MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Cheeks on March 26, 2019, 10:20:11 PM

Title: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 26, 2019, 10:20:11 PM
Yup, for memory lane and it's fun to see some of the same folks that wanted Buzz fired now want Wojo fired.   I was accused of being one of these people, too bad I never said it and never wanted it, search Scoop is our friend.

Memory lane

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=13376.0
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: muguru on March 26, 2019, 10:37:00 PM
Yup, for memory lane and it's fun to see some of the same folks that wanted Buzz fired now want Wojo fired.   I was accused of being one of these people, too bad I never said it and never wanted it, search Scoop is our friend.

Memory lane

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=13376.0

You are a piece of work.. never wanted him fired yet all you do is take shot after shot after shot after shot at him now Chico's. You have even said you're glad he's gone. You are such a hypocrite..
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on March 26, 2019, 11:42:53 PM
Still waiting for all the dirt you got to be revealed too...
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 27, 2019, 03:07:28 AM
Interestingly our season this year mirrored that 09 season pretty well in terms of record, when we started choking, and disappointment
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: #UnleashSean on March 27, 2019, 04:19:18 AM
A lot of those arguments parallel wojo. To bad its wojos 5th year instead of 1st and he didnt just lose his pg. He just never had one
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: 🏀 on March 27, 2019, 05:22:34 AM
Posters were of much higher quality back then.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 27, 2019, 05:27:22 AM
A lot of those arguments parallel wojo. To bad its wojos 5th year instead of 1st and he didnt just lose his pg. He just never had one

So did the season

Peak at 23-4? Check

Lose last four of the regular season? Check

Win a game in the BET before losing again? Check

First weekend exit in the tournament? Check




Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: avid1010 on March 27, 2019, 07:07:09 AM
Still waiting for all the dirt you got to be revealed too...
Ask Herm...they run in the same circles...
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: tower912 on March 27, 2019, 07:22:30 AM
Cheeks, you bumped this thread for the second time?  OK.
Skianth is consistently unhappy.
I still miss BMA.   Damn you ners.
10 years and there are still a bunch of drive by fans who only come here after losses to vent.  And prove the adage about it being  better to remain silent and be thought a fool than opening  your mouth and removing all doubt.

Fans aren't rational after losses.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on March 27, 2019, 07:30:00 AM
Cheeks, you bumped this thread for the second time?  OK.
Skianth is consistently unhappy.
I still miss BMA.   Damn you ners.
10 years and there are still a bunch of drive by fans who only come here after losses to vent.  And prove the adage about it being  better to remain silent and be thought a fool than opening  your mouth and removing all doubt.

Fans aren't rational after losses.

+1

(https://vetstreet-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com/dc/f7/90213d94496da2952374eadf44f6/dog-at-fire-hydrant-thinkstock-78035070-335sm71213.jpg)
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: muguru on March 27, 2019, 07:30:06 AM
Cheeks, you bumped this thread for the second time?  OK.
Skianth is consistently unhappy.
I still miss BMA.   Damn you ners.
10 years and there are still a bunch of drive by fans who only come here after losses to vent.  And prove the adage about it being  better to remain silent and be thought a fool than opening  your mouth and removing all doubt.

Fans aren't rational after losses
.

Easiest way to solve this?? Lose as little as possible. Novel concept, I know.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: tower912 on March 27, 2019, 07:40:38 AM
Or grow up.   Novel concept, I know.   

Look, some team (for the sake of argument, UNC) is going to lose the championship game.   And their fan base is going to lose its collective minds about how bad their coach is, all his failings, blah blah blahbity blahbity blah.   If there was an endless pool of great coaches out there, everyone would have one.     Assuming the next coach is going to be better is like the guy afraid of commitment who is always convinced the next woman is going to be better, never recognizing that the problem might be him. 
  None of these blue bloods were created overnight.    And none of them were created by running a coach quickly.     OK, maybe UNC, but they were already a dynasty and ol' Roy was inevitable.      I don't know if Wojo is the answer.    I do know this.   If MU gets the reputation as a school that runs their coach at the first sign of unhappiness, the line of retread coaches fired from their old jobs or assistants looking for their first jobs who want to be the head coach at MU is not going to get longer.   
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: jesmu84 on March 27, 2019, 08:20:08 AM
Or grow up.   Novel concept, I know.   

Look, some team (for the sake of argument, UNC) is going to lose the championship game.   And their fan base is going to lose its collective minds about how bad their coach is, all his failings, blah blah blahbity blahbity blah.   If there was an endless pool of great coaches out there, everyone would have one.     Assuming the next coach is going to be better is like the guy afraid of commitment who is always convinced the next woman is going to be better, never recognizing that the problem might be him. 
  None of these blue bloods were created overnight.    And none of them were created by running a coach quickly.     OK, maybe UNC, but they were already a dynasty and ol' Roy was inevitable.      I don't know if Wojo is the answer.    I do know this.   If MU gets the reputation as a school that runs their coach at the first sign of unhappiness, the line of retread coaches fired from their old jobs or assistants looking for their first jobs who want to be the head coach at MU is not going to get longer.

Tower, come on. If you were half the fan that guru is, you'd realize how BS your whole post is.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Pakuni on March 27, 2019, 08:32:36 AM
A lot of those arguments parallel wojo. To bad its wojos 5th year instead of 1st and he didnt just lose his pg. He just never had one

Do you really want to compare the rosters each inherited in year one?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: tower912 on March 27, 2019, 08:43:48 AM
Tower, come on. If you were half the fan that guru is, you'd realize how BS your whole post is.
I will have to live with my inadequacies.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: #UnleashSean on March 27, 2019, 08:48:34 AM
Do you really want to compare the rosters each inherited in year one?

From wojo's 5th year and Buzz's 1st. Sure. But the statement was more based on the arguments in the thread. The coaching error ones. The ones were still bitching about wojo in year 5. Buzz was far from an amazing coach in his 1st year. He learned though. Wojo continues to make the same mistakes.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: muguru on March 27, 2019, 08:50:10 AM
Tower, come on. If you were half the fan that guru is, you'd realize how BS your whole post is.

Hey, you're the one(of many many many), that's okay with where the program is right now..I for one am not. Let me ask it this way...If Wojo came here and started with all of his own guys from the get go, would you be okay with where the program is currently at??

I think way too many people are giving him a pass for his first year, and blaming Buzz for what he left behind. I realize it almost never happens, but A. MU did NOT have to release the recruits, and more importantly,B. Wojo could have done a quicker fix, had he chose to, at least for the first year or two.

If they do no better next year then this year with what everyone say will be a better team, will you continue to give him a pass?? What will the excuse be?? Someone was hurt, someone left so it wasn't the team you/we thought it was going to be?? 
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: MUBurrow on March 27, 2019, 08:57:16 AM
From wojo's 5th year and Buzz's 1st. Sure. But the statement was more based on the arguments in the thread. The coaching error ones. The ones were still bitching about wojo in year 5. Buzz was far from an amazing coach in his 1st year. He learned though. Wojo continues to make the same mistakes.

Disagree with the bolded, and I guess that's one of the major divides on the board right now, aina?

To pull in the "system" debate from one of the other threads, Buzz was better at selling his system, or at least in a way the fanbase could understand. Everyone could understand and get on board with paint touches and switchables.  We caught onto some key concepts of his philosophy, and it made it easier to cite to specific growth as a coach.

TAMU's post in that thread about the way Wojo's system mirrors a lot of elements of Duke's, though, was the first time i ever saw a good distillation of what we run. It doesn't mean that to the staff or team its less clear, but its much more difficult for even advanced fans to grasp. Even with that though, I don't think Wojo is just making the same mistakes over and over, or to the extent he is, its more a personnel issue for me. There's only so much you can do schematically with guys like MH, Rowsey, Heldt, Joey Hauser.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: MU82 on March 27, 2019, 09:08:29 AM
Cheeks, you bumped this thread for the second time?  OK.
Skianth is consistently unhappy.
I still miss BMA.   Damn you ners.
10 years and there are still a bunch of drive by fans who only come here after losses to vent.  And prove the adage about it being  better to remain silent and be thought a fool than opening  your mouth and removing all doubt.

Fans aren't rational after losses.

Having not seen the first bump (yet), I enjoyed this thread. I always get a kick out of seeing some people who claim to know so much being so wrong. Even some of the language was the same, including the always-popular, "I hope he proves me wrong, but ... " line.

And, tower ... some fans aren't even rational after wins! I mean Ners spent a good week calling Wojo an idiot for running the play that worked at Creighton!
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: 4everwarriors on March 27, 2019, 09:10:58 AM
Waitin' on T-Cube's Memorial Soccer Complex donation.

Crean sucks
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 27, 2019, 09:22:48 AM
You are a piece of work.. never wanted him fired yet all you do is take shot after shot after shot after shot at him now Chico's. You have even said you're glad he's gone. You are such a hypocrite..

I took plenty at him, yup....but never said to fire him ( not for his X’s and O’s, and I don’t recall even with the Crapstorm of bad press his program unfurled did I make such a statement....maybe someone can find one). In fact, went out of my way multiple times to say don’t fire him.  That’s the difference.   Yes, glad he’s gone and there were plenty in the administration that felt and still feel that way. 
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: skianth16 on March 27, 2019, 09:27:39 AM
Cheeks, you bumped this thread for the second time?  OK.
Skianth is consistently unhappy.
I still miss BMA.   Damn you ners.
10 years and there are still a bunch of drive by fans who only come here after losses to vent.  And prove the adage about it being  better to remain silent and be thought a fool than opening  your mouth and removing all doubt.

Fans aren't rational after losses.

That is very unfair. I get super excited when the walk ons play. And when the Badgers lose.

In reality, I vent here when we lose. And I talk about final fours when we're winning. At the end of the day, this is a just message board. It's not real life. When it comes to real life, keeping a level head is important. When it comes to words you type on the internet, in a forum with very narrow appeal, there is no consequence to being an emotional rollercoaster. My deepest apologies if my internet emotions are not consistent and rational enough for your liking.

What I find to actually be a bit concerning is people who spend enough time here to re-hash posts from 10 years ago. How obsessed do you have to be to remember this stuff and bring it back up?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 27, 2019, 09:34:37 AM
A lot of those arguments parallel wojo. To bad its wojos 5th year instead of 1st and he didnt just lose his pg. He just never had one

Uhm yeah, year one roster for Buzz inherited to year one roster Buzz left Wojo..........................
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 27, 2019, 09:36:12 AM
That is very unfair. I get super excited when the walk ons play. And when the Badgers lose.

In reality, I vent here when we lose. And I talk about final fours when we're winning. At the end of the day, this is a just message board. It's not real life. When it comes to real life, keeping a level head is important. When it comes to words you type on the internet, in a forum with very narrow appeal, there is no consequence to being an emotional rollercoaster. My deepest apologies if my internet emotions are not consistent and rational enough for your liking.

What I find to actually be a bit concerning is people who spend enough time here to re-hash posts from 10 years ago. How obsessed do you have to be to remember this stuff and bring it back up?

The search takes about three seconds, copy and pasting another 10.  Someone said I wanted Buzz fired, that was flat out wrong and I provided the evidence of it.  Simple as that.

And if it helps to show the reflex craziness of Scoop, which 8ncludes some of my goofy proclamations, then probably a healthy thing. 

Looking forward to development this Summer by the team and coaches, a successful year in 19-20.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: #UnleashSean on March 27, 2019, 10:48:28 AM
Uhm yeah, year one roster for Buzz inherited to year one roster Buzz left Wojo..........................

Since there are those with a Marquette education that apparently cannot read context, I highlighted the important areas for you.

A lot of those arguments parallel wojo. To bad its wojos 5th year instead of 1st and he didnt just lose his pg. He just never had one
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on March 27, 2019, 11:00:19 AM
Cheeks, you're obsessed with obsessing about former coaches.  It truly amazes me how much time you spend discussing former coaches at Marquette.  At least you started a thread for this one, as about 95% of the other threads get derailed into this BS.   
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: muguru on March 27, 2019, 11:42:29 AM
I took plenty at him, yup....but never said to fire him ( not for his X’s and O’s, and I don’t recall even with the Crapstorm of bad press his program unfurled did I make such a statement....maybe someone can find one). In fact, went out of my way multiple times to say don’t fire him.  That’s the difference.   Yes, glad he’s gone and there were plenty in the administration that felt and still feel that way.

