MUScoop

There were several comments by members here sarcastically deriding that we run a clean program, or attempt to.  Apparently that was one reason for coach Williams minor transgressions that did not sit well with administrators.

Is it important to you?

In light of LSU winning yesterday and may have to vacate their title.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/lsu-wins-outright-sec-title-that-tiger-fans-celebrated-even-though-itll-probably-be-vacated/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

I know that after the transgressions under Crean and Williams, the administration wanted the anti-Buzz.   They got him.     Now, it is probably a coincidence, but MU's greatest basketball heights have come with a coach who was considered a rebel or quirky.      Al routinely thumbed his nose at the NCAA.   Buzz pushed the envelope.     Crean was a by-the-numbers coach who was unable to make his teams better than the sums of their parts.    So far, it is fair to say the same about Wojo.    Crean had his share of recruits who were not model citizens.   By the numbers, more Crean recruits got in trouble than Buzz recruits.     So far, none of Wojo's recruits have gotten into trouble.

In the end, it doesn't matter what I think.   It matters what the Marquette powers-that-be think.   

There is a threshold of cleanliness that needs to be achieved. Once you achieve that, winning matters most provided you don't dip below that threshold.

Yes, with a few de minimus exceptions.

I could live with occasional, truly minor things that don't affect the playing field (like Majerus taking a kid to a coffee shop at the hotel he lived in at Utah), but I would be very disappointed to learn of any significant and/or systematic violations.

As for the kids themselves, I can live with the stuff all college kids do (an underage drink, and such), but again would not want MU to tolerate acts of violence, cheating, academic misconduct, etc.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 10, 2019, 03:03:36 PM
There is a threshold of cleanliness that needs to be achieved. Once you achieve that, winning matters most provided you don't dip below that threshold.

Yes what does clean mean?

  if that "threshold" is the belly button, I'd say dip away as long as all the consent forms are signed, eyeyey'na heyooooo

What does "by the numbers" mean in regards to Crean?  He wasn't squeaky clean at IU.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 10, 2019, 03:29:53 PM
What does "by the numbers" mean in regards to Crean?  He wasn't squeaky clean at IU.

Would 'paint-by-numbers' be a better description?

What I mean is that his offenses and defenses were pretty basic, no real innovations.    I remember when he arrived he said something along the lines of having a notebook with 3000 plays in it.   But the same 3 man weave.    He occasionally tried a vanilla zone, assuming that since he couldn't run an offense against it, neither could anyone else.     

Crean won 190 games in 9 years and took MU to a final four.   For those things, I thank him.   But time, distance, and perspective have led me to realize that he was, to my way of thinking, a 'paint-by-numbers' coach, and not an artist or innovator.

Buzz ran a clean enough program for me while pushing some boundaries. That's my baseline for a guy that can coach as well as him

Quote from: tower912 on March 10, 2019, 03:36:35 PM
  Would 'paint-by-numbers' be a better description?

What I mean is that his offenses and defenses were pretty basic, no real innovations.    I remember when he arrived he said something along the lines of having a notebook with 3000 plays in it.   But the same 3 man weave.    He occasionally tried a vanilla zone, assuming that since he couldn't run an offense against it, neither could anyone else.     

Crean won 190 games in 9 years and took MU to a final four.   For those things, I thank him.   But time, distance, and perspective have led me to realize that he was, to my way of thinking, a 'paint-by-numbers' coach, and not an artist or innovator.

Got it.  I thought you were referring to his recruiting.  Thanks.

Quote from: tower912 on March 10, 2019, 02:50:29 PM
I know that after the transgressions under Crean and Williams, the administration wanted the anti-Buzz.   They got him.     Now, it is probably a coincidence, but MU's greatest basketball heights have come with a coach who was considered a rebel or quirky.      Al routinely thumbed his nose at the NCAA.   Buzz pushed the envelope.     Crean was a by-the-numbers coach who was unable to make his teams better than the sums of their parts.    So far, it is fair to say the same about Wojo.    Crean had his share of recruits who were not model citizens.   By the numbers, more Crean recruits got in trouble than Buzz recruits.     So far, none of Wojo's recruits have gotten into trouble.

In the end, it doesn't matter what I think.   It matters what the Marquette powers-that-be think.

Please tell me the Crean recruits and players who were arrested and/or suspended, the rape scandals that he got involved with to shut down, the academic ineligibility issues, etc., or assistants involved in NCAA violations to where they had to quit, you know, as occurred under Buzz's tenure.

