If I had the energy, I'd mosey on over to the vermin version of hangin at the herbie and see their heads explode over this article on MOST of the top Wisconsin ballers saying nyet to them and either coming to MU or going elsewhere...the eagle shoots down "professional reporter" Jeff Goodwin who states for a "fact" that most of the good wisco ballers shun MU for the kohl hole??
https://www.anonymouseagle.com/platform/amp/2018/11/2/18056486/marquette-golden-eagles-wisconsin-state-high-school-recruiting-prospects-jeff-goodman-big-east
Great job Sam!
I hate it when the math blows up a crap argument! ;D
That is outstanding.
Thought the same when I read the article. Glad someone took time to debunk the BS.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 03, 2018, 07:32:34 AM
If I had the energy, I'd mosey on over to the vermin version of hangin at the herbie and see their heads explode over this article on MOST of the top Wisconsin ballers saying nyet to them and either coming to MU or going elsewhere...the eagle shoots down "professional reporter" Jeff Goodwin who states for a "fact" that most of the good wisco ballers shun MU for the kohl hole??
https://www.anonymouseagle.com/platform/amp/2018/11/2/18056486/marquette-golden-eagles-wisconsin-state-high-school-recruiting-prospects-jeff-goodman-big-east
The problem you have is that Jeff Goodman was polling Big East coaches and administrators on the Big East schools positives and negatives and the quote below was from a Big East assistant and not Jeff Goodman.
The knock: "Not a ton of kids in Wisconsin, and the ones that do come out of there want to go to Wisconsin and not Marquette. Other than that, it's one of the more underrated jobs in the league ... and maybe in the entire country." – Big East assistant
Quote from: TedBaxter on November 03, 2018, 08:44:14 AM
The problem you have is that Jeff Goodman was polling Big East coaches and administrators on the Big East schools positives and negatives and the quote below was from a Big East assistant and not Jeff Goodman.
The knock: "Not a ton of kids in Wisconsin, and the ones that do come out of there want to go to Wisconsin and not Marquette. Other than that, it's one of the more underrated jobs in the league ... and maybe in the entire country." – Big East assistant
Thanks for Clarifying.
I love me some AE but that article was a WHOLE lot of words to debunk the incorrect opinion of one dude.
Quote from: TedBaxter on November 03, 2018, 08:44:14 AM
The problem you have is that Jeff Goodman was polling Big East coaches and administrators on the Big East schools positives and negatives and the quote below was from a Big East assistant and not Jeff Goodman.
The knock: "Not a ton of kids in Wisconsin, and the ones that do come out of there want to go to Wisconsin and not Marquette. Other than that, it's one of the more underrated jobs in the league ... and maybe in the entire country." – Big East assistant
IIRC the B1G version had a B1G assistant basically said the same thing about all the best players wanting to go to Wisconsin. So there is a disconnect between perception and reality.
Also, recruiting base seems to be narrowly defined as "in state." Marquette is closer to Chicago than it is to much of Wisconsin.
The current Marquette roster has 3 WI kids and 6 more from neighboring states. That tells me Marquette does a fine job recruiting in the Midwest, and can sprinkle in kids from outside of the Midwest.
Quote from: barfolomew on November 03, 2018, 09:23:45 AM
I love me some AE but that article was a WHOLE lot of words to debunk the incorrect opinion of one dude.
And makes Marquette fans seem extra sensitive.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 03, 2018, 10:18:46 AM
And makes Marquette fans seem extra sensitive.
Personally, it irritates me because it's both false and often-repeated. As I mentioned in the other thread, the reality is most elite kids don't dream of Marquette or Wisconsin, they dream of Duke or Kentucky. But when those options aren't available, they dream of the NBA and look at the best avenues of getting there.
The reality is that Marquette has proven to be a better avenue than UW-Madison and thus attracted more of the top in-state recruits. Another reality is schools like Oregon, Michigan State, Maryland, and Iowa State are better avenues than UW-Madison and have also attracted top recruits over the state school.
Wisconsin has done a great job of building a system and program. But for the most part, Bo (and now Gard) did that not by landing the top recruits in the state, they did it by identifying players who best fit their system and letting them get old. The majority of kids that grow up "dreaming of Wisconsin" are the kids that are non-D1 scholarship players and end up walking on. It isn't the top-100 kids that the article indicates.
Quote from: TedBaxter on November 03, 2018, 08:44:14 AM
The problem you have is that Jeff Goodman was polling Big East coaches and administrators on the Big East schools positives and negatives and the quote below was from a Big East assistant and not Jeff Goodman.
The knock: "Not a ton of kids in Wisconsin, and the ones that do come out of there want to go to Wisconsin and not Marquette. Other than that, it's one of the more underrated jobs in the league ... and maybe in the entire country." – Big East assistant
It's still a problem for Goodman. He didn't say it, but he used it without vetting the veracity of the statement. Good journalism is hard, that's why virtually no one practices it.
Quote from: Osiris on November 03, 2018, 11:37:19 AM
It's still a problem for Goodman. He didn't say it, but he used it without vetting the veracity of the statement. Good journalism is hard, that's why virtually no one practices it.