You constantly harp on the "bad publicity". In a very localized small area(ie the MU community) they got bad publicity, but you make it sound so bad, that there was bad publicity nationally. Not even close...no one outside of the general area knew, or even cared. It's not like National radio shows were talking about it, it's not like people in Tennessee or Texas knew about it, or much less cared. I mean the only reason people even remember it now, is because you keep bringing it up..It was a blip on the radar in the grand scheme of things...I mean the University got worse publicity for firing McAdams for essentially nothing...and that was even talked about nationally at times..The whole Buzz/rape ALLEGATION thing...not even close.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 27, 2019, 12:14:51 PM
Since there are those with a Marquette education that apparently cannot read context, I highlighted the important areas for you.

Guilty as charged.  My apologies.

Now, Buzz’s first year gifted roster with four players that would go on to play in the NBA, three of them inherited from the previous coach vs Wojo’s roster this year, yet we had people wanting to fire the coach then, too.

Thus the point.

Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 27, 2019, 12:17:14 PM
Cheeks, you're obsessed with obsessing about former coaches.  It truly amazes me how much time you spend discussing former coaches at Marquette.  At least you started a thread for this one, as about 95% of the other threads get derailed into this BS.

I am often responding to a post that is talking about a former coach.  The simple approach would be to stop bringing up the former coach and then people won’t respond about the former coaches.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 27, 2019, 12:22:22 PM
You constantly harp on the "bad publicity". In a very localized small area(ie the MU community) they got bad publicity, but you make it sound so bad, that there was bad publicity nationally. Not even close...no one outside of the general area knew, or even cared. It's not like National radio shows were talking about it, it's not like people in Tennessee or Texas knew about it, or much less cared. I mean the only reason people even remember it now, is because you keep bringing it up..It was a blip on the radar in the grand scheme of things...I mean the University got worse publicity for firing McAdams for essentially nothing...and that was even talked about nationally at times..The whole Buzz/rape ALLEGATION thing...not even close.

False.  ESPN carried the story as did others. 

Secondly, what happens in the local community where the university is...matters.  It also matters when the third largest city in the nation has it splashed on the front pages of the paper multiple times.  This wasn’t something that was just contained to a small town like Blacksburg, VA, Bloomington, IN or Waco, TX.   This happened in a major US city...Milwaukee...and got plenty of coverage in Chicago and was not without mention nationally on some sports outlets.


Again, you are not an alum, your opinion on how this affected alumni I don’t care about because you aren’t one. You have no skin in the game.  I get that many alums don’t care either, and some alums want us to flat out cheat and just win baby...but many alums did care, as did the administration.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: TallTitan34 on March 27, 2019, 12:31:36 PM
It was the headline on the front page of the Chicago Tribune.  It was no small story.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: muguru on March 27, 2019, 12:46:10 PM
It was the headline on the front page of the Chicago Tribune.  It was no small story.

Right, I said it was a big deal perhaps locally(ie MU's "base"). But it's not like this thing was national news and people in Texas, California, Tennessee, from one coast to the other and all points in between knew about it...nowhere close...and even if some random person/people heard some short "story" about it...you know what their reaction would have been?? Probably first was "Where is Marquette University"?? 2nd..They would have shrugged their shoulders...they had no dog in the hunt. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but that's what most people do if it doesn't involve someone they know...they may say "oh that's horrible", and then they move on with their day and their lives.



The OJ Simpson/ Aaron Hernandez stories...now THOSE were national news stories.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Its DJOver on March 27, 2019, 01:31:37 PM
It's no Chicago Tribune, and it's certainly not as bad as an (alleged) rape or sexual assault, but it's still not a good look, and the timing isn't exactly ideal either.

https://www.dailypress.com/sports/dp-spt-hokies-ty-outlaw-marijuana-032819-story.html

https://www.richmond.com/sports/college/schools/virginia-tech/virginia-tech-basketball-player-ty-outlaw-charged-with-marijuana-possession/article_621dce2a-1438-5b7e-a235-7c1ffca1ec95.html

https://www.roanoke.com/hokies/sports/mensbasketball/ty-outlaw-of-virginia-tech-charged-with-marijuana-possession/article_34beb1c5-d283-56da-9eb9-839ee2ce0f29.html
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Spotcheck Billy on March 27, 2019, 01:38:30 PM
It's no Chicago Tribune, and it's certainly not as bad as an (alleged) rape or sexual assault, but it's still not a good look, and the timing isn't exactly ideal either.

https://www.dailypress.com/sports/dp-spt-hokies-ty-outlaw-marijuana-032819-story.html

https://www.richmond.com/sports/college/schools/virginia-tech/virginia-tech-basketball-player-ty-outlaw-charged-with-marijuana-possession/article_621dce2a-1438-5b7e-a235-7c1ffca1ec95.html

https://www.roanoke.com/hokies/sports/mensbasketball/ty-outlaw-of-virginia-tech-charged-with-marijuana-possession/article_34beb1c5-d283-56da-9eb9-839ee2ce0f29.html


Hmm, I wonder if VT will suspend him from the next game?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 27, 2019, 03:15:52 PM
Where the Amazing Craptastical Thread?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Jockey on March 27, 2019, 03:19:19 PM
The obsession continues.

Is there a reason any of us should care about the guy?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Its DJOver on March 27, 2019, 03:26:09 PM
The obsession continues.

Is there a reason any of us should care about the guy?

An obsession about Ty Outlaw?  I would have posted the articles about any starter for a S16 team getting charged with possession of drugs before their first tournament game.  If Zion, Cassius, or Tremont had done this, would we not all be talking about it?  Yea I took a shot at Buzz, but posting about a college basketball student athlete (even one for another school) is hardly out of left field.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: MUDPT on March 27, 2019, 03:31:57 PM
I do like that the original thread was blaming the HC, after our all time leading scorer:
1. Drove to the basket and tried to lay it in with 11 seconds left in the shot clock and 15 in the game.
2. Got caught ball watching and let his guy go backdoor for a lay up to lose the game.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Pakuni on March 27, 2019, 04:26:37 PM
It's no Chicago Tribune, and it's certainly not as bad as an (alleged) rape or sexual assault, but it's still not a good look, and the timing isn't exactly ideal either.

https://www.dailypress.com/sports/dp-spt-hokies-ty-outlaw-marijuana-032819-story.html

https://www.richmond.com/sports/college/schools/virginia-tech/virginia-tech-basketball-player-ty-outlaw-charged-with-marijuana-possession/article_621dce2a-1438-5b7e-a235-7c1ffca1ec95.html

https://www.roanoke.com/hokies/sports/mensbasketball/ty-outlaw-of-virginia-tech-charged-with-marijuana-possession/article_34beb1c5-d283-56da-9eb9-839ee2ce0f29.html

Meh.
Outlaw obviously is an idiot here, but I don't think this reflects poorly on Buzz. This could have happened anywhere.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Its DJOver on March 27, 2019, 04:40:30 PM
Meh.
Outlaw obviously is an idiot here, but I don't think this reflects poorly on Buzz. This could have happened anywhere.

It was mostly a commentary on the hilarious timing of it all.  The Buzz hype train should be pulling out of Blacksburg heading for College Station right about now, and yet all the top articles about VT are about Outlaw, and the whole situation.  Agree that it doesn't really reflect too poorly on Buzz and it won't stop the Buzz hype train, but it won't be fueling it like any VT articles would be had this not happened. 
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Lennys Tap on March 27, 2019, 04:45:35 PM
I took plenty at him, yup....but never said to fire him ( not for his X’s and O’s, and I don’t recall even with the Crapstorm of bad press his program unfurled did I make such a statement....maybe someone can find one). In fact, went out of my way multiple times to say don’t fire him.  That’s the difference.   Yes, glad he’s gone and there were plenty in the administration that felt and still feel that way.

God are you full of it. You "never said fire him" but were attacking him and his players (personal, ugly stuff that no fan would ever do) from the get go. And this was long before a recruit got a ride home and a t-shirt or anyone was accused (accused, remember, not arrested, indicted or convicted. you claim it makes a difference - unless you play for Buzz Williams) of sexual assault.

You didn't want him fired but attacked him constantly. Hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: muguru on March 27, 2019, 04:55:47 PM
God are you full of it. You "never said fire him" but were attacking him and his players (personal, ugly stuff that no fan would ever do) from the get go. And this was long before a recruit got a ride home and a t-shirt or anyone was accused (accused, remember, not arrested, indicted or convicted. you claim it makes a difference - unless you play for Buzz Williams) of sexual assault.

You didn't want him fired but attacked him constantly. Hypocrisy.

Lenny you just won the internet..well done my friend, well done.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 27, 2019, 05:39:15 PM
Right, I said it was a big deal perhaps locally(ie MU's "base"). But it's not like this thing was national news and people in Texas, California, Tennessee, from one coast to the other and all points in between knew about it...nowhere close...and even if some random person/people heard some short "story" about it...you know what their reaction would have been?? Probably first was "Where is Marquette University"?? 2nd..They would have shrugged their shoulders...they had no dog in the hunt. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but that's what most people do if it doesn't involve someone they know...they may say "oh that's horrible", and then they move on with their day and their lives.



The OJ Simpson/ Aaron Hernandez stories...now THOSE were national news stories.

You are not an alum.  If you were, you would know how critical being in the Chicago Tribune in that prominent location was.  A huge number of our students come from Chicagoland, as well as alumni that reside there.  Critical area for the school.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 27, 2019, 05:42:19 PM
God are you full of it. You "never said fire him" but were attacking him and his players (personal, ugly stuff that no fan would ever do) from the get go. And this was long before a recruit got a ride home and a t-shirt or anyone was accused (accused, remember, not arrested, indicted or convicted. you claim it makes a difference - unless you play for Buzz Williams) of sexual assault.

You didn't want him fired but attacked him constantly. Hypocrisy.

Oh that’s right, I’m not a Marquette fan....classic.  You may want to go back and do a search as your memory seems to be misaligned. 

In terms of hypocrisy, there are people here that attacking Wojo constantly but have said they don’t him fired....in your world I guess that isn’t possible.  Weird.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Lennys Tap on March 27, 2019, 06:33:19 PM
Oh that’s right, I’m not a Marquette fan....classic.  You may want to go back and do a search as your memory seems to be misaligned. 

In terms of hypocrisy, there are people here that attacking Wojo constantly but have said they don’t him fired....in your world I guess that isn’t possible.  Weird.

I haven't seen anyone here attack Wojo as viciously as you went after Buzz. That said, his most relentless critics on Scoop are pretty open about wanting him gone. I've seen what I would consider poor judgement from them. Hypocrisy? Not so much.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 27, 2019, 06:54:45 PM
I haven't seen anyone here attack Wojo as viciously as you went after Buzz. That said, his most relentless critics on Scoop are pretty open about wanting him gone. I've seen what I would consider poor judgement from them. Hypocrisy? Not so much.

Were you keeping track, did you have a notebook by the bed? 

Some of Wojo’s critics, some have not because they are smart enough to know how dumb it would be right now.

I also defended Buzz, but that never made your notebook apparently.  Very good coach, should have been COY as I said.....also a lot of other stuff.  Glad he is gone. 
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: connie on March 27, 2019, 07:16:15 PM
You are not an alum.  If you were, you would know how critical being in the Chicago Tribune in that prominent location was.  A huge number of our students come from Chicagoland, as well as alumni that reside there.  Critical area for the school.
I agree Chicago is fertile general student recruiting ground, but I have seen zero--ZERO--evidence that these stories and the allegations they contained had any influence on student recruitment.  I may have missed it though, and since you keep bringing this up I thought you would have the support for your claims handy.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 27, 2019, 07:32:12 PM
I agree Chicago is fertile general student recruiting ground, but I have seen zero--ZERO--evidence that these stories and the allegations they contained had any influence on student recruitment.  I may have missed it though, and since you keep bringing this up I thought you would have the support for your claims handy.