When guys got in trouble under Crean (Bell, Mortenson, Matthews) they were gone, no second chances, as it should be. Hell, one got dismissed by TC for Mary Jane and Buzz brought him back.

Buzz and his players laughed at academic and behavioral standards at MU.

I count Ammo among Crean's, too.    I seem to remember when he and Mortenson were cut loose that the AD was quite offended by their actions.    And I am not defending what happened under Buzz.    Just pointing out that there were a number of players with ties to Crean who also got in trouble. 

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2006/05/freshman-matt-mortensen-dismissed-from.html

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 10, 2019, 03:43:26 PM

Hell, one got dismissed by TC for Mary Jane and Buzz brought him back.

Buzz and his players laughed at academic and behavioral standards at MU.

As he should have. Who cares about weed? Or underage drinking. Stop being a prude.

Quote from: #UnleashCain on March 10, 2019, 03:50:29 PM
As he should have. Who cares about weed? Or underage drinking. Stop being a prude.

I vape myself, but when it's multiple failures as a scholarship student-athlete in violation of school and NCAA policy, it's time to go.

Love this thread.  We just pissed away a Big East regular season title and a high seed in the Tournament, so why not try to distract people from that by reminding them what a horrible human being Buzz was when he coached here half a decade ago?

Quote from: #UnleashCain on March 10, 2019, 03:50:29 PM
As he should have. Who cares about weed? Or underage drinking. Stop being a prude.

  the problem ain't that they "partook" but that they got caught.  gotta be cool about it and maintain man...gotta maintain

Mu main beef was sexual assault. Everything else was meh. My son was at the bar right by the team prior to the altercation, the UW-Milwaukee players started the whole thing, they started giving crap to the team and one of the UW players started to try to move on one of the girlfriends or date with the MU guys. He told me he knew it was going to get ugly.

Quote from: NickelDimer on March 10, 2019, 03:37:11 PM
Buzz ran a clean enough program for me while pushing some boundaries. That's my baseline for a guy that can coach as well as him

+1000, he never violated any NCAA rules, and more importantly to me...he won, and won a lot. too many people freak out about some things that happened off the court..They point to that and say that was why they wanted Buzz gone...that's ridiculous. as long as NCAA rules are being followed and you win...and win as much as he did..I want him. The stupid administration ruined MU basketball because they didn't like him.

Quote from: muguru on March 10, 2019, 04:31:53 PM
+1000, he never violated any NCAA rules, and more importantly to me...he won, and won a lot. too many people freak out about some things that happened off the court..They point to that and say that was why they wanted Buzz gone...that's ridiculous. as long as NCAA rules are being followed and you win...and win as much as he did..I want him. The stupid administration ruined MU basketball because they didn't like him.

There were some NCAA violations, no major ones, but there were some

I am not the moral arbiter for collegiate behavior (and from what I have seen the NCAA shouldn't be either).  I don't want our players duck taping their room mates to chairs and interrogating them with cigarettes, but honestly, minor violations wouldn't phase me.

Quote from: Research Report on March 10, 2019, 04:03:29 PM
Love this thread.  We just pissed away a Big East regular season title and a high seed in the Tournament, so why not try to distract people from that by reminding them what a horrible human being Buzz was when he coached here half a decade ago?

Was thinking the exact same thing

Patrick "ATM" Hazel

Let's start with the obvious:

Clean means that our ballplayers' sexual antic s DO NOT end up on Page 1 of the Chicago Tribune.

Clean means that our Public Safety employees follow Wisconsin law, even when basketball players are involved.

Clean means we are recruiting within the rules of the NCAA. That's means we follow rules for spending, avoiding payment to agents, families and players themselves.

Clean means we accept that there are limitations on when we can call on players, when we can text them and when we can write them.

Beyond that, Marquette should expect that our ballplayers are college students. We know they will inevitably do dumb things and some of those dumb things may bring unwanted and perhaps unwarranted publicity on themselves and on Marquette. We respect them as people but expect them to respect the university and we the community as well.

Marquette basketball players get degrees. Even if they turn pro early,  Marquette should expect and encourage them to come back as their lives permit and earn their degrees.

That's a clean program. This is what matters and, candidly, Marquette has to stand for something. Those among us who remember the Al days also remember that Coach McGuire's players graduated. Coach insisted on it and I believe only two did not have degrees by the time they were 30. Kids that left early inevitably came back and Marquette worked with them to get them their degrees.

