https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/12/21/markus-howard-marquette-shares-scoring-record-with-brother-jordan-howard/
Just another reminder of how lucky we are to have this guy on our team and at our school. It sounds like he has an amazing, close and well-grounded family.
The future is bright for Markus, wherever he ends up.
Wonder if we could've had the highest scoring brothers at a single school too if they didn't want so many shots for Ed, Theo, and the others at MU...
He reads Pete Carroll's books? Doesnt he know Pete is a cheater?
I would be incredibly proud to have Markus on our team if he didn't score a single point. He is a quality human being not even counting his performance on the court.
Just wish he'd escape the FCA crap. Incompatible with Cura Personalis.
Quote from: tower912 on December 21, 2019, 03:56:17 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/12/21/markus-howard-marquette-shares-scoring-record-with-brother-jordan-howard/
Very pleased he came to MU and the staff landed him. We are very lucky to have him as an ambassador.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 21, 2019, 10:06:02 PM
Way to ruin a nice thread about Markus....good job.
LOL It's anything but "ruined", Snowflake.
It is a really nice thread about a special and thoughtful young man who is much more than a basketball player. And finds inspiration in the writings of Pete Carroll. I celebrate everything about him in the article.
I don't, however, celebrate your total lack or self awareness,
a sense of humor or any appreciation of irony. Get over yourself.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 21, 2019, 10:33:32 PM
LOL It's anything but "ruined", Snowflake.
It is a really nice thread about a special and thoughtful young man who is much more than a basketball player. And finds inspiration in the writings of Pete Carroll. I celebrate everything about him in the article.
I don't, however, celebrate your total lack or self awareness,
a sense of humor or any appreciation of irony. Get over yourself.
Hey Lenny, what do you think about Markus Howard and his contributions to Marquette University and Marquette basketball?
You two need to get a room.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 21, 2019, 05:31:32 PM
Wonder if we could've had the highest scoring brothers at a single school too if they didn't want so many shots for Ed, Theo, and the others at MU...
Anytime you lose players to MSU & UVA, it's definitely bc those players are selfish 🤦🏻♂️.
Quote from: The Lens on December 22, 2019, 06:40:07 AM
Anytime you lose players to MSU & UVA, it's definitely bc those players are selfish 🤦🏻♂️.
I'd be more concerned about the NPOY candidate on your team instead of Sam, Vanilla Soft Serve and their legal pad.
Bailey and Cain showing why they should've been getting minutes from Joey all season.
Quote from: PTM on December 22, 2019, 07:23:25 AM
I'd be more concerned about the NPOY candidate on your team instead of Sam, Vanilla Soft Serve and their legal pad.
Bailey and Cain showing why they should've been getting minutes from Joey all season.
Wins in March > individual awards
Quote from: PTM on December 22, 2019, 07:23:25 AM
Bailey and Cain showing why they should've been getting minutes from Joey all season.
This. Last year's team was heavy at forward, light at guard. Playing a freshman coming off ankle surgery 30 minutes a game was one of Wojo's poorer decisions. Led to to hard contact with the freshman wall that Joey never really pushed through. Bailey and Cain could and should have played more.
Quote from: The Lens on December 22, 2019, 07:28:12 AM
Wins in March > individual awards
Playing Bailey and Cain could have led to more wins in March.
Quote from: The Lens on December 22, 2019, 07:28:12 AM
Wins in March > individual awards
Can you handle watching Vanilla Soft Serve and his effort last March?
Quote from: PTM on December 22, 2019, 07:23:25 AM
I'd be more concerned about the NPOY candidate on your team instead of Sam, Vanilla Soft Serve and their legal pad.
Bailey and Cain showing why they should've been getting minutes from Joey all season.
Sounds like Wojo was doing everything he could to keep House Hauser happy last year....didn't work, but he is blame nonetheless.
I wish the boys well, Sam is missed....Joey I'm sure will have a fine college career....I like the guys we have and like the guys coming in next year.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 22, 2019, 07:59:39 AM
Sounds like Wojo was doing everything he could to keep House Hauser happy last year....didn't work, but he is blame nonetheless.
I wish the boys well, Sam is missed....Joey I'm sure will have a fine college career....I like the guys we have and like the guys coming in next year.
Seconded.
Quote from: PTM on December 22, 2019, 07:23:25 AM
I'd be more concerned about the NPOY candidate on your team instead of Sam, Vanilla Soft Serve and their legal pad.
Bailey and Cain showing why they should've been getting minutes from Joey all season.
100% yes sir right here. jamal got the quickest hook for things jh was doing wrong routinely. but wojo succumbed to the hot breath on his neck from behind him...unfortunate all around. could have been coaching moments for most. jamal and brendon are playing like unleashed dogs
Quote from: The Lens on December 22, 2019, 07:28:12 AM
Wins in March > individual awards
Remind me how many wins Sam and Joey have in March combined.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 21, 2019, 10:52:46 PM
Hey Lenny, what do you think about Markus Howard and his contributions to Marquette University and Marquette basketball?
I think we can all agree that he's been a star on and off the court for Marquette University. I'm grateful for those who serve as his inspiration - God, his family, Pete Carroll, etc. - I'm sure you're in the same boat.
Quote from: The Lens on December 22, 2019, 06:40:07 AM
Anytime you lose players to MSU & UVA, it's definitely bc those players are selfish 🤦🏻♂️.
No doubt. They saw the light. They knew the key to our offense was to throw it into Ed Morrow and Theo John and let those two offensive forces go to work on the poor souls of the big men in the Big East. Unfortunate Wojo couldn't see that like those two superior basketball minds could.
Wojo should've made sure Theo and Ed got the ball and Markus and Herro weren't around. No need for selfish players like that.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 22, 2019, 11:18:15 AM
No doubt. They saw the light. They knew the key to our offense was to throw it into Ed Morrow and Theo John and let those two offensive forces go to work on the poor souls of the big men in the Big East. Unfortunate Wojo couldn't see that like those two superior basketball minds could.
Wojo should've made sure Theo and Ed got the ball and Markus and Herro weren't around. No need for selfish players like that.
No doubt Sam moved to UVA hunting more shots for himself. Very logical. LOL.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 22, 2019, 11:23:33 AM
No doubt Sam moved to UVA hunting more shots for himself. Very logical. LOL.
Like I said, I agree. We don't want the Herro's or the Markus's of the world. We want equal distribution of shots between guys like Ed Morrow, Theo John, Joseph Chartouney, etc.
Give me those guys. You can take your All Americans and your first round picks.
Hell. Run it like 5th grade basketball. Everyone gets equal minutes here!
Hate to rehash old debates, but the notion the Hausers left for any reason other than not wanting to play second and third fiddle to Markus is dumb (but maybe not dangerous ... maybe).
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 22, 2019, 08:55:24 AM
100% yes sir right here. jamal got the quickest hook for things jh was doing wrong routinely. but wojo succumbed to the hot breath on his neck from behind him...unfortunate all around. could have been coaching moments for most. jamal and brendon are playing like unleashed dogs
This was the core frustration I've had with Wojo since he took over. Consistency in approach and coaching is critical. It erodes confidence when a player knows he's on a short leash, and also adds resentment (mostly toward the coach) when you see some teammates not on that same leash.
I credit the hell out of Jamal maintaining a positive attitude through last season. Jamal still has needed to play quite well from the get go in games this season to get his run, BUT, Wojo has given him a bit more wiggle room to play through a few "mistakes."
Very pleased with how Wojo has coached this team this year. I was anticipating a pretty big slippage due to losing the Hausers - as in we'd be in the 50-60ish range in KenPom.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 11:57:52 AM
This was the core frustration I've had with Wojo since he took over. Consistency in approach and coaching is critical. It erodes confidence when a player knows he's on a short leash, and also adds resentment (mostly toward the coach) when you see some teammates not on that same leash.
Yeah there is no evidence that Wojo's quick hook for some players has been a problem. In fact Joey should have had a quicker hook and he wrote a letter in response.
It's all part of the coaching process most of which you aren't privy to.
There isn't a single coach in any sport at any level who had the same exact leash for every player on his team. It's dumb and naive to suggest there is. A turnover or bad shot by Markus will not and should not have the same reaction by Wojo as a turnover or bad shot by Symir.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 22, 2019, 12:36:48 PM
There isn't a single coach in any sport at any level who had the same exact leash for every player on his team. It's dumb and naive to suggest there is. A turnover or bad shot by Markus will not and should not have the same reaction by Wojo as a turnover or bad shot by Symir.
This ^^^
Quote from: wadesworld on December 22, 2019, 12:36:48 PM
There isn't a single coach in any sport at any level who had the same exact leash for every player on his team. It's dumb and naive to suggest there is. A turnover or bad shot by Markus will not and should not have the same reaction by Wojo as a turnover or bad shot by Symir.