One of the reasons MU made some wholesale changes to Policing at MU was concerns of parents about their daughters attending MU.  Back in the late 90’s I saw on a cross department committee to come up with recommendations for the school to address those concerns.  Years later, in talking to my former colleagues that were still there, having sexual assault concerns splashed all over the media was a heavy concern for the school.  We will never know true impact as kids say no to schools for any number of reasons they do not disclose in specificity.  Several people lost their jobs over what happened, I think that more that illustrates the gravity of the issue.

More importantly, you can’t let a few coaches run the university whether it is Buzz Williams, Urban Meyer, Bob Knight or anyone else.  Those folks work FOR the university, not the other way around.  The administration has to take control and realign some priorities....thankfully.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: connie on March 27, 2019, 07:49:59 PM
I can agree with everything you said, but that doesn't answer the question.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: #UnleashSean on March 27, 2019, 09:16:01 PM
If buzz beats Duke, scoop better prepare for the category 5 crap storm
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: FartyEightHours on March 27, 2019, 09:34:07 PM
I didn’t follow it real hard but was a crime actually committed/someone prosecuted in the rape allegation “case”?  Don’t remember.  I think cottingham was also let go.  Those two guys were very good at their jobs imo.  Could have been lifers at mu.

Buzz is quirky which probably rubbed some of the elites wrong and he also likes working with the jucos.  I think he had to tighten ship some but not fired.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on March 27, 2019, 09:45:45 PM
Were you keeping track, did you have a notebook by the bed? 

Some of Wojo’s critics, some have not because they are smart enough to know how dumb it would be right now.

I also defended Buzz, but that never made your notebook apparently.  Very good coach, should have been COY as I said.....also a lot of other stuff.  Glad he is gone.

Where is the peeing dog Cracked Sidewalks blog post that was deleted for you?  Or the Cottingham was the worst hire in the history of ADs.? 

The Mother of All Egregious.  Guru's posts look like a wall flower in comparison.  No one argues that he is a true fan (just about his volume).  You on the other hand....
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 27, 2019, 10:14:11 PM
Where is the peeing dog Cracked Sidewalks blog post that was deleted for you?  Or the Cottingham was the worst hire in the history of ADs.? 

The Mother of All Egregious.  Guru's posts look like a wall flower in comparison.  No one argues that he is a true fan (just about his volume).  You on the other hand....

It wasn't deleted for me.  I modified it myself and explained why.   So you were wrong #1 in this post.

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2011/01/marquette-choking-dogs-pee-themselves.html
 

Here's where you are wrong #2....Nice blather on Cottingham about being the worst AD in history, also a statement I didn't make.  I got to work with Steve for several years.  Very nice man, smart guy.  Did I think he should have been the AD?  Nope.  Did I think we moved too fast to hire a guy that was going to be there at least a week if not longer if we waited.  Yup.  What was the rush?  Unfortunately he ended up being the fall guy for the actions of players from a certain team.

You're arguing if I am a true fan?  LOL.  Wrong #3...you hit the trifecta.  There may not a be bigger one here on the west coast for MU, but let me guess you get to decide who is a "true" fan.  It doesn't come from passion, donations, traveling to games around the country, promoting MU constantly, participating in high school interviews encouraging people to go to MU.....nope...all that is just a front for someone that doesn't care about the school or the university...yup., that must be it.


Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on March 27, 2019, 10:23:03 PM
It wasn't deleted for me.  I modified it myself and explained why.   So you were wrong #1 in this post.

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2011/01/marquette-choking-dogs-pee-themselves.html
 

Here's where you are wrong #2....Nice blather on Cottingham about being the worst AD in history, also a statement I didn't make.  I got to work with Steve for several years.  Very nice man, smart guy.  Did I think he should have been the AD?  Nope.  Did I think we moved too fast to hire a guy that was going to be there at least a week if not longer if we waited.  Yup.  What was the rush?  Unfortunately he ended up being the fall guy for the actions of players from a certain team.

You're arguing if I am a true fan?  LOL.  Wrong #3...you hit the trifecta.  There may not a be bigger one here on the west coast for MU, but let me guess you get to decide who is a "true" fan.  It doesn't come from passion, donations, traveling to games around the country, promoting MU constantly, participating in high school interviews encouraging people to go to MU.....nope...all that is just a front for someone that doesn't care about the school or the university...yup., that must be it.

Kansas ticket scandal, Bobby K choking incident, Lazar and ND Prep, Fox/ESPN "me too", will Greg K. endorse you?  Asking for a friend that's sick of you tearing down MU basketball.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 27, 2019, 10:29:59 PM
Kansas ticket scandal, Bobby K chocking incident, Lazar and ND Prep, Fox/ESPN "me too", will Greg K. endorse you?  Asking for a friend that's sick of you tearing down MU basketball.

I happen to love MU basketball and feel strongly about what it is and what it can become which is an amazing asset for the school, city, alumni.  Most importantly that it can be done in a positive, clean way without other issues. Do you agree?


Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on March 27, 2019, 10:37:41 PM
I happen to love MU basketball and feel strongly about what it is and what it can become which is an amazing asset for the school, city, alumni.  Most importantly that it can be done in a positive, clean way without other issues. Do you agree?

Cheeks-

I love you and you have been very personable and helpful to me and my family.  I value your contributions and never supported your bans. 

I love the joshing back and forth and you take them in good form.  That said, you need to know when to give it a rest.  You know and I know, the more successful you are the more critics you gain.

Just know when you rip Buzz, you are ripping many excellent and competent people who oversaw him.  Thus, give it a rest...and I will call you out on that for every 12 of your posts. I support them (MUAD) over you (or others).  You know it is a tough job.  I use hyperbole often that maybe 10% get...that said, those you live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.  There is always a message unsaid. 

Go Warriors!

B
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 27, 2019, 10:57:50 PM
Cheeks-

I love you and you have been very personable and helpful to me and my family.  I value your contributions and never supported your bans. 

I love the joshing back and forth and you take them in good form.  That said, you need to know when to give it a rest.  You know and I know, the more successful you are the more critics you gain.

Just know when you rip Buzz, you are ripping many excellent and competent people who oversaw him.  Thus, give it a rest...and I will call you on that every 12th post.i support them over you (or others) ads don't it is a tough job.  I use hyperbole often that maybe 10% get.

Go Warriors!

B

I don't believe I am ripping people that oversaw him, because he got bigger than them and couldn't be reigned in.   If anything, I'm advocating for those people.

They become somewhat powerless. It happened with his predecessor, too....which is why the angst among some people that had to put up with that family.  Yes, ADs and folks in the athletic department roles have a brutal job, especially at high profile departments where the coach makes more money than the AD and yields tremendous power.  Often can consolidate that power with a few donors against his/her own AD.  It's not cool, but it happens.  End of the day, even if you are a big shot coach making $3M a year, coworkers and colleagues expect to be treated well.

peace.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Uncle Rico on March 28, 2019, 05:35:37 AM
If buzz beats Duke, scoop better prepare for the category 5 crap storm

Why?  Buzz left Marquette.  I don’t understand the obsession with former coaches.  They moved on, we should, too.  Marquette took a chance on him and gave him an opportunity.  Kudos to him for his success here and at VPI.  He isn’t coming back and I’ll fondly recall his time here but I’m excited for Marquette’s future
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: shoothoops on March 28, 2019, 06:37:42 AM
Let’s live in the present and future. Let’s not live in the past. Take the good and move on. Buzz was a surprise hire that worked out very well for Marquette. He left. As was the case with previous head coaches that leave, indifference. MU hopes to have that Buzz kind of success moving forward with a different coach. 
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 28, 2019, 06:53:11 AM
Unpopular opinion but I think Buzz is overrated here. He had two great years, one of which anybody could've won with that team. He had 3/4 of a third great year with Crean's players before an injury.

2009- We were doing great but I feel like a better coach could've overcame a loss of James when you still have Jerel, Matthews and Hayward.

2010- Great coaching job.

2011- It's incredible to me that the sweet 16 overshadows how meh this season was.

2012- Great team but I think anybody could've coached this team to their record. Also they underperformed in March, the argument why? Because Florida was bad matchup and yet under wojo bad matchups are inexcusable.

2013- Great coaching year.

2014- Terrible coaching year and I've even seen posters associate this year as one of Wojo's faults. WTF

Buzz had a great run at MU truly but I think 2010 being a 6 seed and 2013 winning the BE were the only two masterful coaching performances.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 28, 2019, 06:58:15 AM
Unpopular opinion but I think Buzz is overrated here. He had two great years, one of which anybody could've won with that team. He had 3/4 of a third great year with Crean's players before an injury.

2009- We were doing great but I feel like a better coach could've overcame a loss of James when you still have Jerel, Matthews and Hayward.

2010- Great coaching job.

2011- It's incredible to me that the sweet 16 overshadows how meh this season was.

2012- Great team but I think anybody could've coached this team to their record. Also they underperformed in March, the argument why? Because Florida was bad matchup and yet under wojo bad matchups are inexcusable.

2013- Great coaching year.

2014- Terrible coaching year and I've even seen posters associate this year as one of Wojo's faults. WTF

Buzz had a great run at MU truly but I think 2010 being a 6 seed and 2013 winning the BE were the only two masterful coaching performances.

Galway - This is one aspect that you are evaluating.  Buzz did this AND got Jimmy, Jae, DJO, Vander, Jamil, Dwight to Marquette (think that is all that had some time in the NBA - even more if you include over-seas).  Need both.  I haven't counted, but if you normalize for years coached, it may be the highest concentration of pro ballers in the university since Al. 
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 28, 2019, 07:03:51 AM
Galway - This is one aspect that you are evaluating.  Buzz did this AND got Jimmy, Jae, DJO, Vander, Jamil, Dwight to Marquette (think that is all that had some time in the NBA - even more if you include over-seas).  Need both.  I haven't counted, but if you normalize for years coached, it may be the highest concentration of pro ballers in the university since Al.

True, but with all them we didn't actually have much to show for it. I'm not going to put in the work but I'd be curious to see how our success looks against teams that had as many future pros during the same stretch.

Think about it in 2010 we were a 6 seed with two future first rounders, a second rounder and UDFA Buycks. 2011 we were an 11 seed with a first rounder, 2 second rounders, and UDFA Buycks and Blue.

We had loads of guys get pro time but how does that concentration measure against other teams with four and five future pros on them?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 28, 2019, 07:10:19 AM
True, but with all them we didn't actually have much to show for it. I'm not going to put in the work but I'd be curious to see how our success looks against teams that had as many future pros during the same stretch.

Think about it in 2010 we were a 6 seed with two future first rounders, a second rounder and UDFA Buycks. 2011 we were an 11 seed with a first rounder, 2 second rounders, and UDFA Buycks and Blue.

We had loads of guys get pro time but how does that concentration measure against other teams with four and five future pros on them?

I'm not trying to rationalize 'coaching' -- you can feel free to pick it apart. 

A rookie coach went 2nd round, tourney, S16, S16, E8....those are the results

But you know, time and learning and all.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 28, 2019, 07:16:47 AM
I'm not trying to rationalize 'coaching' -- you can feel free to pick it apart. 

A rookie coach went 2nd round, tourney, S16, S16, E8....those are the results

But you know, time and learning and all.

He had a year at UNO so he wasn't a rookie. Also due to what he inherited then using Jucos never had to deal with the "young team" issue.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 28, 2019, 07:24:42 AM
He had a year at UNO so he wasn't a rookie. Also due to what he inherited then using Jucos never had to deal with the "young team" issue.

OK - one year at some low-major.  Not a rookie.  Also your latter point is a choice.  A coach chooses how to construct his team. 
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Lennys Tap on March 28, 2019, 08:19:14 AM
Where is the peeing dog Cracked Sidewalks blog post that was deleted for you?  Or the Cottingham was the worst hire in the history of ADs.? 

The Mother of All Egregious.  Guru's posts look like a wall flower in comparison.  No one argues that he is a true fan (just about his volume).  You on the other hand....

