, Jarod Lovette (before his personal issues took over). DeMarcus Minor had a nice career at Baylor after leaving. Deane just never could close on an alpha. Alton Mason was what killed Deane, the kid was ripping up Hutch in practice but couldn't handle the academics, so Deane stopped recruiting academic risk kids. He also had to recruit to the Old Gym and could not recruit JUCO's. I'd still take an accomplished mid-major head coach over the right-hand man to Wojo, the guy primarily responsible for the current roster.
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Fluffy hate to tell you but Wojo was an assistant on Final Four teams also.How has that worked out.Has no relevance.Billy Hoyle KO had to recruit to Old Gym also.All excuses.Deane sucked at recruiting period.I don't think you want to go there between KO recruiting and Deane recruiting
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Stan seems likable and an ideal recruiter, but what the heck makes anyone think he's some ideal candidate to take over for Wojo? If MU is going to move on I want them looking for the best of the best this time. Guys with a proven track record. The school has the money and resources to bring in big names. Even if they're older I'm fine with that. But I don't see Stan Johnson as the answer.
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Markusquette is MU going to pay $4 million?
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Stan seems likable and an ideal recruiter, but what the heck makes anyone think he's some ideal candidate to take over for Wojo? If MU is going to move on I want them looking for the best of the best this time. Guys with a proven track record. The school has the money and resources to bring in big names. Even if they're older I'm fine with that. But I don't see Stan Johnson as the answer.
If Wojo left (say Wake) then maybe you think about Stan. Otherwise, you don't fire a guy to hire his second in charge. You fire to make real change, not more of the same.
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Fluffy hate to tell you but Wojo was an assistant on Final Four teams also.How has that worked out.Has no relevance.Billy Hoyle KO had to recruit to Old Gym also.All excuses.Deane sucked at recruiting period.I don't think you want to go there between KO recruiting and Deane recruiting
Of course its relevent. It just doesn't always work out. How many currently successful head coaches were one time assistants for a P6 coach who never won an NCAA tournament game?
Now give me the list of currently successful head coaches who were the one time assistant for a P6 coach who made the Final Four?
My guess is the latter dwarfs the former significantly.
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Stan seems likable and an ideal recruiter, but what the heck makes anyone think he's some ideal candidate to take over for Wojo? If MU is going to move on I want them looking for the best of the best this time. Guys with a proven track record. The school has the money and resources to bring in big names. Even if they're older I'm fine with that. But I don't see Stan Johnson as the answer.
Exactly...I'm so tired of people thinking they can't land an established name coach. They can..if they try hard enough.
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I'm to the point where I don't really give a crap about the recruiting class anymore. Wojo has had 5 stars, 4 stars, top 100 guys, top 50 guys, McDonalds All Americans, College All American, proven grad transfers and traditional transfers- and he hasn't accomplished crap. Why should we worry so much about possibly losing a recruit? Why would this go round be any different?
The raw talent the program has had in the Wojo years has not been the problem, there are coaches out there that could have done a hell of a lot more with some of these rosters.
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Markusquette is MU going to pay $4 million?
MU COULD pay whatever it took...for example, and this is JUST an example...if Brad Stevens said he'd take the job for 10Mill a year...MU without question could find $10 mill a year to pay him.
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Sometimes it doesn't work out.LOL
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MU COULD pay whatever it took...for example, and this is JUST an example...if Brad Stevens said he'd take the job for 10Mill a year...MU without question could find $10 mill a year to pay him.
Uhh...yeah....I think that would throw the budget off just a bit.
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I'm to the point where I don't really give a crap about the recruiting class anymore. Wojo has had 5 stars, 4 stars, top 100 guys, top 50 guys, McDonalds All Americans, College All American, proven grad transfers and traditional transfers- and he hasn't accomplished crap. Why should we worry so much about possibly losing a recruit? Why would this go round be any different?
The raw talent the program has had in the Wojo years has not been the problem, there are coaches out there that could have done a hell of a lot more with some of these rosters.
This is EXACTLY right...I've watched these MU teams under Wojo and thought, man a different Coach and this season would have been so much better. A different coach and MU wins the BE last year. No doubt in my mind.
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Sometimes it doesn't work out.LOL
It doesn't. Clearly. But the chances of it working out are better if the assistant was an assistant for a successful coach.
That's a much more logical point than "we might hit the lottery."
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muguru let's get one then.You can get a lot of good coaches for $5 million.Why hasn't it been done already?
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Uhh...yeah....I think that would throw the budget off just a bit.
Without knowing any of them personally, I'd be willing to bet that if Scholl called the biggest donors and said "I can get us Brad Stevens for 10 million a year", there would be checks on his desk to cover it before he even hung up the phone.
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muguru let's get one then.You can get a lot of good coaches for $5 million.Why hasn't it been done already?
Honestly because as much as MU spends on their program, they always want to go as cheap as possible with a coach. No clue why, that's just the sense I get. It's maddening.
Also, I am 100% convinced that for this admin, winning at the highest levels isn't as important to them as it was to Wild/Cords. I think for this admin, graduating the kids, and them staying out of trouble is the main thing, and whatever results they get on the court are a bonus.
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Without knowing any of them personally, I'd be willing to bet that if Scholl called the biggest donors and said "I can get us Brad Stevens for 10 million a year", there would be checks on his desk to cover it before he even hung up the phone.
Marquette's last three hires have been assistants. Giving someone their first shot is always going to be the economical path. I'm not at all convinced Scholl would see a flood of checks, even if reincarnated Al showed up asking for the job.
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Let see Fluffy.Tommy Amaker a Coach K protege sucked at Michigan,Jeff Capel another from Coach K tree washed out at Oklahoma,Johnny Dawkins at Stanford another from Coach K and Mike Deane was under Jud Heathcote and was bad.Won with KO players and then when they all graduated MU sucked.There are more.Has no relevance.
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mu guru guess what? When the money stops coming in and attendance starts dropping at a significant rate I bet the administration will care then.
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Marquette's last three hires have been assistants. Giving someone their first shot is always going to be the economical path. I'm not at all convinced Scholl would see a flood of checks, even if reincarnated Al showed up asking for the job.
Otzelberger is set to make $1.2 next year, seems like MU could afford him.
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Otzelberger is set to make $1.2 next year, seems like MU could afford him.
Agreed. They definitely could, I'm more leaning toward the "they aren't shelling out $10M no matter who walks through the door" argument.
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It doesn't. Clearly. But the chances of it working out are better if the assistant was an assistant for a successful coach.
That's a much more logical point than "we might hit the lottery."