It's a survey. Goodman's job here is to record the results. There is nothing wrong with Goodman's reporting here.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 03, 2018, 11:52:28 AM
It's a survey. Goodman's job here is to record the results. There is nothing wrong with Goodman's reporting here.
Well, there sort of is, though. At least if you want to label what Goodman has done here as "reporting."
If he were reporting here, Goodman's job wouldn't simply be regurgitating what others tell him, especially when what he's being told can easily be proved false. His job would be to discern the truth as best he can and publish it.
Certainly we wouldn't find it acceptable if some news reporter simply transcribed incorrect statements from a political figure without checking into the veracity of it. And if said news reporter did that, we wouldn't be saying there's nothing wrong with it.
But really, Goodman isn't reporting here. He's just doing his best to fill his daily quota of content.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 03, 2018, 12:01:42 PM
Well, there sort of is, though. At least if you want to label what Goodman has done here as "reporting."
If he were reporting here, Goodman's job wouldn't simply be regurgitating what others tell him, especially when what he's being told can easily be proved false. His job would be to discern the truth as best he can and publish it.
Certainly we wouldn't find it acceptable if some news reporter simply transcribed incorrect statements from a political figure without checking into the veracity of it. And if said news reporter did that, we wouldn't be saying there's nothing wrong with it.
But really, Goodman isn't reporting here. He's just doing his best to fill his daily quota of content.
Look at the article. Other than the introduction Goodman doesn't have any of his own words here. The point of the article is to survey coaches in the conference and get their perspectives. That perspective is real. Reporting on a real perspective in the context of this article is accurate reporting.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 03, 2018, 11:52:28 AM
It's a survey. Goodman's job here is to record the results. There is nothing wrong with Goodman's reporting here.
Agreed. Repeating a quote is just that. Nothing to see here.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 03, 2018, 12:49:04 PM
Look at the article. Other than the introduction Goodman doesn't have any of his own words here. The point of the article is to survey coaches in the conference and get their perspectives. That perspective is real. Reporting on a real perspective in the context of this article is accurate reporting.
I suppose we're defining "reporting" differently.
A favorite journalism quote:
"If someone says it's raining and another person says it's dry, it's not your job as a journalist to quote them both. Your job is to look out the window. find out which is true, and report THAT."
In this case, Goodman didn't bother to look out the window. If you want to call what Goodman did generating content, that's fine. No complaints. In today's environment, and especially with an upstart like Stadium, that's necessary.
But it definitely wasn't reporting.
Yeah, it's just a puff piece re the BE.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 03, 2018, 11:52:28 AM
It's a survey. Goodman's job here is to record the results. There is nothing wrong with Goodman's reporting here.
I understand what you're saying here, TAMU. But I do think that even in a piece like this, if something is offered up that is clearly untrue, better reporting would include pointing it out. It wouldn't have taken much for Goodman to add, perhaps even parenthetically something like:
(In fact, few of the state's top players of the past decade ended up at Wisconsin, and far more ended up at Marquette.) Of course, Goodman would have had to have either known that or had reason to suspect that the assistant coach didn't know what he was talking about.
So I'm not "mad" at Goodman for not pointing out the coach's BS, but
truly good reporting would have meant not just taking a coach at his word for a "fact" that's fairly easy to verify.
I mean, if the same assistant coach had said, "DePaul's the Big East program that's really been doing well," should the reporter just let that slide because an assistant coach said it?
Isn't Goodman a Buzz cronie? Or am I thinking of someone else.
The article is about how coaches view programs. If a coach views MU's struggle as UW being the destination school for WI kids, there is absolutely nothing wrong in reporting what that coach thinks.
If we want to talk about quoting people's thoughts on the weather it'd be like writing an article about how Wisconsinites feel about the fall weather and quoting one person who says it's been a great fall and another who says it's a terrible fall. That's not bad reporting. It's reporting what someone is writing on.
The coach feels that UW makes it more difficult for MU to land the top in state talent. Goodman isn't writing on what the reality is. He's writing on what coaches think of the program.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on November 03, 2018, 02:30:13 PM
Isn't Goodman a Buzz cronie? Or am I thinking of someone else.
He was the author of the prescient "Buzz left Marquette because the new Big East will be bad" article.
Nice call, guys.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 03, 2018, 12:01:42 PM
Well, there sort of is, though. At least if you want to label what Goodman has done here as "reporting."
If he were reporting here, Goodman's job wouldn't simply be regurgitating what others tell him, especially when what he's being told can easily be proved false. His job would be to discern the truth as best he can and publish it.
Certainly we wouldn't find it acceptable if some news reporter simply transcribed incorrect statements from a political figure without checking into the veracity of it. And if said news reporter did that, we wouldn't be saying there's nothing wrong with it.
But really, Goodman isn't reporting here. He's just doing his best to fill his daily quota of content.