Amen, Doc. The "Choking dogs peeing down their legs" blog will always be Chico's "truth", his manifesto. In a difficult moment his true feelings came out and he spoke from the heart. He spoke without filter. Of course he regretted it later because he was exposed by his own words. He was anti Buzz from the jump and when it became clear (very early, to me and others) that Buzz was the real deal it meant that he was going to be exposed as wrong. He was a Marquette fan, sure, but a much bigger fan of himself. So for 6 years he minimized the team's accomplishments (great comebacks were the other teams choking, for example) and made huge deals out of minor internal problems that he ignored in past administrations (not talking about the sexual assault allegations - but a fight, a t-shirt, being in a club under 21, etc.). All because his need to be right, to be a big shot, to be an insider was greater than his love for Marquette. Sad.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on March 28, 2019, 08:39:43 AM
Lennys Tap, is the only reason you post here to correct the record about Cheeks?  Because you're really just as annoying as he is.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Lennys Tap on March 28, 2019, 09:43:15 AM
Lennys Tap, is the only reason you post here to correct the record about Cheeks?  Because you're really just as annoying as he is.

Fluffy Blue Monster,

1. No.

2. Sorry you feel that way. You're certainly entitled to your own opinion.



Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: MU82 on March 28, 2019, 10:09:27 AM
I am glad that Lenny is here to corral chicos' worst impulses and to remind the board about hypocrisy related to stuff like "choking dogs."

And I say this as a guy whose own worst impulses get corralled by Lenny every once in awhile.

Thankfully, I like to think I have far fewer worst impulses -- certainly, never called kids "choking dogs," nor do I like to argue just for the sake of arguing -- but then again we're all fans of ourselves around here.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: NickelDimer on March 28, 2019, 10:24:25 AM
Unpopular opinion but I think Buzz is overrated here. He had two great years, one of which anybody could've won with that team. He had 3/4 of a third great year with Crean's players before an injury.

2009- We were doing great but I feel like a better coach could've overcame a loss of James when you still have Jerel, Matthews and Hayward.

2010- Great coaching job.

2011- It's incredible to me that the sweet 16 overshadows how meh this season was.

2012- Great team but I think anybody could've coached this team to their record. Also they underperformed in March, the argument why? Because Florida was bad matchup and yet under wojo bad matchups are inexcusable.

2013- Great coaching year.

2014- Terrible coaching year and I've even seen posters associate this year as one of Wojo's faults. WTF

Buzz had a great run at MU truly but I think 2010 being a 6 seed and 2013 winning the BE were the only two masterful coaching performances.
^^dis is a bad take
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 28, 2019, 10:31:23 AM
I am glad that Lenny is here to corral chicos' worst impulses and to remind the board about hypocrisy related to stuff like "choking dogs."

And I say this as a guy whose own worst impulses get corralled by Lenny every once in awhile.

Thankfully, I like to think I have far fewer worst impulses -- certainly, never called kids "choking dogs," nor do I like to argue just for the sake of arguing -- but then again we're all fans of ourselves around here.

What hypocrisy?  I owned it then and own it now.  So how is that hypocritical?  I changed it, noted the change in the post which is still visible for all to see...I copied it last night here again. Not hiding from anything.  It wa not a good look.

Sort of like Erin Andrews article by you calling her out wasn’t a good look.  Sometimes we make mistakes and then we got to own them, right?  Did you own it? I owned mine.  I shouldn’t have written it, changed what I wrote and explained why I did.

If I didn’t own it, then you would be right to call me a hypocrite...but I did own it and have many times since.

Lenny keeps thinking this is about t-shirts and rides, always ignoring the lying part, etc, etc.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 28, 2019, 10:34:46 AM
^^dis is a bad take

What aspect of it? That a better coach would've gotten more out of 09? That  11 was an extremely meh season? That anybody could've won with the 12 team?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 28, 2019, 10:39:54 AM
^^dis is a bad take

Not really, not if the same standards are applied equally here, but they aren’t. 

Buzz had two amazing years of coaching, CoY worthy.  But when I read stuff here how Wojo should have gone a certain distance with this roster, or Crean with that roster, but Buzz fell short several times with the talent on his, but very little push back....it makes you wonder.

This just in, sports fans have favorites and agendas.  There were years Buzz, Crean, Wojo, etc, overachieved, and years we didn’t.  That’s an honest take that I don’t see too many here taking.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: The Lens on March 28, 2019, 10:50:49 AM
What hypocrisy?  I owned it then and own it now.  So how is that hypocritical?  I changed it, noted the change in the post which is still visible for all to see...I copied it last night here again. Not hiding from anything.  It wa not a good look.

Sort of like Erin Andrews article by you calling her out wasn’t a good look.  Sometimes we make mistakes and then we got to own them, right?  Did you own it? I owned mine.  I shouldn’t have written it, changed what I wrote and explained why I did.

If I didn’t own it, then you would be right to call me a hypocrite...but I did own it and have many times since.

Lenny keeps thinking this is about t-shirts and rides, always ignoring the lying part, etc, etc.

We didn't part ways when Buzz inappropriately handled sexual assault allegations
We didn't part ways when Buzz got us on the cover of the Chicago Tribune
We didn't part ways when Buzz's assistant committed an infraction
We didn't part ways when Buzz's subordinate lied

We parted ways when the winning stopped

Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Pakuni on March 28, 2019, 10:52:44 AM
We didn't part ways when Buzz inappropriately handled allegations
We didn't part ways when Buzz got us on the cover of the Trib
We didn't part ways when Buzz's committed an infraction
We didn't part ways when Buzz's subordinate lied

We parted ways when the winning stopped

We parted ways when Buzz chose to leave.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Pakuni on March 28, 2019, 10:58:05 AM
Unpopular opinion but I think Buzz is overrated here. He had two great years, one of which anybody could've won with that team. He had 3/4 of a third great year with Crean's players before an injury.

2009- We were doing great but I feel like a better coach could've overcame a loss of James when you still have Jerel, Matthews and Hayward.

2010- Great coaching job.

2011- It's incredible to me that the sweet 16 overshadows how meh this season was.

2012- Great team but I think anybody could've coached this team to their record. Also they underperformed in March, the argument why? Because Florida was bad matchup and yet under wojo bad matchups are inexcusable.

2013- Great coaching year.

2014- Terrible coaching year and I've even seen posters associate this year as one of Wojo's faults. WTF

Buzz had a great run at MU truly but I think 2010 being a 6 seed and 2013 winning the BE were the only two masterful coaching performances.

Buzz is overrated as a coach and underrated as a talent evaluator.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: wadesworld on March 28, 2019, 11:07:19 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/hokies-say-outlaw-to-play-vs-duke-after-marijuana-arrest/2019/03/28/94ca9bc4-5172-11e9-bdb7-44f948cc0605_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e5848ce09769
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Billy Hoyle on March 28, 2019, 11:09:04 AM
Amen, Doc. The "Choking dogs peeing down their legs" blog will always be Chico's "truth", his manifesto. In a difficult moment his true feelings came out and he spoke from the heart. He spoke without filter. Of course he regretted it later because he was exposed by his own words. He was anti Buzz from the jump and when it became clear (very early, to me and others) that Buzz was the real deal it meant that he was going to be exposed as wrong. He was a Marquette fan, sure, but a much bigger fan of himself. So for 6 years he minimized the team's accomplishments (great comebacks were the other teams choking, for example) and made huge deals out of minor internal problems that he ignored in past administrations (not talking about the sexual assault allegations - but a fight, a t-shirt, being in a club under 21, etc.). All because his need to be right, to be a big shot, to be an insider was greater than his love for Marquette. Sad.

Sorry, Lenny, but if it was just "a t-shirt" MU wouldn't have fired an assistant, suspended Buzz, felt obligated to hire a high priced firm to represent them in compliance matters (BSK) and had the NCAA visit campus.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Bocephys on March 28, 2019, 11:13:40 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/hokies-say-outlaw-to-play-vs-duke-after-marijuana-arrest/2019/03/28/94ca9bc4-5172-11e9-bdb7-44f948cc0605_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e5848ce09769

Squirmy
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: muguru on March 28, 2019, 11:16:45 AM
Sorry, Lenny, but if it was just "a t-shirt" MU wouldn't have fired an assistant, suspended Buzz, felt obligated to hire a high priced firm to represent them in compliance matters (BSK) and had the NCAA visit campus.

Yes...they would have..and they did. Larry Williams wanted to do everything he could to paint Buzz in a bad light.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: muguru on March 28, 2019, 11:24:43 AM
Unpopular opinion but I think Buzz is overrated here. He had two great years, one of which anybody could've won with that team. He had 3/4 of a third great year with Crean's players before an injury.

2009- We were doing great but I feel like a better coach could've overcame a loss of James when you still have Jerel, Matthews and Hayward.

2010- Great coaching job.

2011- It's incredible to me that the sweet 16 overshadows how meh this season was.

2012- Great team but I think anybody could've coached this team to their record. Also they underperformed in March, the argument why? Because Florida was bad matchup and yet under wojo bad matchups are inexcusable.

2013- Great coaching year.

2014- Terrible coaching year and I've even seen posters associate this year as one of Wojo's faults. WTF

Buzz had a great run at MU truly but I think 2010 being a 6 seed and 2013 winning the BE were the only two masterful coaching performances.

So let's see Galway, You think Buzz was overrated as a Coach, and yet Love Wojo...Okay, that's your choice, but..The above you posted, I could post EXACTLY the same about Wojo..What you say about 2012 for Buzz, is 100% applicable to Wojo this year..Great team, anybody could have Coached that team to the record they had, and I would argue even better, because a better Coach would NOT have had the 1-6 slide at the end the way Wojo did. And in fact, given the talent they had, I would say they underachieved, because of the late season slide. Prior to that, they were about where the talent dictated they should be.

Wojo also Coached a team with a future NBA lottery pick, and failed to make the tournament...a better Coach gets that team in the tournament.

I'm just saying, if you are going to say Buzz was overrated as a Coach...then how the hell can you love Wojo when he has accomplished a lot less to this point?? And as I said, your criticisms of Buzz as a Coach are also applicable to Wojo thus far..except for the Great Coaching season to this point. I hope he has one, I really do.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: MUBurrow on March 28, 2019, 11:31:02 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/hokies-say-outlaw-to-play-vs-duke-after-marijuana-arrest/2019/03/28/94ca9bc4-5172-11e9-bdb7-44f948cc0605_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e5848ce09769

I don't care about weed and I think that its stupid that we're still suspending and charging guys for something that is legal in half the country, so I'm glad he's playing. But that being said, what the hell difference does a drug test make vis-a-vis what he's charged with?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Billy Hoyle on March 28, 2019, 11:37:12 AM
Yes...they would have..and they did. Larry Williams wanted to do everything he could to paint Buzz in a bad light.

yeah, keep believing that. LOL.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: muguru on March 28, 2019, 11:38:50 AM
yeah, keep believing that. LOL.

I happen to know what went on with all of that, is that okay??
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 28, 2019, 11:55:18 AM
I don't care about weed and I think that its stupid that we're still suspending and charging guys for something that is legal in half the country, so I'm glad he's playing. But that being said, what the hell difference does a drug test make vis-a-vis what he's charged with?

This is Va Tech trying to say he took a 3rd party test and putting into question the original citation....deflection.  It's like "my client took a lie detector test" from a certified agency....worth nothing but some public opinion PR.  This outcome that he plays is absolutely not surprising at all, Buzz has nothing to lose before heading off to A&M where TAMU awaits.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Uncle Rico on March 28, 2019, 11:58:27 AM
So let's see Galway, You think Buzz was overrated as a Coach, and yet Love Wojo...Okay, that's your choice, but..The above you posted, I could post EXACTLY the same about Wojo..What you say about 2012 for Buzz, is 100% applicable to Wojo this year..Great team, anybody could have Coached that team to the record they had, and I would argue even better, because a better Coach would NOT have had the 1-6 slide at the end the way Wojo did. And in fact, given the talent they had, I would say they underachieved, because of the late season slide. Prior to that, they were about where the talent dictated they should be.

Wojo also Coached a team with a future NBA lottery pick, and failed to make the tournament...a better Coach gets that team in the tournament.