It really depends on the coach. Ive said before, Coach K is such a totalitarian dictator figure at Duke, I think his assistants are a bit stunted as a result. Look at all of them who took "major" jobs
Chris Collins (Nortwestern) - More or less failed
Johnny Dawkins (Stanford)- 1 NCAA appearance in 8 seasons, and that season he had 3 NBA players on the team but didn't even make the tourney the year before
Tommy Amaker (Seton Hall/Michigan)- Managed to parlay 1 NCAA tourney appearance in 4 years at SH into the Michigan gig, failed there. 1 NCAA appearance in a combined 10 seasons at the 2 schools.
Quin Synder (Missouri)- Flamed out, but had a good few years, though he took over a good NCAA caliber team from Norm Stewart
The two most successful assistants are Mike Brey and Jeff Capel. But Brey went and cut his teeth at a lower level at Delaware before ND. And Capel cut his teeth at VCU, but then bad at Oklahoma except for having Blake Griffin.
Jon Scheyer is gonna be a hot name in the next few years, and short of him going to a mid major, I have no doubt he's gonna be a failure as well. The track record doesn't indicate anything otherwise. Recruiting but no Xs and Os
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Wojo walked into a dumpster fire of a roster.
If wojo gets canned, his replacements walks into a similar dumpster fire (all recruits de-commit, a couple transfer out).
3-5 years from then and Marquette might be successful again.
So basically you are saying that every new coach is basically in the same position, unless there is a unique thing like the three amigos in year one...
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Let see Fluffy.Tommy Amaker a Coach K protege sucked at Michigan,Jeff Capel another from Coach K tree washed out at Oklahoma,Johnny Dawkins at Stanford another from Coach K and Mike Deane was under Jud Heathcote and was bad.Won with KO players and then when they all graduated MU sucked.There are more.Has no relevance.
No no.
You aren't following simple logic. I said that the chances are much greater that you would succeed if you were an assistant for a coach who was successful at the highest levels. I never said it was a guaranty.
To prove my point, name a current, successful P6 coach who was an assistant to someone like Wojo - a coach who never won a NCAA tournament game.
Until then, I'm going to say that my logic is much more well grounded than your "maybe we'll hit the lottery" idea.
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Honestly because as much as MU spends on their program, they always want to go as cheap as possible with a coach. No clue why, that's just the sense I get. It's maddening.
How and why MU spends so much on basketball has been repeatedly explained. It's mostly because they have to rent out Fiserv. They don't have gobs of money to drop on a coach like the likes of Kentucky or Louisville.
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To prove my point, name a current, successful P6 coach who was an assistant to someone like Wojo - a coach who never won a NCAA tournament game.
Not that I really care one way or the other, but how about Greg McDermott and Scott Drew?
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Litehouse those are two good ones.I am sure there are others.Thanks for proving my point.You either can coach or you can't coach.Doesn't matter what school you are at as an assistant.
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Not that I really care one way or the other, but how about Greg McDermott and Scott Drew?
Neither were assistants before their current gigs. Both were mid-major coaches prior.
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Litehouse those are two good ones.I am sure there are others.Thanks for proving my point.You either can coach or you can't coach.Doesn't matter what school you are at as an assistant.
LOL no. Don't move the goalposts now.
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You are right even though Drew coached only 1 year at Valpo.I will take Stan any day of the week instead of guys like Dukiet and Deane.That is my opinion and you have the right to disagree.Whoever the Coach is next year better get some guards that can handle it and shoot it or it will not matter
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Neither were assistants before their current gigs. Both were mid-major coaches prior.
Ahh, gotcha, I didn't catch that you meant coming directly from the assistant position.
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What about Wardle?
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What about Wardle?
I think it is quite evident that he can coach. He had a mini-tourn around at GB and his work at Bradley has been very impressive. I think if you are going the mid-major head coach route, he clicks all the boxes. Bonus that he's an alum.
Only question is if he can recruit at the P6 level.
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It really depends on the coach. Ive said before, Coach K is such a totalitarian dictator figure at Duke, I think his assistants are a bit stunted as a result. Look at all of them who took "major" jobs
Chris Collins (Nortwestern) - More or less failed
Johnny Dawkins (Stanford)- 1 NCAA appearance in 8 seasons, and that season he had 3 NBA players on the team but didn't even make the tourney the year before
Tommy Amaker (Seton Hall/Michigan)- Managed to parlay 1 NCAA tourney appearance in 4 years at SH into the Michigan gig, failed there. 1 NCAA appearance in a combined 10 seasons at the 2 schools.
Quin Synder (Missouri)- Flamed out, but had a good few years, though he took over a good NCAA caliber team from Norm Stewart
But in all fairness the Jazz don't seem to question his coaching and didn't Amaker have to clean up team hit by sanctions at the U of Keefe?
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Fluff
I'll take Wojo over Wardle.
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Fluff
I'll take Wojo over Wardle.
I wouldn't. I would much rather have a less talented team that punches above its weight than a talented team that underperforms.
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I think we would be able to get a coach who is either a more accomplished assistant or mid major head coach. Either would be preferable to the top assistant of a failed head coach.
That’s your opinion. Haven’t you ever worked somewhere where the top guy was just eating at morale, and then someone extremely talented just under him/her was promoted and the whole vibe changed for the better? Sometimes underlings like Stan are champing at the bit for a shot. Top bosses constrain those under them all the time. I truly feel Stan is kicking the barn down for a chance to be a head coach. Why not here?
Also, I truly feel Wojo is going to be a very good coach some day. He has had some bad luck. It’s been kind of a perfect storm working against him. One wonders if he hadn’t brought Joey here what would’ve transpired. I would not be upset if he were retained as HC. He’s got some serious work to do to save his job. You never know.
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I wouldn't. I would much rather have a less talented team that punches above its weight than a talented team that underperforms.
That's Mike Deane 2.0.
We should aim higher.
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I wouldn't. I would much rather have a less talented team that punches above its weight than a talented team that underperforms.
Very well framed
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That's Mike Deane 2.0.
We should aim higher.
I thought the same thing.
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That’s your opinion. Haven’t you ever worked somewhere where the top guy was just eating at morale, and then someone extremely talented just under him/her was promoted and the whole vibe changed for the better? Sometimes underlings like Stan are champing at the bit for a shot. Top bosses constrain those under them all the time. I truly feel Stan is kicking the barn down for a chance to be a head coach. Why not here?
Also, I truly feel Wojo is going to be a very good coach some day. He has had some bad luck. It’s been kind of a perfect storm working against him. One wonders if he hadn’t brought Joey here what would’ve transpired. I would not be upset if he were retained as HC. He’s got some serious work to do to save his job. You never know.