Precisely. Completely appropriate to include quotes on subjective matters even if they aren't widely held opinions. If the source had said, "I think MU's recruiting is dreadful." Fair game. I don't agree with that but it's not Goodman's job to weigh in on that opinion. However if the quote is a measurable statement of fact asserted by the source it's still ok to include the quote but including data demonstrating its lack of veracity would be better reporting. Best practice would have been to talk to other sources and find a more substantiated "knock" to include in the story. Admittedly that's more work and why I stand by my 'good journalism is hard' comment.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 03, 2018, 03:27:36 PM
The article is about how coaches view programs. If a coach views MU's struggle as UW being the destination school for WI kids, there is absolutely nothing wrong in reporting what that coach thinks.
If we want to talk about quoting people's thoughts on the weather it'd be like writing an article about how Wisconsinites feel about the fall weather and quoting one person who says it's been a great fall and another who says it's a terrible fall. That's not bad reporting. It's reporting what someone is writing on.
The coach feels that UW makes it more difficult for MU to land the top in state talent. Goodman isn't writing on what the reality is. He's writing on what coaches think of the program.
And yet, if an opposing coach said something like, "Marquette is not a top tier job because of the low gravity of their Moon-based home arena," it would be irresponsible of a journalist to run that quote without clarifying that it's not true. Even if it's just to say "Marquette must deal with the perception that it plays home games on the moon." Didn't we learn anything from the run-up to the Iraq war?
Quote from: THRILLHO on November 03, 2018, 05:12:08 PM
And yet, if an opposing coach said something like, "Marquette is not a top tier job because of the low gravity of their Moon-based home arena," it would be irresponsible of a journalist to run that quote without clarifying that it's not true. Even if it's just to say "Marquette must deal with the perception that it plays home games on the moon." Didn't we learn anything from the run-up to the Iraq war?
The piece isn't for accuracy. It's to share the opinion of coaches in the league. You don't go and enter your own comments on a coach's thoughts.
Not much to see here.
Quote from: Nukem2 on November 03, 2018, 01:58:03 PM
Yeah, it's just a puff piece re the BE.
Two thoughts:
1. Good that the BEast is getting such coverage, even if it's puffy.
2. We can assume that Goodman received other replies that could've been used for "the knock". He chose one, and it is inaccurate. He could've picked one that might have been less interesting, but true. That's on him, in my mind. Then again, he's generated clicks, which is probably the ultimate goal.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 03, 2018, 05:23:50 PM
The piece isn't for accuracy. It's to share the opinion of coaches in the league. You don't go and enter your own comments on a coach's thoughts.
Anyone with pretensions to being a journalist absolutely should contextualize quotes from sources that are not true. Journalism is more than stenography.
Quote from: real chili 83 on November 03, 2018, 05:37:31 PM
Not much to see here.
But everyone is soooo angry. Maybe we should all eat a honeycrisp and call it a night.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 03, 2018, 05:44:03 PM
But everyone is soooo angry. Maybe we should all eat a honeycrisp and call it a night.
unless i'm missing something, i don't sense any anger here. i think there were a lot of good observations. glad to see 82 chime in as that is/was his shtick. as for whether or not goodman practiced proper journalistic protocol/standards, that is a real loaded one.
i just thought the main premise of most wisco ballers go to UW over MU was interesting, but even more interesting was the fact that it was wrong. if one is to develop anger from this topic, well, there are other resources for that.
Quote from: THRILLHO on November 03, 2018, 05:40:14 PM
Anyone with pretensions to being a journalist absolutely should contextualize quotes from sources that are not true. Journalism is more than stenography.
But there's no commentary about any other quote. To add a note to just one or two comments is basically calling out a source who won't want to work with you again.
This article isn't meant to be a barometer for journalism in 2018. Its just a bunch of quotes from coaches. Nothing more, nothing less. No need to be so up in arms over this.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 03, 2018, 06:35:00 PM
But there's no commentary about any other quote. To add a note to just one or two comments is basically calling out a source who won't want to work with you again.
This article isn't meant to be a barometer for journalism in 2018. Its just a bunch of quotes from coaches. Nothing more, nothing less. No need to be so up in arms over this.
Exactly.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 03, 2018, 06:15:28 PM
unless i'm missing something, i don't sense any anger here. i think there were a lot of good observations. glad to see 82 chime in as that is/was his shtick. as for whether or not goodman practiced proper journalistic protocol/standards, that is a real loaded one.
i just thought the main premise of most wisco ballers go to UW over MU was interesting, but even more interesting was the fact that it was wrong. if one is to develop anger from this topic, well, there are other resources for that.
That's not what the coach said, though, and that's why this isn't a black and white good journalism vs. lazy journalism debate. The coach said that Wisconsin kids would prefer UW over WI. That doesn't mean that UW gets better in-state recruits. It means he sees evidence that the good kids in Wisconsin would rather play for UW than MU, regardless of where they end up playing. He doesn't say anything about who has been winning recruiting battles; he's just talking about preferences, which can't really be proven.
Said another way, Man A (certainly not me!) might prefer to marry Kate Upton over his current girlfriend. Does that mean he won't date anyone else? Of course not. Preference doesn't always reflect reality.