I'm just saying, if you are going to say Buzz was overrated as a Coach...then how the hell can you love Wojo when he has accomplished a lot less to this point?? And as I said, your criticisms of Buzz as a Coach are also applicable to Wojo thus far..except for the Great Coaching season to this point. I hope he has one, I really do.

I was glad Buzz left because the program was trending down.  He took a team coming off an Elite 8 and picked to win the league and missed the tournament.  That can’t happen at any elite program
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 28, 2019, 12:12:36 PM
So let's see Galway, You think Buzz was overrated as a Coach, and yet Love Wojo...Okay, that's your choice, but..The above you posted, I could post EXACTLY the same about Wojo..What you say about 2012 for Buzz, is 100% applicable to Wojo this year..Great team, anybody could have Coached that team to the record they had, and I would argue even better, because a better Coach would NOT have had the 1-6 slide at the end the way Wojo did. And in fact, given the talent they had, I would say they underachieved, because of the late season slide. Prior to that, they were about where the talent dictated they should be.

Wojo also Coached a team with a future NBA lottery pick, and failed to make the tournament...a better Coach gets that team in the tournament.

I'm just saying, if you are going to say Buzz was overrated as a Coach...then how the hell can you love Wojo when he has accomplished a lot less to this point?? And as I said, your criticisms of Buzz as a Coach are also applicable to Wojo thus far..except for the Great Coaching season to this point. I hope he has one, I really do.

First, I don't love Wojo. I believe I'm on the record about a week ago saying I'm off the Wojo train. I believe he should get to coach next year as he hasn't really had a full class come through his system (Sacar and Heldt are all that's left from Henry's class). But I'm far from in love with Wojo.

I'm not sure anyone could've coached this team, you would need a coach who truly embraces the three ball. I'm sure there's coaches who could've done better but not anyone could've done it. As opposed to 2012 where we had a super efficient centre, a banger of a PF that could hit from outside, a super fast shooting guard that could slash to the rim and hit from outside, a great defending guard good for a decent few point, a good long backup PF(C when Gardner was injured), and a good backup SG as much of a head case as he was. That team was much more complete in my opinion and would've won no matter the coaching philosophy.

Who was the NBA lottery pick? I'm assuming you mean Henry but he was not a lottery pick.

As far as the Henry team goes I agree it was a missed opportunity, could a better coach gotten us there? Maybe, I believe we were that Depaul fantom foul away from being in the Tournament, maybe Belmont as well so yeah maybe they might've made it.

I'm not on here to defend wojo though, I'm merely pointing out that yours and others memories of Buzz are a bit too rosey.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: brewcity77 on March 28, 2019, 12:45:27 PM
As far as the Henry team goes I agree it was a missed opportunity, could a better coach gotten us there? Maybe, I believe we were that Depaul fantom foul away from being in the Tournament, maybe Belmont as well so yeah maybe they might've made it.

The Henry team was a win or two away from being a tourney team? They weren't even in the NIT. 3 more wins and they would've been on the bubble, needed at least 4 to be assured a bid.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 28, 2019, 12:54:59 PM
The Henry team was a win or two away from being a tourney team? They weren't even in the NIT. 3 more wins and they would've been on the bubble, needed at least 4 to be assured a bid.

I sort of view them like SJU this year, where if we'd gotten to 500 in BE play,  that the crap schedule wouldn't have mattered anymore.

I have no bracketology proving this and I know creighton was .500 but it's just my blind opinion that the committee isn't leaving out a 21 or 22 win .500 BE team. But I've been wrong before, I was convinced that the 2018 team had done enough to be in the tournament so what do I know
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: MU82 on March 28, 2019, 01:01:39 PM
Sort of like Erin Andrews article by you calling her out wasn’t a good look.

This has become an interesting pattern for you, chicos.

Whenever you are desperately struggling to keep pace with me during one of our debates, you bring up Erin Andrews out of the blue, even though my 2008 column about her has nothing to do with whatever topic we are discussing.

It is the goalpost shifting of all goalpost shifting by an expert goalpost shifter and poor debater.

It is a pathetic attempt to gain the upper hand when you are feeling defeated, as you figure that changing the subject will get me to back down because you have "something" on me.

You have nothing on me. That column's not some secret that nobody knows about. It was read by millions of people, it wasn't the least bit hypocritical, and the facts in it were confirmed by everybody who was there. Among those who supported my take were numerous female sports journalists, including Marquette alums Trenni Kusnierek and Nancy Armour.

But nice try. Again.

Lenny has had you pegged from Day 1 and deserves credit for it. You didn't fool anybody a couple of years ago when you returned from one of your many "permanent bans" and begged forgiveness and claimed you'd changed. And you don't fool anybody now.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Skip Intro on March 28, 2019, 01:23:58 PM
I don't care about weed and I think that its stupid that we're still suspending and charging guys for something that is legal in half the country, so I'm glad he's playing. But that being said, what the hell difference does a drug test make vis-a-vis what he's charged with?

100% agreed - weed possession now is basically at (or below) the level of an underage drinking ticket on the "gasp" meter.  But whether he actually smoked the weed doesn't matter when it comes to the charge.  As another poster said, it's just a convenient way for Buzz to have his guy play, and neither Buzz nor Outlaw will be at VT much longer to face any consequences. 
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: #UnleashSean on March 28, 2019, 01:33:35 PM
I don't care about weed and I think that its stupid that we're still suspending and charging guys for something that is legal in half the country, so I'm glad he's playing. But that being said, what the hell difference does a drug test make vis-a-vis what he's charged with?
I agree completely. Those of you who think someone should be suspended over weed, do you drink at all?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Billy Hoyle on March 28, 2019, 01:43:05 PM
I happen to know what went on with all of that, is that okay??

I happened to know too - straight from the mouths of those MU had to hire. Is that ok?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on March 28, 2019, 01:49:28 PM
100% agreed - weed possession now is basically at (or below) the level of an underage drinking ticket on the "gasp" meter.  But whether he actually smoked the weed doesn't matter when it comes to the charge.  As another poster said, it's just a convenient way for Buzz to have his guy play, and neither Buzz nor Outlaw will be at VT much longer to face any consequences. 


It makes a difference because Outlaw is subject to random drug testing at an NCAA tournament game.  He wouldn't be eligible otherwise.  The test wasn't to assert his lack of guilt, because Buzz's statement addresses that he is still subject to VaTech's conduct policy, but to assert his eligibility.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: 79Warrior on March 28, 2019, 02:03:54 PM
This is Va Tech trying to say he took a 3rd party test and putting into question the original citation....deflection.  It's like "my client took a lie detector test" from a certified agency....worth nothing but some public opinion PR.  This outcome that he plays is absolutely not surprising at all, Buzz has nothing to lose before heading off to A&M where TAMU awaits.

A weed violation. Who cares.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 28, 2019, 02:43:40 PM
We didn't part ways when Buzz inappropriately handled sexual assault allegations
We didn't part ways when Buzz got us on the cover of the Chicago Tribune
We didn't part ways when Buzz's assistant committed an infraction
We didn't part ways when Buzz's subordinate lied

We parted ways when the winning stopped

Buzz chose to leave.  Buzz stopped the winning before he left, his last year picked 1st and we finished 6th...no NIT.  His team, his roster, his decision.  The winning stopped BEFORE he left....and then he left.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: The Lens on March 28, 2019, 02:56:18 PM
Buzz chose to leave.  Buzz stopped the winning before he left, his last year picked 1st and we finished 6th...no NIT.  His team, his roster, his decision.  The winning stopped BEFORE he left....and then he left.

Thanks for the clarification, while I have you, when does the other shoe drop?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 28, 2019, 03:01:51 PM
Thanks for the clarification, while I have you, when does the other shoe drop?

Didn’t you hear.....he gone...took a year off and collected millions from MU pretending to be our coach and took his shoes with him to Virginia....soon to be Texas.   Apparently Va Tech is no longer wanting him there...wasn’t that his mantra? 
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Goose on March 28, 2019, 03:12:11 PM
Cheeks

You and I are the only two guys that believe Buzz took his final year off at MU. I stopped caring if anyone believed it or not. There is no doubt in mind that character was revealed, again, during his final season at MU. I say it all the time, I am big Buzz guy, but I cannot dispute most claims against him.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Bocephys on March 28, 2019, 04:17:18 PM
Cheeks

You and I are the only two guys that believe Buzz took his final year off at MU. I stopped caring if anyone believed it or not. There is no doubt in mind that character was revealed, again, during his final season at MU. I say it all the time, I am big Buzz guy, but I cannot dispute most claims against him.

He revealed his character and you agree with the bad things people say about him, yet you’re a “big Buzz guy”?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: The Lens on March 28, 2019, 04:27:24 PM
Al McGuire once said to Mike Deane of Aaron Hutchins, you need him a lot more than he needs you. 

There are 350+ D1 jobs but only 1 Buzz.  If I was MU, I would have worked harder to to get Buzz to work harder, at MU.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on March 28, 2019, 04:35:04 PM
Al McGuire once said to Mike Deane of Aaron Hutchins, you need him a lot more than he needs you. 

There are 350+ D1 jobs but only 1 Buzz.  If I was MU, I would have worked harder to to get Buzz to work harder, at MU.


Marquette didn’t need Buzz Williams.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Goose on March 28, 2019, 04:50:35 PM
Bocephys

Yeah, I am big Buzz guy. In a profession that is littered with “bad character” guys, I would put Buzz on a six on a 1-10 scale.

I loved the way he supported his players, the type of player he recruited and the style of play they played. He created an us against the world mindset and that is my style.

As for his character, I think he 100% cashed it in his last season and made him against the brass. Not a big fan of that, but a decision I believe he made. MU gave him a chance and paid him well, he should have handled his final season better.

As I said earlier, I think he is a six on the scale of running a clean program. I could stomach that as a fan completely, minus anything to do with misbehavior with women. That said, I probably would not want to be his boss and constantly feeling the need to micro manage him. MU was not wrong for wanting him to toe the line.

Again, I am a MU basketball fan and his tenure was the closest to the old days by a wide margin. That is fine and dandy for me to approve, but means nothing in the big picture.

MU did what they believed to be best for the university and I have no gripes with that. Buzz is a strange dude and not for everyone. My guess is that there likely is a long list of his former players that love him. In my world, that means something.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: skianth16 on March 28, 2019, 05:18:33 PM

Marquette didn’t need Buzz Williams.

Sure, MU didn't need Buzz. We don't need to have a top tier basketball team. Heck, we don't even really need a basketball program at all. But having a basketball program sure does seem to benefit the university. And having a winning basketball team is an even bigger benefit.

Buzz has proven himself to be a pretty darn good head coach. There may be other coaches out there better than him, but Marquette isn't exactly in the running to get them. Keeping a coach that was able to make a few sweet 16s and an elite 8 is usually a pretty good idea. Those guys don't grow on trees.

Plus, rebuilding sucks, and it takes time. It sure seems a lot easier to work with the talented guy you have rather than choosing to start over. We were winning and getting guys into the NBA under Buzz. What have we gotten since he left?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 28, 2019, 05:21:29 PM
Sure, MU didn't need Buzz. We don't need to have a top tier basketball team. Heck, we don't even really need a basketball program at all. But having a basketball program sure does seem to benefit the university. And having a winning basketball team is an even bigger benefit.

Buzz has proven himself to be a pretty darn good head coach. There may be other coaches out there better than him, but Marquette isn't exactly in the running to get them. Keeping a coach that was able to make a few sweet 16s and an elite 8 is usually a pretty good idea. Those guys don't grow on trees.

Plus, rebuilding sucks, and it takes time. It sure seems a lot easier to work with the talented guy you have rather than choosing to start over. We were winning and getting guys into the NBA under Buzz. What have we gotten since he left?

The irony of you posting this on a thread linked to a fire buzz Williams thread that you started is hilarious.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: skianth16 on March 28, 2019, 05:27:40 PM
The irony of you posting this on a thread linked to a fire buzz Williams thread that you started is hilarious.

You know, people can change their mind over the course of 10 years.