Lol, Is Wojo on the 10 year plan? After he gets his doctorate in coaching, he's going to win the Big East Tourney and then make a swift sweet 16 run?
Tell me...... in what year does Wojo start coaching a complex offense? When do we begin to see transition offense/defense?
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Also, I truly feel Wojo is going to be a very good coach some day. He has had some bad luck. It’s been kind of a perfect storm working against him. One wonders if he hadn’t brought Joey here what would’ve transpired. I would not be upset if he were retained as HC. He’s got some serious work to do to save his job. You never know.
Put a monkey in front of a keyboard for a long enough period of time and he’ll eventually type out Shakespeare’s Hamlet word for word. Similar to how I feel about Wojo winning big at the D1 level right now. He’ll have success eventually but it may not be worth the wait.
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I think it is quite evident that he can coach. He had a mini-tourn around at GB and his work at Bradley has been very impressive. I think if you are going the mid-major head coach route, he clicks all the boxes. Bonus that he's an alum.
Only question is if he can recruit at the P6 level.
That would be the question. if you look at what he has done at Bradley...not too bad. Think he only won about 6 games first year there but has won 20 or more past 3 years. Recruiting to the BEast would help some, but could he land some studs? Not sure.
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Fluff
I'll take Wojo over Wardle.
Think you are wrong on that one Goose. You have already viewed Wojo's performance, and it ain't good.
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That's Mike Deane 2.0.
We should aim higher.
I agree we should aim higher. I was simply stating who I would prefer between Wardle and Wojo and why.
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Lol, Is Wojo on the 10 year plan? After he gets his doctorate in coaching, he's going to win the Big East Tourney and then make a swift sweet 16 run?
Tell me...... in what year does Wojo start coaching a complex offense? When do we begin to see transition offense/defense?
Make no mistake, I’m getting impatient. Again, we’ve seen him produce a top ten offense before. The parts are just sputtering now, or maybe the parts were retrofitted to the wrong chassis. The former is out of his control, the latter is on him. Against DePaul, it seemed that a Markus mid-range pull-up was there all night, yet he would continuously attack too far in the paint. Couldn’t the coaches see this?
Watch the way some of our guys get up and down the court and it’s evident more than one guy is hurting. So, not sure there’s much transition O to be run. I will give you that our defense lacks cohesion and structure and is painfully inconsistent. My favorite MU teams to watch were always those that could really buckle down on D and get the crowd into it. To me, part of our collective angst against the students and crowd in general should actually be directed at the players and coaches for not getting back on D and not consistently stopping people. It wears on a crowd when just as the offense does something to ignite the stands, we trade baskets within 7-8 seconds because someone didn’t get back or a 3shooter was left wide open. In the half court D, Give me Tony Miller and Roney Eford overplaying the perimeter and funneling guards to Jimmy Mac when those guards were beat off the dribble. It was predictable but it worked. Either led to a steal, a bad pass turnover, or a Mac block. With our current D, oh yeah it can lead to lots of things, most of them bad for MU.
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What MU coach in the past 30 years took 5 years to build a competitive team?
Are you saying Coach Wojo didn’t have a competitive team in years 3, 4 and 5 in his first five years?
This team’s outside shooting has abandoned them, most notably Anim and Bailey. They were scoring prior to this skid, but not now.
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Wardle would be like my 20th option if I was only looking at mid major coaches
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watching V tonight, it occurred to me that early in the season we beat them. Since then what have we done -- a veteran team - V younger. Have we improved as much as they have? It seems to me that that is on the coach. Must also consider that players have definitely improved under Wojo, Theo, Marcus, Sacar, that also, it seems to me, is on the coach. Has the coach improved? I am not sure the decision is as clear as it is presented by some on this board.
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Are you saying Coach Wojo didn’t have a competitive team in years 3, 4 and 5 in his first five years?
This team’s outside shooting has abandoned them, most notably Anim and Bailey. They were scoring prior to this skid, but not now.
I think you missed the exchange of posts that lead to my question. A post suggested that it will take MU 5 years to become competitive with a new coach. I agree that Wojo and every other MU coach in the past 30 years has had MU competitive in less than 5 years.
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Wardle would be like my 20th option if I was only looking at mid major coaches
Neither of your post names apply on that statement.
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Return with coach Steve and a highly rated recruiting class of 5 and 4 star players coming off probably 3 NCAA bids in four years.
OR
Lose the recruiting class (highly likely), no NCAA or NIT next year, rebuild of a few years for a coach that likely is unproven at this level.
That appears to be the question on risk. I have read several members here say Wojo can only win with 4 and 5 star players. Isn’t that the ratings of the players coming in?
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Return with coach Steve and a highly rated recruiting class of 5 and 4 star players coming off probably 3 NCAA bids in four years.
OR
Lose the recruiting class (highly likely), no NCAA or NIT next year, rebuild of a few years for a coach that likely is unproven at this level.
That appears to be the question on risk. I have read several members here say Wojo can only win with 4 and 5 star players. Isn’t that the ratings of the players coming in?
Let’s see how this thing plays out. As they said in LetItRide, there’s a very fine line between winning and losing...”yeah, the finish line.”
One of my coaching buddies said “It looks like Wojo has lost the team”.
My other coaching buddy disagreed and said, “A couple breaks go your way and guys start believing again, and you guys can definitely go on a big March run...you have Markus Howard, and he’s very hard to prepare for when you don’t see him all the time.”
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My other coaching buddy disagreed and said, “A couple breaks go your way and guys start believing again, and you guys can definitely go on a big March run...you have Markus Howard, and he’s very hard to prepare for when you don’t see him all the time.”
Gameplan to beat Marquette
Defense:
Trap or double team Markus Howard on every possession. Triple team if required. Force other guys on the floor to make open shots.
Offense:
Run high ball screens and dribble penetration for your best scorer, mixed with Pick and roll.
The things the team does not do well are not secrets at this point.
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Return with coach Steve and a highly rated recruiting class of 5 and 4 star players coming off probably 3 NCAA bids in four years.
OR
Lose the recruiting class (highly likely), no NCAA or NIT next year, rebuild of a few years for a coach that likely is unproven at this level.
That appears to be the question on risk. I have read several members here say Wojo can only win with 4 and 5 star players. Isn’t that the ratings of the players coming in?
If next year was MU's last year of DI basketball I'd go with the first option.
Looking for a future MU team that can win the Big East and make some deep runs in the NCAA, I'd go with option 2.
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Remember there is always the possibility that 5 years post-Wojo could be even worse. So for those who are ready to forfeit next year's class for a complete rebuild should have that in mind.