I'm not saying UW is Kate Upton and MU is some homely cheese curd eating hometown girl. I'm just trying to explain the difference between what was said and what people here seem to think was said.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 03, 2018, 08:45:04 PM
That's not what the coach said, though, and that's why this isn't a black and white good journalism vs. lazy journalism debate. The coach said that Wisconsin kids would prefer UW over WI. That doesn't mean that UW gets better in-state recruits. It means he sees evidence that the good kids in Wisconsin would rather play for UW than MU, regardless of where they end up playing. He doesn't say anything about who has been winning recruiting battles; he's just talking about preferences, which can't really be proven.
Said another way, Man A (certainly not me!) might prefer to marry Kate Upton over his current girlfriend. Does that mean he won't date anyone else? Of course not. Preference doesn't always reflect reality.
I'm not saying UW is Kate Upton and MU is some homely cheese curd eating hometown girl. I'm just trying to explain the difference between what was said and what people here seem to think was said.
Yup. The guy quoted an assistant coach telling him what was perceived to be the weakness or difficulty for Marquette. There was absolutely nothing wrong with his reporting.
The way I see it is even if UW is the preferred school from birth for Wisco kids, (which is up for debate) the fact the we've gotten the majority means that we're just purely outworking the staff at UW. Which should always be seen as a plus. Please continue this trend Wojo.
Perhaps the most bizzare thing I read was not that Wisconsin kids go to Wisconsin (they don't as a general rule) but that Georgetown was picked for second in the Big East.
Really Jeff? Who is sucking up to Patrick Ewing.
Georgetown has started on the road back to excellence. But it is in the early phases. Very early phases.
Quote from: dgies9156 on November 03, 2018, 10:02:56 PM
Perhaps the most bizzare thing I read was not that Wisconsin kids go to Wisconsin (they don't as a general rule) but that Georgetown was picked for second in the Big East.
Really Jeff? Who is sucking up to Patrick Ewing.
Georgetown has started on the road back to excellence. But it is in the early phases. Very early phases.
Where did you see Georgetown picked second?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 03, 2018, 11:59:46 PM
Where did you see Georgetown picked second?
Oops, I misunderstood the Anon Eagle. He called the MU job the third best in the BEast.
My senility is kicking in. Forgive Me, Brother TAMU, for I have committed the cardinal sin of acting before understanding. It's like that never happens in here.
Seriously, thanks for calling me out!
You all are crazy.
And this thread is why people I know that went to UW tell me that MU has little brother syndrome.
It was a quote, by an assistant coach. Yup he was wrong. Good for AE for pointing out he's wrong.
Quote from: fjm on November 04, 2018, 09:23:39 AM
And this thread is why people I know that went to UW tell me that MU has little brother syndrome.
It was a quote, by an assistant coach. Yup he was wrong. Good for AE for pointing out he's wrong.
I think you could point to the Anon Eagle story and make that assessment but this thread is really about a specific journalistic standard. MU and people's perception of it has zero to do with what most are discussing here.
Quote from: Osiris on November 04, 2018, 10:25:45 AM
I think you could point to the Anon Eagle story and make that assessment but this thread is really about a specific journalistic standard. MU and people's perception of it has zero to do with what most are discussing here.
Fair.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 03, 2018, 08:48:07 PM
Yup. The guy quoted an assistant coach telling him what was perceived to be the weakness or difficulty for Marquette. There was absolutely nothing wrong with his reporting.
I think of it this way -- he didn't transcribe what everyone told him word for word and put that on his website, did he? He had to select a quote from what he heard, and he selected a quote that is false. Pretty lazy!
Quote from: THRILLHO on November 04, 2018, 01:51:03 PM
I think of it this way -- he didn't transcribe what everyone told him word for word and put that on his website, did he? He had to select a quote from what he heard, and he selected a quote that is false. Pretty lazy!
Do you know that he had any better, more accurate quotes?
A person's opinion can't be wrong or false. The coach perceives that UW being the big in state school that kids in WI want to go to is a challenge for MU. The coach didn't say, "UW gets every kid they want in that state."
Quote from: wadesworld on November 04, 2018, 02:46:34 PM
Do you know that he had any better, more accurate quotes?
A person's opinion can't be wrong or false. The coach perceives that UW being the big in state school that kids in WI want to go to is a challenge for MU. The coach didn't say, "UW gets every kid they want in that state."
An opinion can't be wrong or false? Wut?
Regardless, this coach's comment wasn't stated as opinion, it was stated as fact.
"Not a ton of kids in Wisconsin, the ones that do come out of there want to go to Wisconsin and not Marquette."
Anyhow, what seems lost here is that professional
reporting is more than simply regurgitating quotes, regardless of their accuracy.
And this is a dumb argument.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 04, 2018, 03:34:12 PM
An opinion can't be wrong or false? Wut?
Regardless, this coach's comment wasn't stated as opinion, it was stated as fact.
"Not a ton of kids in Wisconsin, the ones that do come out of there want to go to Wisconsin and not Marquette."
Anyhow, what seems lost here is that professional reporting is more than simply regurgitating quotes, regardless of their accuracy.
