Breaking right now on ESPN. Teams that violated include, Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, Michigan ST.North Carolina, Texas and USC. ESPN saying possible suspensions happening as soon as this weekend.
This will effect the NCAA Tournament.
Quote from: Mu2323 on February 23, 2018, 07:45:48 AM
Breaking right now on ESPN. Teams that violated include, Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, Michigan ST.North Carolina, Texas and USC. ESPN saying possible suspensions happening as soon as this weekend.
This will effect the NCAA Tournament.
Highly skeptical anything will happen to top end programs this year if ever. A lot of the purported violations can be denied by the schools as it appears it was just between the player and agent or agent and parents.
Also, there's a thread about this below.
I'm somehow missing the other thread involved.
If any of these top end programs sense the gig is up when it comes to specific players receiving benefits why wouldn't they immediately suspend the play in question so that the team doesn't go down with them? As you said the school will argue it was between people outside of the school, the team itself may not get punished, but certainly any success the team has while the player is still on the team would eventually get nullified.
Interesting Day thread
Players could potentially be decommitting soon if their school gets a suspension
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 23, 2018, 08:09:58 AM
Highly skeptical anything will happen to top end programs this year if ever. A lot of the purported violations can be denied by the schools as it appears it was just between the player and agent or agent and parents.
Also, there's a thread about this below.
Extremely skeptical anything will happen this year. Every school involved will claim zero knowledge of any of this (See Xavier's statement), and go through an extended legal process and appeals process.
This will rock the college basketball world and rightfully so. Where is the best place to get news about this? ESPN is such a vested player in the schools and conferences, they cannot be trusted as an unbiased source of true news in this issue.
It will be nauseating to hear Bilas, Greenberg, Vital, etc. defend these coaches "who are the real victims". I suspect ESPN will champion DUKE, UNC, Texas, Kansas and Michigan State all getting a free pass to the Elite Eight for suffering through this.
As frustrating as the past few years have been at times being an MU fan, I am so very happy I am not an MSU alum. I used to really like Tom Izzo and I now I think he is a complete scum bag. Not only the way he runs his program but his comments about the the Nasser issue; "I hope they got the right guy" or words to that effect after all those brave women and girls testified was deplorable. (sorry for going a little off topic)
Some others hit a little closer to home. Isaiah Whitehead reportedly received $37,657. Edmond Sumner received at least $7,000 while in school. Diamond Stone received $14,303. Justin Patton met with Christian Dawkins from ASM Sports.
This makes me wonder a lot about how deep this goes and whether it not it might impact us. I know it's easiest to assume we are clean, but wouldn't most expect Seton Hall, Xavier, and Creighton are clean? Maybe the schools didn't know about any of this, but maybe they did. And what about Wisconsin? I suppose they'll excuse this as "that's why he went to Maryland" but the truth could easily be "we were outbid by Maryland."
What about Seton Hall and Whitehead makes you assume they would be clean? I read that and thought "yep".
Creighton surprised me. Xavier I didn't expect but wasn't surprised. Seton Hall? Duh.
I don't see anything happening to schools this season... But maybe some schools will suspend involved players in hopes that they won't have any possible tournament runs vacated in the future.
Quote from: LAMUfan on February 23, 2018, 09:52:24 AM
What about Seton Hall and Whitehead makes you assume they would be clean? I read that and thought "yep".
+1.
Only Creighton surprised me and all I've seen for that was a dinner
X when I saw it was Sumner...not surprised
Seton Hall lol
To play devil's advocate, why shouldn't players be allowed to negotiate with and take money from agents against future earnings? As long as the money isn't coming from schools or players aren't being steered to particular programs, where's the harm?
Other than, of course, to the NCAA's phony and hypocritical stance on amateurism?
Quote from: Pakuni on February 23, 2018, 10:06:42 AM
To play devil's advocate, why shouldn't players be allowed to negotiate with and take money from agents against future earnings? As long as the money isn't coming from schools or players aren't being steered to particular programs, where's the harm?
Other than, of course, to the NCAA's phony and hypocritical stance on amateurism?
Supposedly some were steered into programs.
Quote from: Newsdreams on February 23, 2018, 10:46:19 AM
Supposedly some were steered into programs.