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The incoming commits will more than likely be gone as where they go is typically greatly tied to the coaches that recruited them. With the incoming commits being highly sought, they have other options if the coaching staff changes. MU fans will need a really really iron stomach next year if they thought this year was tough to watch. Year 2 of a rebuild would probably be better, but highly doubtful if anywhere near an NCAA bid. If a miracle works, year 3 may have a NCAA tourney team. Glad we are patient fans.
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The incoming commits will more than likely be gone as where they go is typically greatly tied to the coaches that recruited them. With the incoming commits being highly sought, they have other options if the coaching staff changes. MU fans will need a really really iron stomach next year if they thought this year was tough to watch. Year 2 of a rebuild would probably be better, but highly doubtful if anywhere near an NCAA bid. If a miracle works, year 3 may have a NCAA tourney team. Glad we are patient fans.
KO, Crean, Buzz and Wojo all had MU dancing in three years. I guess miracles are common at MU. ;)
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The incoming commits will more than likely be gone as where they go is typically greatly tied to the coaches that recruited them. With the incoming commits being highly sought, they have other options if the coaching staff changes. MU fans will need a really really iron stomach next year if they thought this year was tough to watch. Year 2 of a rebuild would probably be better, but highly doubtful if anywhere near an NCAA bid. If a miracle works, year 3 may have a NCAA tourney team. Glad we are patient fans.
I'd rather suck completely for two years (debatable that even happens) than go 9-9 in Big East play for the next 13 years.
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Yes, maybe MU has been blessed with miracles. Maybe there is one more out there for us, maybe not. A top 10 recruiting class is a nice thing to have in ones hand. Versus a new coach in the bush.
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Yes, maybe MU has been blessed with miracles. Maybe there is one more out there for us, maybe not. A top 10 recruiting class is a nice thing to have in ones hand. Versus a new coach in the bush.
Have you ever seen the movie Groundhog Day? It's got Bill Murray.
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The incoming commits will more than likely be gone as where they go is typically greatly tied to the coaches that recruited them. With the incoming commits being highly sought, they have other options if the coaching staff changes. MU fans will need a really really iron stomach next year if they thought this year was tough to watch. Year 2 of a rebuild would probably be better, but highly doubtful if anywhere near an NCAA bid. If a miracle works, year 3 may have a NCAA tourney team. Glad we are patient fans.
I'm sorry but three to four years into a rebuild at a place like MU is a realistic expectation for not just an NCAA bid but a win or two in the Big Dance. KO did it in year 4. Year 5 we were in the Sweet 16. Crean had us back in at year 3, granted, with D Wade. Year 4 was a Final Four. Buzz had us in for 5 of 6 years - and year 1 he lost all of Crean's recruits if I recall correctly.
People need to get over this fallacy that dumping Wojo will be some insurmountable setback. History proves it false. The insurmountable setback would be to allow this mediocrity to continue with the hope that it will someday, maybe, get better. Six years says that it is not going to happen.
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Have you ever seen the movie Groundhog Day? It's got Bill Murray.
Sure, more than once. Funny flick. Especially where Bill Murray realizes whatever he does to himself, it doesn't matter, the next morning he will be back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N01vThrQ40Q
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I would say the Wojo dumpster fire was started by him when he ignored the Hausers valid complaint. No team wins with a one man offense.
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I think there's a difference in a rebuild - where a coach is fired/forced to leave - vs a rebuild where a coach moves on to a better job.
One is literally a rebuild with almost zero continuity. Think Wojo after buzz.
The other is continuity. Think Lavall at Butler (and like 3 coaches before that at Butler).
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I think there's a difference in a rebuild - where a coach is fired/forced to leave - vs a rebuild where a coach moves on to a better job.
One is literally a rebuild with almost zero continuity. Think Wojo after buzz.
The other is continuity. Think Lavall at Butler (and like 3 coaches before that at Butler).
Yep, KO and Crean too. I'm glad those two were given 10 years to get MU in the NCAA, Sweet Sixteen & Final Four. ::)
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I would say the Wojo dumpster fire was started by him when he ignored the Hausers valid complaint. No team wins with a one man offense.
Agreed.
Options two, three, and four have been terrible the last three weeks. Onus is on them to turn it around.
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Agreed.
Options two, three, and four have been terrible the last three weeks. Onus is on them to turn it around.
This roster is composed of the Big East POY and a bunch of guys who shouldn’t be more than 10-15 mpg players in the Big East. The onus was on the head guy to do better than that. He failed.
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This roster is composed of the Big East POY and a bunch of guys who shouldn’t be more than 10-15 mpg players in the Big East. The onus was on the head guy to do better than that. He failed.
Damn Buzz!!! I can't wait until 2025 when all of Buzz's players are gone. We can start to get a slight feel for how Wojo can coach then.
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Gameplan to beat Marquette
Defense:
Trap or double team Markus Howard on every possession. Triple team if required. Force other guys on the floor to make open shots.
Offense:
Run high ball screens and dribble penetration for your best scorer, mixed with Pick and roll.
The things the team does not do well are not secrets at this point.
I didn’t mean the way to beat MU wasn’t evident to non-BigEast teams. I meant that, until you actually face Markus on the floor, he’s hard to simulate, because of the way he attacks. Very few guards have mastered the hesitation dribble to the extent he has. How he creates separation both downhill and in reverse (I know the step back is common today, but not how quickly he executes it). You can say he’s easy to plan for all you want. Other than Ners, the best athlete on this board in his prime would be hopelessly confused AF trying to guard him. Now put him against a D1backcourt/wings that can guard but doesn’t face his style often, and I like our chances in an NCAA matchup.
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This roster is composed of the Big East POY and a bunch of guys who shouldn’t be more than 10-15 mpg players in the Big East. The onus was on the head guy to do better than that. He failed.
That's a different discussion irrelevant to my post.
Anim, McEwen, and Bailey have produced worthy supporting performances at different points this season. All three have been bad the last three weeks. They're leaving Markus on an island.
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I didn’t mean the way to beat MU wasn’t evident to non-BigEast teams. I meant that, until you actually face Markus on the floor, he’s hard to simulate, because of the way he attacks. Very few guards have mastered the hesitation dribble to the extent he has. How he creates separation both downhill and in reverse (I know the step back is common today, but not how quickly he executes it). You can say he’s easy to plan for all you want. Other than Ners, the best athlete on this board in his prime would be hopelessly confused AF trying to guard him. Now put him against a D1backcourt/wings that can guard but doesn’t face his style often, and I like our chances in an NCAA matchup.
We’re 0-2 in NCAA games using your theory, but you like our chances this year?!? Ok then.
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That's a different discussion irrelevant to my post.