Look, we need to find a way to be elite and to be clean!

Yeah butt, wee kant even win the BE outwrite in 4 tries, hey?

Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 10, 2019, 07:18:15 PM
Yeah butt, wee kant even win the BE outwrite in 4 tries, hey?

The Portage County Polacks say....  yah, but.  Youse got the syntax all goofy.

Quote from: dgies9156 on March 10, 2019, 07:12:52 PM
Let's start with the obvious:

Clean means that our ballplayers' sexual antic s DO NOT end up on Page 1 of the Chicago Tribune.

Clean means that our Public Safety employees follow Wisconsin law, even when basketball players are involved.

Clean means we are recruiting within the rules of the NCAA. That's means we follow rules for spending, avoiding payment to agents, families and players themselves.

Clean means we accept that there are limitations on when we can call on players, when we can text them and when we can write them.

Beyond that, Marquette should expect that our ballplayers are college students. We know they will inevitably do dumb things and some of those dumb things may bring unwanted and perhaps unwarranted publicity on themselves and on Marquette. We respect them as people but expect them to respect the university and we the community as well.

Marquette basketball players get degrees. Even if they turn pro early,  Marquette should expect and encourage them to come back as their lives permit and earn their degrees.

That's a clean program. This is what matters and, candidly, Marquette has to stand for something. Those among us who remember the Al days also remember that Coach McGuire's players graduated. Coach insisted on it and I believe only two did not have degrees by the time they were 30. Kids that left early inevitably came back and Marquette worked with them to get them their degrees.

Look, we need to find a way to be elite and to be clean!

Agreed, need to find a way to be an elite team with good people. I prefer not cheer for dirt bag people. 😇

Stupidest. Thread. Ever.

And that's saying a lot.

Quote from: connie on March 10, 2019, 05:56:16 PM
I am not the moral arbiter for collegiate behavior (and from what I have seen the NCAA shouldn't be either).  I don't want our players duck taping their room mates to chairs and interrogating them with cigarettes, but honestly, minor violations wouldn't phase me.

And you get to be the one to decide? Or can I be the one?

That sounds snarky, but I don't mean it that way. Rather, everyone has a different opinion as to what a "minor violation" is. Maybe you and I would agree - maybe we wouldn't. But to a defender of any particular institution, almost anything could be classified as minor where an outside might not see it that way..

Quote from: Research Report on March 10, 2019, 04:03:29 PM
Love this thread.  We just pissed away a Big East regular season title and a high seed in the Tournament, so why not try to distract people from that by reminding them what a horrible human being Buzz was when he coached here half a decade ago?

That was not the purpose of it.  Multiple members said at least we have a clean program sarcastically implying we shouldn't and it would lead to better results apparently if we were less clean.

How important is it to our graduates and fans? 

Quote from: NickelDimer on March 10, 2019, 03:37:11 PM
Buzz ran a clean enough program for me while pushing some boundaries. That's my baseline for a guy that can coach as well as him

Buzz is shady. I know of a program that routinely runs afoul of NCAA regs that considered Buzz, but decided against him because he painted too far outside the lines.

Quote from: dgies9156 on March 10, 2019, 07:12:52 PM
Let's start with the obvious:

Clean means that our ballplayers' sexual antic s DO NOT end up on Page 1 of the Chicago Tribune.

So if a student athlete is accused (not charged or convicted, accused) of sexual assault that means the program is dirty? How about if student athletes are accused of stealing (Hazel), gambling (Ammo), drugs (Mortenson) or assault (Manchild Mathews, Vander)?

As for Al, I was around then and knew many of the players. Plenty of them were solid student athletes and plenty of them were directed by the coaching staff to Horton Roe classes and other profs who were "friendly" to the program. I still have no problem with this (didn't have any problem with some of their heavy drug use either) - but I'm sure a Tribune reporter could have had a field day with it had he or she so desired.

Quote from: forgetful on March 10, 2019, 10:06:57 PM
Buzz is shady. I know of a program that routinely runs afoul of NCAA regs that considered Buzz, but decided against him because he painted too far outside the lines.

Sure. LOL.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 10, 2019, 10:34:34 PM
So if a student athlete is accused (not charged or convicted, accused) of sexual assault that means the program is dirty? How about if student athletes are accused of stealing (Hazel), gambling (Ammo), drugs (Mortenson) or assault (Manchild Mathews, Vander)?

