MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 4everwarriors on April 01, 2019, 08:10:14 AM
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to Cassius Winston's choice of MSU over MU as the point that defines Wojo's MU coaching resume. Similar to Majerus' loss of Ricky Olson and Joe Wolf. Rick could never get over the hump at MU. History may repeat, aina?
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Winston and Tillman and Mannion and Grimes were never coming here. Wojo may have come in “second” on those guys, but that doesn’t mean anything in recruiting.
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Could you not say the same thing about Hagans, Nico, Grimes or Carton? Wojo has gotten close to landing some very high quality PGs. Close means nothing when it come to recruiting other than to give you hope that you can get it done on the recruiting trail soon. Getting as close as he did to landing those top players gives me hope that Wojo can land some of the premier 2020 talent out there. Others may view it differently. To each their own.
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Winston has become an excellent point guard, somethin' Wojo hasn't been able to reel in. MSU doesn't win yesterday without him, hey?
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Could you not say the same thing about Hagans, Nico, Grimes or Carton? Wojo has gotten close to landing some very high quality PGs. Close means nothing when it come to recruiting other than to give you hope that you can get it done on the recruiting trail soon. Getting as close as he did to landing those top players gives me hope that Wojo can land some of the premier 2020 talent out there. Others may view it differently. To each their own.
We were never close on Hagans. Wojo and Stan flew down to Georgia to meet with him and were treated like a couple of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
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We were never close on Hagans. Wojo and Stan flew down to Georgia to meet with him and were treated like a couple of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The point is that with recruiting being "hit or miss" the way it is, there will be an infinite number of "what if's" out there, even among the HOFers. Izzo offered a total of 7 guards for the 2017 class (per 247), all 7 chose to attend school elsewhere, including a 6'-3" shooting guard that choose to go to some school in Milwaukee. Not comparing Greg to Cassius in any way other than the offer from MSU, but worth reminding people that even the great coaches miss on the recruiting trail.
Finishing second (or top 5) for these guys hurts, but I see it as a "when" not "if" Wojo lands a top tier PG.
https://247sports.com/college/michigan-state/Season/2017-Basketball/Offers/
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Wojo has clearly done better on the recruiting trail than Rick. He has also had better results. But Marquette was a much different place back then.
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Cassius, Harper, Mooney, Jerome
Junior, junior, 5th year senior, junior
Need Symir to get to that level as an upperclassman. Would really like to see us build a roster around a probing/distributor type PG that can score. He seems to have the lead guard makeup (posted several triple doubles) and has the athleticism/length for a ceiling that high
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Wojo has landed several players that bluebloods and near-bluebloods very much wanted. He has recruited well enough to average 21 wins over the last 4 years, to get us into the postseason the last 3 years and to make us legit contenders for our conference title.
That equals "good" IMHO, but it means he still has to recruit even better to get us where we all (including Wojo) want us to be. And I think he will.
And as others have already stated, Torrence is a 4-star PG whom Virginia, Syracuse and Maryland (among others) offered.
But sure, he's swung and missed, too. Name a coach who hasn't, especially a coach at a non-blueblood.
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Winston and Tillman and Mannion and Grimes were never coming here. Wojo may have come in “second” on those guys, but that doesn’t mean anything in recruiting.
I agree a really silly OP. Winston was dyed in the wool MSU from day one. I guess he was wirth a try from Wojo, but it seems other schools knew better and layed off Winston. So maybe we came in second by default?
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The point is that with recruiting being "hit or miss" the way it is, there will be an infinite number of "what if's" out there, even among the HOFers. Izzo offered a total of 7 guards for the 2017 class (per 247), all 7 chose to attend school elsewhere, including a 6'-3" shooting guard that choose to go to some school in Milwaukee. Not comparing Greg to Cassius in any way other than the offer from MSU, but worth reminding people that even the great coaches miss on the recruiting trail.
Finishing second (or top 5) for these guys hurts, but I see it as a "when" not "if" Wojo lands a top tier PG.
https://247sports.com/college/michigan-state/Season/2017-Basketball/Offers/
How solid was Greg’s MSU offer? Was it one of those “wait and see” deals where he’d get the scholly if other guys turned it down? I don’t know much about the inside details of recruiting, but I’ve heard that not all scholarship offers are created equal. I have a hard time believing that MSU was seriously targeting Greg, who’s a nice player but not “Izzo’s living in his high school gym” nice.
But hey, people have actually said on here that Traci Carter was a recruiting “miss” for Jay Wright, so who knows.
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Only real take i have from this thread isthat in 5+ years Wojo has failed to land a high major PG. Im in Wojos camp but that is pathetic and it has been a major thirn in our side in each season
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to Cassius Winston's choice of MSU over MU as the point that defines Wojo's MU coaching resume.
I was thinking about that this weekend. How much different does this team look with a capable PG instead of Howard?
Also, while Theo improved, Tillman is so much better it's not even funny.
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Could you not say the same thing about Hagans, Nico, Grimes or Carton? Wojo has gotten close to landing some very high quality PGs. Close means nothing when it come to recruiting other than to give you hope that you can get it done on the recruiting trail soon. Getting as close as he did to landing those top players gives me hope that Wojo can land some of the premier 2020 talent out there. Others may view it differently. To each their own.
Hagans lol
If that guy melted down surrounded by 5 stars. I think he woulda melted down trying to throw the ball to Theo John.
But your point is right. We were close but so far on all these guys. But not all will leave us with the same what if. So it’s best to not think about it much.
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Complain about Wojo not pulling more Michigan kids away from Izzo ... then wonder why some think you have unrealistic expectations.
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How solid was Greg’s MSU offer? Was it one of those “wait and see” deals where he’d get the scholly if other guys turned it down? I don’t know much about the inside details of recruiting, but I’ve heard that not all scholarship offers are created equal. I have a hard time believing that MSU was seriously targeting Greg, who’s a nice player but not “Izzo’s living in his high school gym” nice.
But hey, people have actually said on here that Traci Carter was a recruiting “miss” for Jay Wright, so who knows.
Based on the timeline of Greg's 247 recruiting profile he took two unofficials and an official there before committing to MU, I would have to look deeper into the "offered" and "committed" dates of their other targets, and while I'm sure Izzo wasn't "living in his gym", the offer was legit.
Only real take i have from this thread isthat in 5+ years Wojo has failed to land a high major PG. Im in Wojos camp but that is pathetic and it has been a major thirn in our side in each season
Even after reclassifying, Markus was listed as the number 8 PG (per 247, Cassius was also 7) in his class, and played PG for the USA. He hasn't developed into a PG, but he certainly was a top tier PG target. I remember watching Traci and Haanif struggle at times, and think that Markus was a "must have". Also while not a high school recruit, Rowsey was a very solid PG. His deficiencies came on the other end of the court. It was magnified this year because of Greg's injury and Chartouny not panning out, and PG is the biggest question mark going forward, but just look at the total number of transfers this year to see that you don't necessarily need to get a top high school prospect.
https://247sports.com/Season/2016-Basketball/RecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=HighSchool&Position=PG
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Scoop Mind Hive: "We need more talent!!!"
<Wojo recruits a couple major guys who go elsewhere.>
Scoop Mind Hive: "Why is he wasting time recruiting those guys!!!"
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Symir Torrance
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IMO it is not so much the loss of the top guys noted in this thread, but more the drop off of the plan B guys landed. Love Wojo chasing the big boys and hope he continues chasing the best of the best. I question his talent evaluation in regards to what his backup plan looks like. If Theo and Traci Carter were Tillman and Winston replacements, either overestimating plan B talent or scrambling to get bodies.
I will say this for Wojo, if he has ability to land whales, and very well might, I would give him all the time needed to land them. Everyone talks about having stomach for a rebuild, I have the stomach for a decade rebuild if the end result has studs on the team. The only reason I would give Wojo more rope is simply based off potential big time recruiting. At this point, the jury is out, but he might prove to be a big time recruiter.
As for someone that said we were never getting those guys, I am pretty confident that is not the case with all guys noted. I think MU was much closer to landing a couple of guys than you might think.
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Complain about Wojo not pulling more Michigan kids away from Izzo ... then wonder why some think you have unrealistic expectations.