Nothing in today's report says that.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 23, 2018, 09:37:11 AM
Some others hit a little closer to home. Isaiah Whitehead reportedly received $37,657. Edmond Sumner received at least $7,000 while in school. Diamond Stone received $14,303. Justin Patton met with Christian Dawkins from ASM Sports.
This makes me wonder a lot about how deep this goes and whether it not it might impact us. I know it's easiest to assume we are clean, but wouldn't most expect Seton Hall, Xavier, and Creighton are clean? Maybe the schools didn't know about any of this, but maybe they did. And what about Wisconsin? I suppose they'll excuse this as "that's why he went to Maryland" but the truth could easily be "we were outbid by Maryland."
We haven't had any NBA talent/prospects in years (other than Henry) so why would an agency want to meet with our players?
As far as Henry, if I recall he signed with Jay Z's agency so he probably never met with ASM.
I do love how none of these guys even signed with ASM. Lots of money being thrown around and no ROI
Quote from: swoopem on February 23, 2018, 11:19:41 AM
We haven't had any NBA talent/prospects in years (other than Henry) so why would an agency want to meet with our players?
As far as Henry, if I recall he signed with Jay Z's agency so he probably never met with ASM.
I do love how none of these guys even signed with ASM. Lots of money being thrown around and no ROI
DJ Newbill is on the list and he never had any NBA prospects. Remember that professional basketball is played around the world, players received 6-7 figures in the equivalent of US dollars around the world, and agents can take advantage of that around the world. Juan Anderson is playing professionally in Mexico. Luke Fischer is playing professionally in Spain. Jajuan Johnson is playing professionally in Germany. I'm sure all of them have agents.
as long as all the other students are privy to the same, right?
Quote from: Pakuni on February 23, 2018, 10:58:38 AM
Nothing in today's report says that.
Previous reports when first guilty pleas were revealed. Some parents were given money to steer their sons to certain schools, and there is speculation that there were agreements between some assistants and the agents.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 23, 2018, 11:24:39 AM
DJ Newbill is on the list and he never had any NBA prospects. Remember that professional basketball is played around the world, players received 6-7 figures in the equivalent of US dollars around the world, and agents can take advantage of that around the world. Juan Anderson is playing professionally in Mexico. Luke Fischer is playing professionally in Spain. Jajuan Johnson is playing professionally in Germany. I'm sure all of them have agents.
Thought he left the team came back home
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 23, 2018, 11:24:39 AM
DJ Newbill is on the list and he never had any NBA prospects.
So...maybe Newbill didn't get "Newbilled". Maybe he got a chance to get paid and couldn't get MU to buck up?
Quote from: BrewCity83 on February 23, 2018, 01:37:13 PM
So...maybe Newbill didn't get "Newbilled". Maybe he got a chance to get paid and couldn't get MU to buck up?
Seems to be a $2,000 loan on a balance sheet on 12/31/15, and another note "paying back July 2017". Could have been just to help cover his upfront expenses as he was turning pro. They seem to not be able to determine if it even occurred prior to his graduation at Penn State, since they didn't list the school.
For some of the loan items listed in the report, are loans illegal or against NCAA violations if they are related to a player going pro? For example, I doubt that it would be illegal if a player signed with an agent and took a loan of $5K to cover expenses related to travel and training leading up to a combine. How else would some of these guys be able to afford that? I can see how the NCAA may prohibit that, but a lot of guys won't care because they're on short time with the NCAA by that point anyway.
Quote from: Newsdreams on February 23, 2018, 01:28:01 PM
Thought he left the team came back home
He may well have, just illustrating that players under Wojo have turned pro since he got here and there is money to be made for non-NBA guys and their agents.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 23, 2018, 02:48:54 PM
He may well have, just illustrating that players under Wojo have turned pro since he got here and there is money to be made for non-NBA guys and their agents.
That would be correct.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 23, 2018, 01:50:12 PM
For some of the loan items listed in the report, are loans illegal or against NCAA violations if they are related to a player going pro? For example, I doubt that it would be illegal if a player signed with an agent and took a loan of $5K to cover expenses related to travel and training leading up to a combine. How else would some of these guys be able to afford that? I can see how the NCAA may prohibit that, but a lot of guys won't care because they're on short time with the NCAA by that point anyway.
There is a lot more to it than that. And they would be ineligible to play college basketball if they enter into any type of deal with an agent. I mean just because they call it a "loan" guy still an agent.