And this is a dumb argument.
The point of the article was
not for the journalist to
determine the best coaching jobs in the Big East. It was to
poll coaches in the Big East to get their opinions on Big East programs. He literally writes, right before he shows the results, "This is how polling in the Big East shook out among coaches who voted, with one being the best and 10 being the worst:"
I don't know how people are struggling so much to understand this. It's pretty clear. His purpose is to report the
results of the poll. It's factually what coaches think about the jobs in the Big East, as supported by the answers coaches gave to him in the poll. It is not to provide a fact based analysis of recruiting rankings, where recruits are going, etc. He's polling coaches in their opinions. Not hard to comprehend!And no, an opinion cannot be false or wrong. It's an opinion. It might be a bad one or a good one. But it's not wrong or right.
It is my opinion that opinions can be wrong. If opinions can't be wrong, then my opinion is wrong. Which then proves that opinions can be wrong.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on November 04, 2018, 04:23:42 PM
It is my opinion that opinions can be wrong. If opinions can't be wrong, then my opinion is wrong. Which then proves that opinions can be wrong.
It proves you can have a bad opinion.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on November 04, 2018, 04:23:42 PM
It is my opinion that opinions can be wrong. If opinions can't be wrong, then my opinion is wrong. Which then proves that opinions can be wrong.
Going all Knights and Knaves on us. Nice!
Quote from: fjm on November 04, 2018, 09:23:39 AM
And this thread is why people I know that went to UW tell me that MU has little brother syndrome.
You are probably right bush gosh, I wish we would get over it.
The rodent has his virtues. But it's time we compare ourselves basketball wise to Duke, Kansas, UNC, the blue buffoon down in Kentucky etc., and not the rodent.
That will come in time.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 03, 2018, 12:49:04 PM
Look at the article. Other than the introduction Goodman doesn't have any of his own words here. The point of the article is to survey coaches in the conference and get their perspectives. That perspective is real. Reporting on a real perspective in the context of this article is accurate reporting.
A brilliant defense of false news. Unfortunately, the whole world is dumber for it.
It's not accurate, if Goodman merely regurgitates a patently false opinion without comment, it simply makes the case that Goodman cannot discern that an opinion is false.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 03, 2018, 03:27:36 PM
The article is about how coaches view programs. If a coach views MU's struggle as UW being the destination school for WI kids, there is absolutely nothing wrong in reporting what that coach thinks.
If we want to talk about quoting people's thoughts on the weather it'd be like writing an article about how Wisconsinites feel about the fall weather and quoting one person who says it's been a great fall and another who says it's a terrible fall. That's not bad reporting. It's reporting what someone is writing on.
The coach feels that UW makes it more difficult for MU to land the top in state talent. Goodman isn't writing on what the reality is. He's writing on what coaches think of the program.
When he reports the quote without comment, he is representing that that
IS the reality.
How do you not know this?
It was just a fluff article that Goodman is likely required to put out for clicks. It has no bearing on his ability as an author. It's like you guys are expecting Grantland Rice or something.
I doubt any other fan base spent more than two seconds worrying about it. But make a inaccurate comment involving UW and our insecure fan base is up in arms.
Quote from: 4everCrean on November 04, 2018, 09:43:33 PM
When he reports the quote without comment, he is representing that that IS the reality.
How do you not know this?
Because it's a poll. It's. Not. Hard. To. Understand.
The reporting Goodman is doing, and should do here, is report the responses he got from the poll.
Quote from: 4everCrean on November 04, 2018, 09:40:35 PM
A brilliant defense of false news. Unfortunately, the whole world is dumber for it.
It's not accurate, if Goodman merely regurgitates a patently false opinion without comment, it simply makes the case that Goodman cannot discern that an opinion is false.
It's not false though. It's a real perception. This article is on the perception is each coaching job. There is a real perception that in state kids grow up wanting to go to Wisconsin. If this was an article on recruiting it wouls be different.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 05, 2018, 07:05:33 AM
It's not false though. It's a real perception. This article is on the perception is each coaching job. There is a real perception that in state kids grow up wanting to go to Wisconsin. If this was an article on recruiting it wouls be different.
Yup. And there's really no way to disprove it. So yes, the AE article proves that the top in state kids end up going out of state or to Marquette more often than not, it still doesn't prove that Wisconsin recruits don't grow up wanting to play for UW over MU.
Indeed. Goodman may only be re the anonymous BE ass't coach's commentary; however...
Was it not Goodman himself who ascribed rankings based on the commentary?
So how is Goodman not essentially holding up his source material as fact by drawing a conclusion based upon it?
The more I think about it, the more I think coaches think of "top players" as 5 star recruits. Even if you include the future classes thru 2021, Wisconsin produces 7 in an 11 year period (back to 2011).
That's less than one 5 star per year. Of the four that have gone to college, one went to Marquette (Ellenson), one went to Wisconsin (Dekker), and two went out of state (Looney & Stone).
Both Looney and Stone had Wisconsin as finalists. Marquette fans think that's just a courtesy, and MU coaches are smart to move on earlier. Outsiders see that as Wisconsin having an advantage, and they think they would fair better than Ryan and Gard.