This. Izzo is very well respected in Michigan by players and coaches at the AAU and high school level. He was recruiting Cassius Winston very early on in his high school career, as well as Xavier Tillman. It was goign to be very hard for Wojo to win those recruiting battles. Wojo got the leg up on Izzo and recruited and offered Greg Elliott earlier than MSU did, so when Izzo came calling after Greg had a phenomenal senior year Wojo had built up credibility with Greg that helped him choose Marquette over MSU. It was a very real offer form MSU but Marquette beat MSU to the punch there.
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Goose, good point on the plan B talent. I'm not down as much on Theo are you seem to be, but Wojo seems to take chances on some guys. Some don't pan out - like Carter. And some do end up being solid contributors, but they'll never be stars - like Theo and Sacar.
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Goose-
Wojo was hoping to land both Tillman and John. Missing on Tillman lead to Froling and Morrow being added as transfers.
Traci Carter was the plan b after Nick Noskowiak had his personal life go off the rails. Wojo then targeted Winston in the next class but quickly realized Michigan State was the heavy favorite. Wojo moved on to Rowsey, then made Howard a priority for 2017. But Howard reclassified late so Wojo took him in 2016. So 2017 became a non-PG year.
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Headband
I was speaking in general terms. Wojo has gone after the right guys, IMO, but plan B has been a major drop off from plan A. Hey, this is as close I am going to get to giving Wojo a hall pass. I love chasing the big boys, and again, I am not willing to say he cannot land 'em in the future. I only question the guys he did land. Major, major, major talent decline over first choice.
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to Cassius Winston's choice of MSU over MU as the point that defines Wojo's MU coaching resume. Similar to Majerus' loss of Ricky Olson and Joe Wolf. Rick could never get over the hump at MU. History may repeat, aina?
Those two prospects would have changed the trajectory for sure. As both kids ended up performing to their potential. I think Dwayne Johnson ineligibility was the straw that broke the camel back for Majerus.
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Symir Torrance
Torrence
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Herman
I was big, big time DJ guy, but he was not the straw that broke the camel's back. 4ever is completely correct that Rick's recruiting heartbreaks was to much for Rick to overcome at that point in his career. He was young, inexperienced HC and his confidence was severely affected. He chased the right guys, but when they were lost, a big part of his confidence was as well. Again, the comparison with Rick may very well be history repeating itself.
When Rick returned to college ball he no longer chased the whales. He recruited guys that he liked, he could coach and actually ended up being a very lazy recruiter. In his case, he ultimately became one of the great coaching minds of the last 30-40 years and could field a competitive team with just about anyone suiting up.
Kind of like my harping on Wojo having a system, sooner or later a coach has to have an identity. Rick's became being a top five coach in college ball. I would prefer if Wojo's ends up including a slew of 4 and 5 star players. Time will tell.
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Just trying to help you with the timeline Goose. In the 2020 class, I agree that Wojo needs several plan A level targets.
Torrence is a good start but still need 2-3 players at that level. Even better if Wojo lands 4.
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I think the last 5 star that came here was Kerry Trotter.
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I think the last 5 star that came here was Kerry Trotter.
Ellenson was a McDonalds AA.
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I think the last 5 star that came here was Kerry Trotter.
Vander and Henry were 5 stars.
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Just trying to help you with the timeline Goose. In the 2020 class, I agree that Wojo needs several plan A level targets.
Torrence is a good start but still need 2-3 players at that level. Even better if Wojo lands 4.
I don't know that we absolutely must land any more 4+ star players (to be clear I'm not sure if that's what you meant). From a pure ranking perspective Wojo has landed some incredibly high-ranked recruits. Torrence is definitely up there.
My question at this point is whether it is the right mix. I would prefer him to recruit towards our weaknesses (weaknesses we have now and in the next couple seasons) at this point. We need more glue players, and especially players with excellent dribbling/athleticism/passing ability. We need to free up our primary scorers (Markus, Sam) to do what they do best.
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A team loaded with 5-stars (including a once-in-a-generation talent) and coached by one of the two most accomplished college basketball coaches ever lost on a 3-point shot by a guy who walked on at Michigan State.
And while that 5-star-loaded team isn't in the Final Four, a Texas Tech team coached by a guy who came out of Arkansas-Little Rock and has zero 5-stars (and not many 4-stars) has a great shot at a national title.
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A team loaded with 5-stars (including a once-in-a-generation talent) and coached by one of the two most accomplished college basketball coaches ever lost on a 3-point shot by a guy who walked on at Michigan State.
And while that 5-star-loaded team isn't in the Final Four, a Texas Tech team coached by a guy who came out of Arkansas-Little Rock and has zero 5-stars (and not many 4-stars) has a great shot at a national title.
So, you are saying that the total team is greater than the sum of the parts? We could say that about Buzz coached teams, Crean coached teams, and heck, even Deane coached teams. Wojo coached teams.......
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A team loaded with 5-stars (including a once-in-a-generation talent) and coached by one of the two most accomplished college basketball coaches ever lost on a 3-point shot by a guy who walked on at Michigan State.
And while that 5-star-loaded team isn't in the Final Four, a Texas Tech team coached by a guy who came out of Arkansas-Little Rock and has zero 5-stars (and not many 4-stars) has a great shot at a national title.
That's because the Coach is a 5*...MU doesn't have a Coach that is, therefore, for as long as Wojo is here, he needs the star talent to overcome his own deficiencies. The top talent would make him look better.
Wojo can swim in ponds with the blue bloods all he wants, but unless/until he lands some of them, it doesn't mean jack.
People talk about Henry...Henry was a Wisconsin kid..Land a 5 star or McDonald's All American from Texas(as an example), that had offers from UNC, DUKE, Kentucky etc..THEN we can be impressed.
I can send texts to the hottest women on the planet and show I'm "interested", but it means nothing unless I actually get one to date me.
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D'Lo
Agreed. We do not need to only recruit four and five stars and need to recruit guys that fit together. That has been my point the last month or two. You have to recruit studs or recruit guys that compliment each others skills. Wojo has struggled in doing that. As I mentioned on this thread, I love him chasing stars, just wish back up plan meshed together better than it has to date.
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I don't know that we absolutely must land any more 4+ star players (to be clear I'm not sure if that's what you meant). From a pure ranking perspective Wojo has landed some incredibly high-ranked recruits. Torrence is definitely up there.
My question at this point is whether it is the right mix. I would prefer him to recruit towards our weaknesses (weaknesses we have now and in the next couple seasons) at this point. We need more glue players, and especially players with excellent dribbling/athleticism/passing ability. We need to free up our primary scorers (Markus, Sam) to do what they do best.
Rankings never tell the whole story. System fit, culture fit, work ethic, having a well rounded team, etc., also must be considered.
So I look at rankings as one piece of information but also try to form my own opinion on players. Then I reevaluate when they get to campus and reevaluate throughout their career.
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So, you are saying that the total team is greater than the sum of the parts? We could say that about Buzz coached teams, Crean coached teams, and heck, even Deane coached teams. Wojo coached teams.......
I was not trying to make a "point." I just thought it was interesting info.
I believe we don't know yet how good a coach Wojo can be. Others are already sure he sucks and will never be any good. Maybe one "side" or the other will be proven right in the next year or so.
I also don't know if Crean has shown he can coach greater than the parts of any team he's had. Deane's inferior parts were his own fault. Yes, as to Buzz ... except in his last year at Marquette.
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And with the Henry thing. Let's not pretend we didn't totally offer his brother to lure him here
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That's because the Coach is a 5*...
I'm far too lazy to go back and look, guru, so if you'll kindly link to your posts calling for us to hire Chris Beard out of Angelo State after Buzz left in 2014.
For that matter, if you can kindly link to your posts demanding that Marquette hire any guy whose resume included 1 season at a National Christian College school, 2 seasons at a Division II school and 1 season at a Sun Belt school after Buzz left, I'd actually agree that you (as you once bragged) "know things others don't."
It's real easy to look at Beard now and call him a 5*. But I'm guessing that if we hired a coach with his resume -- 4 seasons as a head coach, and only one at the D1 level -- Scoopers would have been screaming about us "settling," and you would have been among the loudest.
Hell, given the cacophony of complainin' when we hired Buzz, hiring a guy with Beard's background would make Scoop deafening.
So yeah, Beard seemingly has turned out to be a wonderful coach. But you already have said many, many, many, MANY times that you don't want us to hire a guy with no high-major experience. So you don't get to "hire" Beard now.