Quote from: Mu2323 on February 23, 2018, 07:45:48 AM
Breaking right now on ESPN. Teams that violated include, Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, Michigan ST.North Carolina, Texas and USC. ESPN saying possible suspensions happening as soon as this weekend.
This will effect the NCAA Tournament.
North Carolina? Which directional NC school is getting whacked for this?
Quote from: Newsdreams on February 23, 2018, 03:06:25 PM
There is a lot more to it than that. And they would be ineligible to play college basketball if they enter into any type of deal with an agent. I mean just because they call it a "loan" guy still an agent.
I get the ineligibility part, but if a guy has already declared, and is planning to hire an agent, why would they care about eligibility? For example, if Rowsey got a loan this year in April, would it be illegal? It doesn't matter at all if it's against NCAA regulations to him, because he's done anyway. I'm wondering more about the legality.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 23, 2018, 04:39:09 PM
I get the ineligibility part, but if a guy has already declared, and is planning to hire an agent, why would they care about eligibility? For example, if Rowsey got a loan this year in April, would it be illegal? It doesn't matter at all if it's against NCAA regulations to him, because he's done anyway. I'm wondering more about the legality.
What you are describing is perfectly legal.
It's OK to snigger regarding X & the Hall, but what did St. Jay know about Lowry's dealings?
Everyone's running for the weeds...
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/schools-implicated-federal-documents-rush-distance-andy-miller-192441806.html
So Diamond was paid
Mark Turgeon denies contact with agency that reportedly made illegal payments to Diamond Stone
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/terrapins-insider/wp/2018/02/23/mark-turgeon-denies-contact-with-agency-that-reportedly-made-illegal-payments-to-diamond-stone/?utm_term=.7b44890caf4c
Maryland men's basketball Coach Mark Turgeon on Friday denied having any contact with the sports agency that was alleged in a news report to have made more than $14,000 in illegal payments to former Terrapins center Diamond Stone.
Let's go back in the time machine ...
April 15, 2015
The Baltimore Sun
Diamond Stone's father details why his son decided to play at Maryland
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bal-diamond-stone-decision-to-play-at-maryland-20150415-story.html
While Robert Stone said Wednesday that he and his wife, Cynthia, were impressed with the diversity of the student body in College Park as well as the proximity of the campus to thriving African-American communities, the presentation played a big role for their son, ranked the No. 2 high school center in the country.
"All these schools have great trainers, great training facilities," Robert Stone said in a telephone interview. "Maryland showed what they did to get Alex where he was and what he became. It was visual to him, it wasn't a coach or a strength and conditioning coach telling him. They showed us actual workouts with Alex. I think that stuck with him and the intensity of the workouts. To me, that was a big point."
Robert Stone said he liked the region in general and the proximity to Washington.
"Eight miles to the most powerful city in the world," he said. "That's a very progressive area. I was looking at it as opportunities, if he was lucky enough to make the pros and got some money, I just felt there was more opportunity out there. With the blacks on the East Coast, it's a different sophistication than it is here in Wisconsin.
"I wanted him to see a more progressive African-American community. If he's going to have all this money, he's going to have to be a progressive person."
The elder Stone is aware that his son is being mentioned as a possible lottery pick in the 2016 NBA draft, as high as No. 4 overall according to DraftExpress.com. He said that the discussion of being a "one and done" has not even been talked about as a family.
"We have never sat down and had a serious discussion about one and done," Robert Stone said. "We have never talked about the pros and cons. That is not what we're about. We're about Diamond being successful, being successful as a person. All these projections don't mean anything. I have a saying that I use, 'Men make plans and God just laughs.' That's my philosophy.
--------
So is this now been shown to be a bunch of garbage? It was not about black studies, it was about green studies. "Progressive" is code for people that have checkbooks and "Power City" is code for rich white guys with money looking to make Maryland a winner?
Quote from: Tugg Speedman on February 23, 2018, 05:53:00 PM
So Diamond was paid
Mark Turgeon denies contact with agency that reportedly made illegal payments to Diamond Stone
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/terrapins-insider/wp/2018/02/23/mark-turgeon-denies-contact-with-agency-that-reportedly-made-illegal-payments-to-diamond-stone/?utm_term=.7b44890caf4c
Maryland men's basketball Coach Mark Turgeon on Friday denied having any contact with the sports agency that was alleged in a news report to have made more than $14,000 in illegal payments to former Terrapins center Diamond Stone.