Yup.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 22, 2019, 12:36:48 PM
There isn't a single coach in any sport at any level who had the same exact leash for every player on his team. It's dumb and naive to suggest there is. A turnover or bad shot by Markus will not and should not have the same reaction by Wojo as a turnover or bad shot by Symir.
Which is why I posted SOME teammates. Of course a superstar player gets more leash, yet once past your alpha player, there shouldn't be a lot of variance as to how you coach your guys.
Last year, Joey could miss early shots, have turnovers..and he'd remain in game. Jamal comes in and has a quick miss/turnover, frequently benched.
I know some here refuse to believe that if a player doesn't start the game ablaze, or have the "hot hand," that, that is proof positive the player will suck for the remainder of that game. Unfortunately, that is dumb and naive AF.
JC got a quick hook. Agreed. Should have gotten more run. Looking for an argument that isn't there
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 02:18:57 PM
Which is why I posted SOME teammates. Of course a superstar player gets more leash, yet once past your alpha player, there shouldn't be a lot of variance as to how you coach your guys.
Last year, Joey could miss early shots, have turnovers..and he'd remain in game. Jamal comes in and has a quick miss/turnover, frequently benched.
I know some here refuse to believe that if a player doesn't start the game ablaze, or have the "hot hand," that, that is proof positive the player will suck for the remainder of that game. Unfortunately, that is dumb and naive AF.
So is the idea that you know more than Wojo about proper substitution patterns.
Again I will point out that the guy Wojo supposedly gave preferential treatment to is gone. While the guy he supposedly didn't is still here.
So obviously it's not as simple as you would suggest.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 02:18:57 PM
Which is why I posted SOME teammates. Of course a superstar player gets more leash, yet once past your alpha player, there shouldn't be a lot of variance as to how you coach your guys.
Last year, Joey could miss early shots, have turnovers..and he'd remain in game. Jamal comes in and has a quick miss/turnover, frequently benched.
I know some here refuse to believe that if a player doesn't start the game ablaze, or have the "hot hand," that, that is proof positive the player will suck for the remainder of that game. Unfortunately, that is dumb and naive AF.
Tried to keep the Hausers happy, when so many here said he wasn't trying...didn't work. If Joey stayed, other guys leave. I know that makes people unhappy, but that's the way it goes.
Always tough when you are trying to coddle certain stars. I can only imagine here if Wojo benches Hauser or cut his minutes drastically and he pouted publicly how many would blast Wojo. No win position.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 22, 2019, 02:23:27 PM
So is the idea that you know more than Wojo about proper substitution patterns.
Again I will point out that the guy Wojo supposedly gave preferential treatment to is gone. While the guy he supposedly didn't is still here.
So obviously it's not as simple as you would suggest.
My argument was, and has been that there largely haven't been substitution patterns/consistent roles. What had been consistent was Wojo giving the quick hook to certain guys if they made a "mistake" such as missing a shot/turning the ball over - while others played through those mistakes.
Some of you guys just need to chill out and stop looking for an argument that isn't there. I think he's doing a better job (and good job) this year, and probably learned some from last year. So, those of you who have preached patience, appear validated - just wish it wouldn't have taken him 5 years and the transfer out of the Hausers to figure it out. 8-)
It was never a problem. You're the one creating something that's not there.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 22, 2019, 03:00:41 PM
It was never a problem. You're the one creating something that's not there.
Yeah. You are right. We've witnessed pure genius these last 5 years. Worst results at MU since Bob Dukiet, yet taking over the reigns after the 2nd best run in program history, while inheriting more Top 100 players on the roster that at any time since Al was coach.
Those facts aside, I am glad to see that in Year 6 it looks like he's getting it together.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 03:28:18 PM
Yeah. You are right. We've witnessed pure genius these last 5 years. Worst results at MU since Bob Dukiet, yet taking over the reigns after the 2nd best run in program history, while inheriting more Top 100 players on the roster that at any time since Al was coach.
Those facts aside, I am glad to see that in Year 6 it looks like he's getting it together.
Lol. Sticking with the idea that he had a loaded group to work with when he came in I see?
Maybe go back to dunking on people at the Y. Your basketball takes continue to suck. Even your beloved Bazz couldn't find a way to win with that group.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 03:28:18 PM
Yeah. You are right. We've witnessed pure genius these last 5 years. Worst results at MU since Bob Dukiet, yet taking over the reigns after the 2nd best run in program history, while inheriting more Top 100 players on the roster that at any time since Al was coach.
Those facts aside, I am glad to see that in Year 6 it looks like he's getting it together.
Substitution patterns were never a problem. You can insist otherwise but you'd be wrong.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 22, 2019, 03:31:13 PM
Lol. Sticking with the idea that he had a loaded group to work with when he came in I see?
Maybe go back to dunking on people at the Y. Your basketball takes continue to suck. Even your beloved Bazz couldn't find a way to win with that group.
I take this as a supreme compliment coming from you, bud. Thank you.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 22, 2019, 03:36:52 PM
Substitution patterns were never a problem. You can insist otherwise but you'd be wrong.
What were the problems?
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 03:28:18 PM
Yeah. You are right. We've witnessed pure genius these last 5 years. Worst results at MU since Bob Dukiet, yet taking over the reigns after the 2nd best run in program history, while inheriting more Top 100 players on the roster that at any time since Al was coach.
Those facts aside, I am glad to see that in Year 6 it looks like he's getting it together.
Worst results since Bob Dukiet...good Lord this is outstanding stupidity. Epic stupidity on the 100 nonsense and the Dukiet claim. EPIC STUPIDITY
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 04:07:22 PM
I take this as a supreme compliment coming from you, bud. Thank you.
What were the problems?
The main problem was, and continue to be, lack of adjustments in real time.
Vanilla Soft Serve consistently had one of the shittiest on-court demeanors at Marquette I had seen.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 22, 2019, 04:10:30 PM
Worst results since Bob Dukiet...good Lord this is outstanding stupidity. Epic stupidity on the 100 nonsense and the Dukiet claim. EPIC STUPIDITY
I'll hang up and listen...
Al McGuire 1964–77 295–80 .787
Hank Raymonds 1977–83 126–50 .716
Rick Majerus 1983–86 56–35 .615
Bob Dukiet 1986–89 39–46 .459
Kevin O'Neill 1989–94 86–62 .581
Mike Deane 1994–99 100–55 .645
Tom Crean 1999–08 190–96 .664
Buzz Williams 2008–14 139–69 .668
Steve Wojo 2014– 97–67 .591
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 07:01:20 PM
I'll hang up and listen...
Al McGuire 1964–77 295–80 .787
Hank Raymonds 1977–83 126–50 .716
Rick Majerus 1983–86 56–35 .615
Bob Dukiet 1986–89 39–46 .459
Kevin O'Neill 1989–94 86–62 .581
Mike Deane 1994–99 100–55 .645
Tom Crean 1999–08 190–96 .664
Buzz Williams 2008–14 139–69 .668
Steve Wojo 2014– 97–67 .591
According to this Mike Deane was a better coach than Kevin O'Neill and only marginally worse than Crean and Buzz.
So this obviously is a valuable way to measure success.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 07:01:20 PM
I'll hang up and listen...
Al McGuire 1964–77 295–80 .787
Hank Raymonds 1977–83 126–50 .716
Rick Majerus 1983–86 56–35 .615
Bob Dukiet 1986–89 39–46 .459
Kevin O'Neill 1989–94 86–62 .581
Mike Deane 1994–99 100–55 .645
Tom Crean 1999–08 190–96 .664
Buzz Williams 2008–14 139–69 .668
Steve Wojo 2014– 97–67 .591
Laughable
Last I checked, who you played...mattered. Not only that, some coaches inherited NCAA tournament teams, some had to rebuild entirely.
Absolutely laughable.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 22, 2019, 07:13:46 PM
According to this Mike Deane was a better coach than Kevin O'Neill and only marginally worse than Crean and Buzz.
So this obviously is a valuable way to measure success.
You could make that argument. Deane was a very good bench coach. But, lets of course take a look at where the program was when K.O., Deane, and Wojo took over. Who had it the worst?
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 07:55:05 PM
You could make that argument. Deane was a very good bench coach. But, lets of course take a look at where the program was when K.O., Deane, and Wojo took over. Who had it the worst?
I think the 101st time we have this argument will change everyone's minds.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 07:01:20 PM
I'll hang up and listen...