Throughout the first year of Buzz, I was very frustrated watching an assistant take over a good program and go through the growing pains of taking on a bigger job. I thought we could have and should have gotten a seasoned head coach to take over the program. But after seeing what he was capable of after that first year, I began to really like the guy. It's as simple as that.

And that initial thread dredged back up 10 years later looks like it was posted on the day of a loss. So, that was probably a lot of venting frustration. Now, looking back objectively at what Buzz accomplished, it's very clear he was a good coach. One of the best we've had at MU.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 28, 2019, 05:42:56 PM
You know, people can change their mind over the course of 10 years.

Throughout the first year of Buzz, I was very frustrated watching an assistant take over a good program and go through the growing pains of taking on a bigger job. I thought we could have and should have gotten a seasoned head coach to take over the program. But after seeing what he was capable of after that first year, I began to really like the guy. It's as simple as that.

And that initial thread dredged back up 10 years later looks like it was posted on the day of a loss. So, that was probably a lot of venting frustration. Now, looking back objectively at what Buzz accomplished, it's very clear he was a good coach. One of the best we've had at MU.

So we shouldn't take anything you say near losses at face value?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Mutaman on March 28, 2019, 05:51:35 PM
Bocephys

Yeah, I am big Buzz guy. In a profession that is littered with “bad character” guys, I would put Buzz on a six on a 1-10 scale.



For those of us who are not in the know, why don't you state some actual facts to support this statement.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: tower912 on March 28, 2019, 05:54:40 PM
You know, people can change their mind over the course of 10 years.

Throughout the first year of Buzz, I was very frustrated watching an assistant take over a good program and go through the growing pains of taking on a bigger job. I thought we could have and should have gotten a seasoned head coach to take over the program. But after seeing what he was capable of after that first year, I began to really like the guy. It's as simple as that.

And that initial thread dredged back up 10 years later looks like it was posted on the day of a loss. So, that was probably a lot of venting frustration. Now, looking back objectively at what Buzz accomplished, it's very clear he was a good coach. One of the best we've had at MU.
I respect and appreciate this post.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 28, 2019, 05:59:58 PM
Al McGuire once said to Mike Deane of Aaron Hutchins, you need him a lot more than he needs you. 

There are 350+ D1 jobs but only 1 Buzz.  If I was MU, I would have worked harder to to get Buzz to work harder, at MU.

Uhm, he was getting paid to do a job....millions of dollars a year. He needed to do that job.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Mutaman on March 28, 2019, 06:04:37 PM
I happened to know too - straight from the mouths of those MU had to hire. Is that ok?

i suspect I am the only one on MU Scoop who has no idea "what went on". So I just read what Chico's posts during one of his non- suspension periods and assume the opposite happened.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: NickelDimer on March 28, 2019, 06:09:06 PM
What aspect of it? That a better coach would've gotten more out of 09? That  11 was an extremely meh season? That anybody could've won with the 12 team?
Buzz is a hell of a coach with bonafides! There’s no disputing that.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 28, 2019, 06:13:48 PM
You know, people can change their mind over the course of 10 years.

Throughout the first year of Buzz, I was very frustrated watching an assistant take over a good program and go through the growing pains of taking on a bigger job. I thought we could have and should have gotten a seasoned head coach to take over the program. But after seeing what he was capable of after that first year, I began to really like the guy. It's as simple as that.

And that initial thread dredged back up 10 years later looks like it was posted on the day of a loss. So, that was probably a lot of venting frustration. Now, looking back objectively at what Buzz accomplished, it's very clear he was a good coach. One of the best we've had at MU.

Buzz was a head coach before he became an assistant at MU, just for clarity. 
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: skianth16 on March 28, 2019, 06:21:16 PM
So we shouldn't take anything you say near losses at face value?

Haha, that's probably a good rule of thumb.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 28, 2019, 06:29:33 PM
Buzz is a hell of a coach with bonafides! There’s no disputing that.

That's not an argument, that's just reiterating an opinion.

I said he was a hell of a coach in 2010 and 2013. The other years I think it is more than warranted to question Buzz's coach capabilities at MU for the reasons I listed.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: NickelDimer on March 28, 2019, 06:40:43 PM
That's not an argument, that's just reiterating an opinion.

I said he was a hell of a coach in 2010 and 2013. The other years I think it is more than warranted to question Buzz's coach capabilities at MU for the reasons I listed.
You started the post claiming Buzz is overrated on this board. He’s not.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 28, 2019, 06:51:11 PM
You started the post claiming Buzz is overrated on this board. He’s not.

I then said my take on each of his seasons. Which was I wrong about? The only one I see as up for debate is the take on the 09 season.

Because you can't agree with my takes on those seasons and then say that he's not overrated. People gush over the 11 season's march run forgetting the regular season. People remember we went to the sweet 16 in 12 and Jae won BE POY but forget that we had a wide open bracket to the FF with Missouri and Michigan St losing but choked. People somehow excuse 14 and put it on Wojo. I gave Buzz due credit for his 2 well done coaching jobs
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on March 28, 2019, 06:52:03 PM
Sure, MU didn't need Buzz. We don't need to have a top tier basketball team. Heck, we don't even really need a basketball program at all. But having a basketball program sure does seem to benefit the university. And having a winning basketball team is an even bigger benefit.

Buzz has proven himself to be a pretty darn good head coach. There may be other coaches out there better than him, but Marquette isn't exactly in the running to get them. Keeping a coach that was able to make a few sweet 16s and an elite 8 is usually a pretty good idea. Those guys don't grow on trees.

Plus, rebuilding sucks, and it takes time. It sure seems a lot easier to work with the talented guy you have rather than choosing to start over. We were winning and getting guys into the NBA under Buzz. What have we gotten since he left?


Winning. You must not be paying attention.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 28, 2019, 07:01:21 PM
You started the post claiming Buzz is overrated on this board. He’s not.

Matter of opinion. 
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: NickelDimer on March 28, 2019, 07:03:36 PM
Matter of opinion.
Results speak for themselves
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 28, 2019, 07:10:43 PM
Results speak for themselves

Which ones, the year 6 not even making any tournament when he should have riding high off the previous trips and picked 1st? 

The blown Washington NCAA game, or do none of those types of things count unless Wojo or someone other than Buzz is doing them? 

Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: muguru on March 28, 2019, 07:17:39 PM
Which ones, the year 6 not even making any tournament when he should have riding high off the previous trips and picked 1st? 

The blown Washington NCAA game, or do none of those types of things count unless Wojo or someone other than Buzz is doing them?

You know Chicos...you keep bringing up how Buzz missed the tourney his last year..That was the ONLY year he missed the tourney at MU. But, my question is...how come you make it out to be such a big deal that he missed the tourney ONE year, and your boy Wojo has missed 3 out of 5 years but that's okay to you?? Not only has he missed, but the two times he did make it, he was blown out. Buzz won 8 tourney games in his time at MU. The blown washington game?? Tourney's a crap shoot according to you. But...okay Buzz blew it...hell, I'd have loved Wojo to even be in a position(ie a close game) to blow one of his two tourney games. Buzz was easily the second best Coach in MU history...not debatable.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Lennys Tap on March 28, 2019, 07:20:09 PM
I gave Buzz due credit for his 2 well done coaching jobs

I would give Buzz credit for 5 well done coaching jobs in 6 years.

But maybe you're just a really tough grader. If Buzz is 2 for 6 though, then Crean is 1 for 9 and Wojo is 0 for 5.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 28, 2019, 07:34:38 PM
I would give Buzz credit for 5 well done coaching jobs in 6 years.

But maybe you're just a really tough grader. If Buzz is 2 for 6 though, then Crean is 1 for 9 and Wojo is 0 for 5.

Honestly tell me do you think 18-13 (9-9) regular season is a successful year? It's mind boggling how two wins in the tournament make everybody forget just how not great that season was. We weren't in the tournament without beating Providence and West Virginia in the BE tournament and if I remember correctly we were still sweating it out on selection Sunday. I'm sorry that is not a well done coaching job.

In 2009 he inherited 4 of the best players to wear an MU uniform since the last of Al's guys left. I get DJ going down was awful but I maintain that a better coach could've done just fine with 3 of the best players in the past 30 years remaining.

In 2012 can you honestly tell me you're happy with where we left in March? Especially when you realise that Missouri and Michigan St were eliminated in our bracket?Even beyond that I am confident that almost any coach could've won with that team, but I'll give Buzz credit for putting them together all the same.
 
Those are the three years in question. One is unequivecally not a well done coaching job, another were not his players and he choked at the first sign of adversity. The last we did terrible in March for how great that team was, yet we bend over for buzz choking that year due to a bad matchup while hating Wojo for bad matchups.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 28, 2019, 07:40:47 PM
You know Chicos...you keep bringing up how Buzz missed the tourney his last year..That was the ONLY year he missed the tourney at MU. But, my question is...how come you make it out to be such a big deal that he missed the tourney ONE year, and your boy Wojo has missed 3 out of 5 years but that's okay to you?? Not only has he missed, but the two times he did make it, he was blown out. Buzz won 8 tourney games in his time at MU. The blown washington game?? Tourney's a crap shoot according to you. But...okay Buzz blew it...hell, I'd have loved Wojo to even be in a position(ie a close game) to blow one of his two tourney games. Buzz was easily the second best Coach in MU history...not debatable.

It is a crapshoot in who you play, where you play...how you play not so much.  Which is why I said our loss to Murray State was because of how we played, but it didn’t help that it was a horrible matchup for us.

To your other question, why is it that you bark that year five and he doesn’t win a NCAA game, but Year 6 for Buzz for a team picked to win the Big East you let it slide? 

Wojo has to clean up Buzz’s roster mess, including sending Mayo and others on their way.  He inherited a team that didn’t make any tournament.  You keep saying he inherited a great program, that’s fine and dandy but the immediate roster was not that great...so much so the great Brent Williams couldn’t do anything with it.  That’s the difference.

Also this, Buzz is a better coach than Wojo.  At least for now.  That may change or it may not. But a lot goes into being the coach at MU, outside the lines of the court included.  This is the part you haven’t cared about, you aren’t an alum, don’t run the university.  Buzz’s teams won 8 NCAA games in 6 years...well done.  6 years that were much different than the 5 Wojo has been a part of.  Different Big East, different college basketball landscape entirely.  Buzz tried it for one year and failed...Wojo has gone to three post season appearances in this new Big East.

Hopefully things continue to improve.  Are you going to buy a Texas A&M shirt?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 28, 2019, 07:47:40 PM
Honestly tell me do you think 18-13 (9-9) regular season is a successful year? It's mind boggling how two wins in the tournament make everybody forget just how not great that season was. We weren't in the tournament without beating Providence and West Virginia in the BE tournament and if I remember correctly we were still sweating it out on selection Sunday. I'm sorry that is not a well done coaching job.

In 2009 he inherited 4 of the best players to wear an MU uniform since the last of Al's guys left. I get DJ going down was awful but I maintain that a better coach could've done just fine with 3 of the best players in the past 30 years remaining.

In 2012 can you honestly tell me you're happy with where we left in March? Especially when you realise that Missouri and Michigan St were eliminated in our bracket?Even beyond that I am confident that almost any coach could've won with that team, but I'll give Buzz credit for putting them together all the same.
 
Those are the three years in question. One is unequivecally not a well done coaching job, another were not his players and he choked at the first sign of adversity. The last we did terrible in March for how great that team was, yet we bend over for buzz choking that year due to a bad matchup while hating Wojo for bad matchups.

Galway I know you remember how much of a grind the BEast was back then. Buzz did fine—could he have done better.  Of course. 

We’d all have no debate if the results today were as good.  In fact I bet we wouldn’t even be talking about him. 
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: DiaperDandy on March 28, 2019, 07:57:19 PM
Galway I know you remember how much of a grind the BEast was back then. Buzz did fine—could he have done better.  Of course. 

We’d all have no debate if the results today were as good.  In fact I bet we wouldn’t even be talking about him. 

+1000

The big east was a BEAST that season (11/16 teams made the tourney and UConn went on a run to win the Big East tourney and NCAA tourney as the last big east team to earn a bid). 