Let's go back in the time machine ...
April 15, 2015
The Baltimore Sun
Diamond Stone's father details why his son decided to play at Maryland
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bal-diamond-stone-decision-to-play-at-maryland-20150415-story.html
While Robert Stone said Wednesday that he and his wife, Cynthia, were impressed with the diversity of the student body in College Park as well as the proximity of the campus to thriving African-American communities, the presentation played a big role for their son, ranked the No. 2 high school center in the country.
"All these schools have great trainers, great training facilities," Robert Stone said in a telephone interview. "Maryland showed what they did to get Alex where he was and what he became. It was visual to him, it wasn't a coach or a strength and conditioning coach telling him. They showed us actual workouts with Alex. I think that stuck with him and the intensity of the workouts. To me, that was a big point."
Robert Stone said he liked the region in general and the proximity to Washington.
"Eight miles to the most powerful city in the world," he said. "That's a very progressive area. I was looking at it as opportunities, if he was lucky enough to make the pros and got some money, I just felt there was more opportunity out there. With the blacks on the East Coast, it's a different sophistication than it is here in Wisconsin.
"I wanted him to see a more progressive African-American community. If he's going to have all this money, he's going to have to be a progressive person."
The elder Stone is aware that his son is being mentioned as a possible lottery pick in the 2016 NBA draft, as high as No. 4 overall according to DraftExpress.com. He said that the discussion of being a "one and done" has not even been talked about as a family.
"We have never sat down and had a serious discussion about one and done," Robert Stone said. "We have never talked about the pros and cons. That is not what we're about. We're about Diamond being successful, being successful as a person. All these projections don't mean anything. I have a saying that I use, 'Men make plans and God just laughs.' That's my philosophy.
--------
So is this now been shown to be a bunch of garbage? It was not about black studies, it was about green studies. "Progressive" is code for people that have checkbooks and "Power City" is code for rich white guys with money looking to make Maryland a winner?
Weird dog whistle.
Anyway, there's no correlation. Like others have said, agency/agent may have given Stone money. But that doesn't mean it had anything to do with Maryland.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 23, 2018, 06:10:26 PM
Weird dog whistle.
Anyway, there's no correlation. Like others have said, agency/agent may have given Stone money. But that doesn't mean it had anything to do with Maryland.
I did not say Maryland knew. I agree they probably did not.
I'm saying all the reasons cited for going to Maryland was not what Dad said, it was about illegal money.
And speaking of money, Diamond is bouncing around the D-League and is at serious risk of being out basketball in the US soon.
How's his Spanish?
I think most people thought that Stone went to Maryland for reasons other than what he stated.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 23, 2018, 06:15:51 PM
I think most people thought that Stone went to Maryland for reasons other than what he stated.
I don't think anything has happened to change those thoughts, either.
Quote from: Tugg Speedman on February 23, 2018, 06:13:32 PM
I did not say Maryland knew. I agree they probably did not.
I'm saying all the reasons cited for going to Maryland was not what Dad said, it was about illegal money.
And speaking of money, Diamond is bouncing around the D-League and is at serious risk of being out basketball in the US soon.
How's his Spanish?
Why would he go to Maryland just because of the money from the agent?
Do we know he couldn't have selected Wisconsin and still gotten the money?
Feels like a bit of a stretch to say he only went to Maryland because of the money. Not even a stretch. There's no evidence
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 23, 2018, 07:25:38 PM
Why would he go to Maryland just because of the money from the agent?
Do we know he couldn't have selected Wisconsin and still gotten the money?
Feels like a bit of a stretch to say he only went to Maryland because of the money. Not even a stretch. There's no evidence
Not a stretch that to think he waited until April of his senior year to announce because he was holding out for the highest bidder. In fact, it is reasonable.
Quote from: Tugg Speedman on February 23, 2018, 07:28:14 PM
Not a stretch that to think he waited until April of his senior year to announce because he was holding out for the highest bidder. In fact, it is reasonable.
So you're assuming a connection between his taking money contingent upon going to Maryland. But why Maryland? Why would the agent/firm tell him the money is conditional on that school?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 23, 2018, 05:12:16 PM
Everyone's running for the weeds...
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/schools-implicated-federal-documents-rush-distance-andy-miller-192441806.html
nobody knows nothin, ein'a?