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Trotter was a mcdonalds AA
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Just as I expect Wojo's in game coaching ability to improve over time, I also expect his recruiting ability will improve over time. Needs to deliver in a big way in 2020. Torrence is a great start. Let's see who else he reels in.
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MU was linked with Nojel Eastern at some point as well. Not sure how close, but it was in a Borzello? article. He would have helped this year too.
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I'm far too lazy to go back and look, guru, so if you'll kindly link to your posts calling for us to hire Chris Beard out of Angelo State after Buzz left in 2014.
For that matter, if you can kindly link to your posts demanding that Marquette hire any guy whose resume included 1 season at a National Christian College school, 2 seasons at a Division II school and 1 season at a Sun Belt school after Buzz left, I'd actually agree that you (as you once bragged) "know things others don't."
It's real easy to look at Beard now and call him a 5*. But I'm guessing that if we hired a coach with his resume -- 4 seasons as a head coach, and only one at the D1 level -- Scoopers would have been screaming about us "settling," and you would have been among the loudest.
Hell, given the cacophony of complainin' when we hired Buzz, hiring a guy with Beard's background would make Scoop deafening.
So yeah, Beard seemingly has turned out to be a wonderful coach. But you already have said many, many, many, MANY times that you don't want us to hire a guy with no high-major experience. So you don't get to "hire" Beard now.
Yup.
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D'Lo
Agreed. We do not need to only recruit four and five stars and need to recruit guys that fit together. That has been my point the last month or two. You have to recruit studs or recruit guys that compliment each others skills. Wojo has struggled in doing that. As I mentioned on this thread, I love him chasing stars, just wish back up plan meshed together better than it has to date.
Butt-slapping and "good game, bro!"s all around!
Sorry, I had to. I have agreed with your posts on this recently. We have to have faith in Wojo to bring in unheralded guys from various backgrounds. From what I have read on here from people that know about the recruiting trail much more than I, as well as on 247/elsewhere, it seems that Wojo is still predominantly spending his time on the well-known blue blood types. Perhaps there just aren't as many unheralded guys out there as there used to be, but my suspicion is that they don't spend much time looking in unconventional places, the 2-star bin, etc. The role players that might suit the team best over the next 1-2 years might not be top-100 prospects at all. Passing, dribbling, defense, speed etc are skills we desperately need... IMO, we don't need a star to come in and save the day.
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And with the Henry thing. Let's not pretend we didn't totally offer his brother to lure him here
Anyone who claims that Wojo runs a clean program needs to investigate the whole Wally thing.
Disgusting.
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Anyone who claims that Wojo runs a clean program needs to investigate the whole Wally thing.
Disgusting.
Aren't you the same guy who doesn't want to talk about how dirty programs are? Or, is that only with Pearl?
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Anyone who claims that Wojo runs a clean program needs to investigate the whole Wally thing.
Disgusting.
Hardly. Wally wasn't good enough to make the team. Basketball scholarships are earned. Despite this, Wojo made sure Wally had options to either finish his degree at Marquette on scholarship or graduate transfer to another university to play basketball. Wally decided to party with his NBA bound brother instead.
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I saw a great picture of Xavier holding his two year old daughter and trying to get her to hold up 4 fingers. She and her mother live an hour from East Lansing. They live 4.5 hours from Milwaukee.
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Hardly. Wally wasn't good enough to make the team. Basketball scholarships are earned. Despite this, Wojo made sure Wally had options to either finish his degree at Marquette on scholarship or graduate transfer to another university to play basketball. Wally decided to party with his NBA bound brother instead.
And this is exactly why I don't understand people's angst when it "appears" players get "run off" at different places. Scholarships are year to year..there's no guarantee you will have one all four years. If you can find a better player(which is a Coach's job, to find the best talent), and you lose your scholarship because of that...well, guess what?? Life is full of adversity...learn from it, grow from it, and become a better person because of it. It happens. That same kid may lose a job at some point in his life to..then what??
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Anyone who claims that Wojo runs a clean program needs to investigate the whole Wally thing.
Disgusting.
You mean the player that was asked to either fully commit to basketball in a way comparable to the other 12 scholarship players OR accept a track only FULL scholarship such that he might finish his degree? That 'Wally thing'? ::)
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Only real take i have from this thread isthat in 5+ years Wojo has failed to land a high major PG. Im in Wojos camp but that is pathetic and it has been a major thirn in our side in each season
What high major point guards did Buzz recruit? Derrick Wilson, Magic Dawson come to mind. Junior was lambasted by everyone on this board until after he left. Duane Wilson was never a PG but a combo guard that struggled with injuries. Anyone else?
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You mean the player that was asked to either fully commit to basketball in a way comparable to the other 12 scholarship players OR accept a track only FULL scholarship such that he might finish his degree? That 'Wally thing'? ::)
Smoke and mirrors
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What high major point guards did Buzz recruit? Derrick Wilson, Magic Dawson come to mind. Junior was lambasted by everyone on this board until after he left. Duane Wilson was never a PG but a combo guard that struggled with injuries. Anyone else?
Reggie Smith
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Reggie Smith wasn't a high major point guard.
Junior was ranked higher (top 100) and was actually good at playing basketball.
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Reggie Smith wasn't a high major point guard.
Junior was ranked higher (top 100) and was actually good at playing basketball.
I was just playing around, but to be fair you listed Dawson and while he was better than Smith I'm not sure you can include him as a high major PG either... unless you're ners.
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I didn't list anyone. But yeah Dawson wasn't one either.
I don't think there a lot of high major point guard options out there. Pretty much everyone is using some sort of combo guard with the top "pure points" going to blue bloods.
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Pretty much everyone is using some sort of combo guard with the top "pure points" going to blue bloods.
Like Murray St.
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Like Murray St.
Ja Morant was an unheralded, 6-2 combo guard who received exactly one offer from a P6 school: South Carolina.
https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-mens-basketball/article227322244.html
From the article:
South Carolina signed five players in that 2017 class, including David Beatty, a four-star guard out of Philadelphia. A much less heralded Morant committed to Murray State on Sept. 2, 2016, while on his official visit to the Racers.
The decision came before Morant took an official visit to USC. Turns out he was interested in the smaller school.
Had Morant been a 4-star or 5-star PG or combo guard in HS, the bluebloods would have been all over him. He was considered a raw talent and a project.
I think you already knew all that, Lenny, but just wanted to get it out there for the record.
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A team loaded with 5-stars (including a once-in-a-generation talent) and coached by one of the two most accomplished college basketball coaches ever lost on a 3-point shot by a guy who walked on at Michigan State.
to be fair here, Goings had been promised a scholarship in future years. He turned down other D1 offers to go to MSU.
I don't believe you can say that losing a kid from Michigan to Michigan State is a defining point in Wojo's recruiting. A Wisconsin kid, perhaps (e.g. Joey) but not a kid who likely grew up dreaming of playing for MSU.
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Herman
I was big, big time DJ guy, but he was not the straw that broke the camel's back. 4ever is completely correct that Rick's recruiting heartbreaks was to much for Rick to overcome at that point in his career. He was young, inexperienced HC and his confidence was severely affected. He chased the right guys, but when they were lost, a big part of his confidence was as well. Again, the comparison with Rick may very well be history repeating itself.
When Rick returned to college ball he no longer chased the whales. He recruited guys that he liked, he could coach and actually ended up being a very lazy recruiter. In his case, he ultimately became one of the great coaching minds of the last 30-40 years and could field a competitive team with just about anyone suiting up.
Kind of like my harping on Wojo having a system, sooner or later a coach has to have an identity. Rick's became being a top five coach in college ball. I would prefer if Wojo's ends up including a slew of 4 and 5 star players. Time will tell.
I agree with you on the recruiting strategy part of Majerus tenure at MU. I am just saying that if DJ comes back for that 84-85 season, MU would likely have had enough more wins to get in the tournament and also be in the top 20 for most of the year. The line up would have 3 good /very good skills guys ( Mandy Johnson, DJ and Trotter) plus a couple of serviceable bigs (Copa and Downing) . That theoretical team may have been good enough to change the trajectory of the program under Majerus to one that was moving up.