Stating that Buzz underperformed that season is foolish.  The old Big East was a completely different monster than what we have now.

What made that season great was the fact that we snuck in the tourney by beating wvu in the big east and then took out a 6 and 3 seed on our way to the sweet 16.  No one saw that coming and it was a pleasant surprise.  Taking out a conference rival in Syracuse was icing on the cake. 
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Lennys Tap on March 28, 2019, 08:28:40 PM

 
Those are the three years in question. One is unequivecally not a well done coaching job, another were not his players and he choked at the first sign of adversity. The last we did terrible in March for how great that team was, yet we bend over for buzz choking that year due to a bad matchup while hating Wojo for bad matchups.

The year we were 9-9 in the Big East conference regular season so was the team who won the frackin' National Championship. Nine (maybe more) teams in that conference would have won this year's version of the Big East. We lost our (by far) most important player in 2009 going into the toughest part of our season. No choke. The other year I think we were rated in the mid 20s by Pomeroy and make the S16. That's TERRIBLE? LOL. Crean did better once in 9 years, worse in 8. Wojo hasn't come close in 5. Again, if you want to be an impossible grader, then say Buzz is 2 for 6. But only if you concede Crean was 1 for 9 and Wojo is 0 for 5. On any curve that's an "A".
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: muguru on March 28, 2019, 08:30:19 PM
It is a crapshoot in who you play, where you play...how you play not so much.  Which is why I said our loss to Murray State was because of how we played, but it didn’t help that it was a horrible matchup for us.

To your other question, why is it that you bark that year five and he doesn’t win a NCAA game, but Year 6 for Buzz for a team picked to win the Big East you let it slide? 

Wojo has to clean up Buzz’s roster mess, including sending Mayo and others on their way.  He inherited a team that didn’t make any tournament.  You keep saying he inherited a great program, that’s fine and dandy but the immediate roster was not that great...so much so the great Brent Williams couldn’t do anything with it.  That’s the difference.

Also this, Buzz is a better coach than Wojo.  At least for now.  That may change or it may not. But a lot goes into being the coach at MU, outside the lines of the court included.  This is the part you haven’t cared about, you aren’t an alum, don’t run the university.  Buzz’s teams won 8 NCAA games in 6 years...well done.  6 years that were much different than the 5 Wojo has been a part of.  Different Big East, different college basketball landscape entirely.  Buzz tried it for one year and failed...Wojo has gone to three post season appearances in this new Big East.

Hopefully things continue to improve.  Are you going to buy a Texas A&M shirt?

I wasn't happy with Buzz's last year by any stretch...BUT, he at least earns a little reprieve because of all the success he had previously. Doesn't let him off the hook entirely for that year, but helps some.

Wojo hasn't earned Sh*t. He had an INCREDIBLY talented team this year...and yet..they had a 1-6 finish to end the season, and apparently Wojo didn't know why. Don't you find a problem with that?? How can the Coach NOT know why HIS team finished so poorly??

You keep adding in Wojo's NIT year, it doesn't mean jack squat. Who gives two sh*ts about the N(ot)I(n)T(ournament)?? Will we count it as an accomplishment if they go to the CBI like DePaul has done this year. Wojo failed MISERABLY in the year he had an NBA draft pick on his roster. Talk about horrible coaching jobs..Absolutely god awful job to not take that team to the tournament.

Your right...Buzz's years were different...for one, let's not forget he had all the success he had in the TOUGHEST conference ever assembled. Wojo would get eaten alive in a conference like that. Buzz also had to put up his last couple of years with the absolute douche Larry Williams, and Father Pilarz who was a dolt himself. Worst administration the University has ever had and it's not close. Larry Williams had ZERO business running a major athletic department. None. The only reason he was brought in was to run Buzz out(and if you say differently you are TOTALLY FULL OF SH*T) and for as much as you at least pretend to know, you would HAVE to know that, and he succeeded. pretty boy ruined the BB program..cannot stand that man..
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: connie on March 28, 2019, 08:33:16 PM
We’d all have no debate if the results today were as good.  In fact I bet we wouldn’t even be talking about him.
I, for one, would love to have something to talk about other than Bert.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 28, 2019, 08:34:21 PM
I, for one, would love to have something to talk about other than Bert.

Like maybe our upcoming game???
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Goose on March 28, 2019, 08:35:24 PM
guru
If you feel this was incredibly talented team, not so sure I am on your bandwagon anymore. You have seen incredibly talented teams in your life, don’t you remember?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: muguru on March 28, 2019, 08:42:15 PM
guru
If you feel this was incredibly talented team, not so sure I am on your bandwagon anymore. You have seen incredibly talented teams in your life, don’t you remember?

Yes you're right I have Goose, but this team was more talented then the 1-6 slide indicated...they were closer talent wise to the top 10 team. Now, was the talent utilized properly all the time?? That's the question.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Goose on March 28, 2019, 08:48:58 PM
guru

I think you and Ty Law might be hanging together these days. I am with you on what I want from program, but these guys are light years from even Buzz’s teams.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 28, 2019, 10:47:06 PM
The year we were 9-9 in the Big East conference regular season so was the team who won the frackin' National Championship. Nine (maybe more) teams in that conference would have won this year's version of the Big East. We lost our (by far) most important player in 2009 going into the toughest part of our season. No choke. The other year I think we were rated in the mid 20s by Pomeroy and make the S16. That's TERRIBLE? LOL. Crean did better once in 9 years, worse in 8. Wojo hasn't come close in 5. Again, if you want to be an impossible grader, then say Buzz is 2 for 6. But only if you concede Crean was 1 for 9 and Wojo is 0 for 5. On any curve that's an "A".

18-13, 9-9, 4 wins over tournament teams. good regular season yes or no? It's as simple as that, I personally hold us to a higher standard than that. Also UConn went undefeated in the noncon sitting at 21 wins is a heck of a lot nicer looking at the end of the regular season.

2009 is a matter of judgement, I don't think buzz had to coach much, had 4 starters that were seniors and one junior, 4 of the starters will be in the MU HoF at some point all with multiple NCAA tournament trips. I feel that when it came time to have to coach due to the injury, he failed and that a better coach would've succeeded given that Wes, Jerel and Lazar are a core than 95% of the country would've killed for that year.

I said the regular season was fantastic in 2012, thats why I've only said just about anybody could've coached that team but give him credit for building it. How are you going to sit there and act like you're happy with that sweet 16? You're fooling yourself or have low standards for us if that's the case. That march was depressing for a team like that, they looked woefully lost against Florida and struggled with Murray St till late. So many people here believe march is the end all be all and if they're happy with that march (unlike the prior one) they're kidding themselves too.

My point had nothing to do with Crean or Wojo and was only that a lot of you and others here put Buzz way too high on a pedestal.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Herman Cain on March 28, 2019, 11:18:38 PM
I wasn't happy with Buzz's last year by any stretch...BUT, he at least earns a little reprieve because of all the success he had previously. Doesn't let him off the hook entirely for that year, but helps some.

Wojo hasn't earned Sh*t. He had an INCREDIBLY talented team this year...and yet..they had a 1-6 finish to end the season, and apparently Wojo didn't know why. Don't you find a problem with that?? How can the Coach NOT know why HIS team finished so poorly??

You keep adding in Wojo's NIT year, it doesn't mean jack squat. Who gives two sh*ts about the N(ot)I(n)T(ournament)?? Will we count it as an accomplishment if they go to the CBI like DePaul has done this year. Wojo failed MISERABLY in the year he had an NBA draft pick on his roster. Talk about horrible coaching jobs..Absolutely god awful job to not take that team to the tournament.

Your right...Buzz's years were different...for one, let's not forget he had all the success he had in the TOUGHEST conference ever assembled. Wojo would get eaten alive in a conference like that. Buzz also had to put up his last couple of years with the absolute douche Larry Williams, and Father Pilarz who was a dolt himself. Worst administration the University has ever had and it's not close. Larry Williams had ZERO business running a major athletic department. None. The only reason he was brought in was to run Buzz out(and if you say differently you are TOTALLY FULL OF SH*T) and for as much as you at least pretend to know, you would HAVE to know that, and he succeeded. pretty boy ruined the BB program..cannot stand that man..
Larry Williams was a supreme ego maniac. I spent an afternoon with him early on and came to the exact same conclusion you did.  Truly tragic that Williams ran the best coach since Al out of town.

   
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Uncle Rico on March 29, 2019, 07:39:39 AM
NM :(
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on March 29, 2019, 07:48:42 AM
I wasn't happy with Buzz's last year by any stretch...BUT, he at least earns a little reprieve because of all the success he had previously. Doesn't let him off the hook entirely for that year, but helps some.

Wojo hasn't earned Sh*t. He had an INCREDIBLY talented team this year...and yet..they had a 1-6 finish to end the season, and apparently Wojo didn't know why. Don't you find a problem with that?? How can the Coach NOT know why HIS team finished so poorly??

You keep adding in Wojo's NIT year, it doesn't mean jack squat. Who gives two sh*ts about the N(ot)I(n)T(ournament)?? Will we count it as an accomplishment if they go to the CBI like DePaul has done this year. Wojo failed MISERABLY in the year he had an NBA draft pick on his roster. Talk about horrible coaching jobs..Absolutely god awful job to not take that team to the tournament.

Your right...Buzz's years were different...for one, let's not forget he had all the success he had in the TOUGHEST conference ever assembled. Wojo would get eaten alive in a conference like that. Buzz also had to put up his last couple of years with the absolute douche Larry Williams, and Father Pilarz who was a dolt himself. Worst administration the University has ever had and it's not close. Larry Williams had ZERO business running a major athletic department. None. The only reason he was brought in was to run Buzz out(and if you say differently you are TOTALLY FULL OF SH*T) and for as much as you at least pretend to know, you would HAVE to know that, and he succeeded. pretty boy ruined the BB program..cannot stand that man..


Larry Williams and Scott Pilarz were gone, and Cords and Wild were in place, before Buzz left.  I get that both were dolts, but Buzz made his decision to leave after they actually left.

Blaming them, when Buzz had a lot of issues himself, is odd considering.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 29, 2019, 08:16:54 AM
You can call Larry a dolt all you want, but without him, we might be stuck playing Tulane and ECU right now. He and the Villanova AD were the the two biggest forces behind the Catholic 7 movement.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Lennys Tap on March 29, 2019, 08:59:54 AM

Larry Williams and Scott Pilarz were gone, and Cords and Wild were in place, before Buzz left.  I get that both were dolts, but Buzz made his decision to leave after they actually left.

Blaming them, when Buzz had a lot of issues himself, is odd considering.

They effectively (as was their mission) poisoned the well. Their incompetence cost them their jobs but they won the war by creating a hostile environment.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on March 29, 2019, 09:03:45 AM
They effectively (as was their mission) poisoned the well. Their incompetence cost them their jobs but they won the war by creating a hostile environment.


It's amazing the lengths that people will take to completely absolve Buzz of any responsibility here.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Lennys Tap on March 29, 2019, 09:12:44 AM

It's amazing the lengths that people will take to completely absolve Buzz of any responsibility here.

Buzz has some -but only some.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Pakuni on March 29, 2019, 09:42:44 AM
Buzz has some -but only some.

Buzz got what he wanted and still chose to leave.it was his decision and his decision alone. Blaming his departure on others is disingenuous at best.
Some of you are like jilted boyfriends making excuses for the girl who dumped you.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on March 29, 2019, 09:46:20 AM
Buzz got what he wanted and still chose to leave.it was his decision and his decision alone. Blaming his departure on others is disingenuous at best.
Some of you are like jilted boyfriends making excuses for the girl who dumped you.

I wonder if people on VTScoop are going to be making the same excuses for Buzz five years later that people here are making.  It's kind of embarrassing. 
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 29, 2019, 09:56:15 AM
I wonder if people on VTScoop are going to be making the same excuses for Buzz five years later that people here are making.  It's kind of embarrassing.

This.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 29, 2019, 10:17:56 AM
I wonder if people on VTScoop are going to be making the same excuses for Buzz five years later that people here are making.  It's kind of embarrassing.