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 23, 2018, 07:32:14 PM
So you're assuming a connection between his taking money contingent upon going to Maryland. But why Maryland? Why would the agent/firm tell him the money is conditional on that school?
Who knows, but is naive to think they gave him money with no stipulations on where to go to school.
Quote from: Tugg Speedman on February 23, 2018, 07:39:43 PM
Who knows, but is naive to think they gave him money with no stipulations on where to go to school.
What if the stipulation was purely just giving them first access as agents when he turns pro?
I don't have the answer. You seem to be implying you've connected dots. Dots that may or may not be there
Sean Miller...Oh boy
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22559284/sean-miller-arizona-christian-dawkins-discussed-payment-ensure-deandre-ayton-signing-according-fbi-investigation (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22559284/sean-miller-arizona-christian-dawkins-discussed-payment-ensure-deandre-ayton-signing-according-fbi-investigation)
He is SCREEEEWED. Woops. Bye Sean. Enjoy unromploykent.
Hahahahaha Sean Miller might be the biggest loser to ever coach
Seriously, guy can't even properly cheat
No Final 4s and gets wire tapped??
Scrub
Quote from: muguru on February 23, 2018, 09:13:23 PM
Sean Miller...Oh boy
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22559284/sean-miller-arizona-christian-dawkins-discussed-payment-ensure-deandre-ayton-signing-according-fbi-investigation (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22559284/sean-miller-arizona-christian-dawkins-discussed-payment-ensure-deandre-ayton-signing-according-fbi-investigation)
If the NCAA allows Arizona and Ayton to play in the tournament, that is a big problem.
Quote from: forgetful on February 23, 2018, 09:36:31 PM
If the NCAA allows Arizona and Ayton to play in the tournament, that is a big problem.
Richardson and Miller both at Xavier prior to Arizona. Could get messy for the Musketeers, too.
Quote from: forgetful on February 23, 2018, 09:36:31 PM
If the NCAA allows Arizona and Ayton to play in the tournament, that is a big problem.
Why? Don't these things have to be hashed out either legally by the feds or through committee by the NCAA? Those both take time. I would estimate more than 2-3 months.
Are there examples of recruiting violations resulting in immediate punishment?
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 23, 2018, 09:48:31 PM
Why? Don't these things have to be hashed out either legally by the feds or through committee by the NCAA? Those both take time. I would estimate more than 2-3 months.
Are there examples of recruiting violations resulting in immediate punishment?
Because there is a recording of him soliciting payment for a player. Case closed.
If you let him play and them go to the tournament, and then punish them later it accomplishes nothing. They already got what they wanted out of Ayton, and Ayton got what he wanted out of Arizona.
You punish random other people.
Without Ayton (should have been ineligible) and Trier (PED use) they wouldn't be making the NCAA tournament, they are in right now, because they cheated. If you let them in, despite knowing they cheated, they prove that it is better to cheat than to play fair.
Quote from: forgetful on February 23, 2018, 09:51:46 PM
Because there is a recording of him soliciting payment for a player. Case closed.
If you let him play and them go to the tournament, and then punish them later it accomplishes nothing. They already got what they wanted out of Ayton, and Ayton got what he wanted out of Arizona.
You punish random other people.
Without Ayton (should have been ineligible) and Trier (PED use) they wouldn't be making the NCAA tournament, they are in right now, because they cheated. If you let them in, despite knowing they cheated, they prove that it is better to cheat than to play fair.
I understand your point. And understand the situation.
I'm just looking at what the NCAA has done in the past.
They let the OSU football guys play in their bowl game, for example.
Sean Miller, RIP.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 23, 2018, 09:58:42 PM
I understand your point. And understand the situation.
I'm just looking at what the NCAA has done in the past.
They let the OSU football guys play in their bowl game, for example.
Got it, we're on the same page.
My statement on "that is a big problem," is my interpretation to the fallout when they inevitably do nothing (as they have done in the past).
Then again, maybe it will not be a big problem. We as a society have a way to find corruption and immoral actions perfectly fine if the results benefit us...sad.
3,000 hours of wiretaps on Dawkins!!!
Crean = Squirmy
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 23, 2018, 10:44:17 PM
Crean = Squirmy
Say that two more times and Chicos will appear.
The two threads should probably be merged.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 23, 2018, 07:32:14 PM
So you're assuming a connection between his taking money contingent upon going to Maryland. But why Maryland? Why would the agent/firm tell him the money is conditional on that school?