As for Al, I was around then and knew many of the players. Plenty of them were solid student athletes and plenty of them were directed by the coaching staff to Horton Roe classes and other profs who were "friendly" to the program. I still have no problem with this (didn't have any problem with some of their heavy drug use either) - but I'm sure a Tribune reporter could have had a field day with it had he or she so desired.

I agree with what you say about Al. But it was about helping players rather than skirting rules to gain an advantage.

Quote from: rocket surgeon on March 10, 2019, 04:04:20 PM
  the problem ain't that they "partook" but that they got caught.  gotta be cool about it and maintain man...gotta maintain

The issue was Buzz thumbing his nose at university policy. 3 strikes and you're out? Not when I need a PG. Syracuse was cited in their NCAA violation report for not following their departmental policies for drug test violations. Buzz was doing the same thing.

I don't care about using weed or underage drinking, but I care about putting athletes above the law. If they get caught then face the same consequences you and I would have.

Quote from: Jockey on March 10, 2019, 11:53:52 PM
I agree with what you say about Al. But it was about helping players rather than skirting rules to gain an advantage.

Al was a great guy, no doubt about it. And sure, it was "about helping the players" - which coincidently was also about helping Al.

In the words of Bob Seeger:

She used me
And I used her
And neither one cared -
We were gettin' our share

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 10, 2019, 10:34:34 PM
So if a student athlete is accused (not charged or convicted, accused) of sexual assault that means the program is dirty? How about if student athletes are accused of stealing (Hazel), gambling (Ammo), drugs (Mortenson) or assault (Manchild Mathews, Vander)?

As for Al, I was around then and knew many of the players. Plenty of them were solid student athletes and plenty of them were directed by the coaching staff to Horton Roe classes and other profs who were "friendly" to the program. I still have no problem with this (didn't have any problem with some of their heavy drug use either) - but I'm sure a Tribune reporter could have had a field day with it had he or she so desired.

Brother Lenny,

First of all, you and I are of the same generation and yes, I knew about the drug use and "How many Hortons are in your GPA?" as well. The drug use largely was weed, which was still illegal but the players were no different than the rest of campus.

Bro, look no further than some of the problems the University of Tennessee has had with their football team. I specified sexual assault only because it made Page 1 of the Tribune. But I agree with you that assault, theft, drugs and illegal gaming also are problems Marquette should avoid. The illegal gaming, notably, is less of factor because if a player really wants to gamble, the Potowatomi are less than a mile away.

Bottom line, Sister MUDeltaForceGurl said it best -- we need to be clean and to be elite. I share our Sister Scooper's belief that we can be.

Quote from: muguru on March 10, 2019, 04:31:53 PM
+1000, he never violated any NCAA rules, and more importantly to me...he won, and won a lot. too many people freak out about some things that happened off the court..They point to that and say that was why they wanted Buzz gone...that's ridiculous. as long as NCAA rules are being followed and you win...and win as much as he did..I want him. The stupid administration ruined MU basketball because they didn't like him.

He absolutely did, he just never got caught to the point of NCAA violations being announced. Buzz routinely trampled all over academic standards for both admittance and for in season participation. He also covered for repeated player behavioral problems that should have been nipped in the bud instead of enabled.

I want a clean problem in that by and large the students do the right things when it comes to academics and societal engagement, but I'd be perfectly fine with a program that was a bag dropper. I want to see the NCAA's revenue model turned on it's head regarding paying players and the fastest way to that is to get every team dropping bags. I just want to see the current model burn.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 10, 2019, 10:34:34 PM
So if a student athlete is accused (not charged or convicted, accused) of sexual assault that means the program is dirty? How about if student athletes are accused of stealing (Hazel), gambling (Ammo), drugs (Mortenson) or assault (Manchild Mathews, Vander)?

Hazel - gone
Ammo - gone (for online poker)
Mortenson - gone (steroids)
Matthews - gone (though I never heard about an assault, it was plagiarism in English 001 that got him sent packing)
Vander - legal bills paid by MU, no consequences.

Notice the difference between coaching staffs and decisions?

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 11, 2019, 11:45:57 AM
Hazel - gone
Ammo - gone (for online poker)
Mortenson - gone (steroids)
Matthews - gone (though I never heard about an assault, it was plagiarism in English 001 that got him sent packing)
Vander - legal bills paid by MU, no consequences.

Notice the difference between coaching staffs and decisions?