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I was just playing around, but to be fair you listed Dawson and while he was better than Smith I'm not sure you can include him as a high major PG either... unless you're ners.
I was not series with my list. The point is perception. People are talking about the legend of Buzz and how embarrassing Wojos performance has been related to recruiting a PG. in reality MU hasn’t had a good point guard since Junior and people ripped the crap out of him which would make DJ the last really good point guard.
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You mean the player that was asked to either fully commit to basketball in a way comparable to the other 12 scholarship players OR accept a track only FULL scholarship such that he might finish his degree? That 'Wally thing'? ::)
When you get the complete story then we can talk. Because the version of events you just recited ain't what happened.
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When you get the complete story then we can talk. Because the version of events you just recited ain't what happened.
Break the news and clear it all up for us then. You don't want to let misinformation linger right?
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When you get the complete story then we can talk. Because the version of events you just recited ain't what happened.
You are right, he was cut because he wasn't good enough to make the team. Unlike most student-athletes who are cut for not being good, Wally was given the option to stay on with a full track scholarship or finish up his last classes in the first summer semester so he could graduate and transfer somewhere else to play basketball. Wally choose option number three, quit school and party with his brother. What about any of that shows that Wojo is a dirty coach?
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You are right, he was cut because he wasn't good enough to make the team. Unlike most student-athletes who are cut for not being good, Wally was given the option to stay on with a full track scholarship or finish up his last classes in the first summer semester so he could graduate and transfer somewhere else to play basketball. Wally choose option number three, quit school and party with his brother. What about any of that shows that Wojo is a dirty coach?
Nothing.
But, of course, you've got to look at the bias of the poster you're attempting to have a reasonable dialogue with.
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DJ was a very good point guard his senior year when he decided to stop jacking up bad 3's to prove he could shoot.
Prior to his senior year, he was good freshman year. But I really thought, as a point guard, he did not do well his sophomore and junior years. He tried way to hard to get his and take his 3's, despite the results.
Fro me, Junior left a lot to be desired. I am a believer that a point guard has to be able to breakdown a defender and draw a secondary defender AND has to be able to hit the 3.
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I have always felt that Junior was the "acceptable floor" for our program.
In other words, we should never field a team with a PG who is less talented than Junior Cadougan.
Unfortunately, since he left, we have fielded many teams with PGs who were less talented.
Am excited to see if Koby and/or Symir are as good as advertised. JCS, obviously, was not.
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Wojo has landed several players that bluebloods and near-bluebloods very much wanted. He has recruited well enough to average 21 wins over the last 4 years, to get us into the postseason the last 3 years and to make us legit contenders for our conference title.
That equals "good" IMHO, but it means he still has to recruit even better to get us where we all (including Wojo) want us to be. And I think he will.
And as others have already stated, Torrence is a 4-star PG whom Virginia, Syracuse and Maryland (among others) offered.
But sure, he's swung and missed, too. Name a coach who hasn't, especially a coach at a non-blueblood.
...the coaches at Virginia, Syracuse and Maryland who missed on Torrence.
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Like Murray St.
Please, Lenny. It's not known as Murray State. It is now commonly referred to as, "The Juggernaut"
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You are right, he was cut because he wasn't good enough to make the team. Unlike most student-athletes who are cut for not being good, Wally was given the option to stay on with a full track scholarship or finish up his last classes in the first summer semester so he could graduate and transfer somewhere else to play basketball. Wally choose option number three, quit school and party with his brother. What about any of that shows that Wojo is a dirty coach?
I know we have been through these semantics before. Wally’s scholarship was not renewed but he was offered the option of staying in the team as a walk on and paying his tuition. Alternatively, if he wanted to finish on scholarship he could utilize his final year of eligibility in indoor track . However because NCAA refs prohibit students who on scholarship in other sports from Playing football and basketball, Wally could not elect the track option and play basketball. It was all a mute point because he ultimately graduated that summer and never did use the track option.
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I have always felt that Junior was the "acceptable floor" for our program.
In other words, we should never field a team with a PG who is less talented than Junior Cadougan.
Unfortunately, since he left, we have fielded many teams with PGs who were less talented.
Am excited to see if Koby and/or Symir are as good as advertised. JCS, obviously, was not.
I don't see Symir as a PG, but rather one of those athletic 6'4" guards that always give us trouble.
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I don't see Symir as a PG, but rather one of those athletic 6'4" guards that always give us trouble.
I am gonna go out on a limb here and say Wojo isn't so big on traditional floor general PGs. Might be a step too far due to not enough evidence yet, but what we have seen is him chasing after a couple of these types and never really having much of a backup plan for it. I am left to assume (as a casual fan) that he prefers guards to share those responsibilities. From what I can see he has actually recruited two types of guards: shooters and slashers.
I kind of wish he would bring in a primary ball handler as we have a clear idea on what Markus and Sam would be best at... And that is probably not having to create everything from scratch.
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You are right, he was cut because he wasn't good enough to make the team. Unlike most student-athletes who are cut for not being good, Wally was given the option to stay on with a full track scholarship or finish up his last classes in the first summer semester so he could graduate and transfer somewhere else to play basketball. Wally choose option number three, quit school and party with his brother. What about any of that shows that Wojo is a dirty coach?
I'm not sure I would call Wojo a 'dirty' coach. But the Wally episode was exceedingly mercenary.
And for anyone who thinks Wojo is a 'nice' guy I hate to tell you but he's an pretty boy of a person.
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In the grand scheme of things the Wally thing was a big nothing.
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I'm not sure I would call Wojo a 'dirty' coach. But the Wally episode was exceedingly mercenary.
And for anyone who thinks Wojo is a 'nice' guy I hate to tell you but he's an pretty boy of a person.
I heard he doesn't even have any patents!
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You are right, he was cut because he wasn't good enough to make the team.
He was good enough to get two years of scholarships for one year of sitting out and one year of mostly riding the pines - the years Henry was recruited and played for Marquette. Once Henry opted for the NBA Wally morphed into a player not good enough to make the team.
Nothing wrong with this IMHO. Wojo gets paid a lot of money to win basketball games for MU and sometimes cold blooded decisions have to be made in that pursuit. Wally, DJ Newbill and Damian Saunders are just different versions of the same story.
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I'm not sure I would call Wojo a 'dirty' coach. But the Wally episode was exceedingly mercenary.
And for anyone who thinks Wojo is a 'nice' guy I hate to tell you but he's an pretty boy of a person.
Wojo ain't pretty.
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-IwehbGh9soQ/VXu_gKUsklI/AAAAAAAAOE8/ah5DWQwagG0/s1600/Loake%2BBlack%2BPatent.jpg)
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Nothing wrong with this IMHO. Wojo gets paid a lot of money to win basketball games for MU and sometimes cold blooded decisions have to be made in that pursuit. Wally, DJ Newbill and Damian Saunders are just different versions of the same story.
Not really. There were a lot of complexities for Saunders situation and in the end, he didn't do what he was supposed to do and may have engaged in activities that cost him his spot at MU. He was definitely wanted at MU.
Newbill was just plain screwed over by Buzz.
I don't know the situation with Wally not returning but do know MU was willing to make a very generous arrangement to finish his degree and continue his track and field training.
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He was good enough to get two years of scholarships for one year of sitting out and one year of mostly riding the pines - the years Henry was recruited and played for Marquette. Once Henry opted for the NBA Wally morphed into a player not good enough to make the team.
Nothing wrong with this IMHO. Wojo gets paid a lot of money to win basketball games for MU and sometimes cold blooded decisions have to be made in that pursuit. Wally, DJ Newbill and Damian Saunders are just different versions of the same story.
Lenny
There is a profound difference between a kid getting recruited over and the Wally saga. In the former the kid is seen as a potential contributor. In the case of Wally, it was a clear case of getting his brother to sign.
Wojo needs to be careful because there are at least two WI families of D I players who do not think highly of Wojo.
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Lenny
There is a profound difference between a kid getting recruited over and the Wally saga. In the former the kid is seen as a potential contributor. In the case of Wally, it was a clear case of getting his brother to sign.
Wojo needs to be careful because there are at least two WI families of D I players who do not think highly of Wojo.
Who's the second? Duane Wilson's fam?
Either way seems like he gets some great pub from the Hausers
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Not really. There were a lot of complexities for Saunders situation and in the end, he didn't do what he was supposed to do and may have engaged in activities that cost him his spot at MU. He was definitely wanted at MU.