I would've always assumed the Under Armour tie, as Stone played for an Under Armour AAU program and Maryland is an Under Armour school. That said, Wisconsin did transition to Under Armour around the time Stone was being recruited.
Quote from: MUDish on February 23, 2018, 11:00:31 PM
The two threads should probably be merged.
Probably, once topper closes down the Muskego Arby's, he'll fix it.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 23, 2018, 11:08:10 PM
I would've always assumed the Under Armour tie, as Stone played for an Under Armour AAU program and Maryland is an Under Armour school. That said, Wisconsin did transition to Under Armour around the time Stone was being recruited.
Agree on under armour. But that seems unrelated (for now) to the agent stuff
Quote from: MUDish on February 23, 2018, 11:00:31 PM
The two threads should probably be merged.
Agree. You'd have to be Sybil to keep up....
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 23, 2018, 11:12:13 PM
Agree on under armour. But that seems unrelated (for now) to the agent stuff
I have a feeling the "for now" is the most important point. We know Louisville used a shoe company to get money to Bowen, looks like Arizona used an agent for Ayton. No reason to think both weren't going on at other schools, and I'm sure some players were smart enough to get paid more than once.
I'll be honest, I'm worried about this. I can't assume Marquette is clean just because we don't know any better or just because it's my alma mater. We did land a McDonald's All-American. We have had a ton of 4-star recruits. There are things that give me some solace, like Marquette getting out on a certain 5-star kid from Milwaukee very early in the recruiting process, but according to Matt Norlander, Tom Crean said on record something to the effect of 'I wasn't involved in that stuff, but it would be naive for me to think it wasn't going on around me.'
Like him or hate him, Crean has about as clean a reputation as one can have. I suppose on the public front, Izzo does too. But Crean acknowledging that there may have been things going on behind the scenes and the release of Dwayne Stephens' name (ties to both Crean & Izzo) sure does make one wonder.
The kids at Marathon Oil and Athletes in Action have to be pumped at their potential 1 seeds in the tournament.
Quote from: MUDish on February 23, 2018, 11:29:11 PM
The kids at Marathon Oil and Athletes in Action have to be pumped at their potential 1 seeds in the tournament.
For sure. The whole CBB landscape is ripe with BS. Miller is toast at UA and more to follow.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 23, 2018, 04:39:09 PM
I get the ineligibility part, but if a guy has already declared, and is planning to hire an agent, why would they care about eligibility? For example, if Rowsey got a loan this year in April, would it be illegal? It doesn't matter at all if it's against NCAA regulations to him, because he's done anyway. I'm wondering more about the legality.
That is different once he declares and gets into any transaction with an agent it is not illigal but he becomes ineligible per NCAA rules if he has not completed his eligibility.
If the information gathered is just from the last three years (the initial scope of the investigation), I'm not worried in the slightest. If there is anything, it will be of the "Henry got a meal paid for by Jay Z after he finished playing basketball for us" variety.
Quote from: MUDish on February 23, 2018, 11:29:11 PM
The kids at Marathon Oil and Athletes in Action have to be pumped at their potential 1 seeds in the tournament.
👍🤔😂👍
Arizona should do their investigation, pull themselves out of the tournament and fire Miller for cause.
But seriously the economics involved is making a mockery of the quest for amateurism. Time to evolve.
I think the affects a few individuals but would be shocked if this affects broad swaths of schools. Big time CBball isn't going away - maybe will change a little bit the blue bloods aren't losing their b-ball programs.
Also if pervasive I wonder how many individuals this really sticks to. I mean it looks bad for Miller because he is second. But if he is one of 10, 20, 30? For him the more implicated the better now.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 23, 2018, 08:17:51 PM
What if the stipulation was purely just giving them first access as agents when he turns pro?
I don't have the answer. You seem to be implying you've connected dots. Dots that may or may not be there
you're assuming he was given $14k and told to have fun and do whatever as long as you call me when you're ready to go pro.
So let me quote that famous philosopher jesmu84 back at you ...
You [also] seem to be implying you've connected dots. Dots that may or may not be thereMy position that the money came with stipulations, like attending Maryland, is less of a stretch than yours That it came with no stipulations.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 23, 2018, 07:32:14 PM
So you're assuming a connection between his taking money contingent upon going to Maryland. But why Maryland? Why would the agent/firm tell him the money is conditional on that school?