Anim, McEwen, and Bailey have produced worthy supporting performances at different points this season. All three have been bad the last three weeks. They're leaving Markus on an island.
Player talent or player development, both point to the head coach. (unless you think the game plans have been bad, then it's Wojo's fault)
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Now put him against a D1backcourt/wings that can guard but doesn’t face his style often, and I like our chances in an NCAA matchup.
I like my chances in the PowerBall.
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That's a different discussion irrelevant to my post.
Anim, McEwen, and Bailey have produced worthy supporting performances at different points this season. All three have been bad the last three weeks. They're leaving Markus on an island.
Mediocre players are capable of producing worthy supporting performances from time to time. They can even be really good in short spurts. But at the end of the day when you add up the really good, really bad, the worthy and the unworthy you get who they are. And that’s mediocre, back up quality. You (and Wojo evidently) think the “answer” is hoping guys who should be back ups go through a good stretch and “step up”. I think the answer is recruiting legitimate starters to help carry the load.
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That's a different discussion irrelevant to my post.
Anim, McEwen, and Bailey have produced worthy supporting performances at different points this season. All three have been bad the last three weeks. They're leaving Markus on an island.
I know right? alone on that island to be hog tied on D by WhiteTrash and Hutch. Yep. Let’s get this triumvirate going! The timing is right for some good basketball. We know what we’re gonna get with Markus. The minnow is lost with the others right now.
Also, take Ben Hogan’s word for it: the harder you work, the luckier you get. The secret and the answers are in the dirt. Trust what you’ve trained. Have a source who said they’re working like it’s indeed condition critical.
I was absolutely shocked at how we didn’t show up pissed at the NCAAs after the Seton Hall BET referee debacle. It’s because of what we didn’t know was brewing or reaching a nadir with team chemistry. Well, guys, cue up 2020 and just about everyone including me (for the first time) is close to giving up on you. Time to prove us keyboard warriors wrong. Remember that great chemistry we had just a few weeks ago? Find it. This team should have a huge chip on its shoulder. Play loose and who gives a chit, as the meaties like to say. I hope in a few weeks Wojo and boys can say F all y’all. How you like me now?!
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Time to prove us keyboard warriors wrong. Remember that great chemistry we had just a few weeks ago? Find it. This team should have a huge chip on its shoulder. Play loose and who gives a chit, as the meaties like to say. I hope in a few weeks Wojo and boys can say F all y’all. How you like me now?!
From your lips to God's ears. Yes, please. Wojo, please prove us wrong and shut us MU fans up. I supported his extension last summer and now I feel like a fool. Please Wojo, make me look smart.
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From your lips to God's ears. Yes, please. Wojo, please prove us wrong and shut us MU fans up. I supported his extension last summer and now I feel like a fool. Please Wojo, make me look smart.
Wrong. I can admit when I’m wrong. I was wrong. We took a good stretch of basketball and stagnated off it. Listen, I know we don’t have any influence on how this team is gonna prep or play. Why not reserve judgment until the end of the season? I just don’t understand all the dick swinging on this board combined with negativity. I truly thought our fan base was better than this. If any of you are rooting for an MU loss at St. John’s, F#&K You and the lame horses you rode in on.
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Wrong. I can admit when I’m wrong. I was wrong. We took a good stretch of basketball and stagnated off it. Listen, I know we don’t have any influence on how this team is gonna prep or play. Why not reserve judgment until the end of the season? I just don’t understand all the dick swinging on this board combined with negativity. I truly thought our fan base was better than this. If any of you are rooting for an MU loss at St. John’s, F#&K You and the lame horses you rode in on.
I agree about anyone rooting against MU. Not my kind of fan. Look I love MU, flew halfway across the country with my family and spent $800 on 4 tickets to the Depaul game this year. If I was incharge of Wojo's future I would wait for the season to end before making any decisions.
BUT, this is fan board and shouldn't fairness allow fans to post supportive and crazy predictions of success while winning and be allowed to vent and point to Wojo's faults when we are having our second straight year-end melt-down?
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I agree about anyone rooting against MU. Not my kind of fan. Look I love MU, flew halfway across the country with my family and spent $800 on 4 tickets to the Depaul game this year. If I was incharge of Wojo's future I would wait for the season to end before making any decisions.
BUT, this is fan board and shouldn't fairness allow fans to post supportive and crazy predictions of success while winning and be allowed to vent and point to Wojo's faults when we are having our second straight year-end melt-down?
No worries. Wish all alums showed that kind of support. Yes. And Yes. It IS frustrating.
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Lenny is spot on. Outside of Howard, this team is made up of role players for any upper level team. These role players are capable of having big nights and they have done it, but that does not make impact players over the long haul. The level of talent on this team, and all of Wojo’s teams, is not where it needs to be for the program to have real success.
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Lenny is spot on. Outside of Howard, this team is made up of role players for any upper level team. These role players are capable of having big nights and they have done it, but that does not make impact players over the long haul. The level of talent on this team, and all of Wojo’s teams, is not where it needs to be for the program to have real success.
Correct. We have a nice roster of role players who occasionally deliver a great performance. There is no consistency. Hoping we can win Saturday and finish 9-9 in BE.
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Mediocre players are capable of producing worthy supporting performances from time to time. They can even be really good in short spurts. But at the end of the day when you add up the really good, really bad, the worthy and the unworthy you get who they are. And that’s mediocre, back up quality. You (and Wojo evidently) think the “answer” is hoping guys who should be back ups go through a good stretch and “step up”. I think the answer is recruiting legitimate starters to help carry the load.
My post is specific to this iteration of Marquette basketball. In these 30 games, we have a guy getting 13 and 4 at a 42% clip who has virtually disappeared the last three weeks. We have a Sophomore starter getting 7.5 and 4.5 playing off an All-American who has virtually disappeared the last three weeks. We have a starting guard who's in such a slump as to be benched nearly the entire second half of the Hall game.
Your reaction is the extreme. You take their poorest form and call their overall purpose "mediocre". I'm not asking for the opposite to your extreme. I'm not asking for all-conference performances from all three. I'm simply stating that those three players have been fine as supporting characters excepting these last three weeks. Pointing out they need to step up from terrible to adequate is not an earth shattering set of words.
A discussion we can have May through September is on Wojo's (in)ability to flesh out a program. Even if that shares the overall connection of Wojo, that's a different topic from my point here in this thread.
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Lenny is spot on. Outside of Howard, this team is made up of role players for any upper level team. These role players are capable of having big nights and they have done it, but that does not make impact players over the long haul. The level of talent on this team, and all of Wojo’s teams, is not where it needs to be for the program to have real success.