Surprised nobody picked up on the error here:
"Buzz Williams went to an Elite Eight and a pair of Sweet 16's in his final three seasons"
It seems to be omitting Buzz's final glorious run in 13-14.
So someone stated this opinion. The AE article shows that when decision day comes, this opinion comes across as the basketball equivalent of Flat Earth Society members. Feel free to defend the opinion, as long as you're comfortable with this Flat Earth view of recruiting in the state of Wisconsin.
Does someone hold this opinion? Sure. Someone who is ill-informed and not paying attention to the topic of which they speak. That said, if the biggest negative of our program is a false belief, we're in pretty good shape.
Quote from: Warrior03202011 on November 05, 2018, 09:26:46 AM
Surprised nobody picked up on the error here:
"Buzz Williams went to an Elite Eight and a pair of Sweet 16's in his final three seasons"
It seems to be omitting Buzz's final glorious run in 13-14.
I noticed that but figured it wasn't any surprise because I remembered Goodman being a buzz fanboy when he left
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 05, 2018, 09:33:18 AM
So someone stated this opinion. The AE article shows that when decision day comes, this opinion comes across as the basketball equivalent of Flat Earth Society members. Feel free to defend the opinion, as long as you're comfortable with this Flat Earth view of recruiting in the state of Wisconsin.
Does someone hold this opinion? Sure. Someone who is ill-informed and not paying attention to the topic of which they speak. That said, if the biggest negative of our program is a false belief, we're in pretty good shape.
Maybe flat earthers are just stating an opinion of something they perceive, and no opinion or perception is ever wrong.
Check and mate.
So what I'm getting from this thread is that if Scoopers were ever in charge of putting together a poll or survey they should just throw away the responses they get that do not support what they believe to be true.
Now that is some good stuff.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 05, 2018, 10:18:32 AM
So what I'm getting from this thread is that if Scoopers were ever in charge of putting together a poll or survey they should just throw away the responses they get that do not support what they believe to be true.
Now that is some good stuff.
So because you're going the Flat Earth truther route, you no longer like the discussion?
Sam didn't write this article because he didn't believe it to be true. He wrote it because it is demonstrably true that when decision day comes, this opinion completely falls apart. The assistant may hold this opinion, but reality does not play out the way his perception is presented. A reporter like Goodman should vet that. I imagine he spoke with more than one Big East assistant about Marquette and that this was not the only negative comment we received in the entirety of his interviews. And if that's the case, maybe "The Knock" he uses for Marquette shouldn't be something that is so clearly ill-informed at best.
As we are ranked in the top-5 of every other measurable category, maybe that's the case. Maybe it was hard to criticize the 5th rated "Game Atmosphere" with the new Fiserv Forum set to open. Possibly they didn't want to knock the 4th ranked "History/Tradition" since with the exception of the 1970s, we've spent the vast majority of our existence as a program where getting 2 wins in the tourney was just about our ceiling (only 2 runs deeper than that in the last 40 years). And maybe being 4th in "Media Exposure" wasn't something worth calling The Knock either since we do get our share of nationally broadcast games (which we always lose, as all Scoopers know) and always seem to be in relatively prominent exempt tournaments.
Like I said, if a provably uninformed opinion is the only negative to our program, we're probably in pretty good shape. But that doesn't mean AE is wrong, it doesn't mean the assistant that gave the opinion has any knowledge of which he speaks, and it doesn't mean that defending the perception is anything other than Basketball Flat Earth support.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 05, 2018, 10:18:32 AM
So what I'm getting from this thread is that if Scoopers were ever in charge of putting together a poll or survey they should just throw away the responses they get that do not support what they believe to be true.
Now that is some good stuff.
No, what you're not getting is that regurgitating responses of a poll without even token fact-checking is not "reporting." It's transcribing.
Again, it's fine if taken for what it is ... some easily produced clickable content that Goodman no doubt has to produce on the regular. But he's not "reporting" anything and, as a so-called college basketball insider, he probably should know that the statement doesn't really jibe with reality.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 05, 2018, 10:35:01 AM
So because you're going the Flat Earth truther route, you no longer like the discussion?
Sam didn't write this article because he didn't believe it to be true. He wrote it because it is demonstrably true that when decision day comes, this opinion completely falls apart. The assistant may hold this opinion, but reality does not play out the way his perception is presented. A reporter like Goodman should vet that. I imagine he spoke with more than one Big East assistant about Marquette and that this was not the only negative comment we received in the entirety of his interviews. And if that's the case, maybe "The Knock" he uses for Marquette shouldn't be something that is so clearly ill-informed at best.
As we are ranked in the top-5 of every other measurable category, maybe that's the case. Maybe it was hard to criticize the 5th rated "Game Atmosphere" with the new Fiserv Forum set to open. Possibly they didn't want to knock the 4th ranked "History/Tradition" since with the exception of the 1970s, we've spent the vast majority of our existence as a program where getting 2 wins in the tourney was just about our ceiling (only 2 runs deeper than that in the last 40 years). And maybe being 4th in "Media Exposure" wasn't something worth calling The Knock either since we do get our share of nationally broadcast games (which we always lose, as all Scoopers know) and always seem to be in relatively prominent exempt tournaments.