Newbill was just plain screwed over by Buzz.
I don't know the situation with Wally not returning but do know MU was willing to make a very generous arrangement to finish his degree and continue his track and field training.
To summarize:
Crean = above reproach
Wojo = above reproach
Buzz = evil incarnate
Yep, this is definitely not Chico.
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Lenny
There is a profound difference between a kid getting recruited over and the Wally saga. In the former the kid is seen as a potential contributor. In the case of Wally, it was a clear case of getting his brother to sign.
Wojo needs to be careful because there are at least two WI families of D I players who do not think highly of Wojo.
DJ Newbill was not simply recruited over. He was offered, he signed, and then the coaching staff stiff armed him so he wouldn't turn in his application. He had to then hook on late elsewhere.
Wojo gave Wally a scholarship. Of course it was so he had a better chance to get Henry. He was also given time to show what he had on the court. It wasn't worth him continuing. Yet he was still given the ability to finish his schooling under scholarship and compete in his other athletic endeavor.
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DJ Newbill was not simply recruited over. He was offered, he signed, and then the coaching staff stiff armed him so he wouldn't turn in his application. He had to then hook on late elsewhere.
The coaching staff is the one party that held his application. They got a chance to get Jerel and had to screw someone over, it was Newbill.
Don't forget how they ran Roseboro at the end of the summer either. What they saw in him initially I'll never know but don't bring him in for the summer than run him so he'd have to sit out as a transfer. At least Newbill could go elsewhere and play immediately
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The coaching staff is the one party that held his application. They got a chance to get Jerel and had to screw someone over, it was Newbill.
Don't forget how they ran Roseboro at the end of the summer either. What they saw in him initially I'll never know but don't bring him in for the summer than run him so he'd have to sit out as a transfer. At least Newbill could go elsewhere and play immediately
Huh? Jerel? You are way off, man.
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The coaching staff is the one party that held his application. They got a chance to get Jerel and had to screw someone over, it was Newbill.
Don't forget how they ran Roseboro at the end of the summer either. What they saw in him initially I'll never know but don't bring him in for the summer than run him so he'd have to sit out as a transfer. At least Newbill could go elsewhere and play immediately
The whole DJ Newbill things was puzzling. The kid was an extremely high level talent and his production proved that out.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/53149/dj-newbill
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Jamil Wilson. Not Jerel.
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Jamil Wilson. Not Jerel.
Davante
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Don't forget how they ran Roseboro at the end of the summer either. What they saw in him initially I'll never know but don't bring him in for the summer than run him so he'd have to sit out as a transfer. At least Newbill could go elsewhere and play immediately
Also false. Roseboro didn’t have to sit when he went to St. Bonnie’s.
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Also false. Roseboro didn’t have to sit when he went to St. Bonnie’s.
You don't sit The Beast.
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Also false. Roseboro didn’t have to sit when he went to St. Bonnie’s.
he had to get a waiver because he'd enrolled in summer school on aid which triggers transfer status.
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Wojo needs to be careful because there are at least two WI families of D I players who do not think highly of Wojo.
This might be true, Crash. Most folks are far more connected to the ins and outs of the program than I am, and you are part of "most folks."
However ...
We heard the exact same "warning" when Wojo was trying to seal the deal with Joey, who was coveted by bluebloods and other fine programs.
If the Hausers thought Wojo was squirmy with the Ellensons, or if Sam had a terrible experience as a freshman, Sam would have transferred -- after what he showed his fine freshman year, he would have had tons of suitors -- and they never would have let their precious younger son be coached by the evil Wojo.
Unless I'm missing something. Always possible.
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Davante
It was Jamil (my bad, I had just typed "Jerel" in another post) triggering the reason DJ got hosed. I don't know if anyone took a scholarship so they needed to get rid of Roseboro of they just told him to hit the road after the summer because he wasn't good enough.
DJ Newbill’s path to Penn State was incredibly unique. A talented combo guard from Philadelphia’s Strawberry Mansion High School, Newbill was recruited by Marquette and then-coach Buzz Williams after a standout senior year. He committed and signed a letter of intent, and was ready to spend the next four years in Milwaukee. However, when Oregon forward Jamil Wilson chose to transfer to Marquette, Williams and the Golden Eagles decided to pull Newbill’s scholarship to make room. Newbill explained the situation to OS alum Bill DiFilippo last year in a piece for SLAM Magazine.
“After the school year was over, it was time for me start with the paperwork and getting into the school…then I got a phone call and Buzz was telling me…actually he called my high school coach and he told me that they were gonna take my scholarship and use it to go another route. They wanted me to go to prep school and recruit me all over again for the following year because they had given out too many scholarships.”
https://onwardstate.com/2014/12/03/the-marquette-connection-dj-newbill-and-the-scholarship-that-wasnt/
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I noted this line in the Newbill article :
"Buzz Williams, the man who cut him loose in that ethically questionable move, will be on the sideline across from him for the first time on Wednesday, when the Hokies of Virginia Tech come to town."
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The 2010-11 team played 10 scholarship players and had Wilson sitting out. So how exactly did Newbill get cut for Jamil? Who were the other two scholarship players that requires the staff to rescind the offer?
It wasn't Roseboro, he was already at St Bonnie's. It wasn't Jake Thomas, he came the next year (and walked on initially). I don't think that narrative was accurate. It's often told, but the math doesn't add up.
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It was Jamil (my bad, I had just typed "Jerel" in another post) triggering the reason DJ got hosed. I don't know if anyone took a scholarship so they needed to get rid of Roseboro of they just told him to hit the road after the summer because he wasn't good enough.
DJ Newbill’s path to Penn State was incredibly unique. A talented combo guard from Philadelphia’s Strawberry Mansion High School, Newbill was recruited by Marquette and then-coach Buzz Williams after a standout senior year. He committed and signed a letter of intent, and was ready to spend the next four years in Milwaukee. However, when Oregon forward Jamil Wilson chose to transfer to Marquette, Williams and the Golden Eagles decided to pull Newbill’s scholarship to make room. Newbill explained the situation to OS alum Bill DiFilippo last year in a piece for SLAM Magazine.
“After the school year was over, it was time for me start with the paperwork and getting into the school…then I got a phone call and Buzz was telling me…actually he called my high school coach and he told me that they were gonna take my scholarship and use it to go another route. They wanted me to go to prep school and recruit me all over again for the following year because they had given out too many scholarships.”
https://onwardstate.com/2014/12/03/the-marquette-connection-dj-newbill-and-the-scholarship-that-wasnt/
Davante took his scholarship. Newbill’s long time mentor (John Hardnett) had passed away and the arrangement he had with Monarch was that Prep school was always on the table for him (or Devante). Newbill never enrolled if you remember. It was unfortunate and crappy and wasn’t right...but Buzz and staff didn’t even know who his handler was any more...which is why the high school coach got the call.
On your next Bourbon Summit, you and Cheeks ought to fact check your talk points.
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To summarize:
Crean = above reproach
Wojo = above reproach
Buzz = evil incarnate
Yep, this is definitely not Chico.
This is typical "Billy".
Wrong on Jerel/Jamil.
Wrong on Roseboro.
Wrong on Damian Saunders.
Wrong that Crean, Buzz and Wojo didn't essentially do the same thing.
Always wrong, never in doubt. A true "insider". LOL
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This is typical "Billy".
Wrong on Jerel/Jamil.
Wrong on Roseboro.
Wrong on Damian Saunders.
Wrong that Crean, Buzz and Wojo didn't essentially do the same thing.
Always wrong, never in doubt. A true "insider". LOL
Wojo and Buzz did very different things. That's pretty obvious.
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This is typical "Billy".
Wrong on Jerel/Jamil.
Wrong on Roseboro.
Wrong on Damian Saunders.
Wrong that Crean, Buzz and Wojo didn't essentially do the same thing.
Always wrong, never in doubt. A true "insider". LOL
I might add, the prep school stash was definitely a Crean thing that Buzz learned. Lazar, Saunders, Derrick Wilson, Mayo...improve their grades, balance the classes.
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The 2010-11 team played 10 scholarship players and had Wilson sitting out. So how exactly did Newbill get cut for Jamil? Who were the other two scholarship players that requires the staff to rescind the offer?