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 23, 2018, 11:08:10 PM
I would've always assumed the Under Armour tie, as Stone played for an Under Armour AAU program and Maryland is an Under Armour school. That said, Wisconsin did transition to Under Armour around the time Stone was being recruited.
Maryland is not just an under Armour school... it's CEO Kevin Plank is an alum of Maryland and the single largest donor to Maryland,with nearly all his money going to athletics. Only Phil Knight (CEO of Nike) support of Oregon (alum) is larger.
In under Armour's world, the top of the mountain is Maryland, just like Oregon is the top of the Nike world.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 23, 2018, 11:21:09 PM
I have a feeling the "for now" is the most important point. We know Louisville used a shoe company to get money to Bowen, looks like Arizona used an agent for Ayton. No reason to think both weren't going on at other schools, and I'm sure some players were smart enough to get paid more than once.
I'll be honest, I'm worried about this. I can't assume Marquette is clean just because we don't know any better or just because it's my alma mater. We did land a McDonald's All-American. We have had a ton of 4-star recruits. There are things that give me some solace, like Marquette getting out on a certain 5-star kid from Milwaukee very early in the recruiting process, but according to Matt Norlander, Tom Crean said on record something to the effect of 'I wasn't involved in that stuff, but it would be naive for me to think it wasn't going on around me.'
Like him or hate him, Crean has about as clean a reputation as one can have. I suppose on the public front, Izzo does too. But Crean acknowledging that there may have been things going on behind the scenes and the release of Dwayne Stephens' name (ties to both Crean & Izzo) sure does make one wonder.
I agree. Let's not be naive.: "As the head basketball coach at the University of Arizona, I recognize my responsibility is not only to establish a culture of success on the basketball court and in the classroom, but as important, to promote and reinforce a culture of compliance," Miller said.
I think Blue Chips is a lock to win best documentary film at the Oscars tomorrow.
Quote from: forgetful on February 23, 2018, 09:51:46 PM
Because there is a recording of him soliciting payment for a player. Case closed.
If you let him play and them go to the tournament, and then punish them later it accomplishes nothing. They already got what they wanted out of Ayton, and Ayton got what he wanted out of Arizona.
You punish random other people.
Without Ayton (should have been ineligible) and Trier (PED use) they wouldn't be making the NCAA tournament, they are in right now, because they cheated. If you let them in, despite knowing they cheated, they prove that it is better to cheat than to play fair.
Due process is due process.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 24, 2018, 07:08:04 AM
Due process is due process.
True, and it could very well apply to the NCAA (a private entity) because it appears to be acting in concert with the FBI (a government entity).
That said, there is nothing to prevent AZ from choosing to impose a voluntary ban. And if you look at the AZ message boards, the fans generally seem to be on board with that....
Quote from: Tugg Speedman on February 24, 2018, 05:07:37 AM
you're assuming he was given $14k and told to have fun and do whatever as long as you call me when you're ready to go pro.
So let me quote that famous philosopher jesmu84 back at you ...
You [also] seem to be implying you've connected dots. Dots that may or may not be there
My position that the money came with stipulations, like attending Maryland, is less of a stretch than yours That it came with no stipulations.
I don't know if you even read my posts..
I literally said I don't have the answer. I was putting forth another possible scenario. As an example of why your scenario is not the only possible one.
And, my hypothetical position absolutely came with stipulations.
You're not very good at reading. Or not good at comprehending. Or are willfully misrepresenting what I said to strengthen your position. Not sure which...
Quote from: #bansultan on February 24, 2018, 03:42:42 AM
Arizona should do their investigation, pull themselves out of the tournament and fire Miller for cause.
Miller is a shrewd cat, his contract calls for him to get most of his salary even if he gets fired for cause.
Geez I long for the old days when the Big 10 gave kids Ford Bronco's and smaller schools gave Camaro's and others gave shoes and t-shirts. That was simple, easy, clear. I give you a car, you come play for me. Now there are so many parties involved with shoe companies and pro agents and fixers and ...
Crazy.
Quote from: MUDish on February 24, 2018, 06:18:19 AM
I think Blue Chips is a lock to win best documentary film at the Oscars tomorrow.
You are winning this thread, (although the Ocsars are on 3/4).