Al McGuire 1964–77 295–80 .787
Hank Raymonds 1977–83 126–50 .716
Rick Majerus 1983–86 56–35 .615
Bob Dukiet 1986–89 39–46 .459
Kevin O'Neill 1989–94 86–62 .581
Mike Deane 1994–99 100–55 .645
Tom Crean 1999–08 190–96 .664
Buzz Williams 2008–14 139–69 .668
Steve Wojo 2014– 97–67 .591
If winning percentage while at MU is your only standard, you might want to pick the phone back up and let the college hoops HOF people know that Mike Deane was a better coach than Rick Majerus.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 22, 2019, 07:58:59 PM
If winning percentage while at MU is your only standard, you might want to pick the phone back up and let the college hoops HOF people know that Mike Deane was a better coach than Rick Majerus.
Not only that, while he is hold waiting for the phone to ring his own criteria is trumped with Wojo better record than KO, but he said not since Dukiet.
Using straight winning percentages, who coaches are allowed to recruit, conference, etc, all matter.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 07:55:05 PM
You could make that argument. Deane was a very good bench coach. But, lets of course take a look at where the program was when K.O., Deane, and Wojo took over. Who had it the worst?
K.O, Wojo, Deane.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 07:01:20 PM
I'll hang up and listen...
Given that you've been banned from multiple Marquette basketball forum websites multiple times each, I'll go out on a limb and guess you will not actually hang up and listen.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 07:01:20 PM
I'll hang up and listen...
Al McGuire 1964–77 295–80 .787
Hank Raymonds 1977–83 126–50 .716
Rick Majerus 1983–86 56–35 .615
Bob Dukiet 1986–89 39–46 .459
Kevin O'Neill 1989–94 86–62 .581
Mike Deane 1994–99 100–55 .645
Tom Crean 1999–08 190–96 .664
Buzz Williams 2008–14 139–69 .668
Steve Wojo 2014– 97–67 .591
Excellent! I had been looking for a way to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Hank Raymonds was a better college basketball coach than Buzz, Majerus, KO and Crean.
Thanks, Ners!!
In before the lock
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 07:55:05 PM
You could make that argument. Deane was a very good bench coach. But, lets of course take a look at where the program was when K.O., Deane, and Wojo took over. Who had it the worst?
Seriously, even Gallagher changed up his act more than you.
Elonsmusk is definitely correct. Wojo is the worst coach since Dukiet.
Dukiet nearly trainwrecked program
KO saved the program
Deane maintained the program
Crean took program to a level beyond KO
Buzz had sustained success with the program
Wojo has taken the program down a level
As Bill Parcells used to say, you are what your record says you are. Wojo is mediocre.
Right now Wojo success level would be completely acceptable at Creighton. The difference is MU has far more resources than Creighton so performance should be better.
I have consistenlty given Wojo credit for two things. First he has recruited Big East level talent. Second, he has embraced MU basketball history and all that have been a part of it. The offsetting factor is ,in a few years, Wojo will be one of our longer tenured coaches at MU and he will have presided over a sustained degradation of the program from the halycon days of Crean/Buzz
Quote from: Herman Cain on December 22, 2019, 10:31:18 PM
Elonsmusk is definitely correct. Wojo is the worst coach since Dukiet.
Dukiet nearly trainwrecked program
KO saved the program
Deane maintained the program
Crean took program to a level beyond KO
Buzz had sustained success with the program
Wojo has taken the program down a level
As Bill Parcells used to say, you are what your record says you are. Wojo is mediocre.
Right now Wojo success level would be completely acceptable at Creighton. The difference is MU has far more resources than Creighton so performance should be better.
I have consistenlty given Wojo credit for two things. First he has recruited Big East level talent. Second, he has embraced MU basketball history and all that have been a part of it. The offsetting factor is ,in a few years, Wojo will be one of our longer tenured coaches at MU and he will have presided over a sustained degradation of the program from the halycon days of Crean/Buzz
You have great, first hand insight into Wojo's ability to recruit.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 22, 2019, 07:01:20 PM
I'll hang up and listen...
Al McGuire 1964–77 295–80 .787
Hank Raymonds 1977–83 126–50 .716
Rick Majerus 1983–86 56–35 .615
Bob Dukiet 1986–89 39–46 .459
Kevin O'Neill 1989–94 86–62 .581
Mike Deane 1994–99 100–55 .645
Tom Crean 1999–08 190–96 .664
Buzz Williams 2008–14 139–69 .668
Steve Wojo 2014– 97–67 .591
Also disingenuous
97-67 is .592, not .591.
Second, we are 9-2 this year which brings his record to 106-71 and at .599.
Quote from: Herman Cain on December 22, 2019, 10:31:18 PM
Elonsmusk is definitely correct. Wojo is the worst coach since Dukiet.
Dukiet nearly trainwrecked program
KO saved the program
Deane maintained the program
And that's where you lost your audience.
Quote from: Herman Cain on December 22, 2019, 10:31:18 PM
Elonsmusk is definitely correct. Wojo is the worst coach since Dukiet.
Dukiet nearly trainwrecked program
KO saved the program
Deane maintained the program
Crean took program to a level beyond KO
Buzz had sustained success with the program
Wojo has taken the program down a level
As Bill Parcells used to say, you are what your record says you are. Wojo is mediocre.
Right now Wojo success level would be completely acceptable at Creighton. The difference is MU has far more resources than Creighton so performance should be better.
I have consistenlty given Wojo credit for two things. First he has recruited Big East level talent. Second, he has embraced MU basketball history and all that have been a part of it. The offsetting factor is ,in a few years, Wojo will be one of our longer tenured coaches at MU and he will have presided over a sustained degradation of the program from the halycon days of Crean/Buzz
Herm....there are people here that think you are Ners and folks that think Elonmusk is Ners. No idea if true.
KO may have "saved" the program, he also couldn't wait to get out and crap the bed everywhere else he went. He would have lasted only a few more years at MU at best...and he knew it.
Deane didn't maintain the program, that's why he was fired
Crean was up and down...his ups were great, his downs were below what they should have been.
Buzz sustained if you pretend his last year didn't exist as well as the first year of Wojo which was with Buzz's disaster lineup. He brought some great memories and horrible embarrassment, too. Buzz inherited a program with the three amigos.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 22, 2019, 10:43:54 PM
Herm....there are people here that think you are Ners and folks that think Elonmusk is Ners. No idea if true.
KO may have "saved" the program, he also couldn't wait to get out and crap the bed everywhere else he went. He would have lasted only a few more years at MU at best...and he knew it.
Deane didn't maintain the program, that's why he was fired
Crean was up and down...his ups were great, his downs were below what they should have been.
Buzz sustained if you pretend his last year didn't exist as well as the first year of Wojo which was with Buzz's disaster lineup. He brought some great memories and horrible embarrassment, too. Buzz inherited a program with the three amigos.
Buzz was a proponent of the theory that most coaches have a finite life cycle at any given school. I think that has been the case at MU. Majerus, KO, Deane, Crean and Buzz all did their thing and either left , were asked to leave, given an open door etc. Wojo is unique in MU history in that he has pretty much life tenure as long as Lovell is the boss. So my grievance is that we are going to be subject to sustained mediocrity when the resources are there for better performance.
Just for the record, I think it was a healthy thing Buzz left when he did.
I am in total agreement with Ners as to the first year of Wojo tenure and the facts therein. As time has gone by the solid post collegiate careers of those first year players have proven the point.
The only other thing I would say, is at the time Lovell was very new to the job and he made the classic board room decision to go with IBM . Given the choice of Cuonzo and Howland I guess I can't blame him. It is unfortunate for MU that the vacancy came open in between years when good young coaches were available.
Only way to get rid of Wojo is for him to put up a decent record this year and hope he goes to the top of the coaching carousel. I am fairly confident, if he got the right Power 5 deal he would take it in a heart beat. Wojo is no fool and he sees the cushy jobs Chris Holtman and Chris Mack have and I am sure he wants some of that kind of action if he can get it.
Quote from: Herman Cain on December 22, 2019, 10:31:18 PM
Elonsmusk is definitely correct. Wojo is the worst coach since Dukiet.
Dukiet nearly trainwrecked program
KO saved the program
Deane maintained the program
Crean took program to a level beyond KO
Buzz had sustained success with the program
Wojo has taken the program down a level
As Bill Parcells used to say, you are what your record says you are. Wojo is mediocre.
Right now Wojo success level would be completely acceptable at Creighton. The difference is MU has far more resources than Creighton so performance should be better.
I have consistenlty given Wojo credit for two things. First he has recruited Big East level talent. Second, he has embraced MU basketball history and all that have been a part of it. The offsetting factor is ,in a few years, Wojo will be one of our longer tenured coaches at MU and he will have presided over a sustained degradation of the program from the halycon days of Crean/Buzz
McDermott's tenure at Creighton is a pretty good comparison to Wojo.
Quote from: Herman Cain on December 22, 2019, 11:03:37 PM
Buzz was a proponent of the theory that most coaches have a finite life cycle at any given school. I think that has been the case at MU. Majerus, KO, Deane, Crean and Buzz all did their thing and either left , were asked to leave, given an open door etc. Wojo is unique in MU history in that he has pretty much life tenure as long as Lovell is the boss. So my grievance is that we are going to be subject to sustained mediocrity when the resources are there for better performance.