I agree with you on talent.
If this team is made up of role players and is picked to make the NCAA tournament does that not mean the coaches are pulling everything they can out of average role player talent?
Is not the level of talent from a recruiting rating increasing exponentially next year? If he is making average role players into NCAA tournament participants, what will the staff do with 4 and 5 star players?
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I agree with you on talent.
If this team is made up of role players and is picked to make the NCAA tournament does that not mean the coaches are pulling everything they can out of average role player talent?
Is not the level of talent from a recruiting rating increasing exponentially next year? If he is making average role players into NCAA tournament participants, what will the staff do with 4 and 5 star players?
Well this is the first time I've ever heard a claim that Wojo and his staff are great coaches that are superior at player development. Never from ProJo's or any independent press articles of MU or Wojo.
I guess if enough posts are written on MUScoop, we will hear everything.
Can you also enlighten us on Deane's superior recruiting?
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Is there any credence to this McEwen thumb injury that’s been discussed elsewhere?
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Is there any credence to this McEwen thumb injury that’s been discussed elsewhere?
Yes. He sat out the first game of Big East play because of it. Was wearing a brace and playing for awhile. Haven't been paying attention to see if he's still playing with the brace. No idea how much if at all it is impacting him now. I still think the bigger issue is mental.
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I have long felt that Wojo was underrated as a game coach and overrated as a recruiter. Not saying he's an elite game coach or a crappy recruiter....just that he's average in both. On paper it looks like the recruiting is improving going forward.
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I have long felt that Wojo was underrated as a game coach and overrated as a recruiter. Not saying he's an elite game coach or a crappy recruiter....just that he's average in both. On paper it looks like the recruiting is improving going forward.
On paper the recruiting has been good. Just a lot of guys not lviing up to the hype
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This roster is composed of the Big East POY and a bunch of guys who shouldn’t be more than 10-15 mpg players in the Big East. The onus was on the head guy to do better than that. He failed.
I cannot find fault with any of this. Marquette simply does not have a good roster.
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I agree with you on talent.
If this team is made up of role players and is picked to make the NCAA tournament does that not mean the coaches are pulling everything they can out of average role player talent?
Is not the level of talent from a recruiting rating increasing exponentially next year? If he is making average role players into NCAA tournament participants, what will the staff do with 4 and 5 star players?
Recurring rankings don’t matter. Top 100 recruits don’t matter. At least they didn’t matter when Wojo took over the program from Buzz. Wojo’s also had a fair amount of Top 100 recruits here. Unfortunately most transferred out..other than Markus and Bailey.
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Recurring rankings don’t matter. Top 100 recruits don’t matter. At least they didn’t matter when Wojo took over the program from Buzz. Wojo’s also had a fair amount of Top 100 recruits here. Unfortunately most transferred out..other than Markus and Bailey.
Top 100 recruiting rankings from two+ years ago don't matter when we have a year or more's worth of them actually playing high major basketball to judge them by.
Top 100 rankings matter before a recruit gets to campus because other than the few HS basketball gurus who go to and watch a lot of high level high school basketball, it is the only metric we have to judge the recruits by. It is notoriously inaccurate and while its okay to get excited about a highly ranked class, it should be understood that player may not live up to their ranking...and others may play way above theirs.
This really isn't a hard concept to understand.
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On paper the recruiting has been good. Just a lot of guys not lviing up to the hype
Has it been good on paper?
Ellenson was obviously a huge land but other than that? The rest of that class was a low top 100 in Haanif and three three stars. 2016 was solid with three players ranked between 50-100 (yes I know MH was higher before the reclass. 2017 was 4 three stars. 2018 was a class of 1 player that was ranked just outside the top 50. 2019 was a top 75 player and a guy ranked in the 300-400s.
2015 and 2016 were impressive to me. The next three classes were fine but lacked the big fish I was hoping Wojo would continue to land. He was close on several but couldn't land them. The Garcia signing gives me hope, adding Mane would really solidify it for me.
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Splitting hairs, but Heldt was RSCI top-100 in 2015 & top-75 according to two services.
I think Wojo can diagram plays, but he struggles when games have multiple adjustments. His Plan A & Plan B are generally good, but if it gets to Plan C, he's screwed. I'm also concerned about his lineup choices, because as Rob Lowe (not the actor) has noted on Twitter our most efficient lineups are the ones he uses the least.
Where I really worry is the development of the guys he recruits. Markus has made leaps and bounds, but where are the same strides and consistency from Cain, Bailey, and John? Is everything the fault of injuries and transfers? Why don't our players seem to be adding bulk at this level? Cain, Bailey, & Elliott look about the same as when they got there. Todd Smith did it with Crean's & Buzz's players, why not Wojo's? Is there less of a focus on physicality in the weight room from the staff, and if so do they not see how that allows guys like Mamu to kill us?
Next year's class looks great, but if you don't have a guy to coach them up, why would anyone expect results from that talent?
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Splitting hairs, but Heldt was RSCI top-100 in 2015 & top-75 according to two services.
I think Wojo can diagram plays, but he struggles when games have multiple adjustments. His Plan A & Plan B are generally good, but if it gets to Plan C, he's screwed. I'm also concerned about his lineup choices, because as Rob Lowe (not the actor) has noted on Twitter our most efficient lineups are the ones he uses the least.
Where I really worry is the development of the guys he recruits. Markus has made leaps and bounds, but where are the same strides and consistency from Cain, Bailey, and John? Is everything the fault of injuries and transfers? Why don't our players seem to be adding bulk at this level? Cain, Bailey, & Elliott look about the same as when they got there. Todd Smith did it with Crean's & Buzz's players, why not Wojo's? Is there less of a focus on physicality in the weight room from the staff, and if so do they not see how that allows guys like Mamu to kill us?
Next year's class looks great, but if you don't have a guy to coach them up, why would anyone expect results from that talent?
Bailey and John have gained weight and muscle if you look at their player specs. Cain to a lesser degree. Before someone says these stats are inflated, MU has Howard and Cain only gaining 5 lbs over three years, but Bailey, John and others 10 to 25 lbs over time period depending who they are.
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Recurring rankings don’t matter. Top 100 recruits don’t matter. At least they didn’t matter when Wojo took over the program from Buzz. Wojo’s also had a fair amount of Top 100 recruits here. Unfortunately most transferred out..other than Markus and Bailey.
Recruiting rankings don’t matter after the players arrive and play for awhile. This is how we know if players are truly worth their rating and see where they transferred down in level of play. It is true the incoming class may be overhyped, but we do not know yet. We do know the last class of Coach Williams was overhyped by where those players ended up finishing their careers and their output at MU.