I think the bigger story to all of this is, what's the FBI's end game? Is this ultimately a take down of the amateurism charade?
Quote from: 79Warrior on February 24, 2018, 09:37:54 AM
Miller is a shrewd cat, his contract calls for him to get most of his salary even if he gets fired for cause.
Will probably still face some type of fraud argument, but if that's true, you really have to wonder what Arizona knew they were getting into, and didn't care.
Quote from: 79Warrior on February 24, 2018, 09:37:54 AM
Miller is a shrewd cat, his contract calls for him to get most of his salary even if he gets fired for cause.
Lawyers will get most of it
Maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but what is so complicated about this college basketball fiasco? I understand fans of the schools that have been implicated are going to throw out wild defenses and take the conversation in completely different directions. And we all knew Bilas was going to blame the NCAA and not the coaches once Duke and other ACC schools where involved. But I've read and heard some others in the past day or so spin this in some really strange ways. To me it it comes down to two basic facts:
1) The FBI and federal prosecutors are involved because federal crimes have been committed. Whether you like it or not that they are involved or that you don't like the laws of the United States is irrelevant right now. This is very serious stuff and people will be paying fines, going on probation or going to jail. The debate of if people like the FBI and DoJ doing the job they are asked to do can be had later, but let's not disparage agencies for enforcing the laws of the United States. Also, make no mistake, DoJ's conviction rate is over 90%, so they don't do these sort of investigations/prosecutions for practice.
2) The FBI's investigation has reveled NCAA violations. The schools, coaches and players must face the penalties for the violations. They knew the rules and willfully violated them. Many in the media are trying to be smart and clever now and are calling out the NCAA rules as 'out dated' or that 'this is going on all over college basketball' and the NCAA is to blame for this problem. I think there should be a good, thoughtful review of NCAA rules, but that does not change the fact that Arizona, Texas, MSU, USC, etc. and said coaches and players knowingly broke the rules to gain an advantage over the other member institutions and they must be penalized. Will their actions be deemed violations five years from now? I have no idea, but it does not matter in 2018.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 24, 2018, 03:50:23 AM
But seriously the economics involved is making a mockery of the quest for amateurism. Time to evolve.
A fair solution that I think would be supported by most sides is to call athletics "works study" and treat them as they would any other on campus work-study worker. Same pay, same 20-hour a week cap.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on February 24, 2018, 11:00:01 AM
Maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but what is so complicated about this college basketball fiasco? I understand fans of the schools that have been implicated are going to throw out wild defenses and take the conversation in completely different directions. And we all knew Bilas was going to blame the NCAA and not the coaches once Duke and other ACC schools where involved. But I've read and heard some others in the past day or so spin this in some really strange ways. To me it it comes down to two basic facts:
1) The FBI and federal prosecutors are involved because federal crimes have been committed. Whether you like it or not that they are involved or that you don't like the laws of the United States is irrelevant right now. This is very serious stuff and people will be paying fines, going on probation or going to jail. The debate of if people like the FBI and DoJ doing the job they are asked to do can be had later, but let's not disparage agencies for enforcing the laws of the United States. Also, make no mistake, DoJ's conviction rate is over 90%, so they don't do these sort of investigations/prosecutions for practice.
2) The FBI's investigation has reveled NCAA violations. The schools, coaches and players must face the penalties for the violations. They knew the rules and willfully violated them. Many in the media are trying to be smart and clever now and are calling out the NCAA rules as 'out dated' or that 'this is going on all over college basketball' and the NCAA is to blame for this problem. I think there should be a good, thoughtful review of NCAA rules, but that does not change the fact that Arizona, Texas, MSU, USC, etc. and said coaches and players knowingly broke the rules to gain an advantage over the other member institutions and they must be penalized. Will their actions be deemed violations five years from now? I have no idea, but it does not matter in 2018.
I don't think it's quite so complicated.
But I like this post
Good thing a third thread was started for the topic, hey?
Agreed on all of it. It involves a billion dollar organization (NCAA) and a number of multi million dollar organizations (shoe companies). When that kind of money is involved and there is bribery going on, the FBI is going to rightfully be involved.
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 24, 2018, 10:36:26 AM
You are winning this thread, (although the Ocsars are on 3/4).
I think the bigger story to all of this is, what's the FBI's end game? Is this ultimately a take down of the amateurism charade?
Ahh, you're right. I messed up that date.