Matthews was involved in a physical altercation with one of the coaches?

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 11, 2019, 11:45:57 AM
Hazel - gone
Ammo - gone (for online poker)
Mortenson - gone (steroids)
Matthews - gone (though I never heard about an assault, it was plagiarism in English 001 that got him sent packing)
Vander - legal bills paid by MU, no consequences.

Notice the difference between coaching staffs and decisions?

Frankly you should have a bigger problem with the institution.  If the 'coach' was making these decisions than the powers that be were not doing their job.

Quote from: Jockey on March 10, 2019, 11:53:52 PM
I agree with what you say about Al. But it was about helping players rather than skirting rules to gain an advantage.

Jim Chones on record saying players weren't paid. 

Quote from: muguru on March 10, 2019, 04:31:53 PM
+1000, he never violated any NCAA rules, and more importantly to me...he won, and won a lot. too many people freak out about some things that happened off the court..They point to that and say that was why they wanted Buzz gone...that's ridiculous. as long as NCAA rules are being followed and you win...and win as much as he did..I want him. The stupid administration ruined MU basketball because they didn't like him.

His staff did violate NCAA rules. 

Quote from: Nukem2 on March 11, 2019, 11:49:38 AM
Matthews was involved in a physical altercation with one of the coaches?

Not Wesley Matthews.  There was a different Matthews that IIRC never suited up for MU....

Quote from: BrewCity83 on March 11, 2019, 03:23:12 PM
Not Wesley Matthews.  There was a different Matthews that IIRC never suited up for MU....

James.   Ended up at EMU.   I think

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 11, 2019, 12:40:40 PM
His staff did violate NCAA rules.

A ride home to a recruit who missed his train - BFD.

Quote from: Nukem2 on March 11, 2019, 11:49:38 AM
Matthews was involved in a physical altercation with one of the coaches?

Punched an assistant IIRC.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 11, 2019, 03:29:56 PM
A ride home to a recruit who missed his train - BFD.

Seriously. I can't believe that was even posted

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 11, 2019, 12:39:33 PM
Jim Chones on record saying players weren't paid.

Chico - where in this thread does anyone suggest that players were paid?

Yes it matters.  I assume the nearly 20% who said no are not alumni and don't give a rip about the integrity of the school.

You can win without the extracurricular baggage

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 11, 2019, 03:29:56 PM
A ride home to a recruit who missed his train - BFD.

it was a big enough deal that the assistant coach was fired, the NCAA met with Buzz and the university had to hire BSK to do damage control with the NCAA.

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/mu-assistant-fired-williams-suspended-for-recruiting-violations-kl6k8fi-167402655.html/

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 11, 2019, 04:45:32 PM
it was a big enough deal that the assistant coach was fired, the NCAA met with Buzz and the university had to hire BSK to do damage control with the NCAA.

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/mu-assistant-fired-williams-suspended-for-recruiting-violations-kl6k8fi-167402655.html/

Which as we know means it was an egregious violation given how reasonable the NCAA is

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 11, 2019, 04:45:32 PM
it was a big enough deal that the assistant coach was fired, the NCAA met with Buzz and the university had to hire BSK to do damage control with the NCAA.

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/mu-assistant-fired-williams-suspended-for-recruiting-violations-kl6k8fi-167402655.html/

The bigger issue were the lies and coverup.  There were multiple transgressions, and the staff lied to their superiors.  CANNOT happen.  Yup, that is a BFD.  The coaches don't get to decide if a rule broken is a big deal or not, that is for the NCAA and compliance teams at each university.  They cannot lie about it when directly asked, that is an absolute cardinal sin.

Same reason why Wade is now suspended at LSU and one reason he likely will be fired, because he lied to the AD and left them exposed.

Quote from: NickelDimer on March 11, 2019, 04:47:53 PM
Which as we know means it was an egregious violation given how reasonable the NCAA is

In my 6 years working in two major athletic departments I found the NCAA is actually quite reasonable if you self report, don't break rules that we were all trained not to break, and were honest.  When people aren't honest, lazy, or flat out say the rules don't apply to them or are "minor" and not worth following.....that's when the NCAA throws reason out the door, and they are damn right to do so.   

Quote from: Cheeks on March 11, 2019, 03:43:45 PM
Yes it matters.  I assume the nearly 20% who said no are not alumni and don't give a rip about the integrity of the school.

You can win without the extracurricular baggage

This is the only correct answer.

Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 11, 2019, 11:51:19 AM
Frankly you should have a bigger problem with the institution.  If the 'coach' was making these decisions than the powers that be were not doing their job.

Well, the guy tasked with overseeing the coach did lose his job, so there's that.

Quote from: Research Report on March 10, 2019, 04:03:29 PM
Love this thread.  We just pissed away a Big East regular season title and a high seed in the Tournament, so why not try to distract people from that by reminding them what a horrible human being Buzz was when he coached here half a decade ago?

Because people can only discuss one topic at a time. It's science.

How many Chico alter egos can chime in on this thread?  I am off to the KU and IU boards to see what they have to say about their transgressions.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 11, 2019, 05:32:21 PM
How many Chico alter egos can chime in on this thread?  I am off to the KU and IU boards to see what they have to say about their transgressions.

LOL

Oh, that's right...I'm Billy, and WarriorDad, and Pakuni, and Bocephys.....etc, etc...outstanding. 

Quote from: Cheeks on March 11, 2019, 05:35:30 PM
LOL

Oh, that's right...I'm Billy, and WarriorDad, and Pakuni, and Bocephys.....etc, etc...outstanding.

What's your handle on Rock Chalk Talk so I can read up on how upfront and honest Bill Self has been with the NCAA?

Quote from: Pakuni on March 11, 2019, 05:25:18 PM
Well, the guy tasked with overseeing the coach did lose his job, so there's that.

That's what happens when the coach and major boosters take control, they push out the AD brought in to reign in the coach.

Quote from: Cheeks on March 11, 2019, 04:48:29 PM
The bigger issue were the lies and coverup.  There were multiple transgressions, and the staff lied to their superiors.  CANNOT happen.  Yup, that is a BFD.  The coaches don't get to decide if a rule broken is a big deal or not, that is for the NCAA and compliance teams at each university.  They cannot lie about it when directly asked, that is an absolute cardinal sin.

Same reason why Wade is now suspended at LSU and one reason he likely will be fired, because he lied to the AD and left them exposed.

Wade on tape offering money. Buzz assistant gives kid who missed train a ride (oh, and gave him a T shirt, so (LOL) "multiple transgressions". Yeah, they're the same - not.

Quote from: Cheeks on March 11, 2019, 05:35:30 PM
LOL

Oh, that's right...I'm Billy, and WarriorDad, and Pakuni, and Bocephys.....etc, etc...outstanding.

Nobody has said you're Bocephys. I sometimes agree and sometimes disagree with Pakuni but would NEVER accuse him of being you.

Quote from: Cheeks on March 11, 2019, 04:50:11 PM
In my 6 years working in two major athletic departments I found the NCAA is actually quite reasonable if you self report, don't break rules that we were all trained not to break, and were honest.  When people aren't honest, lazy, or flat out say the rules don't apply to them or are "minor" and not worth following.....that's when the NCAA throws reason out the door, and they are damn right to do so.

Back in the day when you were best buds with Al did you convince him how wonderful the NCAA was? LOL

I would like to see the program have a reputation for recruiting high character kids who can also play well at the High D1 level.  No reason to ever get involved with low character kids and families with their hands out . The cleaner the program the better off  and ,more successful, it will be in the long run. High quality people tend to gravitate toward each other. Throw in winning and the recruiting becomes a case of choosing who you want rather than convincing them to come to you.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 11, 2019, 05:38:43 PM
What's your handle on Rock Chalk Talk so I can read up on how upfront and honest Bill Self has been with the NCAA?

I don't post there.  Sorry, can't help you.  But if you want my opinion, Self should be fired.  Kansas given NCAA infractions and punished...I would say no tournament for two years at least, reduction of scholarships, etc.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 11, 2019, 10:21:33 PM
Wade on tape offering money. Buzz assistant gives kid who missed train a ride (oh, and gave him a T shirt, so (LOL) "multiple transgressions". Yeah, they're the same - not.

The infractions are not the same, nor did anyone say they were.  Lying about infractions, however, is where people get in trouble.  Molehills become bigger.  That was hardly all of it, however, as most know.  "Someone" talking to one of the sexual assault victims directly......yeah, not wise. 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-marquette-sex-cases-20111028-story.html

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 11, 2019, 10:31:22 PM
Back in the day when you were best buds with Al did you convince him how wonderful the NCAA was? LOL

Best buds?  Hmm, words never came out of mouth or even remotely implied....imagine you exaggerating again.  Shocking. 