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“They are who they thought they are”. Rankings matter...stars have broad ranges. Are there misses? Sure, but more often than not, it is because of off the court stuff.
Using 247, I would say these have been pretty accurate. The Top 100 have been the impact guys. The next tier have played hard but are inconsistent. And the next tier are flyers who washed out (Ike injury). To say rankings don’t matter is simply not true.
Jayce was a four star (87)
Ed was a four star (111)
Markus was a four star after reclassification (68) but a five originally
Koby was a three star (175)
Sacar was a three star (191)
Theo was a three star (204)
Greg was a three star (224)
Jamal was a three star (145)
Ike was a a three star (377)
Sam was a four star (83)
Joey was a four star (52)
Brendan was a four star (92)
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Top 100 recruiting rankings from two+ years ago don't matter when we have a year or more's worth of them actually playing high major basketball to judge them by.
Top 100 rankings matter before a recruit gets to campus because other than the few HS basketball gurus who go to and watch a lot of high level high school basketball, it is the only metric we have to judge the recruits by. It is notoriously inaccurate and while its okay to get excited about a highly ranked class, it should be understood that player may not live up to their ranking...and others may play way above theirs.
This really isn't a hard concept to understand.
You know what is a hard concept to understand? Why Wojo played the returning All Big East freshman, Deonte Burton an average of 15 minutes per game on a horse crap team.
Duane has a pretty good first year. JJJ was all over the place under Wojo. Luke was also inconsistent. And Dawson was a capable player.
Much like we’ve seen since that first year..guys have been highly inconsistent and all over the place in their production under Wojo.
It is NO surprise to me Wojo has been a bust. Was evident just watching his first year. And second. Completely clueless as it relates to roster combinations, rotations, and locker room management. Sometimes it takes more than just trying harder to be successful - you have to have some intellect, nuance, and smarts.
Not sure why this is such a hard concept for you to understand.
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You know what is a hard concept to understand? Why Wojo played the returning All Big East freshman, Deonte Burton an average of 15 minutes per game on a horse crap team.
Duane has a pretty good first year. JJJ was all over the place under Wojo. Luke was also inconsistent. And Dawson was a capable player.
Much like we’ve seen since that first year..guys have been highly inconsistent and all over the place in their production under Wojo.
It is NO surprise to me Wojo has been a bust. Was evident just watching his first year. And second. Completely clueless as it relates to roster combinations, rotations, and locker room management. Sometimes it takes more than just trying harder to be successful - you have to have some intellect, nuance, and smarts.
Not sure why this is such a hard concept for you to understand.
Goalposts moved
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Goalposts moved
Not at all Jesu. Only ones guilty of that are the die hard ProJos who have to dig deep into the package of pretzel logic to rationalize the underwhelming performance. Truly. It’s to the point of absolutely bizzaro. But doesn’t surprise me the level of pride and ego some of the ProJos have.
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You know what is a hard concept to understand? Why Wojo played the returning All Big East freshman, Deonte Burton an average of 15 minutes per game on a horse crap team.
Duane has a pretty good first year. JJJ was all over the place under Wojo. Luke was also inconsistent. And Dawson was a capable player.
Much like we’ve seen since that first year..guys have been highly inconsistent and all over the place in their production under Wojo.
It is NO surprise to me Wojo has been a bust. Was evident just watching his first year. And second. Completely clueless as it relates to roster combinations, rotations, and locker room management. Sometimes it takes more than just trying harder to be successful - you have to have some intellect, nuance, and smarts.
Not sure why this is such a hard concept for you to understand.
This is a massively different argument than "Wojo had former top 100 players so the roster was great." Roster management, player development, consistency, etc, those are actual legiitimate arguments. I don't agree with all of them but they are at least legitimate arguments.
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“They are who they thought they are”. Rankings matter...stars have broad ranges. Are there misses? Sure, but more often than not, it is because of off the court stuff.
Using 247, I would say these have been pretty accurate. The Top 100 have been the impact guys. The next tier have played hard but are inconsistent. And the next tier are flyers who washed out (Ike injury). To say rankings don’t matter is simply not true.
Jayce was a four star (87)
Ed was a four star (111)
Markus was a four star after reclassification (68) but a five originally
Koby was a three star (175)
Sacar was a three star (191)
Theo was a three star (204)
Greg was a three star (224)
Jamal was a three star (145)
Ike was a a three star (377)
Sam was a four star (83)
Joey was a four star (52)
Brendan was a four star (92)
Yes, rankings are good tools for giving broad projections on what to expect from an incoming freshman.
But when you are trying to project what you are going to get from a rising sophomore (or junior or senior), they mean nothing next to what that player's actual projection was the previous year.
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Yes, rankings are good tools for giving broad projections on what to expect from an incoming freshman.
But when you are trying to project what you are going to get from a rising sophomore (or junior or senior), they mean nothing next to what that player's actual projection was the previous year.
When does MU typically sign recruits, though? Senior year. It's like any other risk/reward situation. The probabilities improve with more history (sample size).
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Not at all Jesu. Only ones guilty of that are the die hard ProJos who have to dig deep into the package of pretzel logic to rationalize the underwhelming performance. Truly. It’s to the point of absolutely bizzaro. But doesn’t surprise me the level of pride and ego some of the ProJos have.
You absolutely moved from talking about rankings to talking about playing time. See TAMU post directly below yours
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This is a massively different argument than "Wojo had former top 100 players so the roster was great." Roster management, player development, consistency, etc, those are actual legiitimate arguments. I don't agree with all of them but they are at least legitimate arguments.
TF you gonna do when you first year head coach won’t hardly play you as a sophomore and former Top 50 recruit - Deonte/JJJ.
A coach with just a shred of common sense, upon taking the MU job, would have maxed out that sophomore class’s playing time. Ride or die with them. Why you’d bring in a one-year rental and max time of Derrick Wilson was beyond me.
Nothing simulated game experience and nothing builds confidence better than a coach who has your back. Wojo should have taken the potential lumps Year 1 maxing all of Duane, JJJ, Dawson, Deonte, Luke. I have zero doubt the team would have been any worse than the 4-14 effort turned in by Derrick and Carlino.
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I’d be all for Stan replacing Wojo. Stan clearly has great relationships with players and is a fantastic recruiter. He’s the reason some of our best players like Markus chose to come here. He’s even started to take over some of the game plan from Wojo in timeouts it seems. He clearly is able motivate and maybe even strategize with the players better in timeouts than Wojo. He’d be able to salvage most if not all of the incoming recruiting class assuming he was the lead recruiter on a lot of them. Garcia is the one I’m most concerned about where I’m not sure if he stays or leaves if Wojo is gone. I’d rather have Wojo stay and keep him for a year and see what he’s made of rather than Stan takeover and Garcia decommits.