It wasn't Roseboro, he was already at St Bonnie's. It wasn't Jake Thomas, he came the next year (and walked on initially). I don't think that narrative was accurate. It's often told, but the math doesn't add up.
You may want to double check that Brew. I count 13.
Junior Cadougan
DJO
Jimmy Butler
Jae Crowder
Chris Otule
Dwight Buycks
Vander Blue
Joe Fulce
Davante Gardner
Erik Williams
Jamail Jones
Reggie Smith
Jamil Wilson
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Not really. There were a lot of complexities for Saunders situation and in the end, he didn't do what he was supposed to do and may have engaged in activities that cost him his spot at MU. He was definitely wanted at MU.
Newbill was just plain screwed over by Buzz.
I don't know the situation with Wally not returning but do know MU was willing to make a very generous arrangement to finish his degree and continue his track and field training.
You’re tone of absolutes on one hand while rationalizing the other is comical
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To summarize:
Crean = above reproach
Wojo = above reproach
Buzz = evil incarnate
Yep, this is definitely not Chico.
It’s not me, but some of the weak mind are easily swayed.
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It’s not me, but some of the weak mind are easily swayed.
Lest we forget hoopaloop another alter ego incarnation. Purdue grad and all things anti Chicos, except for the fact that it was Chico. Split poersonality disorder often has divergent personalities. And when he is off his meds, anything goes
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Lest we forget hoopaloop another alter ego incarnation. Purdue grad and all things anti Chicos, except for the fact that it was Chico. Split poersonality disorder often has divergent personalities. And when he is off his meds, anything goes
Ok sunshine, I mean AhoyaBallscout, Blackswan, etc.
Billy can prove he isn’t me in a heartbeat....I just need Lenny to say he is in for charitable donation.
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On your next Bourbon Summit, you and Cheeks ought to fact check your talk points.
Sigh. Are you and others in on the charity? Billy and I prove you wrong, you guys have to donate to charity of my choosing....I'll tell you right now that children will benefit.
Please commit to this, along with the others so we can help kids.
Billy, I know you said you worry about exposing who you are based on what you do....but I have a solution that will still work that these jokers cannot refute.
It's for the kids. Who's in?
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Sigh. Are you and others in on the charity? Billy and I prove you wrong, you guys have to donate to charity of my choosing....I'll tell you right now that children will benefit.
Please commit to this, along with the others so we can help kids.
Billy, I know you said you worry about exposing who you are based on what you do....but I have a solution that will still work that these jokers cannot refute.
It's for the kids. Who's in?
Let’s talk. I find it a perfect example of being insecure in one’s beliefs if they refuse to believe more than one person could hold a counter belief or know information that threatens their world view.
I have met Cheeks, once, in New Orleans. He got met tickets to the Final Four. We met in the lobby of the Hotel Monteleone. That’s it. He hasn’t been in my kitchen.
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This is typical "Billy".
Wrong on Jerel/Jamil.
Wrong on Roseboro.
Wrong on Damian Saunders.
Wrong that Crean, Buzz and Wojo didn't essentially do the same thing.
Always wrong, never in doubt. A true "insider". LOL
So, I provided the link for Newbill. Dispute that.
How was I “wrong” on Roseboro.” He needed a waiver.
How was I wrong about Saunders? Crean wanted him at MU.
None of the situations were “essentially the same thing.”
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I have met Cheeks, once, in New Orleans. He got met tickets to the Final Four. We met in the lobby of the Hotel Monteleone. That’s it. He hasn’t been in my kitchen.
I’m convinced that Cheeks and Billy are not the same person for one reason: Billy confirmed for me that Cheeks was wrong about “partial scholarships” in head count sports.
I knew Cheeks pretty well in my MU days (and was probably even in his kitchen a time or two). I’ve never been in Billy’s kitchen, but we’ve discovered we have some mutual connections based upon his line of work.
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I’m convinced that Cheeks and Billy are not the same person for one reason: Billy confirmed for me that Cheeks was wrong about “partial scholarships” in head count sports.
I knew Cheeks pretty well in my MU days (and was probably even in his kitchen a time or two). I’ve never been in Billy’s kitchen, but we’ve discovered we have some mutual connections based upon his line of work.
You are a smart man.
The funny thing is that it wasn't until about 2 weeks ago that I finally guessed who Billy was and PM'd him.
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So, I provided the link for Newbill. Dispute that.
How was I “wrong” on Roseboro.” He needed a waiver.
How was I wrong about Saunders? Crean wanted him at MU.
None of the situations were “essentially the same thing.”
1.We all know the Newbill story. Dis I say differently?
2.You said Roseboro had to sit out. He didn't.
3.Crean "wanting" Saunders is beside the point. I'm sure Buzz would have "wanted" Newbill too. Neither could give the scholarship they promised because they didn't have one.
4. Of course they were.
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FFS. Not remotely the same thing.
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4. Of course they were.
Uhm, not even close. You are twisting the pretzel so many times it is embarrassing.
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Lenny
There is a profound difference between a kid getting recruited over and the Wally saga. In the former the kid is seen as a potential contributor. In the case of Wally, it was a clear case of getting his brother to sign.
Wojo needs to be careful because there are at least two WI families of D I players who do not think highly of Wojo.
While I agree the situations are different, as I recall, we did not use all of our scholarships Wally's year, so I didn't think it was so bad. Somehow dumping one player so you can sign another seems worse to me.
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Uhm, not even close. You are twisting the pretzel so many times it is embarrassing.
LOL - not surprised you don't like the facts. And for you to call anything anyone else on this board says "embarrassing" is without a doubt the most unintentionally funny things ever written on Scoop.
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Sigh. Are you and others in on the charity? Billy and I prove you wrong, you guys have to donate to charity of my choosing....I'll tell you right now that children will benefit.
Please commit to this, along with the others so we can help kids.
Billy, I know you said you worry about exposing who you are based on what you do....but I have a solution that will still work that these jokers cannot refute.
It's for the kids. Who's in?
What are you proving me wrong on, oh cheeky one? Billy himself told me you met up for a Borbon Summit. Are your stories getting mixed up again?
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What are you proving me wrong on, oh cheeky one? Billy himself told me you met up for a Borbon Summit. Are your stories getting mixed up again?
How are my stories getting mixed up, we aren't the same people no matter how much you want to be wrong on this one.
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How are my stories getting mixed up, we aren't the same people no matter how much you want to be wrong on this one.
First, I was addressing your new best internet friend Billy who told me you guys met at a Borbon Summit. You both argue the same things about Buzz and don't quite have all sides of the stories down correctly. I was pointing that out.
As to your Baby Jesus persecution, take it elsewhere.
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1.We all know the Newbill story. Dis I say differently?
2.You said Roseboro had to sit out. He didn't.
3.Crean "wanting" Saunders is beside the point. I'm sure Buzz would have "wanted" Newbill too. Neither could give the scholarship they promised because they didn't have one.
4. Of course they were.
I didn’t say he HAD to sit out. But he would have if not for a NCAA waiver. Buzz didn’t think about that when he kicked the kid to the curb at the end of the summer. Roseboro was lucky.
Saunders’ not coming to MU wasn’t due to not having a scholarship, it was due to his own failures. If had done what he needed to do, and not done what he did, he’d have been a Golden Eagle. Buzz screwed over Newbill, Saunders screwed himself over.
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What are you proving me wrong on, oh cheeky one? Billy himself told me you met up for a Borbon Summit. Are your stories getting mixed up again?
I don’t drink Bourbon. Scotch for me.
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I didn’t say he HAD to sit out. But he would have if not for a NCAA waiver. Buzz didn’t think about that when he kicked the kid to the curb at the end of the summer. Roseboro was lucky.
Saunders’ not coming to MU wasn’t due to not having a scholarship, it was due to his own failures. If had done what he needed to do, and not done what he did, he’d have been a Golden Eagle. Buzz screwed over Newbill, Saunders screwed himself over.
Bingo!
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I didn’t say he HAD to sit out. But he would have if not for a NCAA waiver. Buzz didn’t think about that when he kicked the kid to the curb at the end of the summer. Roseboro was lucky.
Saunders’ not coming to MU wasn’t due to not having a scholarship, it was due to his own failures. If had done what he needed to do, and not done what he did, he’d have been a Golden Eagle. Buzz screwed over Newbill, Saunders screwed himself over.