I'll say this, Al had plenty of disagreements with the NCAA on a number of issues. Most are well know, but he also served as AD at Marquette and understood the benefits of the NCAA, too.  He wanted to improve it.  He also for 20 years called games on NBC and then CBS (as well as the MU basketball TV network) and provided great enjoyment, including during the tournament. He enjoyed the tournament.  It wasn't 100% anti-NCAA based on what I heard and saw.

Quote from: Cheeks on March 11, 2019, 11:22:38 PM
Best buds?  Hmm, words never came out of mouth or even remotely implied....imagine you exaggerating again.  Shocking. 

Exaggerating another person's self important exaggerations is a form of humor. Sorry it went over your head and you took it literally. Shocking.

Quote from: Cheeks on March 11, 2019, 11:22:38 PM


I'll say this, Al had plenty of disagreements with the NCAA on a number of issues. Most are well know, but he also served as AD at Marquette and understood the benefits of the NCAA, too.  He wanted to improve it.  He also for 20 years called games on NBC and then CBS (as well as the MU basketball TV network) and provided great enjoyment, including during the tournament. He enjoyed the tournament.  It wasn't 100% anti-NCAA based on what I heard and saw.

Disagreements? That's a major understatement. He couldn't stand the NCAA. Thought they were crooks who protected the powerful and went after the little guy.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 11, 2019, 10:26:02 PM
I sometimes agree and sometimes disagree with Pakuni but would NEVER accuse him of being you.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2UdX8HREZi35gA/giphy.gif)

I was accused of being Chicos once early on which is hilarious given our occasional conversations in the superbad. I think there's a group that can't understand why anyone would like or even tolerate Tom Crean, so they assume any TC apologists are Chicos.

All that being said,  WarriorDad is totally Chicos.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 12, 2019, 10:39:53 AM
I was accused of being Chicos once early on which is hilarious given our occasional conversations in the superbad. I think there's a group that can't understand why anyone would like or even tolerate Tom Crean, so they assume any TC apologists are Chicos.

All that being said,  WarriorDad is totally Chicos.

This. The people who hate Crean on here are ridiculous about it. Hes by far our third most successful coach.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 12, 2019, 10:39:53 AM
All that being said,  WarriorDad is totally Chicos.

What's a Chico's

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 12, 2019, 10:39:53 AM
I was accused of being Chicos once early on which is hilarious given our occasional conversations in the superbad. I think there's a group that can't understand why anyone would like or even tolerate Tom Crean, so they assume any TC apologists are Chicos.

All that being said,  WarriorDad is totally Chicos.

Maybe Crean is Chicos?

Quote from: Cheeks on March 11, 2019, 11:22:38 PM
Best buds?  Hmm, words never came out of mouth or even remotely implied....imagine you exaggerating again.  Shocking. 

I'll say this, Al had plenty of disagreements with the NCAA on a number of issues. Most are well know, but he also served as AD at Marquette and understood the benefits of the NCAA, too.  He wanted to improve it.  He also for 20 years called games on NBC and then CBS (as well as the MU basketball TV network) and provided great enjoyment, including during the tournament. He enjoyed the tournament.  It wasn't 100% anti-NCAA based on what I heard and saw.

Not sure what you "heard", but Al did not like the NCAA, period. Nuance all you want, but he was no fan.

I believe there was a fair deal of bravado from Al in regards to feelings on NCAA. No doubt that was not a fan, but had no problem making a bundle remaining in the game for couple of decades after coaching career ended. The NCAA was not a fan of Al, which made the situation bigger. But, bottom line, Al had no problem making a bundle calling games after coaching career ended.

Quote from: Goose on March 12, 2019, 02:24:49 PM
I believe there was a fair deal of bravado from Al in regards to feelings on NCAA. No doubt that was not a fan, but had no problem making a bundle remaining in the game for couple of decades after coaching career ended. The NCAA was not a fan of Al, which made the situation bigger. But, bottom line, Al had no problem making a bundle calling games after coaching career ended.

One has nothing to do with the other. NBC/CBS employed Al, not the NCAA. Al loved college hoops, just not the fellas who ran it. Besides, Al never missed an opportunity to make money.

Quote from: 79Warrior on March 12, 2019, 02:15:50 PM
Not sure what you "heard", but Al did not like the NCAA, period. Nuance all you want, but he was no fan.