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I’d be all for Stan replacing Wojo. Stan clearly has great relationships with players and is a fantastic recruiter. He’s the reason some of our best players like Markus chose to come here. He’s even started to take over some of the game plan from Wojo in timeouts it seems. He clearly is able motivate and maybe even strategize with the players better in timeouts than Wojo. He’d be able to salvage most if not all of the incoming recruiting class assuming he was the lead recruiter on a lot of them. Garcia is the one I’m most concerned about where I’m not sure if he stays or leaves if Wojo is gone. I’d rather have Wojo stay and keep him for a year and see what he’s made of rather than Stan takeover and Garcia decommits.
Utterly ridiculous
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I’d be all for Stan replacing Wojo. Stan clearly has great relationships with players and is a fantastic recruiter. He’s the reason some of our best players like Markus chose to come here. He’s even started to take over some of the game plan from Wojo in timeouts it seems. He clearly is able motivate and maybe even strategize with the players better in timeouts than Wojo. He’d be able to salvage most if not all of the incoming recruiting class assuming he was the lead recruiter on a lot of them. Garcia is the one I’m most concerned about where I’m not sure if he stays or leaves if Wojo is gone. I’d rather have Wojo stay and keep him for a year and see what he’s made of rather than Stan takeover and Garcia decommits.
Apparently you watch the games with Otule's glass eye.
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Part of the reason Stan has those great relationships is because that's his role. He's the good cop. Doesn't mean he would succeed in the big chair or be able to translate those skills in a promoted seat. It's a different job.
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Why do we all have to assume that a new coach means a complete rebuild and several horrible years? It might? But it's certainly not guaranteed. Look at Buzz, looks at Gard, look at Jordan (Butler)...it's not that it always works that way but it's not impossible either. I still believe that MARQUETTE has a lot to offer and Wojo is one variable in that. Regardless of coach, there are a lot of reasons to play here.
Who here is not FAR more impressed by Coach Duffy and the women's team this year than the men's? Picked to finish 9th, gets the team to buy-in and scrap all season to a 2nd place finish. Give me that team, that attitude, that heart.
Wojo never exceeds expectations and I can't stand listening to him anymore. The timeout debacle at Butler was bad and today was bad and it's mostly been hard to cheer for. I am super excited about Justin, Oso, & Dawson. I would love to see them here with a new coach but I don't see all 4 of those things happening.
Far enough points but buzz had the 3 amigos and Lazar carrying over and saying they would stay if buzz stayed, and the coach was lured away by Indiana. If Marquette had fired crean I'm sure buzz would have left too as would those big 4. Plus, buzz worked the juco circuit to instantly refuel and my impression is Marquette wanted to get out of the juco circuit.
I happened to leave another game on the other night when they were running through each big east teams history, and the players recounting the 3 straight home losses for Marquette and booing them on senior night and even throwing things at the players and the coach crying in the locker room - and that was of course the Marquette fan reaction in 1977 with a team that would win the national championship.
With the big east so competitive right now I believe we could have a 2-20 season if wojonand the commits are gone. But who knows, no way to truly read the future so admit I could be wrong and you could be right.
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When does MU typically sign recruits, though? Senior year. It's like any other risk/reward situation. The probabilities improve with more history (sample size).
Not so, sample size increases precision not probability. Most people crave large sample size, I'm for small sample size. The large sample size crowd never have enough data to make a decision.
You don't have to watch a player for hours to see if he is slow or fast, can jump or not, can move laterally, has technique or not, is a hard worker or not, can concentrate or not.
The most underutilized tool that coach Wojciechowski has is the bench. It does not take a large sample size to recognise who has it on any given night.
Intuition may be the missing and necessary trate around here. Too much data not enough action.
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Well this is the first time I've ever heard a claim that Wojo and his staff are great coaches that are superior at player development. Never from ProJo's or any independent press articles of MU or Wojo.
I guess if enough posts are written on MUScoop, we will hear everything.
Can you also enlighten us on Deane's superior recruiting?
I said they were great coaches?
One one hand the complaints are the coaches stink. On the other hand the complaints are the talent isn’t good enough. But those weakly talent players are likely to go to the NCAA tournament next week. Are the weakly talented players doing it despite the coaching? That sounds like something great players might do, not players lacking in talent.
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“They are who they thought they are”. Rankings matter...stars have broad ranges. Are there misses? Sure, but more often than not, it is because of off the court stuff.
Using 247, I would say these have been pretty accurate. The Top 100 have been the impact guys. The next tier have played hard but are inconsistent. And the next tier are flyers who washed out (Ike injury). To say rankings don’t matter is simply not true.
Jayce was a four star (87)
Ed was a four star (111)
Markus was a four star after reclassification (68) but a five originally
Koby was a three star (175)
Sacar was a three star (191)
Theo was a three star (204)
Greg was a three star (224)
Jamal was a three star (145)
Ike was a a three star (377)
Sam was a four star (83)
Joey was a four star (52)
Brendan was a four star (92)
Based on this, surprised we are even sniffing a winning record in a conference this strong. Here we are doing exactly that.
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Based on this, surprised we are even sniffing a winning record in a conference this strong. Here we are doing exactly that.
Yep, 8-10 is sure sniffing. We should be winning/competing for conference titles not sniffing at the plane of .500
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I said they were great coaches?
One one hand the complaints are the coaches stink. On the other hand the complaints are the talent isn’t good enough. But those weakly talent players are likely to go to the NCAA tournament next week. Are the weakly talented players doing it despite the coaching? That sounds like something great players might do, not players lacking in talent.
It's an interesting discussion. If the players are poor, it must be good coaching. If the coaching is bad, the players must be more talented
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Yep, 8-10 is sure sniffing. We should be winning/competing for conference titles not sniffing at the plane of .500
Some years we will be middle of the pack (this year) and some years competing for conference championships (last year).
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Some years we will be middle of the pack (this year) and some years competing for conference championships (last year).
Change to “and some years pissing away a conference championship (last year).”
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Some years we will be middle of the pack (this year) and some years competing for conference championships (last year).
Cheeks
2 years we’ve finished in the first division. 4 years we’ve finished in the second division. One year we competed for a championship (the weakest year in BE history) - and lost. One year we tied DePaul for last. Middling if you don’t count years 1 and 2, worse if you do. So, “meh” or slightly below “meh”. Whoopee!
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Change to “and some years pissing away a conference championship (last year).”
Absolutely right. MU did not compete last year. The soiled themselves down the stretch