BS Saunders was a qualifier.
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I don’t drink Bourbon. Scotch for me.
I stand corrected. Scotch Summit. I hope you stuck Cheeks with the bill.
All kidding aside, I appreciate your contributions here.
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BS Saunders was a qualifier.
Yes, he was. Not what I was referring to.
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Can anyone possibly read this entire string and have anything but one take on Chicos? Or his social issues for that matter?
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you met up for a Borbon Summit.
A convocation to discuss the life and times of Pedro?
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You don't sit The Beast.
I still laugh when I think about Roseboro's phony black accent. The guy actually spoke Ebonics.
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This might be true, Crash. Most folks are far more connected to the ins and outs of the program than I am, and you are part of "most folks."
However ...
We heard the exact same "warning" when Wojo was trying to seal the deal with Joey, who was coveted by bluebloods and other fine programs.
If the Hausers thought Wojo was squirmy with the Ellensons, or if Sam had a terrible experience as a freshman, Sam would have transferred -- after what he showed his fine freshman year, he would have had tons of suitors -- and they never would have let their precious younger son be coached by the evil Wojo.
Unless I'm missing something. Always possible.
Mike
The Ellenson case is materially different than the Hauser's. There is a significant degree of animosity with Wojo in the former for how Wally was treated. Perhaps Wally would have been better served at a lower level but since he was at MU it was thought he could have finished out his time there. As soon as Henry declared Wally was cut loose.
The myth of Wally not being committed to basketball is pure horsesh1t.
The Hauser parents have a completely different beef with Wojo. There is no question the two sons have the talent to be at MU.
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Mike
The Ellenson case is materially different than the Hauser's. There is a significant degree of animosity with Wojo in the former for how Wally was treated. Perhaps Wally would have been better served at a lower level but since he was at MU it was thought he could have finished out his time there. As soon as Henry declared Wally was cut loose.
The myth of Wally not being committed to basketball is pure horsesh1t.
The Hauser parents have a completely different beef with Wojo. There is no question the two sons have the talent to be at MU.
So the hausers don't like Wojo?
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So the hausers don't like Wojo?
Referring to the parents, I wouldn't think The Woj is getting an invite for a Stevens Point Christmas dinner this year
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Referring to the parents, I wouldn't think The Woj is getting an invite for a Stevens Point Christmas dinner this year
You are hearing this from Seattle?
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Referring to the parents, I wouldn't think The Woj is getting an invite for a Stevens Point Christmas dinner this year
Laughable considering Twitter would prove this wrong prior to Wojo's departure.
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Yeah the Hausers do not hate Wojo, to say otherwise is complete and utter horse excrement.
And Wally was allowed to stay and finish out at Marquette. He could have stayed as a walk on for basketball or on a full ride as a track only athlete.
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Referring to the parents, I wouldn't think The Woj is getting an invite for a Stevens Point Christmas dinner this year
Sounds like you've got some bad info.
Or are you purposely spreading false info to discredit a coach you don't like?
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Yeah the Hausers do not hate Wojo, to say otherwise is complete and utter horse excrement.
And Wally was allowed to stay and finish out at Marquette. He could have stayed as a walk on for basketball or on a full ride as a track only athlete.
I didn't say the parents "hate" Wojo. I said they aren't the biggest fans of his.
And please don't whitewash the Wally episode. While there are nuances the bottom line is he was promised a basketball scholarship for the duration. Wojo withdrew the offer. The Ellensons have every right to feel betrayed.
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You are hearing this from Seattle?
PM sent
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Yeah the Hausers do not hate Wojo, to say otherwise is complete and utter horse excrement.
And Wally was allowed to stay and finish out at Marquette. He could have stayed as a walk on for basketball or on a full ride as a track only athlete.
The prior season basketball made Wally do spring skills workouts and he hurt his ankle, affecting his high jump performance. He was mad about this. This caused a rift, especially with his dad getting involved; the same dad who was the reason Wally was out at Minnesota with the demands he was making on Tubby.
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Mike
The Ellenson case is materially different than the Hauser's. There is a significant degree of animosity with Wojo in the former for how Wally was treated. Perhaps Wally would have been better served at a lower level but since he was at MU it was thought he could have finished out his time there. As soon as Henry declared Wally was cut loose.
The myth of Wally not being committed to basketball is pure horsesh1t.
The Hauser parents have a completely different beef with Wojo. There is no question the two sons have the talent to be at MU.
Crash, unless you know first-hand how the Hausers feel, this seems a little over the top to me.
The Hausers had a ton of options, even after Sam was already at MU. If they felt that Wojo wouldn't be good for their sons' futures, they should have pulled Sam out of MU and not let Joey go there. They could have gone to any school in the country; any program would have been thrilled to have them.
I mean, Sam and Joey are their sons! If you don't like or trust the coach, there is no way any parent who loves their high-achieving kids will let those kids be part of a bad situation. My daughter played D3 ball; if I didn't like her coach and I was sure my reasons were justified, there is 0.00% chance I would have let her play for that coach.
Not only did Sam stay, but Joey joined him, all after Wojo had been on the job for several years. That's a funny way as a parent to show dissatisfaction with -- or even concern about -- the coach.
As for Wally ...
The whole idea of bringing him in expressly because it was the only way to get Henry always seemed a little crappy to me. But unless the Ellensons were stupid, they had to know that's what it was about. And in the end they did about as much using as being used.
And again, the teeth-gnashing that Wojo's treatment of Wally would kill Wojo's ability to recruit ended up being at best wildly overstating things and at worst total BS.
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Referring to the parents, I wouldn't think The Woj is getting an invite for a Stevens Point Christmas dinner this year
Another hysterically stupid set of words.
You're in a bad place. Find a couch.
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Golden
Are you up to speed with how the Hauser's feel about Wojo? Please share the good news that you obviously have to the rest of us. Rather than bashing a poster, why not add evidence proving him incorrect. Who knows, he might just be right.
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Golden
Are you up to speed with how the Hauser's feel about Wojo? Please share the good news that you obviously have to the rest of us. Rather than bashing a poster, why not add evidence proving him incorrect. Who knows, he might just be right.
Goose
Sorry to interrupt your conversation, but it was Crash who made the claim -- offering zero evidence -- that the Hausers don't like Wojo.
In a court of law, it would be incumbent upon the accuser to provide the evidence.
I like Crash. We have met and have had some good conversations, both on the site and via PMs. He put the "Hausers don't like Wojo" thing out there. It's not up to me, Golden, you or anybody else to prove that the Hausers DO like Wojo (or at least don't dislike him).
Again, the Hausers had a ton of time to decide if Wojo was the right coach for Joey, and a zillion options if they decided otherwise. I'm guessing every single school in the country would have found room for Sam and Joey after Sam's freshman season.
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Referring to the parents, I wouldn't think The Woj is getting an invite for a Stevens Point Christmas dinner this year
Is it because he demanded they keep making Hausers to send to Marquette?
I guess I am a little confused what the beef would be outside of "they have to play with Markus" or something.
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Golden
Are you up to speed with how the Hauser's feel about Wojo? Please share the good news that you obviously have to the rest of us. Rather than bashing a poster, why not add evidence proving him incorrect. Who knows, he might just be right.
The idea that anyone on Scoop knows how the Hausers feel about Wojo is beyond asinine.
Self-important, wannabe message insiders are a scourge.
We laugh - correctly - at the VaTech goofs tracking flights to Gary, but somehow take seriously people who think they know the inner thoughts of the Hauser family or private conversations between Shaka Smart and his wife.
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Pakuni
You might be right, but Golden strongly stated Jon was wrong. If he know that as a fact, then share something to prove his point.
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When Allie was a boy, Al beat Allie bloody every day. During one especially horrific 3-week stretch, Al locked up Allie in the basement, giving him only a scrap of bread and 3 ounces of water every day. During that stretch, the only time Allie got to leave the basement was to receive his daily beating.
There. It needed to be said, and I said it. As the accuser, there is absolutely no burden of proof on me.
It is up to those who think Al really did not do that to Allie to prove what I said was untrue.
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82
I think that the Hauser's may have a gripe with Wojo is a far cry from your analogy. Crash seems quite confident in his posting and it might not be far fetched as one may believe. I am seriously interested if Golden can provide insight to prove Crash as being wrong. My guess, Golden has little to add to the discussion.