Just for the record, I think it was a healthy thing Buzz left when he did.
I am in total agreement with Ners as to the first year of Wojo tenure and the facts therein. As time has gone by the solid post collegiate careers of those first year players have proven the point.
The only other thing I would say, is at the time Lovell was very new to the job and he made the classic board room decision to go with IBM . Given the choice of Cuonzo and Howland I guess I can't blame him. It is unfortunate for MU that the vacancy came open in between years when good young coaches were available.
Only way to get rid of Wojo is for him to put up a decent record this year and hope he goes to the top of the coaching carousel. I am fairly confident, if he got the right Power 5 deal he would take it in a heart beat. Wojo is no fool and he sees the cushy jobs Chris Holtman and Chris Mack have and I am sure he wants some of that kind of action if he can get it.
Post collegiate careers have nothing to do with it. You are limited under ncaa rules how much time to practice. When you suddenly do that for a living, of course you get better at it. I'd argue some of them haven't exactly had that sterling of careers, others have after getting over their emotional and commitment issues.
He does not have lifetime tenure at MU. I agree with you if the right gig came along he would totally take it, because we aren't one of those jobs no matter how much some people pretend it is the 1970's and think it still is. Some of those jobs have so many built in advantages you have to listen to them...no question.
Quote from: Herman Cain on December 22, 2019, 11:03:37 PM
I am in total agreement with Ners as to the first year of Wojo tenure and the facts therein. As time has gone by the solid post collegiate careers of those first year players have proven the point.
I'll give you Deonte Burton as having a solid post collegiate career....and the passing of his mother led to his transfer shortly after Wojo arrived. The others? Meh. And before you start, I'm well aware of the guys overseas and Dawson being a g-league scrub. It's just not that impressive to me. I'm glad they're making money doing what they love, but those teams are littered with former high major bench players and low major stars.
Name a team that missed the NIT, lost 5/6 of its top players in terms of minutes played, it's coach, and over half it's incoming recruiting class, that made the postseason the following season. Bonus points if the 1/6 player is as bad as Derrick Wilson.
You wont find that team. If you expected Wojo to make the NCAAs in year 1, you were expecting him to do something that hadn't been done before.
If that's not enough, the Big East coaches picked Marquette 8th, are they dumb? KenPom picked Marquette 87th, is he dumb? IIRC, there wasn't a single bracketology that had us in the tournament preseason, are all of the dumb? At a certain point when all of the experts are looking at the same team you are and saying that it is not a tournament team (and then the team doesn't make the tournament), you have to consider the possibility that your talent evaluation is off or agenda driven.
Maybe a great (or dirty) coach could have had the team back in 2 years. Personally, I think a three year rebuild was reasonable given the starting point.
so this is the thread to discuss how much of a steward MarKus is for MU both on and off the court right!? 🥴
Deane wasn't a great coach. Sure he could maintain when the talent was there, but recruiting sucked. At the end if his tenure, there was a malaise over the program an the BC was a morgue. Wojo is better than that. Not even a question.
Markus Howard is an amazing Marquette player and student
I finally caught up to reading my latest Marquette Magazine with the Markus story.
Interesting that Jamal Cain and him worked together all summer with Markus helping Jamal to improve his shot and a Jamal helping Markus improve his quick first step.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 23, 2019, 07:52:05 AM
I finally caught up to reading my latest Marquette Magazine with the Markus story.
Interesting that Jamal Cain and him worked together all summer with Markus helping Jamal to improve his shot and a Jamal helping Markus improve his quick first step.
Seconded. Having Markus work with players during the off-season is almost like having another shooting coach. We certainly haven't seen the drop off in shooting ability that some were expecting when Nelson left.
Quote from: Herman Cain on December 22, 2019, 10:31:18 PM
Elonsmusk is definitely correct.
And
THAT'S where you lost your audience.
Thanks to TAMU for his logical, fact-filled post, and thanks to Uncle Rico for trying to get this thread back on topic ... even though it is so enlightening to have the Wojo/KO/Deane discussion for the 744th time.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 23, 2019, 07:52:05 AM
I finally caught up to reading my latest Marquette Magazine with the Markus story.
Interesting that Jamal Cain and him worked together all summer with Markus helping Jamal to improve his shot and a Jamal helping Markus improve his quick first step.
It was a good article, and like you MUFIC, I found that to be extremely interesting.
I can't say I've noticed any fundamental differences in either of those things, but I don't really have the data to analyze it. Would need to look at Jamal's shooting form and Markus' first step both before and after they helped each other.
What I can say is that Markus is having another superb season and that Jamal is having his best year at Marquette, having energized our team in several wins so far. Well done by both.
Boy this board is turning nasty quickly, especially during the Christmas season.
A couple of thoughts on the Brothers Hauser (again):
1) They're gone. Period. Unless you are going to fire our coach for a management breakdown, there's nothing more to be done. Period.
2) Will this go on every time Sam has a good game for UVA or the Baby Hauser at MSU? Gosh, I hope not.
3) Look, Wojo probably was more indulgent in the Baby Hauser than he should have been. I'm sure he would agree privately. Had the same problem with Henry. I think he's changed and I hope that as we move forward with Dawson, Oso and the rest of next year's class, we'll see a very different Wojo. One who can lead us to the elite of college basketball again!
It's time we're thankful for what we have, not whining because we don't have the rpesent we think we want!
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 23, 2019, 09:09:29 AM
Boy this board is turning nasty quickly, especially during the Christmas season.
A couple of thoughts on the Brothers Hauser (again):
1) They're gone. Period. Unless you are going to fire our coach for a management breakdown, there's nothing more to be done. Period.
2) Will this go on every time Sam has a good game for UVA or the Baby Hauser at MSU? Gosh, I hope not.
3) Look, Wojo probably was more indulgent in the Baby Hauser than he should have been. I'm sure he would agree privately. Had the same problem with Henry. I think he's changed and I hope that as we move forward with Dawson, Oso and the rest of next year's class, we'll see a very different Wojo. One who can lead us to the elite of college basketball again!
It's time we're thankful for what we have, not whining because we don't have the rpesent we think we want!
1) Agreed. Obviously.
2) Yes. And even when they don't.
3) Wojo doesn't need to "change," IMHO. He simply needs to keep improving as a coach, as he already has done. Some here have already decided that he has no chance to lead us back to the elite. We'll see; I don't know if he can or can't. I hope all are rooting for him to do so.
Quote from: MU82 on December 22, 2019, 09:39:46 PM
Excellent! I had been looking for a way to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Hank Raymonds was a better college basketball coach than Buzz, Majerus, KO and Crean.
Thanks, Ners!!
Wojo's record should be closer to Raymonds, given that both he and Raymonds took over the programs after our best runs, and with the most talent in the cupboard.
Wojo passed on numerous jobs prior to taking MU. Why did he take the MU job? I'm going to go out on a crazy limb and say he saw a program with a good base of in-house talent, lots of recent success, great facilities, huge budget, good conference but not the uber-impossible former Big East.
Wojo hit the jackpot! It is incredible to me the chicken little expectations thrown around here to justify mediocre performance. I guess you and his most loyal supporters have low expectations for the MU basketball program, and that of course is your prerogative.
But hey, he is doing a good job this year, and as I posted above, just wish it didn't take 5 years of training wheels to round into form.
And P.S. - Markus is an incredible player. Let's hope Markus doesn't leave without an NCAA tournament win...which would be abominable.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 23, 2019, 10:11:10 AM
Wojo's record should be closer to Raymonds, given that both he and Raymonds took over the programs after our best runs, and with the most talent in the cupboard.
Wojo passed on numerous jobs prior to taking MU. Why did he take the MU job? I'm going to go out on a crazy limb and say he saw a program with a good base of in-house talent, lots of recent success, great facilities, huge budget, good conference but not the uber-impossible former Big East.
Wojo hit the jackpot! It is incredible to me the chicken little expectations thrown around here to justify mediocre performance. I guess you and his most loyal supporters have low expectations for the MU basketball program, and that of course is your prerogative.
But hey, he is doing a good job this year, and as I posted above, just wish it didn't take 5 years of training wheels to round into form.
And P.S. - Markus is an incredible player. Let's hope Markus doesn't leave without an NCAA tournament win...which would be abominable.
Outstanding goalpost shifting.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 23, 2019, 07:52:05 AM
I finally caught up to reading my latest Marquette Magazine with the Markus story.
Interesting that Jamal Cain and him worked together all summer with Markus helping Jamal to improve his shot and a Jamal helping Markus improve his quick first step.
+1
Quote from: MU82 on December 23, 2019, 09:13:53 AM
1) Agreed. Obviously.