Like I said, if a provably uninformed opinion is the only negative to our program, we're probably in pretty good shape. But that doesn't mean AE is wrong, it doesn't mean the assistant that gave the opinion has any knowledge of which he speaks, and it doesn't mean that defending the perception is anything other than Basketball Flat Earth support.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 05, 2018, 10:41:15 AM
No, what you're not getting is that regurgitating responses of a poll without even token fact-checking is not "reporting." It's transcribing.
Again, it's fine if taken for what it is ... some easily produced clickable content that Goodman no doubt has to produce on the regular. But he's not "reporting" anything and, as a so-called college basketball insider, he probably should know that the statement doesn't really jibe with reality.
The AE article does not disprove that most kids within the state of Wisconsin grow up wanting to play for UW.
Does you working at whatever organization/company you work at PROVE that, given the opportunity to work at any organization/company in the world, you would choose the one you are currently at?
Quote from: Pakuni on November 05, 2018, 10:41:15 AM
No, what you're not getting is that regurgitating responses of a poll without even token fact-checking is not "reporting." It's transcribing.
Again, it's fine if taken for what it is ... some easily produced clickable content that Goodman no doubt has to produce on the regular. But he's not "reporting" anything and, as a so-called college basketball insider, he probably should know that the statement doesn't really jibe with reality.
The author literally lays that out for his reader. "This is how polling in the Big East shook out among coaches who voted, with one being the best and 10 being the worst:" It obviously pushed a lot of posters' buttons. That's really on the readers, not on the author. The author told the readers
exactly what he was doing. If they don't want to see that and want some further analysis or thoughts, then don't read the piece. Simple as that.
To be honest, I'd much rather see the unedited thoughts of the actual coaches within the Big East than the analysis of a journalist. I can find those any time. Seeing unedited thoughts of coaches within the conference? That's something you don't get very often and much more interesting, to me anyway.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 05, 2018, 10:35:01 AM
Like I said, if a provably uninformed opinion is the only negative to our program, we're probably in pretty good shape. But that doesn't mean AE is wrong, it doesn't mean the assistant that gave the opinion has any knowledge of which he speaks, and it doesn't mean that defending the perception is anything other than Basketball Flat Earth support.
As has been pointed out, but apparently still ignored, the quote isn't about where Wisconsin kids go to school. It's about where Wisconsin kids
want to go to school, who they have on their final list. There also isn't a qualifier for kids from WI that stay in WI; that was added here on Scoop. So what this coach (who I am going to assume is a tiny bit more qualified to speak on the topic of Big East recruiting than any of us, given that it's his job) is saying is different than what people continue to bicker about.
What was said - rephrased: Good kids from WI tend to rank UW as more desirable than MU when making their final decision, even if they end up playing for Duke or Maryland or Kentucky.
What was not said but seems to be inferred from the Scoop community: WI kids tend to choose UW over MU
Hopefully this helps to clear things up. (although I doubt that it will)
I'm of the opinion (and I disagree that opinions can't be wrong) that Goodman wrote the article he intended to write and that AE took the opinion of some BE assistant coach and debunked it using facts. The only place I disagree with AE is that Goodman was ignorant to allow this "incorrect opinion" to be published.
This wasn't intended to be an analytical piece where a basketball "expert" broke down the strengths and weaknesses of each team in order to create some ranking. It was a fluff piece talking about how the big east coaching staffs perceive the coaching jobs in the big east. Whether those perceptions were right or wrong is irrelevant to Goodman, he's simply reporting the perceptions. Both articles were fine.
PLEASE let the season start soon!
Quote from: wadesworld on November 05, 2018, 10:48:52 AM
The AE article does not disprove that most kids within the state of Wisconsin grow up wanting to play for UW.
No, it just proves that when given the chance to go to Wisconsin (Herro, Looney, Joey Hauser, Stone, etc. all had Wisconsin offers), they choose to go elsewhere.
Quote
Does you working at whatever organization/company you work at PROVE that, given the opportunity to work at any organization/company in the world, you would choose the one you are currently at?
So your argument now is that even though the top kids
want to play for Wisconsin and have offers to play for Wisconsin, they choose to go elsewhere?
Makes sense.
Like I said, this argument is dumb.
The assistant coach Goodman quoted is wrong, and calling what Goodman did here "reporting" also is wrong.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 05, 2018, 10:55:56 AM
As has been pointed out, but apparently still ignored, the quote isn't about where Wisconsin kids go to school. It's about where Wisconsin kids want to go to school, who they have on their final list. There also isn't a qualifier for kids from WI that stay in WI; that was added here on Scoop. So what this coach (who I am going to assume is a tiny bit more qualified to speak on the topic of Big East recruiting than any of us, given that it's his job) is saying is different than what people continue to bicker about.
What was said - rephrased: Good kids from WI tend to rank UW as more desirable than MU when making their final decision, even if they end up playing for Duke or Maryland or Kentucky.