Well I heard based on working with him.  Maybe you worked with him too, maybe into the 2000's (he died in 2001, I had the pleasure of working with him 1996-99).  There was plenty he didn't care for, but it wasn't 100 percent as you stated....period.  The NCAA is the org so many love to hate, Al was an AD and had to work as a member of that organization.  Try to make it better.  I believe he was ticked at the NCAA as it related to men's basketball, in particular the various committees.  As an AD, that doesn't mean he was universally against the mission or how it benefited track, soccer, volleyball or you name it.  He also made a ton of money on the NCAA years after he left as a member of a NCAA institution.

Absolutes are dangerous....period.   ;)

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 12, 2019, 10:39:53 AM
I was accused of being Chicos once early on which is hilarious given our occasional conversations in the superbad. I think there's a group that can't understand why anyone would like or even tolerate Tom Crean, so they assume any TC apologists are Chicos.

All that being said,  WarriorDad is totally Chicos.

LOL.  Ok, whatever you say.  You are correct on part one with TC.  Incorrect on part two.  Totally. 

79Warrior

Al loved making hay, not so sure on Al loving college hoops.

Quote from: Goose on March 12, 2019, 02:50:33 PM
79Warrior

Al loved making hay, not so sure on Al loving college hoops.

Goose,

Perhaps the coaching part. He was burned out on that. He did like doing the games on television. Ran into him several times as I was working for ABC back then and we crossed paths occassionally.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 12, 2019, 11:10:10 AM
This. The people who hate Crean on here are ridiculous about it. Hes by far our third most successful coach.

Second.  Making the Final Four elevates him.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 12, 2019, 03:35:21 PM
Second.  Making the Final Four elevates him.

Don't want to open up that debate again but point is there is a pretty big step up from Hank and O'Neil to Buzz and Crean in my opinion.

I have been spending way too much time with a bunch of North Carolina people recently.  You know, the program whose fraud was so large it basically outstripped the jurisdiction of the NCAA.  Sure there is the "I'm so ashamed" in private, but it didn't seem to adversely affect their enjoyment as their team was crushing Duke.  That table full of powder blue sweatsuit wearing NC fans were having the time of their lives rooting for their team.   I suspect that reaction would be pretty universal, all the holy card pictures on here to the contrary.

79 Warrior
Al loved the attention and the dough. If MLB paid him more he would have loved the MLB. I feel fairly confident in my feelings regarding Al.

Speaking of running a clean program. Does anyone know what this is all about:

https://marquettewire.org/4009566/sports/mens-lacrosse/mens-lacrosse-loses-third-straight-with-key-contributors-suspended/

Seems like Coach Amplo is walking the walk when it comes to running a clean program.

Quote from: Herman Cain on March 12, 2019, 10:22:16 PM
Speaking of running a clean program. Does anyone know what this is all about:

https://marquettewire.org/4009566/sports/mens-lacrosse/mens-lacrosse-loses-third-straight-with-key-contributors-suspended/

Seems like Coach Amplo is walking the walk when it comes to running a clean program.

The men's team won today at Robert Morris

Quote from: Herman Cain on March 12, 2019, 10:22:16 PM
Speaking of running a clean program. Does anyone know what this is all about:

https://marquettewire.org/4009566/sports/mens-lacrosse/mens-lacrosse-loses-third-straight-with-key-contributors-suspended/

Seems like Coach Amplo is walking the walk when it comes to running a clean program.

19 players suspended?!!

Quote from: Herman Cain on March 12, 2019, 10:22:16 PM
Speaking of running a clean program. Does anyone know what this is all about:

https://marquettewire.org/4009566/sports/mens-lacrosse/mens-lacrosse-loses-third-straight-with-key-contributors-suspended/

Seems like Coach Amplo is walking the walk when it comes to running a clean program.

I must say the Marquette Lacrosse team has quite the high impression out here.
Last week, I took my daughter to an accepted students reception for the College of Charleston in someones home in New Canaan, CT.  (She's still figuring out next year with MU at the top of list.)  One of the parents said his other kid plays lacrosse for Jacksonville St. (The Coach was a Providence Coach when he was getting recruited and he just followed him the Jacksonville.)  Marquette was his other choice.  Raved about MU as a great up-and-coming lacrosse program and that it was very tough decision for his son.

Considering members here highlighting what Pearl has done with no regard to his show cause penalty, or assistants involved in FBI probe, there is vocal minority that doesn't care if we win dirty.

Yeah, 29-40 sounds about right to me.