2) Yes. And even when they don't.
3) Wojo doesn't need to "change," IMHO. He simply needs to keep improving as a coach, as he already has done. Some here have already decided that he has no chance to lead us back to the elite. We'll see; I don't know if he can or can't. I hope all are rooting for him to do so.
With 20/20 hindsight it looks like the Hausers' departure was a blessing in disguise. As Glow mentioned in another thread, if they had stayed we would not have the recruiting class we have now. At the very least they are much better athletes. The program is heading in the right direction.
...and Markus is one special player, no doubt.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 23, 2019, 10:11:10 AM
Wojo's record should be closer to Raymonds, given that both he and Raymonds took over the programs after our best runs, and with the most talent in the cupboard.
Wojo passed on numerous jobs prior to taking MU. Why did he take the MU job? I'm going to go out on a crazy limb and say he saw a program with a good base of in-house talent, lots of recent success, great facilities, huge budget, good conference but not the uber-impossible former Big East.
Wojo hit the jackpot! It is incredible to me the chicken little expectations thrown around here to justify mediocre performance. I guess you and his most loyal supporters have low expectations for the MU basketball program, and that of course is your prerogative.
But hey, he is doing a good job this year, and as I posted above, just wish it didn't take 5 years of training wheels to round into form.
And P.S. - Markus is an incredible player. Let's hope Markus doesn't leave without an NCAA tournament win...which would be abominable.
Hank's first team was ranked in the top 5, had many players from a national title team that came back and Hank, himself said was more talented than the one who won it all the year before. He auto started with ridiculous talent and a great record that goes along with it. Wojo inherited a team that didn't even make the NIT. For you to suggest Wojo's record should be the about the same....honestly...is breathtakingly alarming. It screams one of two things
1) you are incompetent
2) you are so blinded by hatred that all facts to the contrary be damned, your emotions have led you to this decision
At this point, I don't know if it is 1 or 2.
The jobs Wojo turned down were not as good as the one he got. No different than Crean when he took the MU job, he decided to wait from the previous year.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 23, 2019, 10:17:51 AM
With 20/20 hindsight it looks like the Hausers' departure was a blessing in disguise. As Glow mentioned in another thread, if they had stayed we would not have the recruiting class we have now. At the very least they are much better athletes. The program is heading in the right direction.
...and Markus is one special player, no doubt.
There will be days when it is going to hurt, and the same folks here will let everyone know about. And days where it will have worked itself out. They are talented players, wonderful shooters which is hard to replace especially on nights when shots aren't going in.
End of the day, it is impossible to know what would have happened. They are gone, some guys have stepped up, great class coming in next year and I know I remain fully onboard. Others may do as they wish.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 23, 2019, 10:11:10 AM
Wojo's record should be closer to Raymonds, given that both he and Raymonds took over the programs after our best runs, and with the most talent in the cupboard.
Yeah no one agrees with this. Look at TAMU's post.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 23, 2019, 10:11:10 AM
Wojo's record should be closer to Raymonds, given that both he and Raymonds took over the programs after our best runs, and with the most talent in the cupboard.
Butch Lee, Jerome Whitehead, Bernard Tune, Jim Boylan, Ulice Payne
Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer, JaJuan Johnson, Deonte Burton, Juan Anderson, Steve Taylor, Derrick Wilson
Yes. That's right folks. Ners just claimed these two groups are comparable to each other.
L O freaking L!
Quote from: wadesworld on December 23, 2019, 10:47:04 AM
Butch Lee, Jerome Whitehead, Bernard Toone, Jim Boylan, Ulice Payne
Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer, JaJuan Johnson, Deonte Burton, Juan Anderson, Steve Taylor, Derrick Wilson, and the tragic, Magic Dawson
Yes. That's right folks. Ners just claimed these two groups are comparable to each other.
L O freaking L!
FIFY
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 23, 2019, 10:11:10 AM
Wojo's record should be closer to Raymonds, given that both he and Raymonds took over the programs after our best runs, and with the most talent in the cupboard.
Why do you give Deane a pass for taking over a great core of a Sweet 16 team and leading it to an NIT final?
Quote from: wadesworld on December 23, 2019, 10:47:04 AM
Butch Lee, Jerome Whitehead, Bernard Tune, Jim Boylan, Ulice Payne
Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer, JaJuan Johnson, Deonte Burton, Juan Anderson, Steve Taylor, Derrick Wilson
Yes. That's right folks. Ners just claimed these two groups are comparable to each other.
L O freaking L!
Rosenberger, Lee, etc, too.
Quote from: tower912 on December 22, 2019, 02:23:11 PM
JC got a quick hook. Agreed. Should have gotten more run. Looking for an argument that isn't there
I thought he pretty much got the leash that he deserved. Jamal played really poorly in every phase last year other than rebounding. If you want to argue that there was a negative reinforcing cycle of early mistakes-->quick hook-->loss of confidence--> early mistakes-->etc. I can buy that, but he seldom showed he deserved more minutes. Yes, Joey collapsed late in the year, but he was also BE Freshman of the Week 4 times before February, so to me it was unsurprising that he got the longer leash.
Jamal's resurgence is the most surprising storyline to me so far this year and a testament to his perseverance and effort. I really wouldn't have been surprised to see Jamal transfer to a lesser conference where he could shine a la Teve.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 23, 2019, 10:17:51 AM
With 20/20 hindsight it looks like the Hausers' departure was a blessing in disguise. As Glow mentioned in another thread, if they had stayed we would not have the recruiting class we have now. At the very least they are much better athletes. The program is heading in the right direction.
...and Markus is one special player, no doubt.
We went from being a preseason top 10 team to being unranked (still). We can root for the players we have, not root for the Hausers, and still be honest enough to say this team took a big hit with them leaving.
Quote from: Small Orange Soda on December 23, 2019, 11:31:48 AM
We went from being a preseason top 10 team to being unranked (still). We can root for the players we have, not root for the Hausers, and still be honest enough to say this team took a big hit with them leaving.
You can't use the week 8 AP poll and compare it to someone's "Way to early" rankings that were released hours after the national championship. We were "others receiving votes" in the preseason and we're in the same place right now.
If MU still had the Hausers, they would have the same record AND probably be ranked. Because MU would have been top ten preseason and now somewhere in the teens. The perception changed and MU did not start as a top 10 team. If a team starts the preseason outside the top 25, 9-2 keeps you out. If a team starts inside the top 25, 9-2 will keep you in or just outside.
But MU would have the same record, likely Sacar and Cain would be gone and unknown if Jayce would be here. But, you know...
Quote from: TSmith34 on December 23, 2019, 11:05:50 AM
Jamal's resurgence is the most surprising storyline to me so far this year and a testament to his perseverance and effort.
Agree, and he has ascended to be probably my second-favorite Warrior this season, behind our first-team All-American.
Quote from: Small Orange Soda on December 23, 2019, 11:31:48 AM
We went from being a preseason top 10 team to being unranked (still). We can root for the players we have, not root for the Hausers, and still be honest enough to say this team took a big hit with them leaving.
It seriously is too early to know how big the hit was. Assuming we beat Central Arkansas, we will have had almost the exact same non-con showing as a year ago, with two bummer losses but several outstanding victories, in addition to the usual cupcake-a-thon. I thought we would struggle offensively, and we have at times, but I am very pleasantly surprised that we are shooting better from behind the arc so far this season (.419) than we did at this point last year (.388).
And as tower and others have said, we don't know how many good players would have bolted had the Hausers not quit the program.
One of the biggest shames about last year's collapse was that the BEast was down, and the conference title was there for the taking, and we choked it away. (And we did so with the Hausers, as well as Markus, struggling mightily down the stretch.) The league obviously has stepped up significantly this season, so we might actually play better but win less.
For example, beating X and Butler twice each last season was great, but those were comparatively poor X and Butler teams; I would be stunned if we go 4-0 in those games this season. Heck, it won't be easy to go 2-0 vs DePaul, with what we've seen out of them so far.
The biggest "hit" this team took -- IMHO -- is that we really could have used Sam's shooting, all-around solid play and senior basketball savvy. Joey, while a talented offensive player, has been replaced by far superior athletes, especially on the defensive end. And his departure opened the door for Garcia, among others. But sure, I don't know how anybody can seriously say we are better without Sam (unless one is certain that if Sam stayed and Joey left, several other players would have transferred).
As other Scoopers have said, though, Sam ain't walking back in that door, so to constantly pine for him and whine about what we lost without him (not saying you're doing that) ... it might be natural fan behavior but it's meaningless dribble.
Quote from: tower912 on December 23, 2019, 11:57:58 AM
But MU would have the same record, likely Sacar and Cain would be gone and unknown if Jayce would be here. But, you know...