What was not said but seems to be inferred from the Scoop community: WI kids tend to choose UW over MU
Hopefully this helps to clear things up. (although I doubt that it will)
This.
Let's imagine that said assistant talked to Herro, Tokoto, Looney and Stone and they all said "if I was going to stick around here I'd head to UW" then that would mean that this assistants opinion I based off his experience and has some merit to it. Even if the data behind commitments doesn't back up that opinion.
As one who used to do for a living what Goodman does now, I'm sticking with exactly what I said earlier:
So I'm not "mad" at Goodman for not pointing out the coach's BS, but truly good reporting would have meant not just taking a coach at his word for a "fact" that's fairly easy to verify.
There are articles about political polls pretty much daily now. It would not represent "activist journalism" for the author of such a piece to handle something this way:
The poll showed that 48% of Party X said they would not vote for Candidate Y because he is from Africa. (In fact, Candidate Y was born in the United States, not Africa.)
Making sure the readers know the facts not only is good journalism, but necessary journalism IMHO.
On the other hand, I wouldn't approve of this:
The poll showed that 48% of Party X said they would not vote for Candidate Z because he is stupid. (In fact, Candidate Z is not stupid.)
"Stupid" is an opinion. Candidate Y's birthplace is a fact.
Goodman had facts at his disposal and chose to ignore them -- or, if we want to give him the benefit of the doubt (and maybe he deserves just that), what the assistant coach said didn't register as potentially false, so Goodman felt no need to verify it.
But to come out and say it's either wrong or unnecessary to point out a fact in an article about a poll ... that's silliness.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 05, 2018, 10:55:56 AM
As has been pointed out, but apparently still ignored, the quote isn't about where Wisconsin kids go to school. It's about where Wisconsin kids want to go to school, who they have on their final list. There also isn't a qualifier for kids from WI that stay in WI; that was added here on Scoop. So what this coach (who I am going to assume is a tiny bit more qualified to speak on the topic of Big East recruiting than any of us, given that it's his job) is saying is different than what people continue to bicker about.
What was said - rephrased: Good kids from WI tend to rank UW as more desirable than MU when making their final decision, even if they end up playing for Duke or Maryland or Kentucky.
What was not said but seems to be inferred from the Scoop community: WI kids tend to choose UW over MU
Hopefully this helps to clear things up. (although I doubt that it will)
So, basically, if one re-contextualizes what the coach said and fills in some blanks by assuming what he might have meant to say (as opposed to just dealing what he actually said), then the quote might have some validity.
The fact one has to jump through such hoops to make sense of the quote simply proves it was shoddy reporting by Goodman, no?
Lie MU82, I'm not at all offended by what Goodman did here. I'm offended that some of you consider it reporting.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 05, 2018, 11:24:45 AM
So, basically, if one re-contextualizes what the coach said and fills in some blanks by assuming what he might have meant to say (as opposed to just dealing what he actually said), then the quote might have some validity.
The fact one has to jump through such hoops to make sense of the quote simply proves it was shoddy reporting by Goodman, no?
Lie MU82, I'm not at all offended by what Goodman did here. I'm offended that some of you consider it reporting.
That's actually completely backwards. What was actually said has nothing - I repeat,
nothing - to do with commitments or LOIs or about which state they actually end up playing in. Those things were brought up here by Scoopers.
Also, can we drop the whole pretense of being offended by such bad journalism? That's not the issue here, and anyone (MU82 aside) who is saying the issue is with Goodman's lack of effort is just lying to themselves.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 05, 2018, 11:34:57 AM
Also, can we drop the whole pretense of being offended by such bad journalism? That's not the issue here, and anyone (MU82 aside) who is saying the issue is with Goodman's lack of effort is just lying to themselves.
Your reading comprehension is off today. I have no problem with Goodman's lack of effort. I've
defended Goodman's lack of effort. My problem is with those who think he "reported" this story.
And don't assume that MU82 is the only one here with insight into the profession.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 05, 2018, 11:34:57 AM
That's actually completely backwards. What was actually said has nothing - I repeat, nothing - to do with commitments or LOIs or about which state they actually end up playing in. Those things were brought up here by Scoopers.
This. If the coach said Wisconsin gets more kids from Wisconsin it works have been false. That's not what the coach said but what some seem to be inferring.
I'll add something else. Wisconsin is the state school. If you polled all the kids in the state a vast majority would say they would pick Wisconsin over Marquette. That's not even a question. If you don't think that is a hurdle that Wojo has to get over when recruiting Wisconsin kids you are crazy. I think if you checked the Hausers closet in middle school you probably would have found a lot more red than blue and gold.
Just because these kids grew up wanting to go to Madison doesnt mean that they actually will. If anything, the quote is a compliment to Wojo (and Buzz') recruiting ability. Despite many of these kids being Badger fans from birth they have convinced a lot of the top ones that Marquette is the better place for them.
I would like to point out that the assistant in question also called MU one of the more underrated jobs in the league, if not the country. Let's remember the article is very complimentary of Marquette.