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82
I think that the Hauser's may have a gripe with Wojo is a far cry from your analogy. Crash seems quite confident in his posting and it might not be far fetched as one may believe. I am seriously interested if Golden can provide insight to prove Crash as being wrong. My guess, Golden has little to add to the discussion.
And I am seriously interested if Crash has anything to demonstrate that he is right.
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Pakuni
You might be right, but Golden strongly stated Jon was wrong. If he know that as a fact, then share something to prove his point.
And Jon strongly stated that he knows what the Hauser family thinks. Why are you not demanding he provide evidence to prove his point?
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StillaWarrior
Fair post. That is up to him to share.
Pakuni
Maybe he has shared that evidence with me.
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Pakuni
Maybe he has shared that evidence with me.
And maybe he didn't?
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82
I think that the Hauser's may have a gripe with Wojo is a far cry from your analogy. Crash seems quite confident in his posting and it might not be far fetched as one may believe. I am seriously interested if Golden can provide insight to prove Crash as being wrong. My guess, Golden has little to add to the discussion.
Karma, aina? Wuzant it dat sum folks didant want Herro recruited 'cuz he wouldant share da rock, hey?
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82
I think that the Hauser's may have a gripe with Wojo is a far cry from your analogy. Crash seems quite confident in his posting and it might not be far fetched as one may believe. I am seriously interested if Golden can provide insight to prove Crash as being wrong. My guess, Golden has little to add to the discussion.
And again, Goose, I am not saying any of this stuff is "far fetched." I am merely saying that when somebody fires out an accusation in a public forum, the burden of proof is on the accuser.
Karma, aina? Wuzant it dat sum folks didant want Herro recruited 'cuz he wouldant share da rock, hey?
gibberish
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And again, Goose, I am not saying any of this stuff is "far fetched." I am merely saying that when somebody fires out an accusation in a public forum, the burden of proof is on the accuser.
Not if you're a part of the old-guard underboard, apparently
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Not if you're a part of the old-guard underboard, apparently
I, for one, am always overboard.
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Not if you're a part of the old-guard underboard, apparently
See, that was unnecessary, jes. Goose and I are having a discussion, and Crash is invited (as are any others) if he wants to take part.
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See, that was unnecessary, jes. Goose and I are having a discussion, and Crash is invited (as are any others) if he wants to take part.
Fair enough. But they're clearly protecting their friends/preferred posters.
Which is fine. People do that. But just be transparent about why different people to different standards.
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Not if you're a part of the old-guard underboard, apparently
Don't be dragging the Underboard into this.
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Jesmu
I think that you and others have made your feelings on the old guard perfectly clear.
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Is Underboard the interwebs superhero who rescues Sweet Polly Purebred from Simon Bar Sinister and Riff Raff?
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Don't be dragging the Underboard into this.
Haha
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Jesmu
I think that you and others have made your feelings on the old guard perfectly clear.
Goose
I'm more than happy to be part of the MU family with all - underboard or ortherwise. Some of just have differences because of our personal history. And that's okay.
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Don't forget that Newbill's name came up in the FBI investigation.
I'm not saying that Buzz didn't do him dirty--it seems he did--but there may be more to that story.
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For the Wojo fanboys out there, a friendly reminder that both of the following can be true:
1) Wojo is a good coach with loads of potential. He shouldn't be fired.
2) Wojo betrayed Wally.
Resist tribalism, currently manifesting as a perceived need to defend Wojo along every dimension.
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Don't forget that Newbill's name came up in the FBI investigation.
I'm not saying that Buzz didn't do him dirty--it seems he did--but there may be more to that story.
Perhaps Buzz is the reason Newbill's name is in the FBI report?
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For the Wojo fanboys out there, a friendly reminder that both of the following can be true:
1) Wojo is a good coach with loads of potential. He shouldn't be fired.
2) Wojo betrayed Wally.
Resist tribalism, currently manifesting as a perceived need to defend Wojo along every dimension.
It's also possible to look at the facts and determine that while getting cut from the team sucks, it's not a betrayal. I can also see that while most coaches would say pack your bags, ours found a way to give Wally options that allowed him to either stay at Marquette with a full ride or grad transfer to another school to continue playing basketball.
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And again, Goose, I am not saying any of this stuff is "far fetched." I am merely saying that when somebody fires out an accusation in a public forum, the burden of proof is on the accuser.
gibberish
Mike
As a journalist you can appreciate the imperative of protecting sources.
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82
I think that the Hauser's may have a gripe with Wojo is a far cry from your analogy. Crash seems quite confident in his posting and it might not be far fetched as one may believe. I am seriously interested if Golden can provide insight to prove Crash as being wrong. My guess, Golden has little to add to the discussion.
They look like they hate each other
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwCtjUuhw-V/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1imm099tye3td (https://www.instagram.com/p/BwCtjUuhw-V/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1imm099tye3td)
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Jake
I missed seeing Mr. and Mrs Hauser in your post. Maybe you missed the point of earlier discussion.
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Don't forget that Newbill's name came up in the FBI investigation.
I'm not saying that Buzz didn't do him dirty--it seems he did--but there may be more to that story.
It's from an alleged 2015 $2000 payment from an agency, ASM (isn't that the name of the agency in Ballers?). Newbill graduated in 2015.
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I do see Markus in that video.
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Mike
As a journalist you can appreciate the imperative of protecting sources.
As a journalist, I very, very rarely used unnamed sources, and I did so only when absolutely necessary. Personally, I'm not sure this subject meets that test.
But you believe it does meet that test, and it's certainly your prerogative to use second-hand info as a "source." Just gotta expect a little push-back when you do, my friend.
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Jake
I missed seeing Mr. and Mrs Hauser in your post. Maybe you missed the point of earlier discussion.
I figured we could use a little good natured fun compared to the normal wild conjecture on the board. Besides, my sources say Mrs Hauser brought orange slices and Capri Sun after the chain pull competition.
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Don't be dragging the Underboard into this.
There are Underboards and then there are Underpants. Personally, I think membership in the Schroeder 10 Underboard is the tits. A'ina, hey, Chili brudda?
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Vander and Henry were 5 stars.
Both in state...you know you have arrived as a program and/or Coach, when you can pull in a 5 star or two from out of state.
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Markus was a 5 star. He dropped to a 4 star when he reclassified but he was a 5 star in his own class.
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The coaching staff is the one party that held his application. They got a chance to get Jerel and had to screw someone over, it was Newbill.
Don't forget how they ran Roseboro at the end of the summer either. What they saw in him initially I'll never know but don't bring him in for the summer than run him so he'd have to sit out as a transfer. At least Newbill could go elsewhere and play immediately
Roseboro was NOT run...He realized very quickly he was in over his head and WILLINGLY chose to leave. No one pushed him
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Both in state...you know you have arrived as a program and/or Coach, when you can pull in a 5 star or two from out of state.
I've always thought this was somewhat of weird logic for private schools. I could see it for state schools but for MU it'd be about distance and Henry lived so far away from MU that getting a five star from chicago would've been more of a "staying home" situation for a player.
That being said I truly hope we can get some of those top MKE recruits coming up
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Give me one the five stars locally at the moment and I will say Wojo has arrived!!
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Both in state...you know you have arrived as a program and/or Coach, when you can pull in a 5 star or two from out of state.
Silliness.
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Give me one the five stars locally at the moment and I will say Wojo has arrived!!
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l1IY2vjmuLs074jRe/giphy.gif)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohfFfumCHWHXVjIoE/giphy.gif)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/26n619beHuk983YEo/giphy.gif)
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Both in state...you know you have arrived as a program and/or Coach, when you can pull in a 5 star or two from out of state.
For many years Coach Izzo would only recruit in a 250 mile radius from East Lansing. He said unless there was some preexisting relationship with the recruit and MSU, such as a oarenr attending the school, it was not worth the effort.
I think if Wojo can consistently recruit a smilar radius from Milwaukee and then add in markets where the program has developed relationships then he can continue to be successful in the recruiting trail.
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Laughable considering Twitter would prove this wrong prior to Wojo's departure.
Yup.
They dislike Wojo so much that after Sam playing for him for two years, their younger son decided to join him at Marquette!
Hysterical.