Now this I agree with. Those players (and possibly Bailey) stayed because minutes opened up when the Hausers left, not because chemistry was so great or they love Wojo or they "want to be Warriors" or whatever other reason people want to throw out there.
Markus Howard is fine representative of the University
Quote from: Its DJOver on December 23, 2019, 11:50:44 AM
You can't use the week 8 AP poll and compare it to someone's "Way to early" rankings that were released hours after the national championship. We were "others receiving votes" in the preseason and we're in the same place right now.
Actually, I can. This team's expectations were significantly diminished after they left and remain so.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 23, 2019, 10:11:10 AM
Wojo's record should be closer to Raymonds, given that both he and Raymonds took over the programs after our best runs, and with the most talent in the cupboard.
Wow - you have a short memory. Davante and Jamil were the best players in Buzz's last year, and they both graduated. So did Jake Thomas and Chris Otule. Buzz basically left Wojo with guys like Derrick Wilson, Juan Anderson, Deonte Burton and Todd Mayo...and Mayo had one foot out the door.
Hank, on the other hand, inherited a team with the Final Four MOP in Butch Lee, one of our best centers ever in Jerome Whitehead, and other experienced players like Bernard Toone, Jimmy Boylan and Gary Rosenberger.
But yeah - they showed up and had "comparable levels of talent in the cupboard."
Edit: Dang. Missed page 4, so I didn't see that others heart me to it.....
Quote from: Small Orange Soda on December 23, 2019, 01:27:19 PM
Actually, I can. This team's expectations were significantly diminished after they left and remain so.
I should have phrased it better. It would be incorrect to say that we were a preseason top 10 team. We were a preseason "others receiving votes" team, and we are currently a "other receiving votes" team.
Quote from: tower912 on December 23, 2019, 11:57:58 AM
If MU still had the Hausers, they would have the same record AND probably be ranked. Because MU would have been top ten preseason and now somewhere in the teens. The perception changed and MU did not start as a top 10 team. If a team starts the preseason outside the top 25, 9-2 keeps you out. If a team starts inside the top 25, 9-2 will keep you in or just outside.
But MU would have the same record, likely Sacar and Cain would be gone and unknown if Jayce would be here. But, you know...
We went from being a top 10 team to unranked throughout non-conference play. You're speculating, I'm not.
Quote from: Small Orange Soda on December 23, 2019, 01:33:11 PM
We went from being a top 10 team to unranked throughout non-conference play. You're speculating, I'm not.
You are speculating that we would have been a top 10 pre-season team. What is a fact is that we were a "others receiving votes" preseason team, and that we are a "others receiving votes" team in the week 8 poll.
Quote from: Small Orange Soda on December 23, 2019, 01:33:11 PM
We went from being a top 10 team to unranked throughout non-conference play. You're speculating, I'm not.
So a team returning everyone...who lost their last six of seven, two to another BE team who returned their core players, was going to be ranked fifth by adding Koby and Greg from 33 in Pomeroy at season's end? Yet, without the Hausers but with Koby and Greg are just 30th in Pomeroy this year?
Me thinks the "Too Early" ranking was too early. With the Hausers, MU couldn't win just one game to clinch the BE down the stretch...got pushed around by Seton Hall (twice) and got posterized (literally) by Murray State. That's not a Top 5 portfolio.
Besides, if the Hausers returned, likely some of the following wouldn't have: Sacar, Bailey, Cain and Markus. Top 5 would have been pufft in that scenario too. This is fun.
Here is the reality: After non-conference, MU will have the same number of losses as last season at this time, both blow-outs away from home.
Quote from: MU82 on December 23, 2019, 12:09:56 PM
It seriously is too early to know how big the hit was. Assuming we beat Central Arkansas, we will have had almost the exact same non-con showing as a year ago, with two bummer losses but several outstanding victories, in addition to the usual cupcake-a-thon. I thought we would struggle offensively, and we have at times, but I am very pleasantly surprised that we are shooting better from behind the arc so far this season (.419) than we did at this point last year (.388).
And as tower and others have said, we don't know how many good players would have bolted had the Hausers not quit the program.
One of the biggest shames about last year's collapse was that the BEast was down, and the conference title was there for the taking, and we choked it away. (And we did so with the Hausers, as well as Markus, struggling mightily down the stretch.) The league obviously has stepped up significantly this season, so we might actually play better but win less.
For example, beating X and Butler twice each last season was great, but those were comparatively poor X and Butler teams; I would be stunned if we go 4-0 in those games this season. Heck, it won't be easy to go 2-0 vs DePaul, with what we've seen out of them so far.
The biggest "hit" this team took -- IMHO -- is that we really could have used Sam's shooting, all-around solid play and senior basketball savvy. Joey, while a talented offensive player, has been replaced by far superior athletes, especially on the defensive end. And his departure opened the door for Garcia, among others. But sure, I don't know how anybody can seriously say we are better without Sam (unless one is certain that if Sam stayed and Joey left, several other players would have transferred).
As other Scoopers have said, though, Sam ain't walking back in that door, so to constantly pine for him and whine about what we lost without him (not saying you're doing that) ... it might be natural fan behavior but it's meaningless dribble.
Very well said.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 23, 2019, 01:30:14 PM
Wow - you have a short memory. Davante and Jamil were the best players in Buzz's last year, and they both graduated. So did Jake Thomas and Chris Otule. Buzz basically left Wojo with guys like Derrick Wilson, Juan Anderson, Deonte Burton and Todd Mayo...and Mayo had one foot out the door.
Hank, on the other hand, inherited a team with the Final Four MOP in Butch Lee, one of our best centers ever in Jerome Whitehead, and other experienced players like Bernard Toone, Jimmy Boylan and Gary Rosenberger.
But yeah - they showed up and had "comparable levels of talent in the cupboard."
Edit: Dang. Missed page 4, so I didn't see that others heart me to it.....
That's ok, he needs to hear it again
Quote from: Small Orange Soda on December 23, 2019, 01:33:11 PM
We went from being a top 10 team to unranked throughout non-conference play. You're speculating, I'm not.
You absolutely are speculating.
We were a top 10 team....EXCEPT....if they had stayed others would not be here. Thus subtraction. Either way, there was going to be subtraction. That rating was based on EVERYONE returning, which was not going to happen.
Impossible to prove, but I suspect Tower is right and we would have the same record. Maybe we beat Wisconsin...maybe.
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 23, 2019, 09:09:29 AM
Boy this board is turning nasty quickly, especially during the Christmas season.
2) Will this go on every time Sam has a good game for UVA or the Baby Hauser at MSU? Gosh, I hope not.
No--it will happen when they have bad games as well. The other side will bring it up.
I want to issue an apology. Wades, Sultan, 82, Cheeks, TAMU - you've finally convinced me. Let me revise:
Wojo has done a remarkable job, coming into the train wreck of a program Marquette was at the time of his hire. It sure felt like MU Hoops 1988 when he took over.
I know I'm not excited about next year's recruiting class, considering it is ranked worse than the "empty cupboard" one he inherited from Buzz in 2013. 8-)
Here's to hoping for an NCAA win in Year 6!
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 23, 2019, 12:50:11 PM
Markus Howard is fine representative of the University
I appreciate your attempt to get this thread back on track.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 23, 2019, 02:42:45 PM
I want to issue an apology. Wades, Sultan, 82, Cheeks, TAMU - you've finally convinced me. Let me revise:
Wojo has done a remarkable job, coming into the train wreck of a program Marquette was at the time of his hire. It sure felt like MU Hoops 1988 when he took over.
No one said it was like 1988 MUhoops when Wojo took over. People said that they were not a tournament team. A statement which was backed by KenPom, who I know you are big fan of, the Big East coaches, every bracketologiest, and just about every (or maybe just every) basketball talking head out there.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 23, 2019, 02:42:45 PM
I know I'm not excited about next year's recruiting class, considering it is ranked worse than the "empty cupboard" one he inherited from Buzz in 2013. 8-)
That's too bad, I'm excited. Class rankings are far from a sure thing, some are overrated, some are underrated, some are right on the money. Buzz' 2013 class was overrated. Maybe next year's class will be overrated too but Wojo's staff has shown some ability to identify top FR talent early before they blow up (but has had trouble landing them). Buzz had a lot more success identifying 3 stars and JUCOs who were underrated. Many of his top 100 recurits ended up being busts compared to their rankings.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 23, 2019, 02:42:45 PM
I want to issue an apology. Wades, Sultan, 82, Cheeks, TAMU - you've finally convinced me. Let me revise:
Wojo has done a remarkable job, coming into the train wreck of a program Marquette was at the time of his hire. It sure felt like MU Hoops 1988 when he took over.
I know I'm not excited about next year's recruiting class, considering it is ranked worse than the "empty cupboard" one he inherited from Buzz in 2013. 8-)
Here's to hoping for an NCAA win in Year 6!