VT14 has some insight.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: MU82 on March 29, 2019, 10:27:59 AM
Cheeks

You and I are the only two guys that believe Buzz took his final year off at MU. I stopped caring if anyone believed it or not. There is no doubt in mind that character was revealed, again, during his final season at MU. I say it all the time, I am big Buzz guy, but I cannot dispute most claims against him.

Well, aren't we three unique peas in a pod ... me, Goose and chicos!

I have been a Warriors fan since 1978-79 (my freshman year), and Buzz's 2013-14 squad was the most disappointed and frustrated I have ever been in a Marquette team.

Actually, though, I don't think we're the only 3 Scoopers who believe Buzz mailed it in that year. There are other peas in this pod.

Having said that, I believe Buzz was a very good coach who became better as his career went on. Take away that final year, when he obviously had "lost his happy" and was going to make MU pay for that, and only a few would argue that he has not delivered the goods at MU and now VT.

I am glad Buzz was our coach, got a lot of enjoyment watching his teams play, including the one that beat Cuse to get to the Sweet 16. That was a gritty, fun team to watch.

And I was glad Crean was our coach, too. 2003 was special, Wade was special, and there were other outstanding recruits. The program was put back on the right trajectory. Plus, he hired Buzz.

And I am glad Wojo is our coach now. I obviously understand why the final 7 games frustrated the hell out of people; I didn't particularly care for it, either. Nobody did. But I enjoyed the first 80% of this season tremendously, saw a lot of improvement in individual players as well as in team defense, and I look forward to an outstanding 2019-20 season.

We are Marquette!

Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Goose on March 29, 2019, 10:35:07 AM
MU 82

I am happy to hear you felt Buzz mailed it in. I stated that many times that season and I was blasted on here. He had quit a year before he left MU, but just did not let the fans know. Said back then, but Buzz was gone a year earlier if  we had not made E8 that season. He was given his "instructions" during that season.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Lennys Tap on March 29, 2019, 10:37:32 AM
I wonder if people on VTScoop are going to be making the same excuses for Buzz five years later that people here are making.  It's kind of embarrassing.

Why would they need to make excuses for the the most successful coach in school history? They should enjoy an incredible ride they thought they would never have.

They (and most MU fans) won't be making "excuses". They'll be remembering fondly the best and (in MU's case) the second best eras in their school's basketball history.

Don't waste your time being embarrassed for them or us. Be embarrassed for yourself.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Goose on March 29, 2019, 10:40:20 AM
Lenny

For me, it was the second best time to be an MU in my lifetime. IMO, we were close, close, close to being what I would love to see on the court every season. My guess is VT fans will remember Buzz fondly as well.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on March 29, 2019, 10:41:08 AM
Why would they need to make excuses for the the most successful coach in school history? They should enjoy an incredible ride they thought they would never have.

They (and most MU fans) won't be making "excuses". They'll be remembering fondly the best and (in MU's case) the second best eras in their school's basketball history.

Don't waste your time being embarrassed for them or us. Be embarrassed for yourself.


I enjoyed Buzz's time here.  It was fun.

But he left on his own with a bare cupboard in place, even though those above him had been replaced.  It was a calculated move on his part, which is fine, but garners no sympathy from me.  The fact that people are still pining for him is embarrassing. 
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Pakuni on March 29, 2019, 10:47:24 AM

I enjoyed Buzz's time here.  It was fun.

But he left on his own with a bare cupboard in place, even though those above him had been replaced.  It was a calculated move on his part, which is fine, but garners no sympathy from me.  The fact that people are still pining for him is embarrassing.

Exactly this.
The reason Buzz left is because he wanted to leave. Not because someone messed with his happy or hurt his feelings. He wanted it. And he wanted it long before Larry Williams and Scott Pilarz supposedly hurt his feels (see: flirtations with SMU, Oklahoma)
And that's fine. Doesn't make him a bad guy. But the incessant pining from some Marquette fans over a guy who couldn't wait to leave town is indeed embarrassing.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: skianth16 on March 29, 2019, 10:57:26 AM
I wonder if people on VTScoop are going to be making the same excuses for Buzz five years later that people here are making.  It's kind of embarrassing.

This just doesn't make any sense. What fan wouldn't want to have the same level of program we had under Buzz? It doesn't matter why or how he left. Should we take down the Wade and Final Four banners because Crean left on his own too? Are we only allowed to look back fondly on coaches that were fired?

Buzz's teams were a ton of fun to watch, and they were very successful. That era was one of the best ever for MU fans. To deny how good of a coach he was or to downplay his success here just because he chose to leave for another program doesn't change the actual history he created here. Just because Wojo is here now and Buzz is gone doesn't mean that fans should automatically think more highly of Wojo and think less of Buzz.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on March 29, 2019, 11:07:46 AM
This just doesn't make any sense. What fan wouldn't want to have the same level of program we had under Buzz? It doesn't matter why or how he left. Should we take down the Wade and Final Four banners because Crean left on his own too? Are we only allowed to look back fondly on coaches that were fired?

Buzz's teams were a ton of fun to watch, and they were very successful. That era was one of the best ever for MU fans. To deny how good of a coach he was or to downplay his success here just because he chose to leave for another program doesn't change the actual history he created here. Just because Wojo is here now and Buzz is gone doesn't mean that fans should automatically think more highly of Wojo and think less of Buzz.


Of course we should be happy for what was accomplished during the Buzz era.  How he left only matters because some here want to bend history to blame Marquette, when Buzz did what he wanted to do by his own accord.  I guess he accomplished what he wanted to by actually getting people to believe he was the victim in all of this.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: brewcity77 on March 29, 2019, 11:29:49 AM
This just doesn't make any sense. What fan wouldn't want to have the same level of program we had under Buzz?

That's not the problem. It's the odd belief that some seem to hold that by firing Wojo, we'll magically return to those halcyon days.

For me, this year proved two things. First, Wojo can absolutely recruit & develop a top-10 team. We know this because that's where we were in February. Second, Wojo has not yet developed the consistency to be considered an elite coach. We know this because of the last month.

At the end of the year, Wojo posted the 5th best regular season in the 64+ team era. The way it ended was disappointing, but the net result was still a clear positive. He's not going anywhere, & Buzz isn't coming back even if he does, so why pine for the one that left?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: MU82 on March 29, 2019, 02:02:14 PM
That's not the problem. It's the odd belief that some seem to hold that by firing Wojo, we'll magically return to those halcyon days.

For me, this year proved two things. First, Wojo can absolutely recruit & develop a top-10 team. We know this because that's where we were in February. Second, Wojo has not yet developed the consistency to be considered an elite coach. We know this because of the last month.

At the end of the year, Wojo posted the 5th best regular season in the 64+ team era. The way it ended was disappointing, but the net result was still a clear positive. He's not going anywhere, & Buzz isn't coming back even if he does, so why pine for the one that left?

Superbly stated, brewski.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Nukem2 on March 29, 2019, 02:05:14 PM
That's not the problem. It's the odd belief that some seem to hold that by firing Wojo, we'll magically return to those halcyon days.

For me, this year proved two things. First, Wojo can absolutely recruit & develop a top-10 team. We know this because that's where we were in February. Second, Wojo has not yet developed the consistency to be considered an elite coach. We know this because of the last month.

At the end of the year, Wojo posted the 5th best regular season in the 64+ team era. The way it ended was disappointing, but the net result was still a clear positive. He's not going anywhere, & Buzz isn't coming back even if he does, so why pine for the one that left?
Yup.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: muguru on March 29, 2019, 02:42:06 PM
I wanted to post this to show everyone what I wanted/hoped for under Wojo...Everyone always says "it takes time". Well, this proves it doesn't. Granted it's not at the "elite" level, like I pine for, but if Chris Beard could do this in three years, why could Wojo not?? You talk about a positive trend! If MU had this the last 3 years under Wojo, I'd be completely satisfied, and sing his praises constantly.

Texas Tech Red Raiders (Big 12 Conference) (2016–present) 
2016–17  Texas Tech  18–14 6–12 T–7th 
2017–18  Texas Tech  27–10 11–7 T–2nd NCAA Division I Elite Eight 
2018–19  Texas Tech  29–6 14–4 T–1st NCAA Division I Elite Eight 


I more wanted to say "it can be done" in the time frame I wanted to see...again, not "elite" level, but damn if this isn't impressive as hell in 3 years. Again, I will ask, why would this be unrealistic to have asked for from Wojo??
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on March 29, 2019, 02:46:35 PM
Because Chris Beard is a better coach than Wojo.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: MU82 on March 29, 2019, 02:56:42 PM
I wanted to post this to show everyone what I wanted/hoped for under Wojo...Everyone always says "it takes time". Well, this proves it doesn't. Granted it's not at the "elite" level, like I pine for, but if Chris Beard could do this in three years, why could Wojo not?? You talk about a positive trend! If MU had this the last 3 years under Wojo, I'd be completely satisfied, and sing his praises constantly.

Texas Tech Red Raiders (Big 12 Conference) (2016–present) 
2016–17  Texas Tech  18–14 6–12 T–7th 
2017–18  Texas Tech  27–10 11–7 T–2nd NCAA Division I Elite Eight 
2018–19  Texas Tech  29–6 14–4 T–1st NCAA Division I Elite Eight 


I more wanted to say "it can be done" in the time frame I wanted to see...again, not "elite" level, but damn if this isn't impressive as hell in 3 years. Again, I will ask, why would this be unrealistic to have asked for from Wojo??

Of course it can happen. It has, as with Beard.

I don't know anything about TTech. I don't know if they already had all the pieces in place or if they don't care about academics or if they brought in a bunch of jucos or if Beard is simply a great recruiter and coach.

On the surface, it's darn impressive, and, sure, I wish we had as much success in Wojo's first three years as TTech has had in Beard's first three years.

Why didn't it happen under Wojo? Not sure. Also not sure why it didn't happen under Wright, under K, under Wooden, under Calhoun, under Dean Smith, under Massimino, under Sutton, under Driesell, under Olson, under Henson, under Beilein, under Calipari, under Barnes, under Thompson, etc.

Is Beard also a better coach than all of them were?
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on March 29, 2019, 03:44:48 PM
Beard has a great deal of experience in a variety of settings.  As did Buzz.  I think it helped them both succeed.  That has been one of Wojo's negatives - he was exposed to one program when he got to MU.  That lack of diversity didn't serve him well.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: BM1090 on March 29, 2019, 03:59:42 PM
Beard is awesome. He's going to win wherever he goes.

He's the exception, not the rule.
Title: Re: Fire Buzz Williams memory lane thread
Post by: Cheeks on March 29, 2019, 05:55:04 PM
I wanted to post this to show everyone what I wanted/hoped for under Wojo...Everyone always says "it takes time". Well, this proves it doesn't. Granted it's not at the "elite" level, like I pine for, but if Chris Beard could do this in three years, why could Wojo not?? You talk about a positive trend! If MU had this the last 3 years under Wojo, I'd be completely satisfied, and sing his praises constantly.

Texas Tech Red Raiders (Big 12 Conference) (2016–present) 
2016–17  Texas Tech  18–14 6–12 T–7th 
2017–18  Texas Tech  27–10 11–7 T–2nd NCAA Division I Elite Eight 
2018–19  Texas Tech  29–6 14–4 T–1st NCAA Division I Elite Eight 


I more wanted to say "it can be done" in the time frame I wanted to see...again, not "elite" level, but damn if this isn't impressive as hell in 3 years. Again, I will ask, why would this be unrealistic to have asked for from Wojo??

Tubby Smith had Tech going in a positive direction when he left...he was only there a few years including NCAA berth his last year.

2014-15  13-19   3-15 conference
2015-16  19-13   9-9 conference  NCAA

Beard took over a NCAA team on an upward trajectory.  Wojo took over a team that wasn't even in the NIT, on a downward trajectory.  Why do you continue to make these apple to oranges comparisons with Wojo?

That is not taking anything away from Beard, who has a helluva a team this year.  I was there last night, these guys are amazing on defense.  A lot of Tech fans showed up and absolutely drowned out the Meatchicken fans.  Gonzaga fans are worried, I can tell you that.