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah.
Can you point to where anyone here said it was 1988? You cannot.
So you now just told a whopper because you were called out on your very poor illlogical comments Hank Raymond's record and Wojo's. You posted false numbers on top of it, now your way around that is to equivocate 1988 with 2014....which no one claimed here.
Keep digging
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 23, 2019, 02:42:45 PM
I know I'm not excited about next year's recruiting class, considering it is ranked worse than the "empty cupboard" one he inherited from Buzz in 2013. 8-)
Wojo really blew it with the best player in the recruiting class.
Some guy named Jameel McKay.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 23, 2019, 02:42:45 PM
I want to issue an apology. Wades, Sultan, 82, Cheeks, TAMU - you've finally convinced me. Let me revise:
Wojo has done a remarkable job, coming into the train wreck of a program Marquette was at the time of his hire. It sure felt like MU Hoops 1988 when he took over.
I know I'm not excited about next year's recruiting class, considering it is ranked worse than the "empty cupboard" one he inherited from Buzz in 2013. 8-)
Here's to hoping for an NCAA win in Year 6!
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah.
Elon, smoke some weed
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 23, 2019, 01:52:20 PM
So a team returning everyone...who lost their last six of seven, two to another BE team who returned their core players, was going to be ranked fifth by adding Koby and Greg from 33 in Pomeroy at season's end? Yet, without the Hausers but with Koby and Greg are just 30th in Pomeroy this year?
Me thinks the "Too Early" ranking was too early. With the Hausers, MU couldn't win just one game to clinch the BE down the stretch...got pushed around by Seton Hall (twice) and got posterized (literally) by Murray State. That's not a Top 5 portfolio.
Besides, if the Hausers returned, likely some of the following wouldn't have: Sacar, Bailey, Cain and Markus. Top 5 would have been pufft in that scenario too. This is fun.
Here is the reality: After non-conference, MU will have the same number of losses as last season at this time, both blow-outs away from home.
I'm glad you're having fun explaining all the ways Wojo wouldn't have been able to keep together a top 10 squad. Not a great look for him.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 23, 2019, 10:56:20 AM
Why do you give Deane a pass for taking over a great core of a Sweet 16 team and leading it to an NIT final?
Great core? Deane lost 3 senior starters from that Sweet 16 team. Only one returner averaged double figures the previous season (Rony Eford) and of course, there was Tony Miller. Other than that there was a lot of inexperience with Tony and Will Gates (who didn't play in 1993-94) being the only seniors and three rising sophomores being thrust into the rotation.
Magic Dawson is to the Muskettes as Krunti Hester is to Mike Deane.
I guess it is safe to say the fault lines still exist.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 23, 2019, 02:42:45 PM
I want to issue an apology. Wades, Sultan, 82, Cheeks, TAMU - you've finally convinced me. Let me revise:
Wojo has done a remarkable job, coming into the train wreck of a program Marquette was at the time of his hire. It sure felt like MU Hoops 1988 when he took over.
I know I'm not excited about next year's recruiting class, considering it is ranked worse than the "empty cupboard" one he inherited from Buzz in 2013. 8-)
Here's to hoping for an NCAA win in Year 6!
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah.
Glad you backed down from your laughable claim. As stated yesterday maybe think about going back to dunking on people at the Y. Your analysis stinks.
Maybe it's just the frustration with last minute christmas tasks, but this thread is absolutely infuriating. I'd love to get impressions from outside stories on Markus and have a discussion about those perspectives. Instead, all I've seen is crap about Wojo vs Buzz, Crean years, empty cupboards, personal insults, and "you are ignoring this user" (which made up a majority of pages!).
What is wrong with you people?? It's Christmas eveeve. Ask yourself, would Santa approve? Or at least look at the title of the thread and ask yourself; does my post have anything to do with those words?
Agreed. There are few grade A D-bags on this thread. However some of them make good points originally, then their bizzarro D-bag feels the need to counter their point (failing to consider at all that it may at least partially be a good one). Then both D-bags and Bizzaro D-bags go to their corners and dig deeper into their D-bag bags and the thread dies a slow death.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 23, 2019, 02:42:45 PM
I want to issue an apology. Wades, Sultan, 82, Cheeks, TAMU - you've finally convinced me. Let me revise:
Wojo has done a remarkable job, coming into the train wreck of a program Marquette was at the time of his hire. It sure felt like MU Hoops 1988 when he took over.
I know I'm not excited about next year's recruiting class, considering it is ranked worse than the "empty cupboard" one he inherited from Buzz in 2013. 8-)
Here's to hoping for an NCAA win in Year 6!
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah.
You make it sound as though the only available grades are A+ or F. In real life, most of the action occurs in between.
Quote from: UWW2MU on December 23, 2019, 08:23:14 PM
Maybe it's just the frustration with last minute christmas tasks, but this thread is absolutely infuriating. I'd love to get impressions from outside stories on Markus and have a discussion about those perspectives. Instead, all I've seen is crap about Wojo vs Buzz, Crean years, empty cupboards, personal insults, and "you are ignoring this user" (which made up a majority of pages!).
What is wrong with you people?? It's Christmas eveeve. Ask yourself, would Santa approve? Or at least look at the title of the thread and ask yourself; does my post have anything to do with those words?
(https://st2.depositphotos.com/1031343/8546/v/950/depositphotos_85463206-stock-illustration-santa-approved-stamp.jpg)
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 23, 2019, 09:15:29 PM
You make it sound as though the only available grades are A+ or F. In real life, most of the action occurs in between.
True. That being said, we invest A+ dollars into our men's basketball program and have gotten "C" returns through 5 years. Usually in real life that would lead to either termination, or demotion. In this case, it has led to contract extensions and raises.
Additionally, the "results" thus far have coincided with having Marquette's All-time leading scorer, last year's Big East POY, and consensus Second Team All-American. (Getting this back on topic and Santa approved.)
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 24, 2019, 10:25:41 AM
True. That being said, we invest A+ dollars into our men's basketball program and have gotten "C" returns through 5 years. Usually in real life that would lead to either termination, or demotion. In this case, it has led to contract extensions and raises.
Additionally, the "results" thus far have coincided with having Marquette's All-time leading scorer, last year's Big East POY, and consensus Second Team All-American. (Getting this back on topic and Santa approved.)
Misleading....again.
We invest a lot of money just to be relevent, for starters. We have to be a premium because of size, location, weather, conference geography (travel). Our budget is not offset by football and other shared expenses that so many football schools are able to do. You and others continue to fail to mention this as if it doesn't exist. Every MU away game sans one requires a plane...we charter. That's not the case for many Big Ten games, ACC games, SEC, etc. MU wants an improved weight room...bball is paying for it...other schools (football is paying for it). And on and on.
Usually, in real life, they also look to see how things started (what was inherited) and the trajectory of the program. The trajectory remains good...three straight post season bids, this year is promising, next year's recruiting class, no embarrassing off the court (the exact opposite) situations.
Not to mention we have gotten higher than "C" results.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 24, 2019, 10:35:33 AM
Misleading....again.
We invest a lot of money just to be relevent, for starters. We have to be a premium because of size, location, weather, conference geography (travel). Our budget is not offset by football and other shared expenses that so many football schools are able to do. You and others continue to fail to mention this as if it doesn't exist. Every MU away game sans one requires a plane...we charter. That's not the case for many Big Ten games, ACC games, SEC, etc. MU wants an improved weight room...bball is paying for it...other schools (football is paying for it). And on and on.
Usually, in real life, they also look to see how things started (what was inherited) and the trajectory of the program. The trajectory remains good...three straight post season bids, this year is promising, next year's recruiting class, no embarrassing off the court (the exact opposite) situations.
I'd say two away games don't require a plane. Unless we fly into Madison which is a waste
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 24, 2019, 12:10:34 PM
I'd say two away games don't require a plane. Unless we fly into Madison which is a waste
I meant to say conference games which is why I listed the other conferences, thank you for the correction. For example, Iowa buses to Madison and Northwestern.
I know this question has 0 to do with the nice story about Markus, but how much of our bball budget is rent at Fiserv? Or do we even count that?
Quote from: Cheeks on December 24, 2019, 12:29:17 PM
I meant to say conference games which is why I listed the other conferences, thank you for the correction. For example, Iowa buses to Madison and Northwestern.
Add Drake?
Quote from: source? on December 24, 2019, 01:49:02 PM
Add Drake?
Drake joined the Big Ten? I guess it makes sense since they took Rutgers.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 24, 2019, 11:42:32 AM
Not to mention we have gotten higher than "C" results.
You are entitled to your opinion, and ultimately this probably is factual in the mind of a person with low standards and expectations for the MU program.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 24, 2019, 10:35:33 AM
Misleading....again.
We invest a lot of money just to be relevent, for starters. We have to be a premium because of size, location, weather, conference geography (travel). Our budget is not offset by football and other shared expenses that so many football schools are able to do. You and others continue to fail to mention this as if it doesn't exist. Every MU away game sans one requires a plane...we charter. That's not the case for many Big Ten games, ACC games, SEC, etc. MU wants an improved weight room...bball is paying for it...other schools (football is paying for it). And on and on.
Usually, in real life, they also look to see how things started (what was inherited) and the trajectory of the program. The trajectory remains good...three straight post season bids, this year is promising, next year's recruiting class, no embarrassing off the court (the exact opposite) situations.
Hot air. All of the above existed for Crean and Buzz and they both markedly outperformed Wojo in their first 5 years on the job. Pretty sure when K.O and Denae were coach the "weight room" was in the Old Gym, shared with all other sports teams - super awesome facility to recruit to.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 24, 2019, 02:14:52 PM
You are entitled to your opinion, and ultimately this probably is factual in the mind of a person with low standards and expectations for the MU program.
Hot air. All of the above existed for Crean and Buzz and they both markedly outperformed Wojo in their first 5 years on the job. Pretty sure when K.O and Denae were coach the "weight room" was in the Old Gym, shared with all other sports teams - super awesome facility to recruit to.
Thought we wanted to look at win percentage only. Now context matters?
Pretzels.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 24, 2019, 02:14:52 PM
You are entitled to your opinion, and ultimately this probably is factual in the mind of a person with low standards and expectations for the MU program.
Hot air. All of the above existed for Crean and Buzz and they both markedly outperformed Wojo in their first 5 years on the job. Pretty sure when K.O and Denae were coach the "weight room" was in the Old Gym, shared with all other sports teams - super awesome facility to recruit to.
Just one of many examples. Crean got to recruit to us going to the Big East, the greatest conference in history at the time. KO got to recruit a state in which Wisconsin hadn't made the tournament in 47 years and was able to get Mac, Logterman, Key....UW has since become a powerhouse and the ability of an MU coach landing three in state studs like that now with how good UW is wouldn't happen.
I can go on and on with your black and white nonsense if you wish...it's fun. The academic standards Wojo is recruiting to are different some of the past coaches as well. So you keep wanting to make absurd non apples to apples comparisons, then be prepared for people to explain the apples you are comparing to are artichokes.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 24, 2019, 02:11:43 PM
Drake joined the Big Ten? I guess it makes sense since they took Rutgers.
I'm guessing you're making a joke that's going over my head. Just in case you're not and my joke went over your head: Cheeks stated that MU is so bad off in part because we can only bus to one conference game. He then cited Iowa as having 2 bus-able games like it was a huge advantage. Drake is a private school in Iowa that doesn't play football. Therefore, they would be a bus-able game and elevate us into the stratosphere with Iowa. It was a dumb joke. I was aware when I made it.
And Cheeks, I'm generally in agreement with you on this point so don't give in to your compulsion to argue with everyone who disagrees with you slightly. I just think that's a dumb example.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 24, 2019, 02:28:39 PM
Thought we wanted to look at win percentage only. Now context matters?
Pretzels.
Context always matters, and to try to grasp to the 0.10 in win percentage improvement by Wojo over Kevin O'Neill is silly. Further, where did I saw I wanted to only look at win percentage?
If you want to suggest the "empty cupboard" program Wojo took over, was comparable to that of Kevin O'Neill, knock yourself out.
I sincerely wish your predictions of consistent second weekend and sustained successes under Wojo would have come to fruition as you promised back in early 2015 once Wojo "had all his own guys." Sucks that we are still looking for our first tourney win in Year 6. K.O., Deane, Crean and Buzz had achieved that and minimal milestone and much more.
Wojo is doing better this year. I'm enjoying watching the team play. Doesn't change the fact he's struggled more than any of our past 4 coaches.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 24, 2019, 02:52:02 PM
Just one of many examples. Crean got to recruit to us going to the Big East, the greatest conference in history at the time. KO got to recruit a state in which Wisconsin hadn't made the tournament in 47 years and was able to get Mac, Logterman, Key....UW has since become a powerhouse and the ability of an MU coach landing three in state studs like that now with how good UW is wouldn't happen.
I can go on and on with your black and white nonsense if you wish...it's fun. The academic standards Wojo is recruiting to are different some of the past coaches as well. So you keep wanting to make absurd non apples to apples comparisons, then be prepared for people to explain the apples you are comparing to are artichokes.
This is some awesome nonsense. Almost better than your last submission. Keep it coming Cheeks! You are reaching John Dodds level of excuse making.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 24, 2019, 02:14:52 PM
You are entitled to your opinion, and ultimately this probably is factual in the mind of a person with low standards and expectations for the MU program.
No it is actually objectively true. C is average. MU has been above average under Wojo.
It is fine to strive for the program to achieve an "A" and say a "B" or "B-" isn't good enough. Just don't misrepresent his record.
It's great having Markus in Milwaukee
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 24, 2019, 03:15:48 PM
Context always matters, and to try to grasp to the 0.10 in win percentage improvement by Wojo over Kevin O'Neill is silly. Further, where did I saw I wanted to only look at win percentage?
If you want to suggest the "empty cupboard" program Wojo took over, was comparable to that of Kevin O'Neill, knock yourself out.
I sincerely wish your predictions of consistent second weekend and sustained successes under Wojo would have come to fruition as you promised back in early 2015 once Wojo "had all his own guys." Sucks that we are still looking for our first tourney win in Year 6. K.O., Deane, Crean and Buzz had achieved that and minimal milestone and much more.
Wojo is doing better this year. I'm enjoying watching the team play. Doesn't change the fact he's struggled more than any of our past 4 coaches.
You were the one that presented their records and winning % and then said you were on hold to listen...no one else did. It was void of any context on schedules, had inaccurate numbers, incomplete numbers, etc. You were also the one that said worse since Dukiet, which was also false. You were also the one that said Wojo should be at Raymond level.....interesting. Why wasn't Crean, Deane, Buzz at Raymonds level in terms of winning..you didn't demand Buzz get fired for not achieving that parity...interesting.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 24, 2019, 03:22:53 PM
This is some awesome nonsense. Almost better than your last submission. Keep it coming Cheeks! You are reaching John Dodds level of excuse making.
Everything I said was based on sound evidence. You think a Wisconsin level program of 2000 to 2019 would not get at least one of Mac, Logterman, Key? KO got to go against Steve Yoder / Stu Jackson and a program that was on a 47 year NCAA drought. But that's merely an excuse with you, despite it being an accurate portrayal of the situation.
Crean had more latitude on academics than Wojo has...fact.
Crean midway during his tenure recruited into the Big East...fact.
Wojo recruited into a conference where the previous coach trashed on his way out and basically said through one of his proxy mouthpiece media reporters wasn't capable of being the future, elite of college basketvall...fact.
I could go on. How is John Dawson doing? How's Houston these days or did you finally get out? Humidity is a bitch, ain't it.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 24, 2019, 04:00:51 PM
It's great having Markus in Milwaukee
PRN disagrees, but everyone else concurs.
Quote from: source? on December 24, 2019, 03:08:36 PM
I'm guessing you're making a joke that's going over my head. Just in case you're not and my joke went over your head: Cheeks stated that MU is so bad off in part because we can only bus to one conference game. He then cited Iowa as having 2 bus-able games like it was a huge advantage. Drake is a private school in Iowa that doesn't play football. Therefore, they would be a bus-able game and elevate us into the stratosphere with Iowa. It was a dumb joke. I was aware when I made it.
And Cheeks, I'm generally in agreement with you on this point so don't give in to your compulsion to argue with everyone who disagrees with you slightly. I just think that's a dumb example.
Cheeks was referring to
conference games in the Iowa context and commented that they can bus to UW@Madison and NU ("
I meant to say conference games which is why I listed the other conferences, thank you for the correction. For example, Iowa buses to Madison and Northwestern."). You then questioned whether he should have added Drake, which seemed to carry the implication that you were following on with Cheeks' listing of conference games to which Iowa can bus.
Which then led to my (admittedly snarky) comment about Drake joining the Big Ten. Hope that makes sense.
Anyhow, Merry Christmas.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 24, 2019, 05:01:16 PM
Cheeks was referring to conference games in the Iowa context and commented that they can bus to UW@Madison and NU ("I meant to say conference games which is why I listed the other conferences, thank you for the correction. For example, Iowa buses to Madison and Northwestern."). You then questioned whether he should have added Drake, which seemed to carry the implication that you were following on with Cheeks' listing of conference games to which Iowa can bus.
Which then led to my (admittedly snarky) comment about Drake joining the Big Ten. Hope that makes sense.
Anyhow, Merry Christmas.
I can see where the confusion comes from. My bad. Merry Christmas.
+2